On Wednesday's New Day, CNN's Chris Cuomo refreshingly pressed Univision's Jorge Ramos over his Tuesday face-off with Donald Trump. Cuomo noted that Trump's "point is, it wasn't a question – it was a comment. You wanted to get into a fight with him." Ramos played up that "this is very important for the Hispanic community; and this is personal...we're talking about...destroying the lives of millions of people." The CNN anchor later spotlighted how Ramos insulted Trump as "the face of hate and division," and pointed out that Ramos's daughter "works for Hillary Clinton." [video below]
Cuomo led his ten-minute interview of Ramos by highlighting the "claim that this was a stunt; that you knew that you were out of turn there, and you were asking for this kind of provocation." He asked, "Is that a fair assessment?" The Univision journalist immediately went on the attack against Trump: "It is not. The one who is out of line is Donald Trump." He continued with his account of what happened.
The CNN anchor followed up by noting that "it's his press conference. He runs the rules. You jumped the queue." Ramos repeatedly denied that this was the case. Cuomo then played a clip of Trump from earlier in the morning on NBC's Today, where the Republican presidential candidate slammed the Hispanic journalist as "ranting and raving like a madman....He was totally, absolutely out of line." He added Trump's point that "it wasn't a question – it was a comment. You wanted to get into a fight with him, and you got your fight."
When Ramos replied with his "this is personal" and "destroying the lives of millions of people" statements, the New Day host pointed out the Univision anchor's past attacks on Trump. This led to extended exchange between the two journalists:
CHRIS CUOMO: Well, he certainly doesn't like to be tested – many politicians don't. But, in fairness, you are making comments and asking questions. You've said in the past that he's the face of hatred in America. When he said, I only want to deport illegals, not all immigrants, you said no human is illegal. And you understand that when someone comes in here and they don't have proper paperwork, that means they're illegal in any country. Those are points of view. They're not questions. Are you making this too personal?
JORGE RAMOS, CHICAGO UNIVISION NEWS ANCHOR: RAMOS: Well, first of all, it cannot be too personal, because no human being is illegal, and words – words are important-
CUOMO: But I don't understand what that means, Jorge. Of course, human beings can be illegal if they break the law. I don't understand what your point is. Your point is about human dignity – why are you making it that way?
RAMOS: The fact is that, as a reporter, I believe you have to take a stand, Chris, when it comes to racism, discrimination, corruption, public lies, dictatorship, and human rights. The best of journalism that we've seen, and that you've seen, Chris, is always when reporters take a stand in front of those who are in power. And I think the most important social responsibility, as a reporters, is to prevent and denounce the abuse of those who are in power. That's when you see the best journalism. That's what happened with Watergate, with Edward R. Murrow. We've seen it plenty of times.
So, as reporters, I don't think it's – that you have to sit down because Donald Trump tells you to sit down. You have to ask the question. And it is not that I'm advocating specific ideas. Of course, I'm an immigrant. Of course, I believe that if he wants to deport 11 million people, can you imagine – just – just lift up for a moment – can you imagine what that would mean? He would have to bring the army. Imagine the human rights violations that that would provoke. Is that the kind of country that we want? So, I believe honestly, as – as reporters, we have to take a stand, and that's what I think I did yesterday.
CUOMO: Well, you did, but there's a line – right? I mean – and that's what's going to drive the controversy here, is when you're asking comments versus making questions (sic); when you are advocating a position versus testing somebody else's; people are going to look at you now; they're going to see what you've said about him in the past – which is not [a] typical journalist's description – saying he's the face of hate and division in America. You have a daughter, I believe, who works for Hillary Clinton. People are going to say you have a disposition on this issue, and you don't like Donald Trump, and you're attacking him.
RAMOS: No. What – what people are going to say is that – I think we're going – I am being transparent as a journalist; and that, again, as a journalist, I am absolutely convinced that many times, you have to take a stand. Now, when somebody says, Chris, that he wants to deport 11 million men, women, and children; when he says he wants to deny citizenship to children born here in the United States – which, by the way, are U.S. citizens just like he is – he is creating division; he is creating hatred; and we have to call him out on that.
Cuomo then admitted that "I often walk the line between advocacy journalism and what people see as traditional journalism. I get it, and I understand what you're motivated by. And I think a lot of people are motivated the same way. But it does go to a side of an issue here." He continued by noting that "you've got other major candidates who are saying the same things – that all illegals must go; we have to figure out how. You have other candidates who are saying that the 14th Amendment should change; that birthright citizenship either isn't properly construed in the Constitution currently, or it should be changed. It's not just him. Why target him?" Ramos responded by continuing his offensive against Trump:
RAMOS: Well, because, first of all, he's leading the polls. First of all, his language – I'm absolutely convinced – it is dangerous. And his ideas are extreme. None of the candidates are espousing the ideas that he has expressed in the last few days. It is – it is extreme what he's saying – what he's saying about immigrants in this country. It is extreme what he's saying about children being born in this country and denying citizenship. It is extreme, Chris, and I'm completely convinced of that. That – that somebody says he wants to build a wall. Is that true – that he wants to build a wall – a 1,900-mile wall between Mexico and the United States? And with those extreme ideas, that would have an immediate and terrible impact on millions of people; that would project a terrible, negative image of the United States in the world.
And then, as journalists, are we supposed to sit down because he says so? This is not his country. This is our country, too. And I think, again, as journalists, it is our responsibility to do that. And also the problem, Chris, is that if we don't do that, it seems that other candidates aren't doing it, for many different reasons. But if our job is not to ask questions, then what it is (sic)?
Near the end of the segment, the Univision anchor played up that "the fact that I was brought back – the fact that I was brought back to the press conference signaled that he made a mistake." Cuomo countered that "he would say it was him being inclusive; and that as long as you follow the rules, you come back in. And that's why he said, it's good to have you back; and he wound up taking you on – which a lot of candidates wouldn't have done. So you can look at that two ways."
The full transcript of Chris Cuomo's interview of Univision's Jorge Ramos from Wednesday's New Day:
CHRIS CUOMO: We have Univision anchor Jorge Ramos joining us by the phone now. My friend, are you with us?
JORGE RAMOS, CHICAGO UNIVISION NEWS ANCHOR (via phone): I am here. Thanks for inviting me.
CUOMO: It is good to have you. I want to hear your side on this. The claim that this was a stunt; that you knew that you were out of turn there, and you were asking for this kind of provocation. Is that a fair assessment?
RAMOS: It is not. The one who is out of line is Donald Trump. What happened is that – you know how it is in the press conferences – there were two reporters before me who asked their question; and then, it was my turn. So I said, I have a question on immigration. I stood up. He didn't say anything. So I kept on asking my question, and I confronted him on the fact that he wants to deport 11 million and build the wall and deny citizenship.
Obviously, he didn't like my question. So when he realized that he didn't like my question, and when he realized what was going on, he tried to stop me, and asked another reporter to ask a question. At the point, I told him that, as a U.S. citizen, as an immigrant, and as a reporter, I had the right to ask a question. He said no. He told me to go back to Univision-
CUOMO: Right-
RAMOS: And then, I just kept on asking my question. He signaled to his security people. And, at that point, because – let's remember: this is Donald Trump's press conference-
CUOMO: Right-
RAMOS: He was in control. He signaled his security people, who threw me out of the press conference. It's the first time in my life that this has happened.
CUOMO: Right. But, like, as you said – as you said, Jorge – I mean, it's his press conference. He runs the rules. You jumped the queue, and – you know, sometimes – I've never seen this happen-
RAMOS: I didn't – I didn't – I didn't jump the queue-
CUOMO: Well, he didn't call on you for a question. He didn't call on you-
RAMOS: Two reporters asked a question; and then – and then, it was – was my turn. No. He didn't – he didn't have to call on everyone, Chris. And you know how it is at those press conferences-
CUOMO: Oh, I know. I totally do. But usually, when you're not called on to ask a question, usually, the other reporters yell at you.
I just want you to hear what he said about it this morning on the 'Today' show, and get your reaction.
RAMOS: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN 1: And you know why those cameras are all red lighted?
DONALD TRUMP (audio from interview on NBC's Today): I was not out of line last night. I was asking and being asked a question from another reporter. I would have gotten to him very quickly. And he stood up and started ranting and raving like a madman. And frankly, he was out of line, and most people – in fact, most newspaper reports said I handled it very well. He was totally, absolutely out of line.
CUOMO: His point is, it wasn't a question – it was a comment. You wanted to get into a fight with him, and you got your fight.
RAMOS: No. I – I want to have an interview with Donald Trump, and I wanted to have an interview with Donald Trump. Up to a point which – a few weeks ago, I sent him a handwritten note with my cell phone on it. And instead of responding, he published, on the Internet, my – my cell phone.
So, he hasn't been giving us answers. And this is very important for the Hispanic community; and this is personal. So we're talking about the lives – destroying the lives of millions of people, if his plan goes ahead. So, instead of waiting – and you never wait, Chris – instead of waiting, I decided to come to Iowa and ask him the questions that he didn't want to answer. And that's precisely what I did. I think, as reporters, our responsibility is to ask questions; and he hasn't answered those questions. So, we just have to go with wherever the news is. And, in this case, I felt that it was not only my – my duty, but I had to ask those questions-
CUOMO: Right-
RAMOS: He didn't like the question. That's why he threw me out.
CUOMO: Well, he certainly doesn't like to be tested – many politicians don't. But, in fairness, you are making comments and asking questions. You've said in the past that he's the face of hatred in America. When he said, I only want to deport illegals, not all immigrants, you said no human is illegal. And you understand that when someone comes in here and they don't have proper paperwork, that means they're illegal in any country. Those are points of view. They're not questions. Are you making this too personal?
RAMOS: Well, first of all, it cannot be too personal, because no human being is illegal, and words – words are important-
CUOMO: But I don't understand what that means, Jorge. Of course, human beings can be illegal if they break the law. I don't understand what your point is. Your point is about human dignity – why are you making it that way?
RAMOS: The fact is that, as a reporter, I believe you have to take a stand, Chris, when it comes to racism, discrimination, corruption, public lies, dictatorship, and human rights. The best of journalism that we've seen, and that you've seen, Chris, is always when reporters take a stand in front of those who are in power. And I think the most important social responsibility, as a reporters, is to prevent and denounce the abuse of those who are in power. That's when you see the best journalism. That's what happened with Watergate, with Edward R. Murrow. We've seen it plenty of times.
So, as reporters, I don't think it's – that you have to sit down because Donald Trump tells you to sit down. You have to ask the question. And it is not that I'm advocating specific ideas. Of course, I'm an immigrant. Of course, I believe that if he wants to deport 11 million people, can you imagine – just – just lift up for a moment – can you imagine what that would mean? He would have to bring the army. Imagine the human rights violations that that would provoke. Is that the kind of country that we want? So, I believe honestly, as – as reporters, we have to take a stand, and that's what I think I did yesterday.
CUOMO: Well, you did, but there's a line – right? I mean – and that's what's going to drive the controversy here, is when you're asking comments versus making questions (sic); when you are advocating a position versus testing somebody else's; people are going to look at you now; they're going to see what you've said about him in the past – which is not [a] typical journalist's description – saying he's the face of hate and division in America. You have a daughter, I believe, who works for Hillary Clinton. People are going to say you have a disposition on this issue, and you don't like Donald Trump, and you're attacking him.
RAMOS: No. What – what people are going to say is that – I think we're going – I am being transparent as a journalist; and that, again, as a journalist, I am absolutely convinced that many times, you have to take a stand. Now, when somebody says, Chris, that he wants to deport 11 million men, women, and children; when he says he wants to deny citizenship to children born here in the United States – which, by the way, are U.S. citizens just like he is – he is creating division; he is creating hatred; and we have to call him out on that-
CUOMO: I understand. But he's not the only one. He's not the only one, though, Jorge. He's not the only one. Look, I hear what you're saying. I often walk the line between advocacy journalism and what people see as traditional journalism. I get it, and I understand what you're motivated by. And I think a lot of people are motivated the same way. But it does go to a side of an issue here. You have a lot of his party who agree with him – and that's why he's come out of nowhere to be on top of the polls, in part. You've got other major candidates who are saying the same things – that all illegals must go; we have to figure out how. You have other candidates who are saying that the 14th Amendment should change; that birthright citizenship either isn't properly construed in the Constitution currently, or it should be changed. It's not just him. Why target him?
RAMOS: Well, because, first of all, he's leading the polls. First of all, his language – I'm absolutely convinced – it is dangerous. And his ideas are extreme. None of the candidates are espousing the ideas that he has expressed in the last few days. It is – it is extreme what he's saying – what he's saying about immigrants in this country. It is extreme what he's saying about children being born in this country and denying citizenship. It is extreme, Chris, and I'm completely convinced of that. That – that somebody says he wants to build a wall. Is that true – that he wants to build a wall – a 1,900-mile wall between Mexico and the United States? And with those extreme ideas, that would have an immediate and terrible impact on millions of people; that would project a terrible, negative image of the United States in the world.
And then, as journalists, are we supposed to sit down because he says so? This is not his country. This is our country, too. And I think, again, as journalists, it is our responsibility to do that. And also the problem, Chris, is that if we don't do that, it seems that other candidates aren't doing it, for many different reasons. But if our job is not to ask questions, then what it is (sic)?
CUOMO: I understand that. The criticism is going to be that you created a situation that you knew would bring about this controversy; and give you a platform to make your points. But you know what? I welcome you on the show to make your points, and I respect you as a journalist, and I respect you in general. So-
RAMOS: Thanks. And let me just say that-
CUOMO: Please – make a final point; and then, we'll leave it there.
RAMOS: The fact that I was brought back – the fact that I was brought back to the press conference signaled that he made a mistake. Otherwise, why would he had-
CUOMO: Well, he says that – I don't think that he would say it's a mistake. I think that he would say it was him being inclusive; and that as long as you follow the rules, you come back in. And that's why he said, it's good to have you back; and he wound up taking you on – which a lot of candidates wouldn't have done. So you can look at that two ways.
RAMOS: It's very simple to – to finalize this. I've asked for an interview. He has given interviews to a lot of people – including you. (Cuomo laughs) So he can give me an interview; and then, we can have a conversation. But, for some reason, he has spoken to everyone, but he's afraid to talk to us.
CUOMO: And look, I used to say the same thing. He didn't come on 'New Day,' and there's definitely – when you see people where he's on TV more, it seems to be that there's a treatment that he gets in those places that has him on more. But, in truth, he did have you back on. He had the conversation. I don't know that you're going to get a sitdown out of this. It will be interesting to see what happens. But Jorge Ramos, you're always welcome here on New Day. I wish you good luck going forward. It's good to hear your voice.
RAMOS: Thank you, Chris. See you.
