NPR typically hates everything about Fox News, so it was shocking when snobby Weekend Edition Saturday host Scott Simon interviewed Fox late-night host Greg Gutfeld. It's much more typical for NPR to toss roses at Stephen Colbert when he's selling a new cookbook on non-commercial radio. Oh, and then add a 45-minute Fresh Air interview on top of that. Ka-ching!
Simon began by noting the ratings: "Greg Gutfeld dominates late-night comedy. His show, Gutfeld!, on Fox, airs an hour earlier than his rivals but has a larger audience than those of Colbert, Kimmel, Fallon or The Daily Show."
Then he noted the ideology, unlike Colbert. He has "conservative comics" on his show, and engages in "insult conservatism." (Please recall all the insult liberalism all over late night -- not to mention all over NPR shows like Wait! Wait! Don't Tell Me!...like when they insulted Fox's Peter Doocy.)
SCOTT SIMON: I bet you've read and heard some of the labels applied to your comedy -- insult conservatism, mean, provocative. Do you want to give us another label? What do you think of those?
GREG GUTFELD: Fun. It's fun. Anytime somebody describes something as mean, it's because it doesn't align with their beliefs, and they're kind of upset about it, but also, they kind of wish that they had the freedom to say it as well. I take it as a badge of honor if somebody says that I'm being mean, and I'm just having fun.
They noted he mocked Volodymyr Zelensky for having a "Napoleon complex," and he joked about how this was fun because he himself is short.
Then Simon started running clips of Gutfeld! that fit "insult conservatism," apparently. For example, "According to a new survey, nearly 10% of U.S. adults identify as LGBTQ. The other 90% identify as who gives a [expletive]." Gutfeld explained:
GUTFELD: What I meant to get at is that nobody cares. I actually have a very serious, I guess, philosophy about identity politics. I think it's a terrible thing to lead with. I am all for being an individual. And when you start talking about these characteristics that define you, it's actually not defining you at all. And you can see the misery on people's faces who kind of buy into identity politics.
Then Simon played an Asian-drivers joke, which he said was "trafficking in identity humor." This spurred a contentious conversation:
SIMON: I got to play another clip view of you, to you, again, though.
GUTFELD: Sure.
SIMON: 'Cause there's something I read and - I saw the other day in which you were trafficking in identity humor, if that's what it is, yourself. Let's play that clip.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GUTFELD!")
GUTFELD: A large number of Asian voters in San Francisco have announced they are walking away from the Democratic Party. Well, thank God, they're not driving away, or we'd all be in danger.
(CHEERING)
GUTFELD: Applauding a racist? You're terrible (laughter).
Yes. There you go, huh? That's a terrible joke, Scott. A terrible joke...
SIMON: Honesty...
GUTFELD: ...Which is why it's couched...
SIMON: ...I think it is. Yeah.
GUTFELD: ...Yeah - why it was couched as something a racist would say. And I disown that, so what more can you say?
SIMON: Wait. Let me get this straight. You disown the joke that you just said?
GUTFELD: Yeah. Didn't you hear it? I said it was a racist...
SIMON: Yeah, of course I did.
GUTFELD: ...A racist would say that. Keep up, Scott (laughter).
SIMON: Well, I'm...
GUTFELD: See, this is what's great, is I'm explaining - I have to explain this show to you, which is actually more entertaining to me than anything. It's like, I don't find this funny at all. That's the point. You need to get outside your bubble, Scott. Have...
SIMON: Well...
GUTFELD: ...Some fun.
SIMON: But I mean, we began the conversation...
GUTFELD: (Laughter).
SIMON: ...By you saying, you know, that your humor was about fun.
GUTFELD: And it is.
SIMON: I mean, a racist joke?
GUTFELD: If you don't find it fun, that's OK. Scott, it's all right if you don't...
SIMON: What I...
GUTFELD: ...Like it.
SIMON: I have a peculiar...
GUTFELD: It's OK.
SIMON: ...Sense of humor, so don't judge anything by me.
GUTFELD: (Laughter).
SIMON: But I...
GUTFELD: What did you say? I'm sorry. I missed it. I missed what you said at the moment.
SIMON: I said I have a peculiar sense of humor, so don't judge the success...
GUTFELD: (Laughter).
SIMON: ...You're having by me, OK? But I just - I got to tell you I found that joke racist.
GUTFELD: Well, that's why I said a racist would say. So we're in agreement, Scott. It's funny. I'm trying to explain this to you (laughter).
SIMON: All right.
GUTFELD: Didn't you - maybe you didn't hear that part. Did you hear the part?
SIMON: Oh, I did hear...
GUTFELD: Did you hear that part where I said...
SIMON: ...I did hear that part but just saying that it's racist doesn't mean it's OK to tell.
GUTFELD: Oh, so it's not OK to tell something?
SIMON: Constitutionally, I would defend your right. But...
GUTFELD: Thank you so much. I appreciate that.
SIMON: But in terms of - God forbid - taste, decency - decency. Let's even forget taste - decency.
GUTFELD: Yeah. Some things - you know what? Some things you're not going to like. In fact, I'm certain there are many things in my show you're not going to like. Yeah. That's your right. And there are a lot of jokes that just aren't funny to some people. But to other people, they are funny. Those make me laugh. And they make me laugh because I'm pointing out how upsetting it is to people like you. Even when I point it out, it's still upsetting to you. I find that funny. It's a meta joke, if you will.
SIMON: People like me?
GUTFELD: (Laughter).
SIMON: There you go with that...
GUTFELD: Yes.
SIMON: ...Identity stuff again.
GUTFELD: Exactly. You NPR, kale-sniffing vegetarians. I'm joking. I actually like kale.
The discussion concluded with Gutfeld making a very serious point about the power of the leftist media.
SIMON: Let me ask you one more question. You're always punching left and not punching up at powerful people.
GUTFELD: Ooh, that's an interesting point. You said, I'm always punching left, not up at powerful people.
SIMON: Well, powerful people...
GUTFELD: So you're insinuating...
SIMON: ...Powerful at the moment. Powerful people...
GUTFELD: Well, let's put it this way. The most powerful people are in the media. They've controlled the megaphone for years. They're 95% left wing. That is my target, and it will always be my target. I'm interested in the people that manipulate the narrative. That is all I'm going for. I actually don't even give crap about politicians because they are just interchangeable. I'm more interested in the people that try to brainwash us every day. And I think everybody - because of the rise of the internet and social media - has become an expert in media because finally something was written about them.
And for millions of people, it was Trump supporters. Trump supporters were being written about, and they're like, I'm not a racist. I'll go out of my way to help people. If your car's pulled over on the side of the road, I'm the guy that's going to change the tire. Why am I called a white supremacist? So you see that that is what I'm going for, which is that we've - in this day and age, and a lot of credit to Trump for calling out fake news. We have seen behind the curtain. We see how the sausage is made. And boy, there's some ugly stuff in that sausage, Scott -- making me think about, you know, going vegetarian.
NPR would never ask Colbert about how under Biden he was just "punching right, not up at powerful people."
