PBS may have officially jumped the shark on Monday’s Amanpour and Company as guest host Sara Sidner welcomed author James Crawford to discuss his new book The Edge of the Plain and lament borders are tools of nationalism and, when the United States seeks to combat illegal immigration, even fascism.
Towards the end of their discussion, Sidner showed not only a poor understanding of recent history, but current international politics, “You talk about globalization versus nationalism as well. And you say that today there are more borders in the world than ever before in human history. So, do you think that this idea of nationalism and ultra-nationalism that is spreading across much of the West for certain and some of the East, do you think that is one of the reasons why we're seeing these borders go up in such a significant way?”
There are more borders because there are more countries, mostly as a result of decolonization and decommunization. These newly independent states, many of which are in the East, are very protective of their new independence. It is why Ukraine continues to resist and why other countries support it.
Crawford, however, naturally agreed with Sidner:
You know, you can see it very prominently in the United States, you know, with Mr. Trump[’s] administration. If you pour national identity into a line, which is what we have done, you know, as I said, that creation of this modern system of bordering led to the creation of nation-states, so, effectively led to nationalism. And there are so many instances where nationalism, identity is exerted by the drawing of these lines and the establishment of these lines.
Crawford then offered up his own hot historical takes. Ignoring how European nationalism was largely born out of the French Revolution and subsequent resistance to Napoleon, Crawford suggested it was more about anti-immigrant nostalgia and fascism:
Particularly for Western countries who feel that their grasp on power may be slipping. Who feel like there are incursions coming from migrants. You know, Trump described the walking caravan that approached the U.S./Mexico border in 2018 as an invasion of migrants. So, there's this sense of pulling up the drawbridge and saying, well, you know, we're done now. This is what our nation is. This is what the space we occupy is. And the rise of nationalism or the new rise of nationalism, if you like, and to some extent, that veering towards fascism is often connected to these lines because they become the spaces where you exert who you are. And that's what we are seeing increasingly across Europe and across America.
Nationalism can certainly go bad, but having a border and insisting that people respect immigration laws is not even remotely close to fascism.
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Here is a transcript for the August 29 show:
PBS Amanpour and Company
8/29/2022
11:54 PM ET
SARA SIDNER: It is fascinating. You talk about globalization versus nationalism as well. And you say that today there are more borders in the world than ever before in human history. So, do you think that this idea of nationalism and ultra-nationalism that is spreading across much of the West for certain and some of the East, do you think that is one of the reasons why we're seeing these borders go up in such a significant way?
JAMES CRAWFORD: It absolutely is. I mean, and you can see that everywhere. You know, you can see it very prominently in the United States, you know, with Mr. Trump administration. If you pour national identity into a line, which is what we have done, you know, as I said, that creation of this modern system of bordering led to the creation of nation-states, so, effectively led to nationalism. And there are so many instances where nationalism, identity is exerted by the drawing of these lines and the establishment of these lines. And there's also so much nostalgia now, you know, so much looking backwards. Particularly for Western countries who feel that their grasp on power may be slipping. Who feel like there are incursions coming from migrants.
You know, Trump described the walking caravan that approached the U.S./Mexico border in 2018 as an invasion of migrants. So, there's this sense of pulling up the drawbridge and saying, well, you know, we're done now. This is what our nation is. This is what the space we occupy is. And the rise of nationalism or the new rise of nationalism, if you like, and to some extent, that veering towards fascism is often connected to these lines because they become the spaces where you exert who you are. And that's what we are seeing increasingly across Europe and across America.
