On Monday's Anderson Cooper 360, CNN's Van Jones offered his theory about the controversy over the size of the crowd that attended President Trump's inauguration: "Ordinary leaders rely on the Constitution as a source of their legitimacy. But you get these kind of leaders that have these more authoritarian overtones — it's not the power of our constitution; it's the size of their crowds. The legitimacy doesn't come from these documents. They come from the fact that I represent something." Jones later added, "When you diminish his crowd size, it's...a blow to his sense of legitimacy." [video below]
Host Anderson Cooper turned to Jones, along with liberal journalist Carl Bernstein, Trump supporter Kayleigh McEnany, and Republican strategists Ed Rollins and Margaret Hoover, for a panel discussion on White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's first official press briefing. Jones gave his "authoritarian" claim about the President midway through the segment:
VAN JONES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: ...I have a different understanding of why it's so important, I think, for Trump — and leaders like Trump to talk about the crowd size. You know, ordinary leaders rely on the Constitution as a source of their legitimacy. But you get these kind of leaders that have these more authoritarian overtones — it's not the power of our constitution; it's the size of their crowds. The legitimacy doesn't come from these documents. They come from the fact that I represent something. I represent these masses that are rising.
Cooper countered that "there's another way you could look at it — which is, that it comes from a Donald Trump who has a longstanding interest in his numbers; in his ratings on The Apprentice...I mean, he's talked about ratings his entire career; the size of his business...even the size of the crowds at the CIA on Saturday." Jones replied that "most of us do see it as some sort of a personality thing...but I think it also is...part of a strategy. He sees himself as a movement leader...that has now captured state power; and he wants to use that on behalf of the movement...when you diminish his crowd size, it's...a blow to his sense of legitimacy. "
The CNN commentator isn't a mere bystander during the first day's of Trump's presidency. Despite the network making it clear to its employees that they were forbidden to participate in the Women's March, Jones was a publicized speaker for the event. As The Cable Game blog pointed out on Sunday, CNN didn't take any sort of disciplinary action towards the former Obama administration official. In fact, they touted his speech on their official Facebook and Twitter accounts.
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Earlier in the segment, Bernstein and McEnany gave conflicting takes on Sean Spicer's first official press briefing as White House press secretary. The Trump supporter seemingly cited NewsBusters articles on the media's coverage of the inauguration in her answer:
CARL BERNSTEIN, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: ...[L]et's back off from making the conduct of the press the issue here. The press has reported accurately and fairly on Donald Trump. And the business of lying, there was too much of it in the campaign by the candidate; there's too much of it going on now; and let them learn from this lesson.
ANDERSON COOPER: Kayleigh?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY: But I don't think the press has necessarily been fair. And it was important and revealing to me and insightful to me when you heard Sean Spicer say and describe, as a real human being, what it was like to watch the inauguration; and then, to go home and turn on your television set and hear this negative critique of what was supposed to be a day of coming together.
Just to give you a...synopsis: New York Times, 'dark and angry speech;' ABC journalist, 'this was ugly speech with anti-Semitic overtones;' NBC, 'this was unnecessarily divisive.' These are journalists describing a speech that a lot of Americans saw as re-empowering the people — giving the government back to the people. That's how a lot of people saw it. And when you have journalists not reporting the words of the President; but instead, characterizing it as dark — saying the same words, in fact, that came out of the mouths of Democratic senators — it is disappointing. And I think it's fair for Sean Spicer to push back on that.
The full transcript of the panel discussion segment from CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 on January 23, 2017:
ANDERSON COOPER: We're talking about President Trump's first full weekday in office, which is what any president hopes for. There was also damage control today by his press secretary, Sean Spicer — cleaning up after the President's remarks at the CIA; and Spicer's own, I guess, eruption, you could say, in the White House briefing room on Saturday. Jim Acosta asked him about both today. Here's what he said.
[CNN Graphic: "WH Press Secretary: 'It's Just Unbelievably Frustrating'"]
SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY (from press briefing): It's not just about a crowd size. It's about this constant — you know, he's not going to run; then, if he runs, he's going to drop out; then, if he runs, he can't win. There's no way he can win Pennsylvania. There's no way he can win Michigan. Then, if he won, it's, oh, he didn't — there is this constant theme to undercut the enormous support that he has. And I think it's just unbelievably frustrating, when you're continually told, it's not big enough; it's not good enough. You can't win.
I think, over and over again, there's this constant attempt to undermine his credibility and the movement that he represents. And it's frustrating for — not just him, but I think so many of us that are trying to work to get this message out.
COOPER: Sean Spicer this afternoon — back with the panel. Carl Bernstein, what do you make of what he is saying?
CARL BERNSTEIN, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Well, I think there's no necessity for the press secretary to whine like that, because Donald Trump won a great victory; and the press knows it, and the press has reported on it. It is one of the great upsets in American political history, and he deserves all the credit for that — that he's getting.
That doesn't mean, though, that the picture of America that they're drawing in the White House of this huge mandate is accurate. What it means is, is that he won the Electoral College. He's three million votes behind in the popular vote. It's a divided country. It's going to be a fascinating development to watch this occur. But we don't need lying on the part of the White House to advance what they're doing. But nonetheless, the fact that the President Tweets, I think it's terrific. It's like — it's like a MRI of his psyche. It's really amazing. And we get to see it direct — no filter — it's telling us a lot.
But — but let's back off from making the conduct of the press the issue here. The press has reported accurately and fairly on Donald Trump. And the business of lying, there was too much of it in the campaign by the candidate; there's too much of it going on now; and let them learn from this lesson.
COOPER: Kayleigh?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY: But I don't think the press has necessarily been fair. And it was important and revealing to me and insightful to me when you heard Sean Spicer say and describe, as a real human being, what it was like to watch the inauguration; and then, to go home and turn on your television set and hear this negative critique of what was supposed to be a day of coming together.
Just to give you a — you know, a synopsis: New York Times, 'dark and angry speech;' ABC journalist, 'this was ugly speech with anti-Semitic overtones;' NBC, 'this was unnecessarily divisive.' These are journalists describing a speech that a lot of Americans saw as re-empowering the people — giving the government back to the people. That's how a lot of people saw it. And when you have journalists not reporting the words of the President; but instead, characterizing it as dark — saying the same words, in fact, that came out of the mouths of Democratic senators — it is disappointing. And I think it's fair for Sean Spicer to push back on that.
COOPER: Van?
BERNSTEIN: It's pretty dark—
VAN JONES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, I mean, I think it's fair for people to have their — have their own views. I have a different understanding of why it's so important, I think, for Trump — and leaders like Trump to — to talk about the crowd size. You know, ordinary leaders rely on the Constitution as a source of their legitimacy. But you get these kind of leaders that have these more authoritarian overtones — it's not the power of our constitution; it's the size of their crowds. The legitimacy doesn't come from these — these documents. They come from the fact that I represent something. I represent these masses that are rising—
COOPER: But you're — you're characterizing it as authoritarian overtones—
JONES: Yes—
COOPER: There's another way you could look at it — which is, that it comes from a Donald Trump who has a longstanding interest in his numbers; in his ratings on 'The Apprentice;' on the size — I mean, he's talked about ratings his entire career; the size of his business — you know, even the size of the crowds at the CIA on Saturday—
BERNSTEIN: The size of his hands—
JONES: I wasn't going to say it! I wasn't going to say it! (Bernstein laughs) You said it. I didn't say it — get it right on Twitter. I didn't say that—
BERNSTEIN: Stepped on your line—
JONES: No, I wasn't going to say that. No, listen, I think that most of us do see it as some sort of a personality thing. It may be that it is 80 percent personality; but I think it also is — a part of a strategy. He sees himself as a movement leader—
COOPER: He's a movement leader—
JONES: And he sees himself as a movement leader that has now captured state power; and he wants to use that on behalf of the movement. But primary for him, is this movement — and the way you measure a movement is by crowd sizes. And so, when you diminish his crowd size, it's not — you know, who cares? It's — this is a blow to his sense of legitimacy.
COOPER: Ed? What—
ED ROLLINS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL ADVISER TO REAGAN: I would agree. I think it's a very legitimate point. I think, as I said earlier, he's a competitive guy. He does measure by those kinds of things — ratings, all the rest of it.
I would argue, at this point in this time, the lessons I learned six decades ago, when I was a young boxer, is you — is you never show pain. When you get hit hard, you never show pain. At the end of the day, he's now the President of the United States. He doesn't need to basically — and he's never going to get his approval ratings — he's going to be a president that's going to below 50 percent through most of his term, because we are a polarized society.
So what he has to do is go out and accomplish things. He won the job. He now has the opportunity to govern; and he has to govern in a way that's very unique, in the sense that even though Republicans have a majority — and he's now the leader of the Republican Party — he may not be the leader of the Republican philosophy, and there may be times where has Democrats and what have you. He has to basically measure his accomplishments, and when — four years from now, if the American public has more jobs and feels better about themselves, then he'll win again—
COOPER: That's it. Right—
ROLLINS: That's the measure. Up until that point in time, it doesn't matter.
COOPER: You know, Margaret, I think Ed makes an important point — and Kayleigh as well — which is that he's not an ideologue in the traditional sense. I mean, he has — there's a lot of positions which conservatives are nervous about; which Republicans — many in the GOP are nervous about.
MARGARET HOOVER, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: There is very, very little about the inaugural address itself that conservatives can identify with or relate to—
COOPER: Yes—
HOOVER: And I think this will be—
COOPER: But that's an opportunity for him to get other people in who ordinarily wouldn't be able to—
HOOVER: Name me the other Republican president who, in the last half of the 20th century, started his first day in office with 15 union members in the Oval Office for a photo op. I mean, what's very clearly happening, to me it seems, is that Donald Trump is trying to win over the union vote — win over the labor vote — and realign that aspect of the Democratic Party with the Republican Party, based on trade policy and protectionism. I mean, that is totally a separation from the past — from the conservative movement, from free market economics, from everything Republicans have really identified with. How he threads that needle and that dance; how he finds, sort of, a new center for trade for the Republican Party is—
COOPER: That's one of the things I think is going to be fascinating in the next four or eight years — however long the administration lasts.
