On Thursday, while interviewing Israeli Ambassador Ron Dermer on MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell Reports about the wave of Palestinian terrorist attacks plaguing Jerusalem, fill-in host Peter Alexander cited Obama administration fears of Israeli police being too hard on the knife-wielding killers: “State Department spokesperson John Kirby said that the U.S. was, in his words, ‘concerned about reports that could indicate the potential use of excessive force.’ Is this excessive force?”
Dermer rejected the absurd notion: “Absolutely not. I don't know what the State Department spokesman was talking about.” Alexander followed up by wondering: “Is there a middle ground beyond shooting these individuals?” Dermer again dismissed idea: “When somebody is coming at you with a knife, there is no middle ground. You have to actually take action in order to thwart that attack.”
On Wednesday, Kirby accused Israel of being “guilty of acts of terrorism.”
Throughout Thursday’s interview, Dermer had to correct Alexander’s framing of the crisis:
ALEXANDER: The country is effectively on lock-down right now. So what do you do to establish some peace for Israelis?
DERMER: Well, we’re not on lock-down. There are certain areas of the country that are of greater risk. One area where we’re focusing on is in Jerusalem.... eight Israelis have been murdered and we’ve had two to three dozen attacks. And so we have to put a stop to that and that's why the police are there.
(...)
ALEXANDER: The video on our screen right now, in the eyes of Palestinians it shows a 13-year-old boy being left to die by Israeli forces. Israelis say this is a knife-wielding attacker who had just stabbed two Israelis and was bleeding on the ground while they wait for an ambulance. What happened here?
DERMER: Well, it’s not a he-said, she-said....you’re having attacks in different areas throughout the country where people are taking knives, stabbing and killing people, and our police are taking the action required in order to put a stop to that....I don't know in what language that's innocent...
Here is a full transcript of the October 15 exchange:
12:39 PM ET
PETER ALEXANDER: Joining me now is Israel's ambassador to the U.S., Ron Dermer. Ambassador Dermer, nice to see you. The country is effectively on lock-down right now. So what do you do to establish some peace for Israelis?
RON DERMER: Well, we’re not on lock-down. There are certain areas of the country that are of greater risk. One area where we’re focusing on is in Jerusalem. There are Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem and we’ve had to send in a lot of police and some other forces in there to ensure that you don't have all of these attacks that you’ve seen over the last two or three weeks, that eight Israelis have been murdered and we’ve had two to three dozen attacks. And so we have to put a stop to that and that's why the police are there.
ALEXANDER: I want to talk about a recent video that obviously has been – it's gone viral, effectively, right now, as has this entire sort of situation in Israel. Social media has become such a powerful force. The video on our screen right now, in the eyes of Palestinians it shows a 13-year-old boy being left to die by Israeli forces. Israelis say this is a knife-wielding attacker who had just stabbed two Israelis and was bleeding on the ground while they wait for an ambulance. What happened here?
DERMER: Well, it’s not a he-said, she-said. I think the case that you’re speaking about is something that the Prime Minister just spoke about, where you had two young boys, one 13-years-old, one 15-year-old, and they went – we have them on video actually – running around with knives. They took a 13-year-old Jewish boy and they stabbed him multiple times and then that 15-year-old went to go attack a police officer on video, and you see the knife, and then he was shot. And the other 13-year-old also tried to do more attacks and he was also injured, but he's not dead. We do not target any of these people. What is happening is you’re having attacks in different areas throughout the country where people are taking knives, stabbing and killing people, and our police are taking the action required in order to put a stop to that.
ALEXANDER: On screen right now is two of the Palestinians that were caught...
DERMER: There you go.
ALEXANDER: ...on closed-circuit television carrying knives as they chased Israelis in the streets there.
DERMER: That doesn’t look – I don't know in what language that's innocent, but those people are chasing people with knives and you’ll see if you run that tape a little bit longer, you’ll see that they attack this little boy who is leaving a small market. Here it is. They’re running with knives. These are the people who President Abbas says are innocent and who Israel is executing. So the leader of the Palestinians is accusing Israel of executing an innocent boy.
Look, that's that kid around that circle, right? He's getting on his bike. It's a 13-year-old, it could be your son, it could be my son. He's going outside right now. And you’ll see on the top of your screen, people are running and he gets stabbed. And then if you roll the video just another ten seconds, you will see that 15-year-old boy crossing a street holding a knife and trying to attack a police officer. Now people are trying to help, as you see in the video. They’re running outside.
So these people are running loose with knives and now what are you going to do to stop it? I hope you’ll roll that for another few seconds because you’ll actually see when the boy gets shot. Here it is. Watch what happens. He's taking out a knife now. That's what's in that circle. And now he's running across the street and he's shot. Now what police officer would not do it in order to protect himself?
ALEXANDER: So what do you do right now to combat this situation where social media has become such a powerful force for so many young people without the context, these videos that are being spread right now? What do you do to combat social media when a lot of these individuals aren't allied with any specific terror group, they’re just young individuals who are seeking paradise, perhaps?
DERMER: Right. Well, the first thing you have to do is you have to make a clear demand, the international community has to make a clear demand from – demand from President Abbas of the Palestinian Authority that he has to fully stop all this incitement and all the lies. It's one thing when you are dealing with a problem of social media that individuals are spreading. It's another thing-
ALEXANDER: So you need the leaders to step up and say, “Hey, everybody listen”?
DERMER: The leaders have to step up and stand firmly against terrorism. Abbas is not doing that. He’s actually pouring more fuel on the flames. The other thing is we have to understand that this incitement problem has been going on for years.
ALEXANDER: Let me ask you – let me ask you what the State Department spokesperson John Kirby said, that the U.S. was, in his words, “concerned about reports that could indicate the potential use of excessive force.” Is this excessive force?
DERMER: Absolutely not. I don't know what the State Department spokesman was talking about. You’d have to ask him. Israel-
ALEXANDER: Is there a middle ground beyond shooting these individuals?
DERMER: When somebody is coming at you with a knife, there is no middle ground. You have to actually take action in order to thwart that attack. Not everybody who’s come at different people with knives have been killed, but there have been instances where a guy's taking a knife and he’s going to kill somebody. You know, they say guns kill people. Knives kill people. And that's why you have to take action to stop it.
ALEXANDER: When does Secretary Kerry go to Israel?
DERMER: Well, we’ll have to see. We know that he wants to do everything he can and we appreciate very much the effort to do everything he can to de-escalate the tension. You know, last year, we had a brief period where you had a bunch of attacks, you had people being run over. There was a meeting between the King of Jordan, Secretary Kerry, and the Prime Minister. That led, I think, temporarily to reduction But what we really need to do if we want to solve this problem long term, we have to address the issue of incitement within Palestinian society, we have to look at what young Palestinian children are learning in their schools, what they’re watching on television, and most important, we cannot have a Palestinian society that glorifies murderers and names public squares after killers. That has to stop and the international community can help us getting the Palestinian leadership to stop it.
ALEXANDER: Ambassador Dermer, always nice to see you.
DERMER: Thank you.
ALEXANDER: Thanks for coming to be with us today.
