RFK, Jr. DESTROYS CNN’s Dana Bash Over Media Handling of Covid, Fauci

Jorge Bonilla
August 2nd, 2026 4:52 PM

Text to Speech

00:00 00:00
Font Size

The Elitist Media have largely avoided the Fauci Diaries since its publication and subsequent hearing with their author before the Senate Homeland Security and American Government Committee. CNN’s Dana Bash tried to perform some narrative hygiene by having Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. as a guest on today’s edition of State of the Union. To put it mildly, that effort backfired.

Bash framed the interview before its start by dishonestly casting Fauci as a Trump appointee, and got immediately rebuffed when posing the question to Kennedy:

 

 

DANA BASH: Washington was also gripped this week by a blast from the past, as former top Trump health official doctor Anthony Fauci repeatedly pleaded the fifth at a congressional hearing over his handling of the covid pandemic, all while the U.S. Faces health challenges from disease outbreaks to rising health care costs. Here with me now is the Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Thank you for being here.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY. Jr.: Thanks for having me.

BASH: Appreciate it. You have been placing nearly all the blame on the COVID pandemic and the way that the U.S. responded to it squarely with Dr. Fauci. But, of course, he worked for President Trump. Does President Trump also deserve some of the blame?

KENNEDY: Well President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns.  I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns, lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process, no just compensation, all of our churches, closed our schools, and our children are still paying the price for that. And yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world.

BASH: How so?

KENNEDY: We have the highest death rate from COVID of any nation on Earth.

BASH: Well, let me just say, because I have heard you say that before on the death rate from COVID. That's not accurate, because public health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that, higher rates of chronic illnesses, which I know you would agree with, gaps to our health care system, and misinformation about vaccines.

KENNEDY: Yes, you just said what I said was inaccurate. What I said was accurate. We had the highest death rate from COVID of any...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Well, there are other countries that had higher, but go ahead.

KENNEDY: You can argue about why we had that. But you -- nobody can tell you. I mean, we have -- as you say, we have the highest chronic disease burden in the world. And Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic and was doing it under the Biden administration. President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns. And, in fact, in Anthony Fauci's diaries, he talks about how President Trump is calling him every day, trying to get him to reopen the country. 

Anthony Fauci has been in and around Washington since the late 60s. And although he was an active part of the Trump response as head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), it was the Biden administration that elevated him to Chief Medical Advisor to the President (and granted him a preemptive autopen pardon). None of that matters, as the goal here is to Trumpwash Fauci and blunt the impact of the Fauci Diaries for purposes of the Kennedy interview.

Kennedy had none of that, stomping all over Bash’s narrative and bringing to the fire Fauci’s role in the establishment of the Covid lockdowns.

Bash quickly tries to shift the topic to staving off the next pandemic, and tries to pin Kennedy down on gain-of-function research. When she insists on what it takes to prevent the next pandemic, she takes exception to Kennedy’s answer, which leads to this contentious exchange wherein she gets COOKED:

 

 

BASH: So, how do you prepare then? How do you prepare for the next pandemic? I mean, that's literally part of your job now, because experts think it's going to happen within the next 10 years again.

KENNEDY: Yes, I mean, I think we did virtually everything wrong the last time.

BASH: So -- but what about now?

KENNEDY: The principal thing that we need to do is, we need to listen to what's happening to doctors on the ground. There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world. They're mainly now connected through the Internet. We can tell on the front lines what's working and what's not. If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially millions of lives. There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors that were having no deaths from COVID and treating in some cases thousands of patients.

And we weren't listening to them. Instead, we were doing the opposite. We were shutting them down. And then, Dana, the other thing that I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights. That is the primary obligation of our country.

BASH: What does that mean?

KENNEDY: Well, during COVID, we completely dismantled our constitutional rights. We began censoring people, in violation of the First Amendment.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: But you're saying what not to do. I'm asking what to do. But I- but I want to talk about...

KENNEDY: Well, that's something to do. That is the number one priority. We protect the Constitution. The Constitution was written.

BASH: Forgive me, but you're just -- you're talking about rights, and I'm asking about a potential public health crisis that is coming. But I do want to -- let's...

KENNEDY: And one of the mistakes we made in the last time was suppressing those rights so people weren't being heard. Doctors who were saying you're doing it wrong were being marginalized and vilified and...

BASH: Yes, because -- because -- again, I really want to move on. But you were saying you were...

KENNEDY: Of course you want to move...

BASH: Yes, I do.

KENNEDY: ... because you were part of the problem.

BASH: No, I wasn't part of the problem.

KENNEDY: There was absolute press malpractice. You weren't allowing -- your job...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Mr. Secretary, your job...

KENNEDY: Your job is a fierce skepticism toward authority.

BASH: OK. Yes, I am. I am.

KENNEDY: And you weren't doing that. You were beating up on people who were dissenting.

BASH: My job is also -- no, OK. Are you going to -- you want to sit here and attack me, or do you want to have conversations about public health?

KENNEDY: Well, you're sitting here and attacking me.

BASH: I'm not attacking you. I'm asking questions about how to prevent the next pandemic.

KENNEDY: And let me answer the question. And I will tell you.

BASH: That's what I'm trying to do. But I also don't want to use this interview to allow you to say things that aren't entirely true. You're talking about therapeutics. Fine. It is also factually true that the COVID vaccine worked. The COVID vaccine prevented deaths. There is data upon data upon data. Let's talk about the measles, please, because this is something that is happening as we speak. The cases in the U.S...

KENNEDY: You think the COVID vaccine protected children?

BASH: I think that what I have talked to scientists and doctors about...

KENNEDY: You have talked to scientists. Can you look -- can you show me one study...

BASH: Yes, I can. I can.

KENNEDY: ... that shows that children were protected by the COVID vaccine?

BASH: I can tell you that there are...

KENNEDY: That that vaccine did more good than harm to children? Can you show me one study that shows that?

BASH: I can tell you that, when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that, because of vaccine disinformation, disinformation, there could have been 100,000 to 200,000 in the U.S. saved but because people didn't get the vaccine, that's why.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I'm not saying that it entirely -- let me finish. Let me finish.

KENNEDY: You are saying nonsense. You are saying something that you cannot show me a single study.

BASH: OK. I am not saying nonsense. I'm -- excuse me.

KENNEDY: You are talking -- somebody told you.

BASH: Excuse me. Let me...

KENNEDY: And you -- cite me the study. What study?

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: No, what studies are you talking about? You're talking about studies that actually don't exist. I want to talk about the...

KENNEDY: Cite me the study. You're talking about it. 

BASH: I'm not here to defend...

KENNEDY: You say you have seen studies. Cite me the study.

BASH: This is not productive. I am not here to defend all of the -- let me finish.

KENNEDY: You're just -- you're talking nonsense. You're making assertions you can't support, and then when I call you on them, you're telling me I'm arguing with you.

BASH: OK, do you want to talk about -you want to- talk about assertions that you can't support? I will get there in a second. Let me just say, for the record, that I am not saying that the entire way that the COVID reaction was accurate. It was a scary time, and people made mistakes, absolutely. Let me finish.

KENNEDY: You were scaring people.

BASH: Why are you saying that?

KENNEDY: Because that was the job of CNN...

BASH: OK. OK, stop.

KENNEDY: ... was to put the Chyrons up about many people are dying to get people to comply.

BASH: We were trying to be -- we were listening to the leaders in this country, including the president, who had a daily press conference explaining what was going on, and trying to listen.

KENNEDY: Were you listening to the scientists, actually?

BASH: I want to talk to -- measles.

KENNEDY: Were you reading the science yourself?

Not doing the thing that failed last time is a perfectly acceptable response to the question of how to prepare for the next pandemic. Perhaps it wasn’t the response that Bash wanted to hear but it was valid nonetheless. 

This may well be one of the first times, if not the first, that anyone brings accountability to the Elitist Media for their role in spreading Covid propaganda and helping squash any dissent against the measures; whether the vaccine, the lockdowns, the social distancing, or the school closures. Kennedy called her out and then demanded she bolster her claims with science. And Bash learned the hard way that there is a difference between The Science™ the media pushed and the actual science the people needed to hear.

Bash would eventually shift the conversation to the ongoing measles outbreak. Here, again, she got absolutely wrecked. 

 

 

BASH: The measles cases in the U.S. just reached a 35-year high, the second record-breaking year in a row; 93 percent of these cases are among the unvaccinated. The outbreak is happening on your watch. And even before becoming HHS Secretary, for years, you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines. Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak?

KENNEDY: Absolutely not. First of all, this is an international outbreak. So we're doing better at handling it than any country in the world. Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. Canada has four times the amount of measles. England has two times the amount of measles. Did I cause those measles outbreaks? 

BASH: You're the most famous...

KENNEDY: Did I cause 137,000 cases of measles in Europe?

BASH: You're the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet.

KENNEDY: Let me tell you, because actually Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question about why we're having a measles outbreak right now. The reason we're having a measles outbreak is because of the COVID lockdowns, because people didn't -- like, children during that period did not get vaccinated. And, in his diaries, he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and more children -- he says this -- are going to die.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: Let me finish, because you accused me of something. Now let me...

BASH: Go ahead. No, I didn't. I asked you a question.

KENNEDY: Yes, let me give you the answer. He says in his diaries, more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns than COVID. So, if you want to know -- and that age group that should have gotten the MMR when they were 18 months and didn't get it, they're the ones being infected. The people in this country -- and we have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina and Texas and Utah and Virginia. We have done better than any country in the world. I dispatched immediately the epidemic intelligence services to those states. I get on the phone with the governor and we stop them in their tracks.

BASH: OK.

KENNEDY: Nobody else has been able to do that.

BASH: You have a bully pulpit.

KENNEDY: Let me tell you just one last thing.

BASH: Go ahead. Go ahead.

KENNEDY: The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don't vaccinate. The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine. It's hard to blame that on me, as much as you want to blame it on me.

BASH: No, I don't want to blame you. I'm asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical. 

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Let me finish. Let me finish.

KENNEDY: I have never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: OK, let me -- let me finish. What I want you to do is please use your bully pulpit to right now, as we're getting close to back to school, say -- are you willing to say to parents who have not vaccinated their kids that they should vaccinate their kids for measles because it is safe and it will help them save their children's lives?

KENNEDY: I tell people on my Web sites, my public...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Right now. Look into the camera.

KENNEDY: I will say it right now, that people -- parents should get their children vaccinated for measles. A measles vaccine is effective. It stops measles in about 97 percent of the cases. So, people should get vaccinated.

Kennedy would then call Bash out and the media yet again, and in one of the more memorable parts of this highly contentious interview, state that Bash knows nothing but instead parrots the people saying, “trust the experts.” 

 

 

KENNEDY: Let me ask you something. Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy, or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?

BASH: I see my job as telling the truth. And the truth is that there is study after study after study. It's one of the most studied things out there in science.

KENNEDY: You're repeating it like a parrot. You're repeating it like a parrot.

BASH: So are you.

KENNEDY: I have actually read the science. Let's...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: You don't want to...

KENNEDY: Let's you and I come back here and debate the science.

BASH: I don't -- I'm not debating this with you.

KENNEDY: Of course you won't.

BASH: No, because I'm not...

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: All you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say, trust the experts.That's what you did during COVID. Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything, about masks, about the social distancing, about natural immunity, about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID. He was lying, and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts. And now you're rolling out the experts again...

BASH: Yes.

KENNEDY: ... to talk about something that you have no personal knowledge of.

BASH: OK. Well, guess what? That is my job to talk to people.

KENNEDY: Your job is to tell the truth to the American public...

BASH: Am I allowed to talk? Yes, yes. And my job is to get as much information as I can.

KENNEDY: ... and to maintain a posture of fierce skepticism toward government authority.

BASH: What we were doing in COVID and still, with regard to these vaccines, is getting the best information, the best science that we can and putting it out there. And, sir, you what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: ... lying to you, who is lying to you.

BASH: The National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited, in November, said: "We support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism." This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about.

KENNEDY: The National -- look at the National Academy of Sciences' most recent report.

BASH: OK.

KENNEDY: And you will see.

The interview closed out with similar exchanges on autism, vaccines, and ultra-processed foods. Bash did subsequent mop-up by bringing on Biden’s head of Covid response, Dr. Ashish Jha. It should also be noted that this was the only coverage of any kind given to the Fauci Diaries on any of the Elitist Media’s Sunday shows. Given how the exchange went, we can clearly see why.

P.S: Dana Bash is mentioned exactly 9 times in the Fauci Diaries. Seven of those are a memorialization of his interviews with her on CNN. One mention records a text message citing Vanity Fair, saying:

I received a text from Dana Bash pointing out that Vanity Fair recently had a headline that said: Jim Jordan trips over his own asshole trying to debate Anthony Fauci. 

And there is the mention of another text sent to Fauci by Bash. Fauci wrote:

Dana Bash sent me a text: “I just watched the whole Jordan thing. Again, you’re a better man than I…. As our friend Wolf Blitzer said to me yesterday – no one would have blamed you if you said simply “Mr. Jordan, go f--- yourself” 

Click “expand” to view the full transcript of the aforementioned interview as aired on CNN State of the Union on Sunday, August 2nd, 2026:

DANA BASH: Here with me now is the Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Thank you for being here.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY. Jr.: Thanks for having me.

BASH: Appreciate it. You have been placing nearly all the blame on the COVID pandemic and the way that the U.S. responded to it squarely with Dr. Fauci. But, of course, he worked for President Trump. Does President Trump also deserve some of the blame?

KENNEDY: Well President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns.  I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns, lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process, no just compensation, all of our churches, closed our schools, and our children are still paying the price for that. And yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world.

BASH: How so?

KENNEDY: We have the highest death rate from COVID of any nation on Earth.

BASH: Well, let me just say, because I have heard you say that before on the death rate from COVID. That's not accurate, because public health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that, higher rates of chronic illnesses, which I know you would agree with, gaps to our health care system, and misinformation about vaccines.

KENNEDY: Yes, you just said what I said was inaccurate. What I said was accurate. We had the highest death rate from COVID of any...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Well, there are other countries that had higher, but go ahead.

KENNEDY: You can argue about why we had that. But you -- nobody can tell you. I mean, we have -- as you say, we have the highest chronic disease burden in the world. And Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic and was doing it under the Biden administration. President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns. And, in fact, in Anthony Fauci's diaries, he talks about how President Trump is calling him every day, trying to get him to reopen the country.

BASH: Yes, well, the lockdowns were done by governors. I mean, certainly, Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors, and largely because -- and largely because they were hearing they were hearing from hospitals saying that their ICUs were overrun and they needed some help while that was happening.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: Well, that's not true. Dana, that's just not true.

BASH: It is true.

KENNEDY: What you're saying is not true. No, they were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them from the top, you need to lock down. There were ICUs that were empty all over the country, including in New York at the height.

BASH: I'm asking you -- I'm going to go back to what I asked you at the beginning, which is President Trump. And he was the guy in charge. And he -- you tweeted back in 2024 that he let bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country. Again, the president was in charge.

KENNEDY: The president was trying to reopen the country when he left. The country was kept closed for another year, almost a year-and-a-half after that.

BASH: Let's talk about how to prevent the next pandemic, because there's a lot of litigating and relitigating that I don't think is really helpful to do with regard to COVID. And the question is about so-called gain of function, which, for people who aren't entirely clear about it, it is a highly risky research process that includes manipulating a virus to study how it behaves as it evolves. Now, what scientists say is that, although it's controversial, it's necessary to prepare for the next pandemic, to get ahead of it, to figure out what these viruses can do. You want to end this gain of function research. Some scientists say, isn't it better just to put better guardrails around it?

KENNEDY: People have been trying to put guardrails around it for generations, and it hasn't worked. And, clearly, the COVID-19 pandemic and many other global pandemics that we have, have come from data function research. The RSV epidemic that we have that is the biggest killer of kids in this country today came from these kind of experiments. The Lyme Disease almost certainly came from this kind of research.So -- and the scientists who you say are experts are making the argument that this is necessary for pandemic response cannot point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind of experimentation has actually provided us something beneficial.

BASH: So, how do you prepare then? How do you prepare for the next pandemic? I mean, that's literally part of your job now, because experts think it's going to happen within the next 10 years again.

KENNEDY: Yes, I mean, I think we did virtually everything wrong the last time.

BASH: So -- but what about now?

KENNEDY: The principal thing that we need to do is, we need to listen to what's happening to doctors on the ground. There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world. They're mainly now connected through the Internet. We can tell on the front lines what's working and what's not. If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially millions of lives. There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors that were having no deaths from COVID and treating in some cases thousands of patients.And we weren't listening to them. Instead, we were doing the opposite. We were shutting them down. And then, Dana, the other thing that I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights. That is the primary obligation of our country.

BASH: What does that mean?

KENNEDY: Well, during COVID, we completely dismantled our constitutional rights. We began censoring people, in violation of the First Amendment.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: But you're saying what not to do. I'm asking what to do. But I- but I want to talk about...

KENNEDY: Well, that's something to do. That is the number one priority. We protect the Constitution. The Constitution was written.

BASH: Forgive me, but you're just -- you're talking about rights, and I'm asking about a potential public health crisis that is coming. But I do want to -- let's...

KENNEDY: And one of the mistakes we made in the last time was suppressing those rights so people weren't being heard. Doctors who were saying you're doing it wrong were being marginalized and vilified and...

BASH: Yes, because -- because -- again, I really want to move on. But you were saying you were...

KENNEDY: Of course you want to move...

BASH: Yes, I do.

KENNEDY: ... because you were part of the problem.

BASH: No, I wasn't part of the problem.

KENNEDY: There was absolute press malpractice. You weren't allowing -- your job...(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Mr. Secretary, your job...

KENNEDY: Your job is a fierce skepticism toward authority.

BASH: OK. Yes, I am. I am.

KENNEDY: And you weren't doing that. You were beating up on people who were dissenting.

BASH: My job is also -- no, OK. Are you going to -- you want to sit here and attack me, or do you want to have conversations about public health?

KENNEDY: Well, you're sitting here and attacking me.

BASH: I'm not attacking you. I'm asking questions about how to prevent the next pandemic.

KENNEDY: And let me answer the question. And I will tell you. 

BASH: That's what I'm trying to do. But I also don't want to use this interview to allow you to say things that aren't entirely true. You're talking about therapeutics. Fine. It is also factually true that the COVID vaccine worked. The COVID vaccine prevented deaths. There is data upon data upon data. Let's talk about the measles, please, because this is something that is happening as we speak. The cases in the U.S...

KENNEDY: You think the COVID vaccine protected children?

BASH: I think that what I have talked to scientists and doctors about...

KENNEDY: You have talked to scientists. Can you look -- can you show me one study...

BASH: Yes, I can. I can.

KENNEDY: ... that shows that children were protected by the COVID vaccine?

BASH: I can tell you that there are...

KENNEDY: That that vaccine did more good than harm to children? Can you show me one study that shows that?

BASH: I can tell you that, when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that, because of vaccine disinformation, disinformation, there could have been 100,000 to 200,000 in the U.S. saved But because people didn't get the vaccine, that's why.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I'm not saying that it entirely -- let me finish. Let me finish.

KENNEDY: You are saying nonsense. You are saying something that you cannot show me a single study.

BASH: OK. I am not saying nonsense. I'm -- excuse me.

KENNEDY: You are talking -- somebody told you.

BASH: Excuse me. Let me...

KENNEDY: And you -- cite me the study. What study?

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: No, what studies are you talking about? You're talking about studies that actually don't exist. I want to talk about the...

KENNEDY: Cite me the study. You're talking about it. 

BASH: I'm not here to defend...

KENNEDY: You say you have seen studies. Cite me the study.

BASH: This is not productive. I am not here to defend all of the -- let me finish.

KENNEDY: You're just -- you're talking nonsense. You're making assertions you can't support, and then when I call you on them, you're telling me I'm arguing with you.

BASH: OK, do you want to talk about you want to talk about assertions that you can't support? I will get there in a second. Let me just say, for the record, that I am not saying that the entire way that the COVID reaction was accurate. It was a scary time, and people made mistakes, absolutely. Let me finish.

KENNEDY: You were scaring people.

BASH: Why are you saying that?

KENNEDY: Because that was the job of CNN...

BASH: OK. OK, stop.

KENNEDY: ... was to put the Chyrons up about many people are dying to get people to comply.

BASH: We were trying to be -- we were listening to the leaders in this country, including the president, who had a daily press conference explaining what was going on, and trying to listen.

KENNEDY: Were you listening to the scientists, actually?

BASH: I want to talk to -- measles.

KENNEDY: Were you reading the science yourself?

BASH: The measles cases in the U.S. just reached a 35-year high, the second record-breaking year in a row; 93 percent of these cases are among the unvaccinated. The outbreak is happening on your watch. And even before becoming HHS Secretary, for years, you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines. Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak?

KENNEDY: Absolutely not. First of all, this is an international outbreak. So we're doing better at handling it than any country in the world. Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. Canada has four times the amount of measles. England has two times the amount of measles. Did I cause those measles outbreaks? 

BASH: You're the most famous...

KENNEDY: Did I cause 137,000 cases of measles in Europe?

BASH: You're the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet.

KENNEDY: Let me tell you, because actually Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question about why we're having a measles outbreak right now. The reason we're having a measles outbreak is because of the COVID lockdowns, because people didn't -- like, children during that period did not get vaccinated. And, in his diaries, he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and more children -- he says this -- are going to die.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: Let me finish, because you accused me of something. Now let me...

BASH: Go ahead. No, I didn't. I asked you a question.

KENNEDY: Yes, let me give you the answer. He says in his diaries, more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns than COVID. So, if you want to know -- and that age group that should have gotten the MMR when they were 18 months and didn't get it, they're the ones being infected. The people in this country -- and we have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina and Texas and Utah and Virginia. We have done better than any country in the world. I dispatched immediately the epidemic intelligence services to those states. I get on the phone with the governor, and we stop them in their tracks.

BASH: OK.

KENNEDY: Nobody else has been able to do that.

BASH: You have a bully pulpit.

KENNEDY: Let me tell you just one last thing.

BASH: Go ahead. Go ahead.

KENNEDY: The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don't vaccinate. The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine. It's hard to blame that on me, as much as you want to blame it on me.

BASH: No, I don't want to blame you. I'm asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical. 

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Let me finish. Let me finish.

KENNEDY: I have never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine.(CROSSTALK)

BASH: OK, let me -- let me finish. What I want you to do is please use your bully pulpit to right now, as we're getting close to back to school, say -- are you willing to say to parents who have not vaccinated their kids that they should vaccinate their kids for measles because it is safe and it will help them save their children's lives?

KENNEDY: I tell people on my Web sites, my public...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Right now. Look into the camera.

KENNEDY: I will say it right now, that people -- parents should get their children vaccinated for measles. A measles vaccine is effective. It stops measles in about 97 percent of the cases. So, people should get vaccinated.

BASH: Can I ask you? "The Wall Street Journal" reported that the president is pressuring you to conduct studies probing the link between vaccines and autism. Is that true?

KENNEDY: Did you say probing the link?

BASH: What "The Wall" -- I'm just quoting "The Wall Street Journal," that they, that the president wants you to go further to probe the links between autism and vaccines.

KENNEDY: He certainly does.

BASH: OK. Now, have you talked to him about medical research that have studied this for 25 years and found no link between autism and vaccines? And just that -- this is my question here, because I don't want to litigate that. My question is, why not -- because you are HHS Secretary now. Why not study what could cause autism, which scientists do believe starts with fetal brain development? Why not do some studies on that, whether there's -- since you're an environmental lawyer, whether there are environmental factors that go into contributing to a predisposed genetic situation?

KENNEDY: Well, let me say this first. We're doing all those things. And that's one of the ways that we found Tylenol. There's 73 studies out that link Tylenol exposure during later pregnancy and during the perinatal period to autism onset.But you are wrong when you say that this issue has been studied. It has been studied. And you're rolling your eyes, Dana, but this is another example...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I am, because I don't want -- I don't want to have you use our air to say this. There have been more than 40 studies involving 5.6 million people to conclude there is no link between vaccines and autism. This is the head of the Committee of Infectious Diseases for the American Academy of Pediatrics.

KENNEDY: And now let me tell you what the Institute of Medicine is -- says, which is the National Academy of Sciences, which is the ultimate arbiter on vaccine safety, in which it does not have an interest in this debate. It says that none of the eight vaccines that are administered during the first six months of life have ever been studied for relationship to autism. It found two studies, one on the DTP vaccine that show that it does cause autism, and one on the hepatitis B vaccine that again suggests that it does cause autism.The Institute of Medicine dismissed those two studies because they were based on CDC's database. The studies that you're referring to are all from one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, or one ingredient, thimerosal.

BASH: So you are using -- you are actually looking at -- you're starting new studies to try to link autism, but you're also telling me...KENNEDY: I'm not trying to link autism to anything. I'm trying to find out, why has autism gone from...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Are you also trying to find out how it interacts with people's DNA, what's predisposed to have an autistic child? Are you doing both?

KENNEDY: Yes. But, Dana, you probably don't understand this because you're not a scientist.

BASH: Well, you're not either.

KENNEDY: But genes don't cause -- genes don't cause epidemics.

BASH: I understand. Genes -- epidemics?

KENNEDY: They can provide a vulnerability, but you need environmental exposure.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Environmental. That's what I'm asking. Are you studying the environmental exposure?

KENNEDY: We're looking at all the different environmental exposures. But your statement -- you have been fooled. Your statement that this has been studied is not true. It's categorically not true, not for any of the study.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: It is considered decided.

KENNEDY: Considered by who?

BASH: By every scientist who has studied this.

KENNEDY: That is not true.

BASH: It is true.

KENNEDY: I can give you hundreds of scientists who have looked at this and say, why is the...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: So, on the one hand, you are -- do you understand why people aren't getting...

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: This is the National Academy of Sciences. What greater authority do..

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Do you understand why people are not getting measles vaccines? Because they're hearing you say that it could cause autism.

KENNEDY: You're trying to change the subject.

BASH: I'm not. It's very much related.

KENNEDY: And, look, show me one of the studies that's been done on the first eight -- the vaccines during the first six months of life. You will not find them. The National Academy of Sciences states they do not exist.

BASH: So, if that's the case, then why are you telling people to get the measles vaccine?

KENNEDY: If people -- because that is one of the vaccines that has been studied.

BASH: OK.

KENNEDY: It's the only one that has been studied.

BASH: Do you want people to get the MMR vaccine?

KENNEDY: Yes, I said that already.

BASH: OK.

KENNEDY: So I know you're flustered now, and it is...

BASH: I don't -- I'm not flustered at all.

KENNEDY: It is frustrating because people...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I am frustrated. The reason I'm frustrated is because I -- you are the HHS Secretary, and you are talking about things that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country. And it is something that causes problems for people, when there is not anything...

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: Let me ask you something. Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy, or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?

BASH: I see my job as telling the truth. And the truth is that there is study after study after study. It's one of the most studied things out there in science.

KENNEDY: You're repeating it like a parrot. You're repeating it like a parrot.

BASH: So are you.

KENNEDY: I have actually read the science. Let's...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: You don't want to...

KENNEDY: Let's you and I come back here and debate the science.

BASH: I don't -- I'm not debating this with you.

KENNEDY: Of course you won't.

BASH: No, because I'm not...

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: All you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say, trust the experts.That's what you did during COVID. Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything, about masks, about the social distancing, about natural immunity, about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID. He was lying, and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts. And now you're rolling out the experts again... 

BASH: Yes.

KENNEDY: ... to talk about something that you have no personal knowledge of.

BASH: OK. Well, guess what? That is my job to talk to people.

KENNEDY: Your job is to tell the truth to the American public...

BASH: Am I allowed to talk? Yes, yes. And my job is to get as much information as I can.

KENNEDY: ... and to maintain a posture of fierce skepticism toward government authority.

BASH: What we were doing in COVID and still, with regard to these vaccines, is getting the best information, the best science that we can and putting it out there. And, sir, you what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: ... lying to you, who is lying to you.

BASH: The National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited, in November, said: "We support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism." This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about.

KENNEDY: The National -- look at the National Academy of Sciences' most recent report.

BASH: OK.

KENNEDY: And you will see.

BASH: I don't -- I want to ask you one other question because it's something that really did help Donald Trump get elected, and that is the MAHA movement and specifically the question of processed foods.

KENNEDY: Of what?

BASH: Processed foods and the fact that people want to feel that their food is safe. My understanding is that you're pushing for reforms on food safety and ultra-processed foods that have been slowed, in some cases blocked by people in the administration who are working on behalf of the industry. Is that true?

KENNEDY: No, that is not true.

BASH: So you feel that you will be able to get these reforms done without any problems?

KENNEDY: I think the GRAS -- the two big reforms that you're probably talking about is ultra-processed food definition...

BASH: Exactly.

KENNEDY: ... and the GRAS standards.

BASH: Yes.

KENNEDY: And they have both gone through extensive interagency process. I'm very confident that we will get them both out there within probably a month.

BASH: Well, I'm sorry that this -- and that's good news for people who are very -- moms, and I'm one of them, who are very worried about making sure that our kids eat food and we eat food that is that is healthy. I'm sorry that this turned into a very contentious conversation, and my job is to try to get the best information out there. And it does concern me when you come in and say things that have -- I...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Yes, people who have scientific backgrounds, and who I know have tried to talk to you as well. Thank you for coming in.

Donor Privacy Policy