Late Thursday’s CNN Tonight provided an excellent example of why it’s impossible to say that CNN is unbiased, respects conservatives, cares about the whole Constitution, or knows what it's talking about on guns as host Don Lemon and The Nation’s Joan Walsh childishly attacked National Review’s Rich Lowry on gun control.
Lowry first blasted Lemon for insinuating that “Republicans are secret gun controllers and just have been bought off to go out and lie [by the National Rifle Association (NRA)] and pretend they're in favor of gun rights” as "not true” and could be a “sincere conviction.”
Lemon not only didn’t think or care as he and Walsh immediately shouted at Lowry that he wasn’t “suggesting anything” and he’s “just reading the facts.” When Lowry asked if Ryan’s views are not connected to his NRA donations, Lemon denied the sincerity of conservative lawmakers and then refused to answer if he’s thinks “they’re bought off.”
“No, no one is saying that why creating the straw person that is what. It’s not something either one of us would. The money is relevant, because they have an alliance, the money is relevant. The money gets them elected,” Walsh responded.
Walsh devolved into mockery, repeatedly parroting Lemon and shouting while Lowry would speak. Concerning the AR-15, Lowry succinctly argued to these misinformed liberals that “[a]n AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the country at the moment”:
Millions people own them and they don't go out and shoot up schools. Every one of those gun control measures that you mentioned universal background checks, a cosmetic ban on certain stylistic weapons would do nothing to stops these sort of killings.
Instead of addressing Lowry, Walsh again was adamant that this was “not true” while Lemon howeled, “How do you know that unless you try it, Rich? How do you know?” Throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks is not a policy position, Don.
Once again, Lowry raised an oustanding point with this one being about how the Virginia Tech shooting was committed with a handgun but Lemon shouted Lowry down and tacitly advocated for a European-style gun confiscation:
Hold on, hold on, hold on let me — let me just tell you this. Other countries have done the same thing. They have banned, done background checks. They have done sensible gun legislation and guess what? They aren't nearly where we are when it comes to guns, but even — even by percentage wise.
Not giving up, Lowry invoked background checks amidst more shouting, “Let's talk about background checks. Everyone brings up background checks. Almost every single case, they passed a background check because they hadn't been adjudicated and weren't guilt of crimes.”
Lemon and Walsh screeched that there was a way to flag someone even if they haven’t done anything against the law, but never went any further to explain how it would have stopped any of the recent mass killings.
The CNN host later mentioned the proposal to ban everyone on the terror watch list from buying a gun, but Lowry fact-checked him by noting to Lemon’s groans that “the terror watch list is a mess” and “[e]veryone acknowledges that” we should “clean it up.”
“[W]e care more about guns than we do children and it's disgusting and we need to change the culture that — that enshrines guns as a kind of manhood. We were — are not entitled to AR-15. We are entitled to own guns. We are not entitled to own weapons of mass destruction,” Walsh responded.
Lowry refuted this, so Lemon petulantly informed Lowry that he “put[s] the information out there” (read: liberal spin) and repeated CNN’s self-sanctimonious motto of “Facts First.”
Perhaps the best part came when Lemon contradicted himself within seconds by claiming that no one was talking about taking people’s guns away, then boasting that “most Americans wanted” large-scale bans:
LOWRY: It's a cosmetic — it's a cosmetic definition. Semiautomatic — guns in this country are semiautomatic weapons. That’s a basic technology. If you want to ban all semiautomatic weapon, that is enormous prohibition. To have to make any difference, you have to go and confiscate them.
LEMON: That is, again, an extreme —
LOWRY: And then you'll have enormous Second Amendment problems.
LEMON: — that’s not what any one is saying. No one is saying ban all semiautomatic
LOWRY: Well, see this is your contradiction.
LEMON: No. It is not my contradiction.
LOWRY: Yes, it is.
LEMON: I sit here to have a conversation to talk about it and to actually do something about it. I gave you facts about what most Americans want. Most Americans want a ban on semiautomatic weapons. Most want a ban on assault weapons.
LOWRY: But that won’t stop school shootings. Just polling doesn’t — see, there is no magic solution, Don.
The whole duel lasted over 13 minutes, so be sure to check out the full transcript.
To see the full transcript from the debate on February 16's CNN Tonight with Don Lemon, click “expand.”
CNN Tonight with Don Lemon
February 15, 2018
11:12 p.m. EasternRICH LOWRY: Well, I think you're looking at this totally from the wrong perspective. Let's take Paul Ryan for instance. I'm sure — I’m almost certain he was pro-gun rights even before he thought about running for Congress. So the idea all the Republicans are secret gun controllers and just have been bought off to go out and lie and pretend they're in favor of gun rights is not true. This is a sincere conviction.
DON LEMON: Where is the evidence? I never said that.
JOAN WALSH: I don’t think Don was saying that.
LOWRY: Well you're suggesting that Paul Ryan —
LEMON: I'm not suggesting anything.
LOWRY: — because of the money.
LEMON: I’m just reading the facts.
LOWRY: Okay, so the contributions have nothing to do with Paul Ryan's conviction on guns? We agree on that?
LEMON: No, we don't agree with that.
LOWRY: Okay. That’s the point I'm making. I’m sure he was pro —
LEMON: I’m not saying — you're saying they're secret gun controllers. I never intimated that.
LOWRY: Yes. You're saying they're bought off. So — if they’re — what are they being bought off to a position they don't agree with it? Is that what you’re suggesting?
LEMON: Do you think they're not influenced by the money?
LOWRY: No.
LEMON: Are you influenced by money?
LOWRY: Let’s talk about Paul Ryan.
LEMON: Do you know where your bread is butter?
LOWRY: Let’s talk about Paul Ryan. You think he is a secret gun controller? He has always been in favor of gun control.
WALSH: No, no one is saying that why creating the straw person that is what. It’s not something either one of us would.
LOWRY: No. Well — How it the money relevant? So it’s a sincere conviction.WALSH: The money is relevant, because they have an alliance, the money is relevant.
LEMON: The money is getting them elected.
WALSH: The money gets them elected.
LOWRY: The NRA supporting him because he’s pro-gun.
WALSH: They have come around to —
LEMON: I am looking at it that way.
WALSH: — absolutism version of the First Amendment where common sense gun laws don’t work.
LOWRY: What's wrong?
LEMON: No it doesn't. Because he is influenced by the money.
LOWRY: No, no, no. So you think he —
LEMON: If the NRA —
LOWRY: — you think that —
LEMON: — is not paying him the money, then he would —
LOWRY: — when he was 16 years old out hunting deer, he was in favor of gun control then he ran for office and all this lobbyist money came to him and he changed his view on guns. That’s absurd
WALSH: You are creating a straw person.
LEMON: So, why oppose common sense restrictions that the vast number of Americans support and, by the way, do you think he was out with an AR-15 hunting?
LOWRY: I’m sure he is out with a rifle.
LEMON: Okay but an AR-15?
LOWRY: An AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the country at the moment.
LEMON: So what does that mean? That is a problem. That is a problem.
LOWRY: Millions people own them and they don't go out and shoot up schools. Every one of those gun control measures that you mentioned universal background checks, a cosmetic ban on certain stylistic weapons would do nothing to stops these sort of killings.
WALSH: That’s actually not true.
LEMON: How do you know that unless you try it, Rich? How do you know?
WALSH: That’s actually not true and we’re not —
LOWRY: Okay, Virginia Tech one of the worst school shootings. What weapon was used?
WALSH: — changing the culture.
LEMON: Hold on, hold on, hold on let me — let me just tell you this. Other countries have done the same thing. They have banned, done background checks. They have done sensible gun legislation and guess what? They aren't nearly where we are when it comes to guns, but even — even by percentage wise.
LOWRY: Let's talk about background checks. Everyone brings up background checks.
LEMON: Wise.
LOWRY: Almost every single case, they passed a background check because they hadn't been adjudicated and weren't guilt of crimes.
LEMON: So, then that is —
LOWRY: There is no background check you can devise —
LEMON: — that’s the problem.
WALSH: In fact there is. There actually is. You could — you could devise it.
LEMON: So they haven’t been adjudicated. That’s the problem. It doesn’t have to be adjudicated.
LOWRY: So how are you — how are you going to adjudicate someone who hasn’t committed a crime?
WALSH: This young man —
LEMON: So you could do a background check and do it longer.
WALSH: — the police were at —
LEMON: Hold on, Joan, let me get — you can do a background check. You can have the length be longer. So you can also have —
LOWRY: If you're talking.
LEMON: — it where it doesn't have to be adjudicated. It could be a doctor, you could — you could send people to be checked.
LOWRY: Two things.
LEMON: You could check their records when it comes to psychology.
LOWRY: If you’re saying that means pay more attention to people who are troubled and mentally ill —
LEMON: No, I’m saying you can do both.
LOWRY: — have more interventions I agree with you.
LEMON: You can do both.
LOWRY: I agree with you.
LEMON: You can do both.
WALSH: But Republicans are siding with the budget.
LOWRY: But you're criticizing Donald Trump for saying that.
LEMON: I'm criticizing all politicians —
LOWRY: Okay. It's a constitutional right.
LEMON: — regardless if they’re Republican or Democrat who will not even broach the subject of how we get sensible gun legislation to stop this from happening.
LOWRY: No. We talk about it all the time.
WALSH: Well, there’s very few Democrats who won’t talk about it.
LEMON: The solutions —LEMON: We talk about it all the time. We don’t do anything.
LOWRY: — the solutions you offer have no interaction with these horrific crimes. If you can give me a gun control idea —
LEMON: Okay, Dianne Feinstein proposed —
LOWRY: — that would actually stop one of these, then —
LEMON: — proposed that people who —
LOWRY: — we can have a conversation.
LEMON: — Diane Feinstein proposed people on the terror watch list were not able to buy guns. Republicans couldn't — could not even come to consensus on that. How does that make sense?
WALSH: It’s ridiculous.
LOWRY: Because the terror watch list is a mess. Everyone acknowledges that. [LEMON GRAONS] If you clean it up.
WALSH: Well, then clean it up.
LOWRY: There is —
WALSH: Clean it up.
LOWRY: Fine. Let's clean it up —
LEMON: So, clean it up —
LOWRY: — and then we can have the conversation, but —
LEMON: — and then do that as well.
LOWRY: — the fundamental fact, Don —
LEMON: So, you’re saying —
LOWRY: — is the Second Amendment —
LEMON: — so, you’re saying —
LOWRY: — in this country —
LEMON: — that people on the terror watch list, in the interim, while you’re cleaning it up, they should be allowed to have guns.
WALSH: Guns. Mentally ill people? guns.
LOWRY: Again, none of these shooters are on the terror watch list. So, again —
WALSH: Joan.
LOWRY: — you're talking about something that has no interaction with these actual crimes.
WALSH: We care more —
LOWRY: That’s the whole weakness of your case.
WALSH: — we care more about guns than we do children and it's disgusting and we need to change the culture that — that enshrines guns as a kind of manhood. We were — are not entitled to AR-15. We are entitled to own guns. We are not entitled to own weapons of mass destruction. You brought the receipts all these guys, yes they've been bought and paid for. They may now have come around to agree. They are not secret gun controllers.
LOWRY: So, now you’re contradicting yourself.
WALSH: They have — they have —
LOWRY: You're saying they have been bought off, so they must not agree with this position.
WALSH: — they are now kept. I don't know how they started
LOWRY: So you’re saying the gun position is sincere?
WALSH: — but they are kept.
LEMON: Do you know the definition of conflict of interest?
LOWRY: They’re saying —
WALSH: Huge conflict.
LOWRY: — no one’s sincere?
LEMON: Do you know the definition of conflict of interest?
LOWRY: No, look.
LEMON: No you don't the definition of conflict of interest?
LOWRY: No, no, no you believe none of these people are sincere? None of them think the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right
LEMON: I never said they weren't sincere. All I did was —
LOWRY: I don’t know what you’re saying.
LEMON: Here is what I'm saying. I put the information out there. Did you hear what I said?
LOWRY [SARCASTICALLY]: Right.
LEMON: Facts First.
LOWRY: Right.
LEMON: These are the facts. You make up your mind —
LEMON: But what — what you’re — okay. I'll —
LEMON: — so, if you think that getting —
LOWRY: But what are you suggesting?
LEMON: — thousands of dollars, millions of dollars doesn't influence someone, then you're sadly mistaken. Come on, Rich.
WALSH: There’s an alliance. There’s an alliance. There’s an alliance of all beliefs.
LOWRY: So you're saying they sincerely believed there are all sorts of gun control measures that will magically make these go away.
LEMON: No, I think you're doing the same thing — no, no, no. I think you’re doing the same thing now with me in the conversation as people who oppose sensible gun laws do. You go to extremes.
LOWRY: No!
LEMON: And you say things that people are not saying.
WALSH: That young man —
LEMON: You don't want to look at the facts —
LOWRY: No, that’s so — when you say —
LEMON: — because they don't line up with your ideology.
WALSH: That young man couldn't buy a beer couldn't buy a handgun —
LOWRY: — Paul Ryan is being bought off — bought off.
LEMON: No. I’m saying Paul Ryan has gotten 340 some odd thousand dollars —
WALSH: — but he could buy an AR-15.
LOWRY: So, what’s the consequences of that?
LEMON: — from the NRA. Then you —
LOWRY: Who do you think is being bought off? You think he’s being bought off.
LEMON: What do you think the consequences are? You tell me. You brought this up.
LEMON: No, I’m asking you. What do you think the consequences are?
LOWRY: You tell me. You brought this up.
LEMON: I am asking you. What do you think? What do you think it is?
LOWRY: So, you think he’s being bought off?
LEMON: No, I don’t think that.
LOWRY: I think he sincerely believes one in gun rights and two, that the kind of measures you have talked about in the program would have nothing to do with stopping the shootings.
WALSH: That’s not true.
LEMON: That is not true.
LOWRY: What univ — how does the universal background —
LEMON: That’s not true.
LOWRY: — check stop any of these shooting?
LEMON: Every single study shows — there is a new poll from Harvard that was printed in The New York Times yesterday. The only factor that separates us from other countries —
WALSH: Availability.
LEMON: — is the amount of guns and access to guns in this country.
LOWRY: Well, look. We had an assault weapons ban and the best research in the 90s —
LEMON: The time — there was a time —
LOWRY: — says it did nothing.
LEMON: — limit.
LOWRY: It's a cosmetic —
LEMON: There was a time limit.
LOWRY: — it's a cosmetic definition. Semiautomatic —
WALSH: There is debate on that.
LOWRY: — we have a ton of —
LEMON: That is not true.
LOWRY: We have a huge amount of —
LEMON: The facts don't show that.
LOWRY: — guns in this country are semiautomatic weapons. That’s a basic technology. If you want to ban all semiautomatic weapon, that is enormous prohibition. To have to make any difference, you probably have to go and confiscate them.
LEMON: That is, again, an extreme —
LOWRY: And then you'll have enormous Second Amendment problems.
LEMON: — that’s not what any one is saying. No one is saying ban all semiautomatic
LOWRY: Well, see this is your contradiction.
LEMON: No. It is not my contradiction.
LOWRY: Yes, it is.
LEMON: I sit here to have a conversation to talk about it and to actually do something about it. I gave you facts about what most Americans want. Most Americans want a ban on semiautomatic weapons. Most want a ban on assault weapons.
LOWRY: But that won’t stop school shootings. Just polling doesn’t — see, there is no magic solution, Don.
LEMON: Most Americans —
WALSH [ABOUT LEMON]: You weren’t saying there’s a magical solution.
LEMON: — vote for people. That doesn’t mean that they’re going to —
LEMON: This is the problem with gun controllers, okay? You can either say there are minor things that work where suggesting universal background check. Those would make no difference or you actually advocate something on large scale [WALSH GROANS] that might make a difference.
LEMON: But it doesn’t make a difference.
LEMON: But you're — but most gun controllers are afraid.
LEMON: Unless you try. How do you know it doesn't make a difference?
LOWRY: Okay. What shooting would a universal background check —
LEMON: You can’t even take the — why can’t you even take the baby steps!
LOWRY: — what mass shooting — what mass shooting — what mass shooting?
LEMON: Why can’t you take the basic steps?
LOWRY: Because most of this —
WALSH: This young man was known to the police. The police came to his house multiple times and he got a gun when he turned 18.
LOWRY: I agree. There should be more intervention. There should be — there should be more.
WALSH: There should be matching — mental health and police records with guns.
LOWRY: It should be easier compel treatment for people who are seriously mentally ill —
WALSH: And shouldn’t have guns.
LOWRY: — and obviously we need more intervention for people who are on the borderline.
LEMON: Should they be able to get guns?
LOWRY: If they haven't been adjudicated, gun ownership is an individual right. If I said to you, Don, the media is part of the problem here.
LEMON: So, should this —
LOWRY: We need to ban the media from talking about —
LEMON: Should this kid —
LOWRY: — these shootings you would say, Rich —
LEMON: — should this kid —
LOWRY: — there is a First Amendment right, you can't do that. That is the way this country works. There is a Bill of Rights.
LEMON: Yes, there is a Bill of Rights. But then if Congress or someone decided to do something about that, then we could talk about that.
LOWRY: To do something about the Bill of Rights?
LEMON: Yeah.
LOWRY: To do what about the Bill of Rights?
LEMON: To something about — if — if you —
WALSH: Talking about the availability of guns.
LEMON: — if you want to have a convers —
LOWRY: What do you want to do to the Bill of Rights? Now we’re —
WALSH: We’re not saying that.
LOWRY: You just said it.
LEMON: There is nothing that stops people
LOWRY: What do you want to do about the Bill of Rights?
LEMON: — from having conversations about it. How much does the President —
LOWRY: Ok, we're having a conversation.
LEMON: Listen to me! Stop! Don't over talk me. The President talks about all the time the media. He hates the media. He is upset about the media —
LOWRY: Yeah, yeah, I know that.
LEMON: — has a conversation about the media. The sheriff today says please media don't put the camera on anybody's face. Did anyone say: “Ohhh, oh my gosh! No! Please stop doing it!”
LOWRY: But if they proposed a law —
LEMON: No, we are free to talk about it.
LOWRY: — if they proposed a law, a lot of people would rightly say, sorry, there is a First Amendment. If you want to change —
LEMON: But this is America
LOWRY: — the Second Amendment, fine. Let's have that debate.
LEMON: If someone wants to try to propose a law, let them do it. Fine. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.
LOWRY: Sure. So, you want to change the Second Amendment?
LEMON: I’m not. [GROANS]
WALSH: He didn't say that.
LOWRY: Ok what are you saying?
LEMON: I never said I wanted to change the Second Amendment.
LOWRY: Okay.
LEMON: Again, that is your extreme argument, because —
WALSH [GROANS]: It always goes there.
LEMON: — you don't want to take you don't want to take the small steps to try to figure out how to stop what happened.
LOWRY: That’s now what I’m saying, Don.
LEMON: Yes. It’s exactly what you're saying. No, you’re saying that I want to — I want to —
LOWRY: I'll say it again and then I'll stop —
LEMON: No one has ever said that. What we said —
LOWRY: — and let you say it.
LEMON: — no. I’ll said it. Let me say it again.
LOWRY: Ok.
LEMON: What we said was we gave the facts on how much money gun lobbyist are offering these people who are in Congress who are lawmakers and who then refuse to do anything at all about gun violence in this.
LOWRY: I get that.
LEMON: That is the fact.
LOWRY: Ok.
LEMON: You took it to an extreme
LOWRY: No.
LEMON: — saying I want to get rid of the Second Amendment, people who want sensible gun laws want to get rid of the Second Amendment and there is nothing that can be done about, that is extreme.
LOWRY: Okay so what I said, you threw out this numbers. I think most people —
LEMON: I didn't threw out the numbers, those are facts.
LOWRY: Okay, right. I know. That’s fine.
LEMON: I'm not throwing them out.
WALSH: They are real.
LEMON: Those are real numbers.
LOWRY: Whatever verb you want to use. You told people about these numbers, but I'm saying if most —
LEMON: Facts are nouns. They’re not verbs. Go on.
LOWRY: Okay. Well throwing is a verb. But let's not get grammatical here. So, I'm saying people like Paul Ryan are sincere in their convictions and I'm quite certain he believed the same things about guns even before he ran for Congress.
LEMON: That doesn't mean he’s right.
LOWRY: That is true.
LEMON: That doesn’t mean he’s right.
LEMON: That is true. That’s a different discussion.
WALSH: He won't bring up bump stock legislation and he won't even bring up sensible things that there’s a bipartisan consensus on.
LEMON: And is the nail on the — thank you, Joan. Go on. That is the nail on the head.
WALSH: He blocks everything. He has total control and he is — he is beholden to the NRA. He believes it.
LOWRY: But most — most of the things you bring up just wouldn't stop the shootings and, look. They’re horrific.
WALSH: It would stop some shootings.
LOWRY: We should be focused on them. We should fortify schools to a further degree.
WALSH: They might have.
LEMON: No. This is a circular argument. Do you think that the young man in Florida should have had this gun?
LOWRY: No, but you can't. [LEMON LAUGHS] But of course not.
WALSH: Good.
LOWRY: I don't want murderers to have guns.
LEMON [GROANS]: Oh my gosh. So then — again —
LOWRY: But what law —
WALSH: We agree.
LEMON: That is good. Now we agree.
LOWRY: — what law would you pass under these circumstances.
LEMON: So let's have a conversation so then what next?
LOWRY: Okay, so what law can you pass that would prevent him from having a gun?
LEMON: Ok. Then that is the conversation.
LOWRY: What is it? Tell me.
LEMON: That’s the conversation.
LOWRY: Tell me.
LEMON: I'm not a lawmaker.
LOWRY: Let’s have a conversation.
LEMON: Okay. That’s exactly — so you —
WALSH: Much more stringent background checks.
LOWRY: You know what the problem is?
LEMON: So, you refuse to allow —
LOWRY: You refuse to answer my question.
WALSH: Much more stringent background checks.
LEMON: There is an answer to that question. There is an answer to that and it’s not necessarily passing laws or what have you. But there is an answer to that question.
LOWRY: Well, if you want to say people around him should have been more concerned, I mean obviously —
LEMON: Well, to your estimation.
LOWRY: — they were concerned to some degree already calling the police.
LEMON: Yes.
LOWRY: And they shouldn't have allowed him to have this gun and they should have taken it away. I would completely agree with that.
LEMON: Rich, you refuse to have any conversation about any sensible gun conversations.
LOWRY: I love having conversation. We're having a debate.
LEMON: You refuse to even —
LOWRY: It's feisty.
LEMON: — you refuse to even —
LOWRY: I'm enjoying it.
LEMON: — you refuse to even have our lawmakers take on possible legislation for sensible gun legislation.
LOWRY: I'm all in favor of debate.
WALSH: But not the legislation.
LEMON: So —
LOWRY: Right.
LEMON: — so, to answer my question, no, you’re not.
LOWRY: So, univers —
LEMON: So, there is nothing we can do. It ends there. It’s — we're done.
LOWRY: No. We should try to do things. We should try to do measures to stop this from happening. What I'm saying is, you can —
LEMON: I don't think you know what you're saying.
LOWRY: — it’s called common sense — sure I do.
LEMON: No, you don't. I don't think you know what you're saying.
LOWRY: What you call common sense gun legislation are minor matters that do not, in most cases interact, with the shootings. What you could propose is something much more wide ranging and I’m, saying that —
LEMON: Would you say that to the face of the mom who is on here earlier with her 17-year-old?
WALSH: The politics are changing on this.
LEMON: That these are minor matters?
LOWRY: Well, look, my heart goes out to them.
WALSH: These students are going out and will be activist and vote against guns.
LOWRY: But that doesn’t change the facts.
WALSH: These students are going to change the world. They were chanting no more guns. This debate is opening, Rich. You’re not seeing it.
LOWRY: But we’re never going to have a situation where you have no more guns. Sorry.
LEMON: No one says we should have no more guns.
LOWRY: I — well, Joan was just —
WALSH: — they meant no more guns in schools. They —
LOWRY: Okay. Well, that — I mean, I support keeping guns out of school and if there are ways to do it, let's do it.
WALSH: The point is politics are changing and these kids are going to change it.
LEMON: Yeah. Thank you. That was lively.
WALSH: That was fun.
LEMON: I appreciate it.
LOWRY: We'll discuss grammar a little bit more next time.
LEMON: Ah well, facts are nouns.
