Appearing on Tuesday’s Hardball as both an MSNBC political analyst and Hillary Clinton supporter, former Democratic Vermont Governor Howard Dean firmly defended Clinton’s repeated attacks on his home state for not having strict gun control laws and contributing to Vermont guns being used to commit violent crimes in New York.
This defense of his beloved candidate came despite the fact that, as host Chris Matthews, explained, The Washington Post found Clinton’s claims to be unfair and having “creat[ed] a significantly misleading impression to the public.”
When Matthews first went to Sanders campaign senior adviser Tad Devine for reaction, Devine backed up the Post fact-checker and noted that of the 4,500 plus guns that were traced to other states in a New York crime study, only “55 of them came from Vermont.”
Further, Devine added that since it’s difficult to separate out which were used for, say, a murder and so Clinton’s attacks on Vermont have been “terribly misleading.”
Matthews then turned to Dean and wondered: “[D]id you feel you were the arsenal of criminology or crime in New York City? Did you feel that your state was feeding guns down across the northern border?”
As a faithful Clinton subject, Dean promptly threw the state he governed from 1991 to 2003 under the bus in his next two answers:
Well, they do, actually. We do. Except that it's misleading in the sense that while we are the highest per capita exporter of guns, that's because Vermont is so small, but Bernie's real problem is his vote against the loss — against the ability to sue gun companies...It is not the largest exporter of guns, but there are a significant amount of guns bought in New York....[A]gain, I don't think this is an article about semantics. This is a problem because Hillary is to the left of Bernie ono this particular issue.
The usually bombastic host was left speechless and turned to MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid to joke about whether or not Clinton was trying to instill a “Vermont guilt” on the Green Mountain State:
MATTHEWS: Joy, I’ve heard of Catholic guilt, I think Tad and I know a lot about it. I know about Jewish guilt cause. my friends tell me about it. Is this Vermont guilt we're being accused of here?
JOY REID: That's going to be a hashtag...somebody is hashtaging Vermont guilt right this instant. I think what you see here is an example of the dangers of talking around an attack, right?
Naturally, Matthews didn’t disappoint when he recovered to mock Clinton’s imagery of guns flowing to New York and being the bane of their crime problems to Mexico being a home base for drug trafficking:
MATTHEWS: Vermont is now like the Mexico for drugs. It’s the home base of all bad guns. Has Hillary overstepped here? Your objective, yes or no.
REID: Yes,
MATTHEWS: Can you help me out here? Particularly, is Hillary overstating the charge? Is she overcharging Vermont as the source of the gun battles, that crimes down in New York. Everybody knows that.
REID: Yeah, absolutely.
Matthews followed up later on before shifting gears by humorously asking Dean about what was his biggest haul when hunting (if he’s ever done so):
MATTHEWS: What's the biggest mammal you've ever killed?
DEAN: Oh, I don't know. Probably a duck or something. I don't know.
MATTHEWS: That’s a great answer.
The relevant portions of the transcript from MSNBC’s Hardball on April 12 can be found below.
MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews
April 12, 2016
7:04 p.m. Eastern
CHRIS MATTHEWS: Anyway, a fact checker at The Washington Post points out that Vermont’s small population skews the numbers that Clinton is using there, quote, “we do not find it as a fair assessment into New York. The difference between this point using per capita calculations and the raw number...is so stark that it creates a significantly misleading impression to the public.” Tad, do you want to back that up?
TAD DEVINE: You better believe it. Listen, there are over 4,500 guns in that reference that she made. 55 of them came from Vermont. Okay?
MATTHEWS: That were used in violent crimes.
DEVINE: That were — most of them were the crime was possession of a firearm, okay. We can't tell whether any was used in a murder, but you know, it's terribly misleading. If you've got a candidate whose problem is credibility, I would suggest don’t have her out there attacking on things that aren’t credible at all.
MATTHEWS: Let me go back to Howard. Governor Dean, I’ll get to you Joy in a minute, but Governor Dean, did you feel you were the arsenal of criminology or crime in New York City? Did you feel that your state was feeding guns down across the northern border?
HOWARD DEAN: Well, they do, actually. We do. Except that it's misleading in the sense that while we are the highest per capita exporter of guns, that's because Vermont is so small, but Bernie's real problem is his vote against the loss — against the ability to sue gun companies. What he needs to apologize for that as Hillary had to apologize for Iraq and if I were Berie's campaign, not that I should give advice to Tad, who’s right here and is a very able guy, I would stop talking about guns. That does not help Bernie in New England and northeastern primaries.
MATTHEWS: Well, question to both of you. Is Vermont and its laws on guns significantly responsible for the crime rate in New York City?
DEVINE: No, not at all.
MATTHEWS: Okay. Governor Howard Dean, is Vermont significantly responsible for the crime in New York used by guns with the use of guns?
DEAN: It is not the largest exporter of guns, but there are a significant amount of guns bought in New York. There’s a lot more guns from Virginia, for example, that are illegally purchased that end up in New York, but again, I don't think this is an article about semantics. This is a problem because Hillary is to the left of Bernie ono this particular issue. Look, here is the other problem. I got eight endorsements in a row from the NRA. I got off the NRA vote after Newtown, after Wayne LaPierre made his spitting the speech about this is all fine and good, we're not going give up our right to bear arms. I concluded that the National Rifle Association did not represent reasonable, thoughtful gun owners, and the NRA’s become a right-wing extremist group. That's when I left the NRA and I think if you're going to run for national office, you probably have to do that.
MATTHEWS: Joy, I’ve heard of Catholic guilt, I think Tad and I know a lot about it. I know about Jewish guilt cause. my friends tell me about it. Is this Vermont guilt we're being accused of here?
JOY REID: That's going to be a hashtag.
MATTHEWS: That Vermont is now like the Mexico for drugs. It’s the home base of all bad guns. Has Hillary overstepped here? Your objective, yes or no.
REID: Yes, somebody is hashtaging Vermont guilt right this instant. I think what you see here is an example of the dangers of talking around an attack, right?
MATTHEWS: Can you help me out here? Particularly, is Hillary overstating the charge? Is she overcharging Vermont as the source of the gun battles, that crimes down in New York. Everybody knows that.
REID: Yeah, absolutely.
(....)
DEAN: Look, here is the deal. In Vermont, most NRA members are perfectly, fine, normal people who don't think you need bazooka to blow off a deer. The NRA, as a national group, is not that way and when you get to Washington, everything changes. So we all get endorsed. Pat Leahy gets endorsed, I got endorsed, Bernie gets endorsed by the NRA because local people get us. We understand hunting and it's true. We don't have any gun laws. When you get to national politics, the gun lobby is a group of lunatics and I mean, you know, what Wayne LaPierre did after Newtown was outrageous and I don’t know how —
MATTHEWS: What's the biggest mammal you've ever killed?
DEAN: Oh, I don't know. Probably a duck or something. I don't know.
MATTHEWS: That’s a great answer.
