Who did Amanpour & Co. invite on to discuss the supposed “Christian Nationalism” running rampant within Project 2025, the feared, loathed, seldom read presidential blueprint issued by the Heritage Foundation? Nobody but Kristin Kobes Du Mez, the author of something called Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation.
Bianna Golodryga was the fill-in host on Christiane Amanpour’s political talk show (whose episodes run on tax-funded PBS after first airing on CNN International) and set up the interview between liberal author Kristin Kobes Du Mez and liberal journalist Michel Martin by borrowing Du Mez's subtitle: “Historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez tells Michel Martin how white evangelicals how white evangelicals have corrupted a faith and fractured a nation.”
Golodryga justified the show's paranoid liberal focus on Project 2025 by noting “the contributors of the conservative playbook include some of [Trump’s closest political advisers, as well as organizations with Christian nationalist leanings.”
Martin confirmed the show’s producers had booked Du Mez as a voice known to be hostile to her idea of “Christian Nationalism.”
Michel Martin: I want to focus our conversation on Project 2025, but before we get into that, I did just want to get your take on the Republican Convention. One of the reasons we called you is that we last spoke with you about your 2020 book, "Jesus and John Wayne," and you argued that -- in that book, you argued that modern American evangelicalism has kind of replaced the Jesus of the Gospels with an idol of kind of rugged masculinity and Christian nationalism. Did you see that playing out over the course of the convention week?
Du Mez: Absolutely. That really is the vision. It's not a deep theological vision. It's a vision for a Christian America, kind of need to put that in quotes, Christian America. A vision of the country that says this country belongs to some people, but not to all people. It's a vision of America that draws a stark boundary between real Americans, those who are on God's side, who are trying to restore Christian America, and enemies and threats to America, to this vision for Christian America. And that is an ideology that has run through conservative evangelicalism….
The talk turned to Project 2025.
Du Mez: [It’s] pretty much a conservative political playbook, although, more extreme than we've often seen in recent years. But it also brings together a proposal to essentially restructure the federal government….a tool to completely restructure the government to give more power to the executive….it's worth noting that many of the conservative organizations that have either contributed to or signed on to Project 2025 are distinctly Christian organizations…. here you can see the Christian Nationalist agenda is then going to be placed in the hands of an executive with unprecedented power….
Du Mez warned of the horrible policies in the document, including “restricting the anti-abortion pill, mifepristone” and restricting the mailing of contraceptives. Then Martin took the common-sense idea that children are better off with a mother and father into an establishment of a state religion.
Martin: In some of these proposals, there really is an explicitly Christian tone or Christian Nationalist tone in their Mandate for Leadership. For example, in their plans for the Department of Health and Human Services, it emphasizes maintaining a "biblically based definition of marriage and family," as it states, "for the sake of child wellbeing, programs should affirm that children require and deserve both the love and nurturing of a mother and the play and protection of a father."
OK. That is a point of view, but we have a very long-established principle here of, avoiding the establishment of kind of a state religion. How would this pass muster in the courts?....
A transcript is available, click “Expand.”
Amanpour & Co.
7/24/24
2:07:26 a.m. (ET)
GOLODRYGA: Returning now back to the U.S. where the political blueprint for the next Republican president, Project 2025, has drawn criticism, not only from the Democrats, but also from Donald Trump himself, calling the 900-page document "seriously extreme." Yet, the contributors of the conservative playbook include some of his closest political advisers, as well as organizations with Christian nationalist leanings. Historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez speaks to Michel Martin about the rise of evangelicalism in politics and the impact it could have on American democracy.
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Kristin Kobes Du Mez, thank you so much for talking with us once again.
KRISTIN KOBES DU MEZ, AUTHOR, "JESUS AND JOHN WAYNE": Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: So, I want to focus our conversation on Project 2025, but before we get into that, I did just want to get your thoughts. Take on the Republican Convention. One of the reasons we called you is that we last spoke with you about your 2020 book, "Jesus and John Wayne," and you argued that -- in that book, you argued that modern American evangelicalism has kind of replaced the Jesus of the gospels with an idol of kind of rugged masculinity and Christian nationalism. Did you see that playing out over the course of the convention week?
DU MEZ: Absolutely. You know, that really is the vision. It's not a deep theological vision. "It's a vision for a Christian America," kind of need to put that in quotes, Christian America vision of the country that says this country belongs to some people, but not to all people. It's a vision of America that draws a stark boundary between real Americans, those who are on God's side, who are trying to restore Christian America, and enemies and threats to America, to this vision for Christian America.
And that is an ideology that has run through conservative evangelicalism. You can see it also in conservative Catholicism in some places, in the Pentecostal charismatic tradition that's really been cultivated for half a century now. If you look back to the rise of the Christian right, you can see this, a very us versus them mentality that depicts kind of the Christians ought to have control of this country and anybody who threatens that control is seen as an enemy. And that's the kind of theology that plays very well to Donald Trump.
Because he has promised to protect Christianity, right? His words. He has promised to be their ultimate fighting champion and to battle ruthlessly for, you know, presumably their vision, which aligns with his vision, which is an open question, but that's who he has promised to be for them. And
that is really a key to understanding Christian support in this country for Donald Trump. They think he will fight for them and he will give power to them.
MARTIN: So, tell me about Project 2025. I mean, if people have been following the campaign closely, they may have heard of this. What is it and why do you think it's so important that we talk about it?
DU MEZ: Project 2025 is a lengthy document, around 900 pages, put together by the Heritage Foundation. And then, signed on to by over 100 conservative organizations, which essentially provides Trump or the next Trump administration with a blueprint or policy proposals and pretty much a conservative political playbook. Although, more extreme than we've often seen in recent years.
But it also brings together a proposal to essentially restructure the federal government. And that's what's key to understanding about Project 2025. It's not just the policy playbook, it's also a tool to completely restructure the government to give more power to the executive.
So, we've already seen the recent Supreme Court ruling that grants presidential immunity, and here we're seeing a playbook that is essentially going to hand considerable power across the executive branch, across federal agencies, and place that power entirely in the hands of the next president.
MARTIN: Why is this a particular concern of yours as a scholar of religion and theology? I mean, the Heritage Foundation isn't a religious organization. Why is it that you've spent so much focus and attention on this?
DU MEZ: First, it's worth noting that many of the conservative organizations that have either contributed to or signed on to Project 2025 are distinctly Christian organizations, and you've got Christian colleges like Liberty University and Patrick Henry College, and you do have Dobson's Family Institute signing on to this document. So, we have to think in terms of partnerships here.
A key person here, a key figure is Russell Vought. Russell Vought actually is a former Trump administration official in the office of management and budget, and he also was the director of the committee that wrote the Republican Party platform, right? So, there's very deep ties in the Trump administration and close connections to Trump.
He is also self-proclaimed Christian nationalist with very close ties to leading Christian nationalist voices in various denominations across this country. And Vought wrote the chapter on executive power. So, here you can see the Christian nationalist agenda is then going to be placed in the hands of an executive with unprecedented power.
And this is important because if you look at survey data on Christian nationalism, what you see is that the majority of Americans do not identify as Christian nationalists. The majority of Americans do not want a Christian nation, according to this framework. So, democracy is not going to get them to their end goal, but this kind of executive power grab may in fact accomplished -- accomplish what they are setting out to do.
MARTIN: It really envisions kind of a top to bottom overhaul of the federal government. What are some of the things that it proposes?
DU MEZ: First in terms of government structure. Really important here is it proposes essentially redefining thousands, probably tens of thousands of federal workers as political appointees. And so, the goal here is to install, some people suggest 20,000, some as many as 50,000 federal workers, civil servants, you essentially fire those who are currently staffing federal agencies and replacing them with Trump loyalists.
And in fact, part of Project 2025 is what people have referred to as a kind of conservative LinkedIn. And so, there's a recruitment database and online training to train ideologically and in terms of practical skills to staff a new federal government with loyalists to Trump across all agencies. And this includes the Department of Justice. And this is a really key point to understand in terms of the repercussions here.
Trump himself has made very plain that he wants to weaponize the Department of Justice and seize control over operations and then use that to seek retribution against his political enemies. Project 2025 gives him the game plan to achieve that goal.
And so, that's what we have in terms of government restructuring. There's much more on that front. But then in terms of policies, we have things about restricting the anti-abortion pill, mifepristone, for example, withdrawing FDA approval for that. Re-invoking the Comstock Act, going deep into American history there, which will prohibit the mailing of abortion pills, possibly also, depending how far they take it, to contraceptives, those sorts of things.
Anti-LGBTQ legislation, anti-DEI, proposals to prohibit their use of language, of words, in federal laws and regulations. Things like abortion, reproductive health, gender identity, gender equity, these sorts of terms are going to be canceled and not allowed in any federal laws or regulations. So, it really is expansive in scope.
MARTIN: In some of these proposals, there really isn't explicitly Christian tone or Christian nationalist tone in their mandate for leadership. For example, in the and plans for the Department of Health and Human Services, it emphasizes maintaining a "biblically based definition of marriage and family, "as it states, "for the sake of child wellbeing, programs should affirm that children require and deserve both the love and nurturing of a mother and the play and protection of a of a father."
OK. That is a point of view, but we have a very long-established principle here of avoiding the establishment of kind of a state religion. How would this pass muster in the courts? I mean, the courts have still upheld these long-held principles that suggest that you cannot advantage one religious view over others. How did -- how do they get around that?
DU MEZ: Yes, I'm really glad you pointed to that particular passage, which could have some real implications, obviously for same sex marriage, for adoption, even potentially for divorce. And so, that's really key. And it's rooting that proposal in what they claim to be biblical marriage, a biblical prescription for what marriage is and is not.
And there's another passage that is really important to understand the framework here. The idea that the constitution guarantees the freedom or liberty to do what one ought to do, not what one wants to do. And that really is foundation of Christian nationalism. Yes, you are free to obey God's laws. And we are going to structure this country around God's laws. And then they redefine rather than the right and to the pursuit of happiness, they say it's actually the pursuit of blessedness. And you are blessed when you obey these laws.
What are those laws? Well, this is where you can look at the whole conservative agenda here. It's going to be anti-abortion. It's going to be anti-LGBTQ. And so, these rights do not exist within their framework. And so, they are redefining our nation's constitution, reinterpreting it through this lens, that the only rights that are guaranteed are those that align with their understanding of God's law.
MARTIN: I think you still identify as a Christian. Would that be accurate?
DU MEZ: Yes, I do.
MARTIN: I'm just curious, like, why is this the version of Christianity that is ascendant now when so many other people have a different interpretation of it?
DU MEZ: So, there are many people who have said, are saying, you know, wait a minute. This does not align with how I understand Jesus words in the gospels. This is not under -- align with how I think we are called to be faithful in this world. But when you offer voices of opposition your chances are you're going to run up against some real opposition. And many conservative organizations are funded by powerful conservative donors. And this is true in higher education, and this is also true in term in the Christian nonprofit world. There are all kinds of pressures, the Christian media world, Christian music, right? It's very hard to find a Christian recording artist who will publicly call out some of these things, because if they do, their career is done.
At least they're not going to get any airtime on Christian radio, right? In terms of Christian publishing of a multibillion-dollar industry, we're talking. And I think people outside of Christian spaces or conservative spaces are not aware of this massive industry.
And so much money is changing hands here. And within that industry, there are political orthodoxies that you have to hold to. And if you cross any of those, right, you're not going to get the book contract, you're not going to get the record deal. And so, what we have is a kind of -- I mean, indoctrination may not be too strong of a word, but certainly, the cultivation of one particular way to be a Christian and closing off many of these other understandings of what it means to be a Christian in this country and in the world today.
MARTIN: Before I let you go, there is just one thing that I'm sort of just -- I still remain puzzled by, and that is Former Vice President Mike Pence.
There is no denying that he was a man of deep and sincere faith. OK. So, I'm just curious, like why the treatment of him isn't more resonant among other evangelicals. I mean, he's made it clear, he was very badly treated. I mean, there are people calling for him to be killed.
DU MEZ: Mike Pence is the perfect example, I think, of how a lot of conservative Christians and a large swath of conservative evangelicals have embraced a Christian nationalist agenda. And within that Christian nationalism, personal piety is not what makes somebody a great leader. Not at all. In fact, that might actually work against the person in terms of their leadership capacity.
What they want is a fighter. They want somebody who will fight their battles for them. They want somebody who will take on the left, the feminists, the, you know, woke ideology, and who will fight for them, who will protect them and who will advance their aims. And that is who Trump is and that's who Trump promised to be for them quite explicitly.
Now, back in 2016 it was kind of unproven territory at that time. It wasn't quite clear if conservative Christians would embrace a man like Trump who so clearly did not live up to any of their moral standards that they claim to hold so dear. This is the moral majority after all. These are family values voters, right?
And so, Mike Pence was maybe a bit of an insurance policy, or it wasn't quite clear that he didn't actually -- that Trump didn't need Mike Pence, because they were after the fighter. And Pence did not stand up and fight when it mattered for Trump, when it mattered to overturn the election, right? And so, Pence very much fell out of favor. A lot of conservative Christians I know say, oh, he's a good guy. You know, those who aren't rolling their eyes at him for being too weak might say he's a good guy, but he's just not what this country needs right now, right? We need a strong man. We need somebody who will do whatever it takes to preserve this nation and to restore their understanding of Christian America.
MARTIN: Is this a moment in time or is this something that is just -- has become such a feature of American Christianity that it is going to be a force for some time to come?
DU MEZ: You know, it's both. It's a culmination is what it feels like to me that this agenda is not new. These aspirations are -- we can trace back to the Heritage Foundation was founded in the 1970s, and the Christian right has been advancing this kind of mission for generations now. But this is very much a moment, because they are now poised to essentially take control of the country and the very mechanisms of our democracy. And that is what is new here. That is what is different.
And so, we -- you know, in the past, sometimes you had Ronald Reagan winning the White House and the Christian right is celebrating and the Heritage Foundation offers him a mandate for leadership, and we've had that in the past, but what we haven't had is this plan and a likelihood of them achieving this goal if they win the White House of completely restructuring our democracy, completely restructuring our federal government, and it's not clear what is on the other side of that. It's not clear if we will have another election where we can just reverse things or if that puts us on an entirely new trajectory in this country. And I think that's the real question when we look at Project 2025 and when we look at the November election.
MARTIN: Professor Kristin Kobes Du Mez, thanks so much for talking with us.
DU MEZ: Thanks so much for having me.
