On Wednesday's Amanpour & Co., simulcast on PBS and CNN International, Christiane Amanpour brought on former evangelical conservative Frank Schaeffer to complain about the pro-life evangelical movement that he helped found before turning liberal and spending his time trashing conservatives.
Amanpour set up the segment by recalling that her guest as a young man in the 1970s had influenced his father, evangelical leader Francis Schaeffer, to promote the abortion issue after the Roe v. Wade decision, but eventually regretted his involvement. She began by posing: "I'm correct in assuming -- because we stated it -- that you are now very regretful of your role in this movement?"
It didn't take long for the Nazi comparisons to come in part of his response:
I look back on what I did in my youth maybe I guess the way some people would at wartime experiences or political experiences -- maybe in the 1930s in Europe if they joined one of the fascist parties, lived to see it play out in a world war and what happened. I feel much that level of regret and culpability.
Amanpour alluded to her interview from the night before with pro-life activist Carrie Severino of the Judicial Crisis Network: "we spoke to the opposing view yesterday on this program. We gave her plenty of time to lay out her position, and she said, 'No, no, no, the fact that we don't want abortion doesn't mean that we're going to lobby to turn back, you know, gay marriage, interracial marriage, any of the other, you know, human rights issues that have been adjudicated by the Supreme Court." Do you believe that?'
Schaeffer an over-the-top prediction that America would become like Iran with racism added:
You know, you have an Iranian background. You are going to get these words. We are trying in this country to fight against people who are -- not just Democrats, but anybody who believes in democracy -- people who believe in a theocracy. And what these people want is a Christian white national version of what you have in Iran today and Saudi Arabia. And so if you want to live in that country, then that's where we're headed.
Amanpour gave no pushback as she concluded the segment. "It is really, really interesting and hugely instructive to hear this story. Thank you very much for being with us tonight."
By contrast, on the previous night, Amanpour had been more argumentative with her pro-life guest as she also gave a softer segment to liberal activist Gloria Steinem on the same night. When Severino said California's abortion laws were so permissive they allowed abortions after birth, Amanpour pounced.
"That is so extreme, Carrie, that it's really not worth bringing into this discussion," she said, "because Roe, let's just be clear for our viewers. No matter what you think about it politically or morally, Roe allows an abortion before viability, and not all nine months. So let's just make that very, very clear, because it's important." Severino said "that's not accurate," that Roe combined with Doe v. Bolton in 1973 allowed abortion on demand.
This segment was paid for in part by the Anderson Family Fund and the Straus Family Foundation. You can fight back by letting advertisers know how you feel about them sponsoring such content.
Transcript follows:
PBS and CNN International
Amanpour & Co.
May 4, 2022
11:03 p.m. Eastern
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Evangelical Christian groups have rallied to limit access to abortion for years, but it wasn't always a political issue for them. Enter Francis Schaeffer, an evangelical scholar. His son Frank encouraged him to campaign against Roe versus Wade with Christian literature and movies that they were producing. It is an extraordinary story, for without the :Schaeffers this culture war might not have been so fired up. And Frank is joining me now from Boston. ... I'm correct in assuming -- because we stated it -- that you are now very regretful of your role in this movement?
FRANK SCHAEFFER, LIBERAL ACTIVIST: Yes, I am. It's like hearing about someone else's life conducted on a different planet, you know. I did my work with my father and the pro-life movement in the 1970s. I'm now pushing 70 years old -- this is 50 years ago -- and as I look back, I can only say not only do I regret the impact we had, of course, was completely unforeseen up to and including the murder of abortion doctors, the fact that now it looks like Roe v. Wade will be rolled back by a Supreme Court dominated by Republican operatives that have taken what we did back in the 1970s and extrapolated that out into a future 50 years later that I found shocking.
I would describe myself as a progressive -- someone with liberal political views. I'm a father and grandfather, and from this perspective in my life, I look back on what I did in my youth maybe I guess the way some people would at wartime experiences or political experiences -- maybe in the 1930s in Europe if they joined one of the fascist parties, lived to see it play out in a world war and what happened. I feel much that level of regret and culpability.
(...)
AMANPOUR: I do think something is extraordinary that maybe our viewers won't remember -- that also Falwell and the Moral Majority, they were trying to oust from power and deny a second term to then-President Jimmy Carter. They were trying to get Ronald Reagan. And, of course, Jimmy Carter was the first evangelical Christian to be President. You would think they would like that. What's that weird twist? Why were they, you know, so focused on getting him out and Reagan in?
SCHAEFFER: Well, Jimmy Carter was too decent a human being. He was compassionate to women -- he was pro-choice, he was not a racist, he believed in integration. He wanted to increase voter rights for African Americans. Jerry Falwell was a segregationist, he was a far-right-winger. He was a homophobe and a nasty piece of work. It's as simple as that. So, basically, Jerry Falwell and these other guys could not manipulate Jimmy Carter.
He was an evangelical Christian and a Bible teacher literally in Sunday school, but he was, in their view, the wrong kind of Christian because they had already so politicized their version of the Gospel that they were far more interested in the politics than they were, if you want to put it in evangelical terms, sharing the love of Jesus. This is not what interested these guys anymore.
They wanted to win elections -- they wanted access to power -- and they got it. And of course in Donald Trump, you have the apostasy of this 50 years later where this group -- not these individual people but the group that they left behind -- became totally politicized so they no longer are even a religion anymore, but a political movement of the far right.
(...)
AMANPOUR: You know, you're very passionate now. You obviously regret deeply, you know, how your talent got the U.S. to this point in terms of the culture war, but what do you think will happen next? Because we spoke to the opposing view yesterday on this program. We gave her plenty of time to lay out her position, and she said, "No, no, no, the fact that we don't want abortion doesn't mean that we're going to lobby to turn back, you know, gay marriage, interracial marriage, any of the other, you know, human rights issues that have been adjudicated by the Supreme Court." Do you believe that?
SCHAEFFER: Of course not. Look at Gorsuch. Look at these people who sat there in the Senate confirmation hearings and looked right into the eyes of the Senators and said, "We believe that this is a stated principle that will not change." They gave their word -- they said they would not change it. These are people who are political ideologues.
And the same ideology that takes away the right to choose is going to take away the right to gay marriage. The same ideology that is changing the law in state house after state house in favor of Republicans not only gerrymandering, but the kind of thing Donald Trump said where he's still claiming to be President somehow, that the vote was stolen, and all of a sudden voting rights themselves are in question.
If you had gone back 40 years ago and asked Gerald Ford or any of these people, "Are you ever going to be part of a Republican party that's going to push against voting rights for African Americans?" they would have said that that's never going to happen. It's happening now. And so if anyone thinks that these people -- I have to explain something to you. You know, you have an Iranian background. You are going to get these words. We are trying in this country to fight against people who are -- not just Democrats, but anybody who believes in democracy -- people who believe in a theocracy. And what these people want is a Christian white national version of what you have in Iran today and Saudi Arabia. And so if you want to live in that country, then that's where we're headed.
AMANPOUR: Frank Schaeffer, you were there at the beginning. It's really, really interesting, and hugely instructive to hear this story. Thank you very much for being with us tonight.
