MSNBC’s Stephanie Ruhle marked the passing of Pope Francis on Monday’s The 11th Hour by welcoming historian Jon Meacham to “juxtapose” how “this anti-immigrant movement has risen up” during Francis’s pontificate.
Before that, however, there is the question of Meacham’s credentials. Ruhle introduced him as “the first canon historian for the Washington National Cathedral,” but the National Cathedral is not Catholic but Episcopalian, and the Episcopalian Church is quite liberal and shrinking.
As it was, Meacham declared, “And that as we went through last week, hearing once again Jesus saying on the night he was handed over to suffering and death, and the words of the right he was, he ordered, commanded us to love one another as I have loved you. And I think that was the guiding star for this pope.”
That led Ruhle to turn to politics, “Blessed are the meek. Juxtapose that, though, Jon, with how different that is with where we are as a society right now. Not just Americans, but Europeans, around the world. How this anti-immigrant movement has risen up. Well, you have a pope who over and over made it his mission to talk about the importance of protecting those who are most vulnerable.”
Ruhle would never describe unborn babies as society’s “most vulnerable.” She also wants an overly simplistic immigration debate. She doesn’t want to talk about the impacts heavy amounts of Islamic immigration have had on Europe. She doesn’t want to discuss the consequences of having chaos at the border and how that allows bad actors to enter undetected or about respect for the law.
As for Meacham, he tried to be more philosophical, “Well, you have, you know, democracy and Christianity. And this is not to get into Christian Nationalism and the often unhealthy blending of faith and power politics, but democracy and Christianity have a great deal in common. It requires us to see one another as fellow children of God.”
He added, “And that may sound grand or soft somehow, but that is in fact the motive force of democracy. If I don't respect you and your dignity before the law, and you don't respect mine, then we fall into a state of nature. We fall into a struggle, a constant battle to get what we want. And the message both of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament is that you can't simply take everything you want when you want it, that there is, in fact, a hierarchy of affections, that we have to control our appetites. And in doing so, we all have a better chance of filling those appetites. So it's not just about being great people, but it is about seeing one another in a way that enables us to, at least, if we don’t love our neighbor, we should at least try.”
That sounds nice, but immigration policy is a little more nuanced than anyone who shows up claiming poverty gets in and anyone who dissents doesn’t love their neighbor.
Here is a transcript for the April 21 show:
MSNBC The 11th Hour with Stephanie Ruhle
4/21/2025
11:51 PM ET
JON MEACHAM: And that as we went through last week, hearing once again Jesus saying on the night he was handed over to suffering and death, and the words of the right, he was, he ordered, commanded us to love one another as I have loved you. And I think that was the guiding star for this pope.
STEPHANIE RUHLE: Blessed are the meek. Juxtapose that, though, Jon, with how different that is with where we are as a society right now. Not just Americans, but Europeans, around the world. How this anti-immigrant movement has risen up. Well, you have a pope who over and over made it his mission to talk about the importance of protecting those who are most vulnerable.
MEACHAM: Well, you have, you know, democracy and Christianity. And this is not to get into Christian Nationalism and the often unhealthy blending of faith and power politics, but democracy and Christianity have a great deal in common. It requires us to see one another as fellow children of God.
And that may sound grand or soft somehow, but that is in fact the motive force of democracy. If I don't respect you and your dignity before the law, and you don't respect mine, then we fall into a state of nature. We fall into a struggle, a constant battle to get what we want. And the message both of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament is that you can't simply take everything you want when you want it. That there is, in fact, a hierarchy of affections, that we have to control our appetites. And in doing so, we all have a better chance of filling those appetites. So it's not just about being great people, but it is about seeing one another in a way that enables us to, at least, if we don’t love our neighbor, we should at least try.
