National Review editor-in-chief Rich Lowry had the unenviable task of having to educate the cast of Friday’s CNN This Morning that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were not intended to perpetuate slavery and that the founding was not racist, but he still managed to perform the task quite well.
First, in the 6:00 Eastern hour, co-host Phil Mattingly gave a monologue on recent comments by GOP presidential candidate Nikki Haley that the country was not racist to begin with, “Now the intent, and its overarching role in U.S. history, is hardly that clear cut. In fact, the actual history seems to directly undercut that contention on some level. That's not an attack on the Founding Fathers, nor is it some inflammatory statement calling into question the soul of the nation. It's history.”
After going through the inglorious side of Thomas Jefferson and noting “at least 30 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence owned slaves,” Mattingly got to the Constitution, “During the Constitutional Convention in 1787, the Founders included the three-fifths compromise as a clause that found enslaved blacks in any state would be counted as three-fifths the number of white residents. It took 81 years, a civil war, and the 14th Amendment to change that.”
Mattingly omits that if slaves were counted as one person then slave states would have had more power, but in the 7:00 hour he and fellow co-host Poppy Harlow welcomed Lowry and CNN contributor Cari Champion for further discussion.
Ignoring that he just said that racism is in the founding documents, Mattingly wondered what the big deal is, “You can acknowledge what happened in the past and not undercut the founding... Like you're not trying to offend people if you're saying Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.”
Lowry replied, “Of course. And she said last night, we've overcome things” and after acknowledging Haley made a gaffe when she previously didn’t mention slavery as a cause of the Civil War, urged people to be charitable when interrupting her latest comments, “I think for a well-intentioned person, it's clear what she means what she's saying now.”
Unwilling to be charitable, Champion answered back, “Well, intentions don't -- they don't work for me. You know what I mean? It's just insulting, quite frankly. You cannot run for -- to be the president of the United States of America and not acknowledge its history clearly, plainly, concretely.”
Champion further claimed “the precepts of this country that were racist.”
Lowry then initiated an exchange to see if Champion actually believed that, “Precepts, like all men are created equal, is racist? It wasn't racist. Now they made an accommodation to a fact on the ground that they assumed would go away.”
Champion would affirm, “All men were not created equal, and you know that.” After ping-ponging back and forth some more, she cited Mattingly’s earlier monologue, “The Constitution, literally -- and you laid this out perfectly, Phil, earlier, the Constitution was very clear that there was a three-fifths clause for people who were not free. So how are we all created equal?”
Lowry shot back, “And the idea was extremely powerful and has done more to define American history than the racism.”
He also gave a little history lesson, “And look, they assumed, they were wrong, that slavery would go away. So, they weren't going to mention it in the Constitution and hope eventually progress would erode it. And in the immediate aftermath of the Revolution, race relations got better. You know, the north -- you had many missions, statues in the north. What happened, there was terrible backsliding in the South eventually in the 19th century. And then we have a terrible Civil War over it.”
Champion had no good comeback to that so she played the “agree to disagree card” because “my experience is very different.”
After some more Haley talk, Lowry declared, “This is not a fundamentally racist country. Why did Indian immigrants come here and thrive? Why did black immigrants come here and thrive, Asian immigrants come here and thrive?”
Talking over him, Champion claimed that “This is absolutely a fundamentalist racist country. We don't all thrive. We are not created equal. We are not the same.”
Getting the Founder’s definition of equality all wrong, Champion added, “Physically, sure, we can walk and we can move and we can say and we can do. But the world in which I live in is not going to be the same world that you live in. The way that I experience America is not going to be the way that you experience.”
Lowry kept pressing her and eventually Champion unwittingly found herself agreeing with Haley, “The truth is, is that my experience is going to be different than your experience. And as a black woman in this country, I can tell you I have not been created equal, I haven’t been treated equal, rather in very many instances. Nikki can believe what you want.”
Lowry then pointed out, “She said the same thing… She said she experienced racism and you shouldn't -- the country's not defined by that, people shouldn't be defined by that and you can overcome it. That seems an uplifting message, a fundamentally American message to me.”
Not being willing to accept defeat, Champion claimed that Haley’s message was one “of erasure.”
Here is a transcript for the January 19 show:
CNN This Morning
1/19/2024
6:41 AM ET
PHIL MATTINGLY: Now the intent, and its overarching role in U.S. history, is hardly that clear cut. In fact, the actual history seems to directly undercut that contention on some level. That's not an attack on the Founding Fathers, nor is it some inflammatory statement calling into question the soul of the nation. It's history. It's history based on facts. Facts like the author of those words, Thomas Jefferson, drafted that document while simultaneously owning people. Throughout his lifetime he enslaved 600 human beings. At any given time, there were more than 130 slaves at Monticello.
But what about the signatories underneath the Declaration of Independence. That document states unequivocally that all men are created equal as cited by Haley. At least 30 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence owned slaves. That's well over half of the signatories and a dozen U.S. presidents owned slaves as well.
But slavery wasn't embedded in the U.S. history just through its Founders. It was in its founding documents. During the Constitutional Convention in 1787, the Founders included the three-fifths compromise as a clause that found enslaved blacks in any state would be counted as three-fifths the number of white residents. It took 81 years, a civil war, and the 14th Amendment to change that.
Look, this isn't some kind of history lesson the 150 years that followed the Civil War laid bare in a visceral way, just how much more work was left to do and how much work remains today.
So, why do these specific comments matter? Because on some level they capture a prevalent and pained effort to balance acknowledgment of clearly documented history while simultaneously not puncturing some sort of myth of infallibility about those who created the country.
The most confounding thing about that is that those same men never claimed to have created some kind of perfect union. Far from it. The ability to strive towards that aspiration, even amid clear failings, that hardly seems to be an indictment. In fact, that seems to be what the country's all about. Poppy.
…
7:09 AM ET
MATTINGLY: I think you make an interesting point and this is why I've been a little stuck on how this keeps becoming a little bit of an issue for her. You can acknowledge what happened in the past and not undercut the founding -- either the founding fathers, the ideals of the country, the continuous evolution, trying to become a more perfect union, and yet it seems-- people seem to get stuck on it. Like you're not trying to offend people if you're saying Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.
RICH LOWRY: Of course. And she said last night, we've overcome things.
MATTINGLY: Yeah. Yeah. No, question.
LOWRY: Obviously. No one really denies that. So, look, she got in a space where the slavery thing was a flat out gaffe and there's just no way to explain how she couldn't have a decent answer to that, but I think for a well-intentioned person, it's clear what she means what she's saying now.
CARI CHAMPION: Well, intentions don't -- they don't work for me. You know what I mean? It's just insulting, quite frankly. You cannot run for -- to be the president of the United States of America and not acknowledge its history clearly, plainly, concretely.
Two things can be true. This could have -- yes, the precepts of this country that were racist. Do you think it's better today? Great, Nikki, that's fine. I'm with that. It makes perfect sense. But you can't create your own way of describing this because she's leaving out the entire group.
LOWRY: Precepts, like all men are created equal, is racist? It wasn't racist. Now they made an accommodation to a fact on the ground that they assumed would go away.
CHAMPION: All men were not created equal, and you know that.
LOWRY: No, all men are created equal.
CHAMPION: No, no, that's not true.
LOWRY: Yes, they are.
CHAMPION: The Constitution, literally -- and you laid this out perfectly, Phil, earlier, the Constitution was very clear that there was a three-fifths clause for people who were not free. So how are we all created equal? The idea, sure. I love this idea, but they weren't referring to my ancestors—they weren’t referring to my ancestors.
LOWRY: And the idea was extremely powerful and has done more to define American history than the racism.
And look, they assumed, they were wrong, that slavery would go away. So, they weren't going to mention it in the Constitution and hope eventually progress would erode it. And in the immediate aftermath of the Revolution, race relations got better. You know, the north -- you had many missions, statues in the north. What happened, there was terrible backsliding in the South eventually in the 19th century. And then we have a terrible Civil War over it.
CHAMPION: Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree because our experience are different, right? My experience is very different. So, all I was saying, what Nikki needs to do is be very honest. Yes, the slavery question was a complete gaffe. They're not even hard, but she wasn't even asked if this country was racist. She was asked, I do believe by the reporter, the anchor, are there racist people in your party? And she was like, this is not a racist country. No one even asked her.
HARLOW: Are you in a -- I don't have the exact quote, but what Brian was asking her was essentially, is this a racist party? Are you part of a racist party? Right, Phil?
CHAMPION: And she said this is not a racist country. No one asked her that. So, I'm really curious as to why she –
LOWRY: Maybe she believes that.
CHAMPION: I have a hard time understanding why someone would not acknowledge the two truths. She could believe that. That's fine.
LOWRY: This is not a fundamentally racist country. Why did Indian immigrants come here and thrive? Why did black immigrants come here and thrive, Asian immigrants come here and thrive?
CHAMPION: This is absolutely a fundamentalist racist country. We don't all thrive. We are not created equal. We are not the same.
LOWRY: We are created equal. That is the fundamental truth. You deny that people are equal?
CHAMPION: Physically, sure, we can walk and we can move and we can say and we can do. But the world in which I live in is not going to be the same world that you live in. The way that I experience America is not going to be the way that you experience.
LOWRY: You're created equal. You're all equal. You deny that?
CHAMPION: Yes, that's not what I'm talking about.
LOWRY: But you said repeatedly not all of it.
CHAMPION: There's nuance here. So, if you would allow me to finish, I can tell you. The truth is, is that my experience is going to be different than your experience. And as a black woman in this country, I can tell you I have not been created equal, I haven’t been treated equal, rather in very many instances. Nikki can believe what you want.
LOWRY: She said the same thing.
CHAMPION: One second. Nikki can believe what she wants, but she can't turn around and say that's just what we're going to do for our children. If I say this is a racist country, my children will grow up feeling inferior. That's not true.
LOWRY: She said she experienced racism and you shouldn't -- the country's not defined by that, people shouldn't be defined by that and you can overcome it. That seems an uplifting message, a fundamentally American message to me.
CHAMPION: It seems like it's a message of erasure, for me.
MATTINGLY: It's just –
LOWRY: Of what? Erasure?
CHAMPION: For me.
MATTINGLY: I think what's most -- there's a lot to dig into on this and we will continue to do so but the fact that this became a central issue on some level because of her doing, and I don't know that this helps move the ball forward for her politically right now but it's certainly a discussion that's always worth having.
