In recent news, it wasn’t uncommon to hear liberals throw the name Benito Mussolini around for a cheap comparison to whatever they disliked about President Trump. But MSNBC’s The Weekend: Primetime took it to the next level in their conversation with Ruth Ben-Ghiat, author of Strongmen, asking her where she would rank Trump on a scale from one to the Italian dictator. And her answer was not surprising, given where she was.
In her book, Ben-Ghiat analyzed the rise and fall of Mussolini – while using it to predict Trump’s own trajectory. As absurd of a concept as that seemed, MSNBC’s hosts were all over it, raising a series of questions that fully played into the author’s narrative.
Far-left commentator Molly Jong-Fast was the first to bring Trump specifically into the conversation, asking:
I wondered if you could talk us through – we've talked a lot about the authoritarian leanings of Trump and Trumpism. I wonder if you could talk to us about what you think are the most useful things that people who care about democratic norms should be doing right now?
Already her question was rife with bias, accepting as fact that Trump was an authoritarian and implying those against Trump were the only ones “who care about democratic norms.” Of course, that didn’t bother Ben-Ghiat, who was quick to encourage Democrats to “stand up for the truth” and rescue those “dwelling in the disinformation tunnel” of conservative media.
It’s ironic that standing up for the truth came in the form of incorrectly representing facts. Firing the chief of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the catalyst for the Trump/Mussolini comparison, was a far cry from the complete government takeover of the Italian dictator.
With that in mind, co-host Danny Cevallos wondered where Trump fell on her scale:
You've written that authoritarians don't take over all at once, but “gradually, over time, concentrate their power and consolidate their power.” If this is a continuum, if, say, Mussolini is a ten, where are we? Are we at a two or a three when we look at a world history of extreme strongmen like Mussolini, like others in world history, what number are we at now?
“There's almost no parallel for the speed at which things have happened,” Ben-Ghiat answered, “so in that sense, we're like a seven.”
Again, all Trump did was fire a single statistician. To consider that to be rapidly approaching the level of a fascist known for acts of political violence was nothing short of laughable. Even Cevalles had suggested Trump being at a two or three, but did not question once Ben-Ghiat provided a more favorable number.
Now it was co-host Elise Jordan’s turn to fuel the narrative:
What of everything that's happened since the beginning of Trump's presidency, do you think is a true warning sign? Is there one thing that you would pinpoint and be like, this is different?
Naturally, Ben-Ghiat found that true warning sign in Trump’s immigration policy, claiming: “if you target immigrants, you have an excuse to build an infrastructure of repression.”
How exactly deporting illegal immigrants would grant Trump totalitarian control over citizens was unclear, but once again MSNBC’s hosts did not question, only encouraging the comparison between Trump and Mussolini.
The transcript is below. Click "expand" to read.
MSNBC's The Weekend: Primetime
August 3, 2025
7:16 p.m. EST(...)
MOLLY JONG-FAST: Hi, Ruth, it's Molly. I wondered if you could talk us through – we've talked a lot about the authoritarian leanings of Trump and Trumpism. I wonder if you could talk to us about what you think are the most useful things that people who care about democratic norms should be doing right now?
RUTH BEN-GHIAT: I think stand up for the truth. Talk to people if you know people who are, I call it, dwelling in the disinformation tunnel. That's very important because as authoritarian – as authoritarianism advances, the media is more likely, if they've capitulated to – so, you know, in a situation like ours where you're still a democracy – structures of democracy, it's not a one party state. So it's not about only publicizing propaganda. It's also about what you don't say. It's about what you choose not to print.
And so, that absence is just as important as the noise. And so, it's very important for us as citizens and – to fill in those gaps. And we can do that. There are lots of stories of people suffering from economic downturns that might not be printed in the paper or seen on screens. And so that's what we can do. We can stand up for the truth. We can educate.
DANNY CEVALLOS: Ruth, Danny Cevallos. You've written that authoritarians don't take over all at once, but “gradually, over time, concentrate their power and consolidate their power.” If this is a continuum, if, say, Mussolini is a ten, where are we? Are we at a two or a three when we look at a world history of extreme strongmen like Mussolini, like others in world history, what number are we at now?
BEN-GHIAT: You know, I mean, if things work differently today, you don't have as many one party states outside of communism, but I can say that there is almost no parallel unless people came to office via coup. So when somebody has come to office via election, there's almost no parallel for the speed at which things have happened. So in that sense, we're like a seven. It's very unusual if you compare the first eight months of Putin, of Erdogan, of Orban, things did not proceed at this pace. And so that's – that has to be taken into account.
ELISE JORDAN: Ruth, on the flip side, it's just with so much going on, it's easy to be cynical and just say, times are tough. Times are really hard. Voters are concerned about inflation, the economy, their own lives. You watch what's going on overseas and how American money continues tax – our taxpayer dollars are fueling horrible, horrible wars.
What of everything that's happened since the beginning of Trump's presidency, do you think is a true warning sign? Is there one thing that you would pinpoint and be like, this is different?
BEN-GHIAT: It's really the way things fit together. I think, you know, the kind of mass – the immigration and mass – what's coming is mass deportations, perhaps for an extended period that gives them, if you target immigrants, you have an excuse to build an infrastructure of repression. I'm worried about that. The corruption is off the charts, but it's really the way that it fits together.
But to end – to have a hopeful note, I really do believe that the scale of the corruption, the magnitude of what's going on, and they can hide all the economic data they want, but people will be feeling this in their lives. My own mother had her Social Security terminated. She was DOGEd. And there are plenty of other people whose parents or family members are losing benefits. Their jobs are suffering, their businesses are suffering, and there will be a reckoning. And it will be much harder for the Trump administration to hide its weakness, its incompetency, and its mistakes.
CEVALLOS: Ruth Ben-Ghiat, thank you for joining us.
