After grilling Covington Catholic High School student Nicholas Sandmann on Wednesday, NBC anchor Savannah Guthrie treated Native American activist Nathan Phillips to a softball sit-down on Thursday’s Today show. She began by asking Phillips how he was feeling and then fretted whether her hostile interview with Sandmann was “enough” for him and if the teenager “should have apologized” for their altercation at the Lincoln Memorial.
“First of all, first question, how are you doing? This has been a whirlwind few days for you. You find yourself on the front page of every newspaper. How are you doing and how are you feeling?,” Guthrie sympathetically wondered at the top of the exchange. She then asked Phillips for his reaction to her interview with Sandmann the following morning. He derisively remarked: “I was upset I was made to sit down and watch it.”
Guthrie followed up: “And what was your reaction to it? How did it make you feel? What did you think about his words and his explanation and his version of this encounter?” Phillips sneered: “Coached and written up for him, insincerity, lack of responsibility.”
The host seemed to worry that she had not pressed Sandmann hard enough: “He said when I asked directly that he didn’t think he owed an apology, but he does wish that he had walked away. Was that enough for you, or do you think he should have apologized?” Predictably, the left-wing activist demanded more:
Well, if there’s an apology, there’d be an apology for his own behavior to a lot of other people besides me. I’d be, like, way down on the list of his people he needs to apologize to. But because of the tomahawk chop and the mocking and those things, and in one of his statements he did say that he was the leader of that. He got permission from his school teacher.
At that point, Guthrie decided to tee up Phillips to falsely claim that the students were shouting “Build that wall,” even as she pointed out a complete lack of evidence for the charge: “Did you hear anyone say, ‘Build that wall?’ It isn’t audible on the video clips, I think, that are out there, but did you hear that?” Phillips insisted: “You know, I did hear that. And I have seen some out there on the internets where you can hear them saying, ‘Build that wall.’”
Rather than challenge the unproven assertion, she simply accepted his version of events: “And how did you feel in that moment? Did you, yourself, feel threatened?”
The only somewhat challenging question Guthrie posed to Phillips was this:
I asked the young man this question, I’ll ask you the same thing, do you think in that confrontation, that encounter that went on and on, should you have walked away? He said yes, he thinks now he should have walked away. Do you think, sir, you should have walked away?
Even though the full video of the incident clearly showed Phillips intentionally walking up to the students, he claimed: “That’s what I was trying to do. I was trying to walk away....we were surrounded.” She followed: “You feel you were blocked?” Phillips declared: “Oh, I was blocked.”
Wrapping up the friendly exchange, Guthrie sought his guidance: “Finally, I wonder what you feel now. What do you hope happens now? Would you want to meet with these students? What are you hoping comes of this moment in our culture?” Again, Phillips ranted about Sandmann using “a PR firm” and lacking “sincerity.”
In her final question, she feared: “Have you feared for your safety since all of this has happened? The students have received death threats. Have you feared for your own safety?” Phillips replied: “You know, I didn’t have any problems until the students started saying they were getting death threats, and then as soon as that happened, it started happening with me.”
On Tuesday, classes at Covington Catholic High School actually had to be cancelled due to the number of threats against the students and their families.
The glaring double standard between the two interviews is obvious. If Guthrie wanted to maintain any integrity as a journalist, she would have been equally tough on each guest and asked the same questions of both. Instead, Sandmann was blamed and interrogated while Phillips was simply asked to talk about how he was feeling.
Here is a transcript of Guthrie’s questions to Phillips in the January 24 interview:
7:32 AM ET
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE: And Nathan Phillips is with us now. Mr. Phillips, good morning to you.
NATHAN PHILLIPS: Good morning.
GUTHRIE: First of all, first question, how are you doing? This has been a whirlwind few days for you. You find yourself on the front page of every newspaper. How are you doing and how are you feeling?
(...)
GUTHRIE: I believe you’ve had a chance to see the interview that the student at the center of this gave. What was your reaction? What did you think of what he had to say about this encounter?
PHILLIPS: I was upset I was made to sit down and watch it.
GUTHRIE: Why is that?
PHILLIPS: Um, I read his statement and then when I got into the first – well, I started – somebody tried to show it to me before I went to my prayer ceremony and I got into about the first 30 seconds, 40 seconds of it, and I said, “Well, that’s all I needed to hear.”
GUTHRIE: And what was your reaction to it? How did it make you feel? What did you think about his words and his explanation and his version of this encounter?
PHILLIPS: Coached and written up for him, insincerity, lack of responsibility. You know, those are the words I came up with. But then I went to go pray about it, and then I woke up, I woke up with this forgiving heart. So I forgive him.
GUTHRIE: He said when I asked directly that he didn’t think he owed an apology, but he does wish that he had walked away. Was that enough for you, or do you think he should have apologized?
PHILLIPS: Well, if there’s an apology, there’d be an apology for his own behavior to a lot of other people besides me. I’d be, like, way down on the list of his people he needs to apologize to. But because of the tomahawk chop and the mocking and those things, and in one of his statements he did say that he was the leader of that. He got permission from his school teacher. You know, there’s a lot of times he could have walked away.
GUTHRIE: Did you hear anyone say, “Build that wall?” It isn’t audible on the video clips, I think, that are out there, but did you hear that?
PHILLIPS: You know, I did hear that. And I have seen some out there on the internets where you can hear them saying, “Build that wall.”
GUTHRIE: And how did you feel in that moment? Did you, yourself, feel threatened?
(...)
GUTHRIE: I asked the young man this question, I’ll ask you the same thing, do you think in that confrontation, that encounter that went on and on, should you have walked away? He said yes, he thinks now he should have walked away. Do you think, sir, you should have walked away?
PHILLIPS: That’s what I was trying to do. I was trying to walk away, there was a spot, there was a place I could take my people. Because we were surrounded. We couldn't go right, we couldn’t go left, back.
(...)
GUTHRIE: You feel you were blocked?
PHILLIPS: Oh, I was blocked.
GUTHRIE: There has also been some question about the nature of your military service, and this is a good chance to clear it up. You were a veteran. You served in the Marine Corps. Some have said that you were a Vietnam veteran. I don’t believe you have said that. What exactly is the nature of your service?
PHILLIPS: I went to boot camp. I stayed there. That Marine Corps was a reservist guy. So I stayed in the reserves for a couple years.
(...)
GUTHRIE: So to be clear, you served in the Marines at the time that Vietnam was going on, but you did not serve overseas?
PHILLIPS: What I’ve always said is I’ve never stepped foot in south Vietnam and that’s – I don’t know how much clearer can that be.
(...)
GUTHRIE: Finally, I wonder what you feel now. What do you hope happens now? Would you want to meet with these students? What are you hoping comes of this moment in our culture?
PHILLIPS: I find myself having to – even though I’m angry, I still have that forgiveness in my heart for those students. And that forgiveness even goes to those chaperones and those teachers who should have just said, “You students, this isn’t the place.” And to talk with them now, when they – when the statement – and I did hear the statement that he wrote and the video statement he put out. What it says is he has a PR firm. So those aren’t even his words, if he has a PR firm. You know? Some sincerity, some sense of responsibility for his actions. You know, these are some of the things that, if we ever did meet, it would be those adults. I would like to ask why didn’t – have those school administrators there – and ask them why didn’t they say no.
GUTHRIE: Have you feared for your safety since all of this has happened? The students have received death threats. Have you feared for your own safety?
PHILLIPS: You know, I didn’t have any problems until the students started saying they were getting death threats, and then as soon as that happened, it started happening with me.
GUTHRIE: Well, Mr. Phillips, you’ve certainly been through a lot in these last few days. Thank you, Mr. Phillips, for spending this time with us and sharing your story. It’s much appreciated.
PHILLIPS: Yup.
GUTHRIE: So it’s interesting to have both perspectives now. People can look at the video, hear what the individuals involved had to say, and make up their own minds.
HODA KOTB: I think that’s so true. I think a lot of people look at, like, seven seconds of video and think they know the whole story. And then you lay out both interviews and you get to really make a decision on what you think.
GUTHRIE: Yeah, we’ll see what people think.
