CBS This Morning journalists on Thursday defended the practice of leaking from officials inside the White House and said that investigations cracking down can lead to “terror” in an administration. Talking about efforts by White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci to eliminate the leaks, John Dickerson explained, “The problem with leak investigations in all past White Houses is that it clamps down on people inside of the White House. It creates an atmosphere of a little bit of terror.”
He fretted, “You get rid of people who are leaking. It makes everyone kind of look over their shoulder.” Then Dickerson flat-out defended the practice of what he had previously called “harmless leaks”:
White Houses need leaks. They need relationships with reporters to float things out there without making them official, to take care of stories that may look bad but they need explanation off the record. They need a conduit with reporters. Those pathways, then are used by people who are disgruntled by a process that doesn't work to leak information that, again, as you pointed out, is not illegal but is just inconvenient.
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A transcript is below:
CBS This Morning
7/27/17
8:05:01 to 8:08:30CHARLIE ROSE: CBS News chief Washington correspondent, Face the Nation anchor John Dickerson joins us now from Washington. John, good morning.
JOHN DICKERSON: Good morning, Charlie.
ROSE: So, what do you make of this campaign to eliminate all leaks at the White House? It is— what kind of errand is it?
DICKERSON: Well, you know, like much in life, the tighter you squeeze on something, the less you may have. The problem with leak investigations in all past White Houses is that it clamps down on people inside of the White House. It creates an atmosphere of a little bit of terror. You get rid of people who are leaking. It makes everyone kind of look over their shoulder. And it’s often that leaks are the sign of a White House that is not operating in a healthy way. Why do people leak? Now, I’m talking here about harmless leaks.
Not national security leaks, which will talk about later. But harmless leaks are the result of a process that doesn't work, where people feel like they're noting with heard, where their opinions are being discarded, where things are happening to their colleagues that irritate them or that seem like they're not fair or disloyal. And that's hard to fix by clamping down. White Houses is healthy when all are working for a common purpose. But if they see it's about self-preservation or that people can make end runs around the process, then they leak. So it's really harder to fix by just firing people or threatening to fire people.
NORAH O’DONNELL: And, John, shouldn’t we be clear? Leaks about the policy and this Game of Thrones-style stuff that’s going on inside the White House is not illegal.
DICKERSON: No, it's not illegal. It’s not illegal at all. It happens to White Houses going, you know, both Republicans and Democrats. Jimmy Carter had a terrible problem with leaks and his chief of staff threatened to do what Anthony Scaramucci is doing. And it doesn’t really work also for this other crucial reason: White Houses need leaks. They need relationships with reporters to float things out there without making them official, to take care of stories that may look bad but they need explanation off the record. They need a conduit with reporters. Those pathways, then are used by people who are disgruntled by a process that doesn’t work to leak information that, again, as you pointed out, is not illegal but is just inconvenient.
But here's another important thing. I've been reporting on health care. Republicans working on health care right now are talking not about leaks from the White House. They're talking about things that have come out of the President's own mouth, distracting his own agenda, what he said to the Boy Scouts, what he’s doing to Jeff Sessions, which Republicans on the hill are scratching their heads about. Why he's trying to lead him to the end of the gangplank there. Those are things that are not coming from leaks.
GAYLE KING: Now, CBS has learned that the Justice Department plans to announce an investigation to the leaking of classified information. How do you see that playing out considering the public dru— drubbing, rather, that Donald Trump is giving of Jeff Sessions?
DICKERSON: Well, in a sense it may be the way that this gets settled down. Again, it's amazing how confused Republicans who are allies with Jeff Sessions, who want the President to do well, are by this public, kind of situation that's emerged. But Jeff Sessions had been looking into leaks. These are illegal leaks. These are leaks into classified information. He’s been doing this for a while. He mentioned it in his congressional testimony. They actually charged something. They’ve actually already charged somebody. This could be a way if the just didn't does something the President could take an off ramp and say, now they're taking care of this thing. It’s back on track and I'll move on. But that's if he really wants his Attorney General to stay and we're not sure if that's the case or not.
ROSE: John, thanks so much.
