On the Saturday edition of New Day, during a segment on the bathroom bill in North Carolina that would bar men from entering women's restrooms in state buildings and vice versa, CNN anchor Victor Blackwell oddly suggested that there was no significant difference between a man indecently exposing himself to a woman in a restroom, versus exposing himself to a another man, as the weekend anchor debated attorney Matt Staver of the Liberty Counsel.
Between Blackwell on Saturday, and Chris Cuomo on Monday, the two CNN anchors seemed to be in a contest to be the biggest liberal caricature on the issue of whether it is acceptable for men to go into women's restrooms.
After Blackwell began the segment by asking Staver why he was offering to defend the North Carolina state law in court for free, as Staver recalled that an ordinance passed in the city of Charlotte, North Carolina, introduced the problem of men being allowed to use women's restrooms, Blackwell jumped in to mis-correct his guest: "Let me stop you there. Let me stop you here, Matt, and I don't make a habit of interrupting guests, but, in the discussion of transgendered men and women, they are men and women."
The Liberty Counsel attorney responded by informing him: "No, they're not. In, you know, a man in this particular situation -- in the Charlotte ordinance -- a man who is biologically a man could use the woman's shower room and locker rooms. We've actually seen this happen in other places. We saw it happen just recently in Georgia."
A bit later, as Staver explained that transgendered people still have the option to change their birth certificates to indicate their new gender, thus allowing them to use the public restroom that corresponds to their current gender, Blackwell demanded to know why changing genitalia is the "state's business":
VICTOR BLACKWELL: Why is that the state's business?
MATT STAVER: What we have now is back to common sense, and that is a man who's biologically a man -- and that's what it says on their birth certificate -- they can't go into a woman's locker room or shower facilities.
BLACKWELL: But tell me, why is that the state's business -- if a person goes through a procedure to change genitalia -- why is that the state's business?
Staver recounted recent examples of men and boys harassing women in restrooms and locker room facilities:
Well, you know, just within a week ago, we had a 51-year-old cross-dressing male who went into a woman's restroom and exposed himself , and now he's being charged in that situation. A few weeks ago, we had a 15-year-old boy go into a girls' locker room in Minnesota. Five girls were in a state of undress preparing for basketball. And that's the problem that we have.
The CNN anchor oddly seemed to see no difference between men harassing women and men harassing other men as he responded: "Is that not regardless of one's gender? If a man walked into a restroom and exposed himself to another man, would that not still be a crime? It has nothing to do with one's gender."
Below is a complete transcript of the segment from the Saturday, April 2, New Day on CNN:
VICTOR BLACKWELL: All right, there is a possibility -- slight -- but a possibility that the state of North Carolina could lose billions of federal dollars in funding if they don't repeal a law that critics say limits the rights of transgendered people across the state. According to the New York Times, the Obama administration is studying a state law that says transgendered people have to use the public restroom that corresponds with the gender listed on their birth certificate. The Times found that the Federal Departments of Transportation, Education, and Housing are reviewing whether the law makes the state ineligible for federal funding. Now, the state law was passed in response to a Charlotte ordinance that allowed people to use the public restroom that's assigned to the gender with which they identify.
Attorney Matt Staver represented Kim Davis in the Kentucky fight over marriage certificates, and he joins us this morning. Matt, good to have you back. ... I want to start here by listening to the attorney who's already on the job of defending North Carolina and the laws there, the attorney general, Roy Cooper. Here's what he said about the new law.
ATTORNEY GENERAL ROY COOPER (D-NC): Not only is this new law a national embarrassment, it will set North Carolina's economy back if we don't repeal it.
BLACKWELL: We should also say that Cooper is running for governor of North Carolina. He has said, if it's challenged, this law, he will not defend it in court. You have volunteered your firm to defend it for free. Why?
MATT STAVER, LIBERTY COUNSEL: Because it's a common sense law, and it's constitutional. First of all, there's absolutely no chance that federal funds will be taken away from this particular state for this law. We have to go back and look at what this law actually did. Let's start with the Charlotte ordinance. The Charlotte ordinance did not regulate employment. In fact, the Charlotte ordinance specifically says that employment is a statewide issue. What it did is open up the men's and women's bathrooms to people of the opposite sex so men could use women's restrooms. Other than the-
BLACKWELL: Let me stop you there. Let me stop you here, Matt, and I don't make a habit of interrupting guests, but, in the discussion of transgendered men and women, they are men and women. It's not as if this is-
STAVER: No, they're not. In, you know, a man in this particular situation -- in the Charlotte ordinance -- a man who is biologically a man could use the woman's shower room and locker rooms. We've actually seen this happen in other places. We saw it happen just recently in Georgia.
BLACKWELL: We're talking about the state law here in which the state legislature and the governor added the word "biological" to their discrimination laws here. Previously, this was "race, religion, color, national origin," there should be no discrimination, "sex or handicap," they added the word "biological." That's what this law-
STAVER: They added the word "biological," what's on your birth certificate, but, you know, in North Carolina, you can change your birth certificate. There's a way to change your birth certificate from male to female or female to male. So if you change your birth certificate, then yes, you can use any restroom, even under the North Carolina law. North Carolina allows for that change, so frankly nothing has changed differently than what was before or after April 1. The Charlotte law was going to allow in Charlotte men to use women's restrooms, women to use men's restrooms. It didn't regulate employment, so it's not something that deals with employment. Employment is the same before and after the state law.
And even under the state law, the state law is still compatible with another North Carolina law that frankly allows someone to use a different restroom if you change that on your birth certificate. So if you've gone through surgical procedures or if you've had some mistake on your birth certificate, you can change that, and you can use the other restroom if, in fact, that's what your birth certificate says.
BLACKWELL: Why is that the state's business?
STAVER: What we have now is back to common sense, and that is a man who's biologically a man -- and that's what it says on their birth certificate -- they can't go into a woman's locker room or shower facilities.
BLACKWELL: But tell me, why is that the state's business -- if a person goes through a procedure to change genitalia -- why is that the state's business?
STAVER: Well, you know, just within a week ago, we had a 51-year-old cross-dressing male who went into a woman's restroom and exposed himself , and now he's being charged in that situation. A few weeks ago, we had a 15-year-old boy go into a girls' locker room in Minnesota. Five girls were in a state of undress preparing for basketball. And that's the problem that we have.
BLACKWELL: Is that not regardless of one's gender? If a man walked into a restroom and exposed himself to another man, would that not still be a crime? It has nothing to do with one's gender.
STAVER: No, if a man goes into a woman's restroom, it makes women and girls certainly feel that their privacy has been invaded, and certainly it puts them at risk. You could have someone in their own mind thinking that they're a male but they want to be female, they go in there, but you could have someone else who's male and just wants to go in there.You're not going to be able to go into the recesses of their mind to figure out what they're really thinking, but both of them you have to allow. meaning that girls' shower facilities -- just like what happened in Minnesota with the 15-year-old girls will be open to boys who will just simply want to come in there and observe them in a state of undress. That is a common sense law North Carolina passed. Frankly, it's a law that's in virtually every state. Indeed, if you go even into New York where Governor Cuomo said he's going to boycott North Carolina, his own state doesn't have a law that allows men to use the women's restrooms.
BLACKWELL: Let me ask you this. There have been concerns of security that have been put forward by supporters of the changes in this new, this HB-2, this law in North Carolina, there will be, because of this law, transgendered men who are forced to go into a women's restroom and transgendered women who will be forced to go into a men's restroom or shower or changing facilities. Does that put them in danger of physical harm as well?
STAVER: No. Have we had any reports of there being physical harm? We've had zero reports. There's no information that was ever presented to any of these discussions regarding people (inaudible)-
BLACKWELL: But I'm asking you to just think critically here. If you have a transgendered man walk into a female restroom or shower changing facility, or you have a transgendered woman walk into a men's restroom, does that not -- just thinking critically here -- put them in some type of physical harm or jeopardy of harm?
STAVER: Well, let's look at it the other way. How many people do you see walking into women's restrooms like that versus how many women walk into a women's restroom, and so now you're going to put all of these women at risk because someone thinks in their mind that they're a woman and they want to go into the woman's restroom. You know, frankly, in North Carolina, you can change that if you want to, and it's available right there in the state law that you can change it on your birth certificate. If you don't change it, it essentially says if you're a man, you have to use the men's restroom. It's a fairly common sense procedure, and, in fact, it's not unusual for the rest of the country. Almost every state has a law that's very similar to this. This is nothing unusual. What we've seen is a lot of histrionics and a lot of misrepresentation over a common sense law that frankly the majority of people would support and the majority of states -- the vast majority -- have in their own legislative schemes as well.
BLACKWELL: I've been told that I've got to wrap it up, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about this last point about this law. It adds, as I said, to the discrimination segment here, adding "biological" before "sex." And there are not specific protections here against discrimination in hiring against LGBT residents in North Carolina. Should there not be some protections for the LGBT community?
STAVER: Well, there was never any listing of sexual orientation in the law before, so that's never been changed. So the law's not changed at all (inaudible)-
BLACKWELL: The law has changed. I'm actually holding it right here where it says, "Employment without discrimination or abridgement on account of race, religion, color, national origin, age, sex, or handicap," but the world "biological" was added before the word "sex," which takes out the LGBT community?
STAVER: Right, but that's dealing with the transsexual issue, the transgender issue, the sexual orientation, that's never been changed
BLACKWELL: But should there not be some protections?
STAVER: Employers can have their policies on this issue, but it's never been changed. It's never been an issue. It's never been an issue that results in significant discrimination, thus needing legislative intervention. What this does is it makes uniform across the state that men have to use men's restrooms and women have to use women's. It's a common sense piece of legislation that makes a statewide uniform law, and it doesn't allow Charlotte to simply allow men to go into women's restrooms or shower facilities.
BLACKWELL: Matt Staver, thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning. I think we've got some clarity on your position here, and hopefully we can talk again soon.
