Washington Post associate editor Jonathan Capehart and New York Times columnist David Brooks had an actual debate on Friday’s PBS News Hour. However, it was more of an inside-the-family argument about the best way for Democrats to stand up to President Donald Trump. Capehart argued that, after Senate Democrats declined to shut down the government, the party needs to grow “a spine,” while Brooks argued Minority Leader Chuck Schumer did the right thing by not making a bad situation worse by allowing Trump to further “decimate” the country.
Host Amna Nawaz began with Capehart, “Democrats who previously said shutdowns are dangerous and they are harmful now saying they'd rather have a shutdown than vote for this bill. What's going on in the party?”
Capehart began by not answering the question:
The Republicans took control of — maintained the control of the House. Republicans took control and gained seats in the Senate. The Republicans took control of the White House. They crowed for months after the election that the American people gave them a mandate to govern. They then kicked Democrats out of the negotiations away from the table over this continuing resolution. And then, when they discover that they don't have the votes to get this through, suddenly, the narrative, it's the Democrats want to shut down the government?
He then longed for a Democratic version of Trump, “And I think one of the things I learned in 2016, the reason why people liked Donald Trump, the people who support him and voted for him, they loved him because he fights. I kept hearing that. He fights for them for what they believe in, and they know he won't win every fight.”
Capehart added, “This was an opportunity for Democrats, elected Democrats, to show the base and people who voted for them and people who are upset with Donald Trump that they are willing to fight. If you're not going to fight over this, then what are you going to do when the fight becomes even more terrible, the Trump tax cuts, or even the full faith and credit of the United States by raising the debt ceiling? I think that's why people are so upset.”
After Nawaz asked if Democrats made the right decision in not shutting down the government, Capehart answered, “I think that voting no on the continuing resolution was the right thing to do because it's two terrible choices, but at some point Democrats are going to have to show that they have a spine, they have a backbone to push back against what's happening.”
Brooks, on the other hand, joked, “I'm on team Schumer. So, never thought I'd say those words.”
After noting that Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez made a similar argument to the one Capehart did, Brooks added, “The problem with the AOC side is they never answered Chuck Schumer's core argument, is that if we shut down the government, Donald Trump will have expanded power to furlough all these nonessential workers, and he will never bring them back.”
Brooks then praised Schumer:
And so, by shutting the government, you're expanding Trump's power to decimate the government. And so that was Chuck Schumer's argument, and he was like, this is a terrible choice, and it is a terrible choice. Everybody wants to stand up against Donald Trump in the Democratic Party. You're offended by the way you're being steamrolled. The country's being decimated on every front. Of course you want to fight back. But what AOC is offering is a really nice TikTok video. And what Chuck is offering, Chuck Schumer is offering, is, like, saving some jobs.”
Lost in this family feud was that the bill both men decried as horrible simply cut $13 billion in non-defense discretionary spending, reverting back to pre-2024 totals.
Here is a transcript for the March 14 show:
PBS News Hour
3/14/2025
7:31 PM ET
AMNA NAWAZ: Democrats who previously said shutdowns are dangerous and they are harmful now saying they'd rather have a shutdown than vote for this bill. What's going on in the party?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Here's what's going on, and it's not so much what's happening in the Democratic Party. It's what's happening in the Republican Party.
The Republicans took control of — maintained the control of the House. Republicans took control and gained seats in the Senate. The Republicans took control of the White House. They crowed for months after the election that the American people gave them a mandate to govern.
They then kicked Democrats out of the negotiations away from the table over this continuing resolution. And then, when they discover that they don't have the votes to get this through, suddenly, the narrative, it's the Democrats want to shut down the government?
If you have a mandate, then use the mandate and pass your Republican-only negotiated bill. And I think one of the things I learned in 2016, the reason why people liked Donald Trump, the people who support him and voted for him, they loved him because he fights. I kept hearing that. He fights for them for what they believe in, and they know he won't win every fight.
This was an opportunity for Democrats, elected Democrats, to show the base and people who voted for them and people who are upset with Donald Trump that they are willing to fight. If you're not going to fight over this, then what are you going to do when the fight becomes even more terrible, the Trump tax cuts, or even the full faith and credit of the United States by raising the debt ceiling?
I think that's why people are so upset.
NAWAZ: So should Senate Democrats not have voted for this?
CAPEHART: They — I think that voting no on the continuing resolution was the right thing to do because it's two terrible choices, but at some point Democrats are going to have to show that they have a spine, they have a backbone to push back against what's happening.
NAWAZ: David, what do you take away from how this all unfolds?
BROOKS: I'm on team Schumer. So, never thought I'd say those words.
NAWAZ: Spoken by David Brooks. Okay.
BROOKS: So, you got Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who sort of made a similar point that we need to fight, we need to say no, we can't pass this thing, we can't assent to the Republican bill.
And Chuck Schumer — but the problem with the AOC side is they never answered Chuck Schumer's core argument, is that if we shut down the government, Donald Trump will have expanded power to furlough all these nonessential workers, and he will never bring them back.
And so, by shutting the government, you're expanding Trump's power to decimate the government. And so that was Chuck Schumer's argument, and he was like, this is a terrible choice, and it is a terrible choice. Everybody wants to stand up against Donald Trump in the Democratic Party. You're offended by the way you're being steamrolled. The country's being decimated on every front. Of course you want to fight back.
But what AOC is offering is a really nice TikTok video. And what Chuck is offering, Chuck Schumer is offering, is, like, saving some jobs.
