During Wednesday's edition of CNN's New Day, co-host Chris Cuomo interviewed former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who has embarked on a media tour to promote her new book, Fascism: A Warning. During the interview, Cuomo teed up Albright to call President Trump a fascist, as have many other media personalities who have interviewed her. For her part, Albright claimed, "I'm not calling him a fascist," but still suggested that he possesses many characteristics of a fascist.
After expressing her disappointment with cuts to the State Department budget, Cuomo asked Albright why she did not approve of the Trump Administration’s decision to “shrink down” the government bureaucracy. Albright indicated that the cuts to the State Department indicate “a lack of understanding and respect for Democratic institutions”, adding that this administration is “undermining the various institutional structures including the State Department and most obviously, the Judicial Branch of our government.”
The former Clinton administration cabinet official then warned that “democracy can’t operate if there is, in fact, a President who thinks he’s above the law and thinks he can do everything by himself.” She then mentioned that her book “has kind of a historical approach to fascism”, noting that one of the sure signs of fascism is “a leader who thinks that he can do everything by himself,” suggesting that President Trump’s reference to himself as a “stable genius” means that he falls into that category.
Cuomo then brought up a quote by Holocaust survivor Primo Levi, which Albright uses in her book. The quote describes the elements of fascism: “It’s not just about terror and police intimidation. Denying and distorting information, undermining systems of justice, paralyzing the system of education, spreading in a myriad of subtle ways nostalgia for a period when order reigned.” Cuomo added that many believe that the President’s signature phrase “Make America Great Again” is "a dog whistle to an earlier order." He then asked Albright, “Do you agree with that and what is that order suggestive of to you?”
Albright seemed to agree with Cuomo’s premise of “Make America Great Again” as a dog whistle, saying “the reason I wrote the book is that I am worried about the dog whistle part of this.” Albright then brought up a quote from Italian dictator Benito Mussolini: “if you pluck the chicken one feather at a time, you can consolidate without people paying attention.” Albright said that “we are seeing a couple of feathers pulled, most recently, which is plucking the chicken in terms of the judicial system.”
After emphasizing that the book does not entirely focus on President Trump, Cuomo brought up a counter-argument that the President is not a fascist, he just recognizes that American democracy has been corrupted and promises to fix it. He then asked Albright for her reaction to the counter-argument.
She emphasized “I’m not calling him a fascist.” But then she basically did call him a fascist: “What I’m looking at are what in fact the characteristics are that we have seen in other places where a leader does in fact say that the institutions that we have don’t work at all.” She then asserted that she would have written the book “no matter who was elected.” Cuomo should have responded to that assertion with his signature catchphrase: “That’s B.S.”
After taking veiled swipes at the President for attacking the press and embracing “hyper-nationalism, which made us try to look for some enemy to scapegoat”, Cuomo concluded the interview by mentioning, "And look, obviously, you have [Rodrigo] Duterte, you have [Abdel Fattah] el-Sisi, you have [Vladimir] Putin."
Expect Albright to continue bashing the President as she continues to promote her book.
A transcript is below. Click "expand" to read more:
CNN New Day
04/11/18
07:28 AM
CHRIS CUOMO: What do you think of the current state of the State Department?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: Well, I’m very depressed about it. I loved being the head of it and our diplomats are the most remarkable people who are loyal Americans, hard working public servants. And to see what has happened in the first year of the Trump Administration where the budget for the State Department was cut down and then Former Secretary Tillerson not only agreed with it but was fine when he was there and when members of Congress wanted to give him more money, he said no. And so I think it’s a lack of understanding of what the United States is about. We, every great country has a toolbox. Diplomacy is a major tool and we have undercut that with what has been going on so I hope that if Pompeo is confirmed, that he takes a very strong step to resurrect the State Department, It is an essential part of our foreign policy, obviously.
CUOMO: So the counter-criticism is that government equals waste and this is the businessman’s world now and you have Trump at the top. And you had Tillerson in there, who ran Exxon. And he believes in efficiency and true management and this place was bloated and inefficient and not part of the mandate in terms of this America First policy. We don’t have to reach out the same way we did. Shrink it down. You say, which I was shocked to read, by the way, in the new book Fascism, the, you’re a worrier. Why does that worry you that we’re going to be efficient, we’re going to cut it down? We’re going to save people their tax dollars.
ALBRIGHT: Well, I’m an optimist but I do worry a lot and part of it is that I think that what is happening in this Administration is a lack of understanding and respect for Democratic institutions and how we operate, how in fact, we try to explain our policy to the American people and undermining the various institutional structures including the State Department and most obviously, the Judicial Branch of our government. And that is what worries me because democracy can’t operate if there is in fact, a President who thinks he’s above the law and thinks that he can do everything by himself. My book has kind of a historical approach to fascism. And one of the things that does happen is that there is a leader who thinks that he can do everything by himself. A, the answer to everything, a stable genius, a number of aspects that says I can do it by myself. That is not what this country is about.
CUOMO: I want to, you know, you start the book off with a quote by Primo Levi, which is a perfect choice. Right? He’s an Italian and he’s Jewish. So you checked both boxes for us. And it suggests that don’t just look at the obvious when you’re talking about fascism because fascism is such a dynamite word. Right? I mean, it invokes such harshness in itself. And the quote is interesting and obviously, it winds up being an invitation for people to how you’re going to discuss this book. “It’s not just about terror and police intimidation. Denying and distorting information, undermining systems of justice, paralyzing the system of education, spreading in a myriad of subtle ways nostalgia for a period when order reigned.” Okay? That’s the criticism of “Make America Great Again,” that it is a dog whistle to an earlier order. Do you agree with that and what is that order suggestive of to you?
ALBRIGHT: Well, the reason I wrote the book is that I am worried about the dog whistle part of this. And Mussolini, and I write about him in the book, is somebody that came up with a really incredible image, which is if you pluck the chicken one feather at a time, you can consolidate without people paying attention. I think we are seeing a couple of feathers pulled, most recently, which is plucking the chicken in terms of the judicial system. And one of the other parts about this is if you can’t have a leader that thinks he’s above the law. So for me, what I wanted to do is kind of warn about those particular steps and, you know, the statement say something, see something, say something. I’ve now added to that, do something, which is why I wrote the book.
CUOMO: Now, look, you know, I’m teasing you about being the worrier. But anybody who knows your story, and they should read the book and they should look at it because it’s not just about Donald Trump. There’s a chapter in here about him, he’s mentioned in the foreword but there’s a lot more context in here. You lived this. You lived the absolute extreme of what can happen because of the holocaust. You lost grandparents, you lost extended family members, you had to be on the run, it shaped you. So it’s not about some mindless worry, it’s about your reality of what existence can bring. In your chapter about the President, it will meet with a counter-argument, which is no, no, no, he’s not a fascist. He believes in democracy, he believes that democracy has been corrupted here, that the institutions, the deep state, that they are not doing their job and that’s what he’s calling out. He’s not against justice, he’s about injustice and that’s what his words are and to the extent they go beyond that, he doesn’t mean it, that’s just hyperbole. Is that good enough for you?
ALBRIGHT: Chris, I’m not calling him a fascist. What I’m looking at are what in fact the characteristics are that we have seen in other places where a leader does in fact say that the institutions that we have don’t work at all that, again, above the law. Then also there are divisions in society. We know that. And somebody who exacerbates those divisions, rather than trying to find common ground is what the problem is. And so what I want to do, and by the way, I would have written this book no matter who was elected because there were various signs that kind of showed that there, the government was not responding to a lot of the things that the people wanted and that we needed to make sure that people ran for office believed in the government, understood that the press was absolutely vital to our existence and that we couldn’t kind of do hyper-nationalism, which made us try to look for some enemy to scapegoat. And those are the kinds of things frankly that have been part of the record. So I do think that that’s what we need to, kind of the watch out for list.
CUOMO: And look, obviously, you have Duterte, you have el-Sisi, you have Putin. You have a lot of different aspects that you cover in this book, Fascism: A Warning. Madeleine Albright, madam, thank you very much for being with us as always.
