Former NBC and MSNBC political referee (self-described) Chuck Todd resurfaced on The Bulwark’s podcast with his former MSNBC colleague Sam Stein, on Wednesday. Together, they reminisced about covering the White House and lamented the “collective weakness” of the current press pool in not standing up for the Associated Press during their feud with the Trump administration over not using “Gulf of America” in their style guide.
But despite noting that most outlets where not overtly coming to the AP’s aid, the duo held particular contempt for Fox News.
Near the top of their conversation, Todd equated what President Trump was doing to “testing the electric fence” like the Velociraptors in the original Jurassic Park movie. He went on to lament that the media wasn’t giving Trump a proper jolt, calling it a “moment of collective weakness”:
It's been a, I think it's an interesting challenge, if you will, that the press corps is having at this moment of collective weakness. Let's not pretend it's not, right? This is a moment of collective weakness. Right now this is sort of at least the press corps’ ability to perhaps persuade the public of its righteousness, if you will.
Addressing what he seemed to think was the silliness of the fight, Todd, a Florida native, argued that no one in Florida says anything further that just “gulf.” “I have lived in and out of Florida, my, you know, my whole life. Um, never does anybody say Gulf of Mexico side, Atlantic Ocean side. It is Gulf side, Atlantic side,” he explained.
Despite that, Todd argued that it was a hill worth dying on. “And, you know, I've vacillated on this, and I've come down on the side of it is because the next hill is gonna be bigger, right? It is, it is, this is not going to be a one-off, the one-time test. This is the first of many…”
Todd did admit that he has his own issues with the AP Style guide, particularly when it came to their default “negative” language against pro-lifers. He even recalled how he’d get in trouble with NBC Standards & Practices over it (Click “expand’):
They don't always follow AP style guide – You know, I have a, you know, I, I have my own issues with AP Style Guides at times when it comes to, for instance, how you refer to abortion rights supporters and anti-abortion rights supporters. You know, I have always, I came from The Hotline and we decided we should refer to each side by their preferred moniker, so we would go with pro-choice and pro-life.
I was so programmed to do it that I often said that on the air. I'd get lectured by standards at NBC and I'd continue to say it on the air because I understood, you know – You know, there were some on the, on the pro-life side, anti-abortion rights side who would, who would argue, you know, the description is automatically negative. “You're portraying us in a negative light.” Right? It's when you're, when the word “anti” is before [a word.]
“I've been disappointed in the inability of the rest of the White House press corps to sort of stand up to this moment,” Todd added. “I understand that everybody has a boss. It's my understanding that there are lots of journalists in that room that would like to be taking more of a stand than their bosses want them to.”
Todd seemed to float an idea for the AP to force the hand of other outlets to come to their aid by refusing to cover the pool’s expenses:
And here's the irony, you know, covering the president is very expensive. Being in the pool, you know, the government doesn't pay for the press corps to be in the pool. The Associated Press pays for that. And if you take that away, good luck finding other news organizations that are gonna be willing to spend that kind of money, even their preferred news org, you know. Unless I guess, you know, maybe some wealthy person will just sort of underwrite The Daily Caller or whatever, right, that to, to whatever, whatever manufactured replacement or The Daily Wire or whatever it is.
Stein eventually pivoted to recalling the Obama administration’s effort to force Fox News out of the press pool. “The backstory is the Obama White House was furious with Fox News. If I’m remembering correctly, it was mostly with Glenn Beck … And they, and they refused to let Fox News in the pool again…And what happened next was you guys, the TV people flipped,” he recounted.
“The TV networks said, ‘No,’” Todd added. “And, and I always, we always fought it and I always fought access pressure from the Obama White House because I viewed it as slippery slope.”
Much like CNN’s Jake Tapper did in 2022, Stein and Todd ignored how Fox had come to CNN’s aid when they were in a legal conflict with the Trump White House over Jim Acosta’s credentials and access. “Fox was the beneficiary of collective action back in 2009, as we discussed, and obviously it's a different entity now. I'm not gonna say I'm disappointed that they're not standing up for the AP because I never expect them to stand up for the AP,” Stein huffed.
For his part, Todd bemoaned, “I've handed my credibility to a handful of journalists over there who've never reciprocated,” as he took thinly veiled swings at Special Report anchor Bret Baier:
[C]ertainly we've seen the evolution of one of their larger news personalities go from trying really hard to follow in Britt Hume's footsteps and suddenly looks more like Sean Hannity every day. And it's a shame, you know, cause I thought – Cause he really cared about those that reputation. And I think really actually cared about being a journalist first and wanting to sort of walk that line, understood what his audience was, and instead now just wants to have tee time with the president. I hope he enjoys it.
Earlier in the podcast, Todd opined about “the irony” of how Fox News was better under Roger Ailes and respected their journalists more:
I would also argue that the irony is that – and I, and this is just deep irony is that Fox News when it was run by Roger Ailes, allowed journalists to be journalists at Fox. The current version of Fox News – I think Jennifer Griffin tries to practice journalism. I think, you know, I think Chad Pergram. I think there's still journalists that work – I always say Fox is not a journalistic organization. There are journalists that there are people that practice journalism that happen to work at Fox. Right?
“But it is not a journalistic enterprise at all,” he said. “This is not how Fox is run now. It is just run as an amplification message machine.”
And MSNBC wasn’t, Chuck?
The transcript is below. Click "expand" to read:
The Bulwark
SAM STEIN: Chuck, let's start broad picture. What's your, what's your sense of what's happening here?
CHUCK TODD: Well, I feel like this is the Trump White House and Donald Trump testing the electric fence, right? I've always thought the best metaphor to Donald Trump is that first Jurassic Park where they all go, ‘oh my God, they don't ever test the fence in the same place,’ right? Like, you know, the dinosaurs have a brain, um, the Velociraptors know what they're doing.
STEIN: Right.
TODD: So, this is no doubt this is testing the fence, right? And this is what makes, I think. It's been a, I think it's an interesting challenge, if you will, that the press corps is having at this moment of collective weakness. Let's not pretend it's not, right? This is a moment of collective weakness. Right now this is sort of at least the press corps’ ability to perhaps persuade the public of its righteousness, if you will.
And you know, I had this conversation with Chris Cillizza a few days ago where he we were debating, is this a mountain, is this a molehill, right? And you can sit here and say, oh jeez, what you, you know – I spent a lot of time in Pensacola, which is a Gulf – which is on the Gulf Coast. You know what, nobody in Pensacola calls the Gulf. Uh, anything after – they don't say anything after the word “gulf.”
STEIN: It’s “the gulf.”
TODD: Hey, it's the Gulf.
STEIN: THE Gulf.
TODD: Nobody, I have lived in this. I have lived in and out of Florida, my, you know, my whole life. Um, never does anybody say Gulf of Mexico side, Atlantic Ocean side. It is Gulf side Atlantic side.
STEIN: I guess we should pause for a second because for the uninitiated, the issue here is that the Associated Press has decided that it is going to continue to refer to the Gulf as the Gulf of Mexico. Despite a Trump executive order rebranding it as the Gulf of America. Since then, Trump and the White House have said you can't come into the pool, which is essentially a group of journalists that cover, uh, that are tasked with covering the president as he moves around day in day out, and then they've escalated, so you can't come on Air Force One. They can't come into the Oval Office, um, and that's where we stand.
So yes, back to Pensacola, they call it the Gulf.
TODD: So, the point is, I don't know anybody in America that refers to the Gulf outside of just one word, the Gulf. So, we could – I understand if the average person who isn't sort of, you know, a longtime journalist or sitting there going, is this, is this the, is this a hill worth dying on?
STEIN: Right.
TODD: Right. And, you know, I've vacillated on this, and I've come down on the side of it is because the next hill is gonna be bigger, right? It is, it is, this is not going to be a one-off, the one-time test. This is the first of many, and this is about essentially, you know, trying to bring, you know, the essentially the language of journalism, you know, when, when NBC Standards makes decisions, they look to the AP style guide first.
They don't always follow AP style guide – You know, I have a, you know, I, I have my own issues with AP Style Guides at times when it comes to, for instance, how you refer to abortion rights supporters and anti-abortion rights supporters. You know, I have always, I came from The Hotline and we decided we should refer to each side by their preferred moniker, so we would go with pro-choice and pro-life.
I was so programmed to do it that I often said that on the air. I'd get lectured by standards at NBC and I'd continue to say it on the air because I understood, you know – You know, there were some on the, on the pro-life side, anti-abortion rights side who would, who would argue, you know, the description is automatically negative. “You're portraying us in a negative light.” Right? It's when you're, when the word “anti” is before –
STEIN: But the issue here is it's not they're taking the choice away from the outlet and giving it to the comms team.
TODD: There's no doubt and that's – But my point is, is that AP has – it is more than just, you know, the leading wire service arguably in the world, you know, Reuters might have a, you know, Reuters is the other sort of –
STEIN: They would make a claim to the international one, but yeah, go ahead.
TODD: No doubt, but those are the two. And so, this is about Trump wanting to control language police too a little bit or certainly that, you know, the Trump communications shop on that front. So, this is a test of wealth.
I've been – I've been disappointed in the inability of the rest of the White House press corps to sort of stand up to this moment. I understand that everybody has a boss. It's my understanding that there are lots of journalists in that room that would like to be taking more of a stand than their bosses want them to, which I think is, is, you know, this is a reminder, you know, we've already seen all the capitulations of the various corporate entities that that own news organizations that we've been watching. And it's extending to this sort of lack of a showdown.
And here's the irony, you know, covering the president is very expensive. Being in the pool, you know, the government doesn't pay for the press corps to be in the pool. The Associated Press pays for that. And if you take that away, good luck finding other news organizations that are gonna be willing to spend that kind of money, even their preferred news org, you know. Unless I guess, you know, maybe some wealthy person will just sort of underwrite The Daily Caller or whatever, right, that to, to whatever, whatever manufactured replacement or The Daily Wire or whatever it is.
STEIN: Sure.
TODD: But it's extraordinarily expensive and I'll tell you what Donald Trump would miss: if there was no longer a press pool that was traveling with him.
(…)
STEIN: And now we get to what you were talking about, which is what is recourse here. And I'm reminded of something actually quite similar that happened when you and I are both at the White House in 2009.
The backstory is the Obama White House was furious with Fox News. If I’m remembering correctly, it was mostly with Glenn Beck, for –
TODD: At the time it was a Glenn Beck issue.
STEIN: Conspiratorial chalkboard musings. And they, and they refused to let Fox News in the pool again, and they were – a specific event was, um. I think it had to do with a –
TODD: It was Treasury event.
STEIN: A Treasury event about –
TODD: I want to say a round robin – It was probably a round robin interview.
STEIN: It was, it was about the auto bailout because it involved Feinberg and um, they just said, you're not – Fox is not gonna cover it. And what happened next was you guys, the TV people flipped.
TODD: The TV networks said, “No.” Right, we said, No.”
(…)
TODD: And, and I always, we always fought it and I always fought access pressure from the Obama White House because I viewed it as slippery slope.
STEIN: Yeah, of course.
TODD: The minute you let one White House do something, the next one would use it as precedent to prevent it from happening in the next one.
STEIN: Did you guys now, refresh my memory, did you guys say we will not cover the next held event?
TODD: We didn't say we -- I, I can't remember what our threat was, but we're just like, you just, the pool goes away. Like we're, we're not going to participate in this event.
(…)
TODD: I would also argue that the irony is that – and I, and this is just deep irony is that Fox News when it was run by Roger Ailes, allowed journalists to be journalists at Fox. The current version of Fox News – I think Jennifer Griffin tries to practice journalism. I think, you know, I think Chad Pergram. I think there's still journalists that work – I always say Fox is not a journalistic organization. There are journalists that there are people that practice journalism that happen to work at Fox. Right? But it is not a journalistic enterprise at all.
Ironically, Roger Ailes knew he couldn't have credibility at night if he didn't have real journalism. I mean, you know, Brett Hume, at the end of the day, is a journalist first, and he always had, and he fought really hard and, and you – By the way, you see glimmers of it, right, which is why they limit Brit. I feel like Brit Hume's airtime keeps shrinking all the time over there because he's – he will stubbornly speak truth to power and inconvenient times for the Fox audience.
But the point was Roger knew he had to have credible journalists in the daytime in order for the folks at night to get credibility. This is not how Fox is run now. It is just run as an amplification message machine. It is not. There are, like I said, there are still a few legacy people over there that practice journalism as best they can under the circumstances with which they have to work, but it is a totally different animal today than it was.
(…)
STEIN: Fox was the beneficiary of collective action back in 2009, as we discussed, and obviously it's a different entity now. I'm not gonna say I'm disappointed that they're not standing up for the AP because I never expect them to stand up for the AP. But I'm wondering if you're disappointed, having stood up for Fox yourself.
TODD: I've given up on – There's – Look, I don't wanna – I don't want to name call, but I've given up. I've, I've handed my credibility to a handful of journalists over there who've never reciprocated. When times were tough – When times were tough for them, I went out of my way to defend a couple of them. When times were tough, you know, an unfair criticism or character assassination that was taking place.
And you know, these people don't stand, you know, they're just, you know, there – there's, there's certainly we've seen the evolution of one of their larger news personalities go from trying really hard to follow in Britt Hume's footsteps and suddenly looks more like Sean Hannity every day.
STEIN: Right.
TODD: And it's a shame, you know, cause I thought – Cause he really cared about those that reputation. And I think really actually cared about being a journalist first and wanting to sort of walk that line, understood what his audience was, and instead now just wants to have tee time with the president. I hope he enjoys it.
STEIN: Chuck, thank you so much. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. We're gonna get you back to talk college football when the season comes, maybe.
TODD: I'd love that, man.
