On Friday's MSNBC Live, hosts Stephanie Ruhle and Ali Velshi had a contentious debate with Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach over the issue of the Obama administration's DACA program that protects from deportation illegal immigrants who entered the country as children. Ruhle bristled at one point when her Republican guest recommended that illegal immigrants arrested for gang activity should be deported even if police departments decline to charge them.
Ruhle showed hostility as she jumped in: "I'm sorry, sir, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, sir. If you -- there are many, many people -- you're presumed innocent until proven guilty in the United States of America."
At one point during the segment, Velshi brought up the alleged fact that DACA beneficiaries are not eligible to stay in the country if they have committed crimes:
By definition, if you are in DACA, you can't have committed a crime. If you have committed a crime, you're out. So from a perspective of prosecutorial -- right, and you can't get renewed, correct. From a perspective of prosecutorial discretion, meaning we don't have the endless resources to deal with all of this -- these guys aren't a priority.
Kobach pointed out the flaw in the MSNBC host's claims as he recalled that DACA only excludes illegals who have not been "convicted" of a crime
The two MSNBC hosts both jumped in to mis-correct their Republican guest:
RUHLE: Hold on a second. If you haven't been convicted --
VELSHI: You haven't committed a crime.
RUHLE: You haven't committed a crime.
Kobach explained DACA sometimes shields illegal immigrants involved in gang activity from deportation if their cases are not prosecuted due to limited law enforcement resources:
So what happens is a lot of gang bangers get arrested, but the state won't have the resources to prosecute all of them, and so they are released. It used to be before DACA that the local county sheriff would release them to ICE in the hopes that ICE would deport them, but we have many cases of such individuals who are getting the DACA amnesty.
They've been arrested -- they haven't yet been convicted -- but that arrest isn't enough to disqualify them from DACA. So the DACA cross -- we shouldn't have any illusion here that DACA is a cross-section of the illegal alien population. There are criminals -- there are scholars. But they are -- it's not an especially higher achieving cross section of the illegal alien population.
Ruhle then jumped in to inject: "Okay, but we have to make it clear, if you're not convicted of a crime, in the eyes of the U.S. government, we don't believe you've committed one."
After Kobach responded, "Well, but, on the other hand, if you have been arrested, and you are a gang member -- which is some of the case of these DACA aliens according to the testimony of ICE agents --" the two MSNBC hosts jumped back in:
RUHLE: I'm sorry, sir, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, sir. If you -- there are many, many people --
VELSHI: You're presumed innocent.
RUHLE: You're presumed innocent until proven guilty in the United States of America.
Kobach countered:
Right, but let's remember -- the courts, okay, right, but let me just unpack what you just said. Removal is not a criminal penalty. If you are removed to your home, you have not been convicted of a crime, and so, yes, law enforcement can make judgments and say, "You know what, we have to choose -- we have limited resources -- which person do we remove first?
Let's remove the person who is arrested for gang banging activity or who is a gang member." That is a decision that can be made, and it's not a presumption of innocence question because removal, again, is not a criminal penalty. You are simply asking the person to go back home.
Ruhle then shifted to suggesting that the gang banger illegal immigrant issue was not important because Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg supports DACA:
Okay, well, I'm going to take a leap. I might not know how Neil Gorsuch would vote, but I'm going to take a leap and say Mark Zuckerberg isn't looking to hire gang bangers. He has put together a coalition -- a group of CEOs who are backing the Dreamers.
President Trump -- a business first, pro-business President as he likes to say he is -- why wouldn't he or why wouldn't you see CEOs across the board -- the most successful CEOs -- saying, "We need these employees. Immigration -- these type of employees are going to help us build, help the U.S. economy." I don't think Mark Zuckerberg is looking to hire the Crips and the thugs.
Below is a transcript of relevant portions of the Friday, September 1, MSNBC Live with Velshi and Ruhle:
11:27 a.m. ET
ALI VELSHI: By definition, if you are in DACA, you can't have committed a crime. If you have committed a crime, you're out.
STEPHANIE RUHLE: And you can't get renewed.
VELSHI: So from a perspective of prosecutorial -- right, and you can't get renewed, correct. From a perspective of prosecutorial discretion, meaning we don't have the endless resources to deal with all of this -- these guys aren't a priority.
KRIS KOBACH: Well, actually, it's not correct to say that if you haven't committed a crime, you're not in DACA. Actually, DACA allows you to get the amnesty as long as you haven't been convicted. And so in one of the lawsuits I brought on behalf of 10 ICE agents --
RUHLE: Hold on a second. If you haven't been convicted --
VELSHI: You haven't committed a crime.
RUHLE: You haven't committed a crime.
KOBACH: Right. So what happens is a lot of gang bangers get arrested, but the state won't have the resources to prosecute all of them, and so they are released. It used to be before DACA that the local county sheriff would release them to ICE in the hopes that ICE would deport them, but we have many cases of such individuals who are getting the DACA amnesty. They've been arrested -- they haven't yet been convicted -- but that arrest isn't enough to disqualify them from DACA. So the DACA cross -- we shouldn't have any illusion here that DACA is a cross-section of the illegal alien population. There are criminals -- there are scholars. But they are -- it's not an especially higher achieving cross section of the illegal alien population.
RUHLE: Okay, but we have to make it clear, if you're not convicted of a crime, in the eyes of the U.S. government, we don't believe you've committed one.
KOBACH: Well, but, on the other hand, if you have been arrested, and you are a gang member -- which is some of the case of these DACA aliens according to the testimony of ICE agents --
RUHLE: I'm sorry, sir, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, sir. If you -- there are many, many people --
VELSHI: You're presumed innocent.
RUHLE: You're presumed innocent until proven guilty in the United States of America.
KOBACH: Right, but let's remember -- the courts, okay, right, but let me just unpack what you just said. Removal is not a criminal penalty. If you are removed to your home, you have not been convicted of a crime, and so, yes, law enforcement can make judgments and say, "You know what, we have to choose -- we have limited resources -- which person do we remove first? Let's remove the person who is arrested for gang banging activity or who is a gang member." That is a decision that can be made, and it's not a presumption of innocence question because removal, again, is not a criminal penalty. You are simply asking the person to go back home.
RUHLE: Okay, well, I'm going to take a leap. I might not know how Neil Gorsuch would vote, but I'm going to take a leap and say Mark Zuckerberg isn't looking to hire gang bangers. He has put together a coalition -- a group of CEOs who are backing the Dreamers. President Trump -- a business first, pro-business President as he likes to say he is -- why wouldn't he or why wouldn't you see CEOs across the board -- the most successful CEOs -- saying, "We need these employees. Immigration -- these type of employees are going to help us build, help the U.S. economy." I don't think Mark Zuckerberg is looking to hire the Crips and the thugs.KOBACH: Well, you often see CEOs and coalitions of business owners who will support amnesty of any sort. They support the legislative amnesties in Congress, and they support an amnesty like this one. Why do they do it? Because they want to see cheaper labor. If you have more labor -- especially alien labor is pushed into the market willing to accept employment for a lower wage or a lower salary, they are allowed to depress wages --
RUHLE: Do you think Google, Facebook and Apple are looking for cheap labor?
KOBACH: Sure. They want people cheaper. Look, all of these employers would like to hire someone at a lower cost. And so if they employ somebody -- the same applies to college graduates. If you can get someone from another country at a lower price, many employers unfortunately will seek out that person who they can hire for a cheaper price.
