On Friday's CNN Tonight, during a discussion of public attitudes toward Hillary Clinton, host Don Lemon was oddly set off when GOP guest and Donald Trump supporter Boris Epshteyn declared that Clinton is viewed as untrustworthy because "she's committing so many crimes," as the CNN host jumped in and spent almost two minutes insisting that it is somehow unacceptable to claim that someone "committed" a crime if the person has never been convicted, as if it were a journalistic violation even for a guest to give such an opinion about anyone.
The bizarre argument began after liberal CNN political commentator Bob Beckel recalled former President Bill Clinton's impeachment and argued that Hillary Clinton's perception of being dishonest is the result of being repeatedly criticized by her political foes for so long. Epshteyn jumped in to inject: "She's committing so many crimes. That's why, Bob."
As Beckel bristled, declaring that "you better be careful before you say things like that," Lemon also jumped in: "And you should be careful of that (inaudible) that she's committed a crime because -- hold on. This is something you have to be clear about, okay, especially as a network. She's not been convicted of any crime."
As Epshteyn retorted, "It doesn't mean she didn't commit them," Lemon continued: "She's been accused of committing crimes. Boris, Boris, Boris, I have to be accurate. ... I have to be accurate here, as a journalist, and CNN as a network. She has not been convicted of any crime, so you can't say she 'committed.'"
After Epshteyn recalled some of Clinton's actions that appear clearly illegal, Lemon reiterated: "Boris, I understand that. She has been accused -- the only time you can say someone has committed a crime is when they have been convicted of a crime."
After a bit more arguing back and forth, the GOP guest conceded, "We can agree to disagree," but Lemon was still not ready to move on as he responded: "No, we can't disagree. That -- it's -- Boris, it's called a 'fact."
After Epshteyn noted that he is an attorney, and recalled that it is common for prosecutors to state matter of factly in court that someone "committed" a crime, the CNN host persisted: "Because you're a lawyer, that doesn't mean that you're accurate."
After Epshteyn and Beckel worked in a couple more comments, Lemon concluded the segment: "So, for the sake of this network, Hillary Clinton has been accused of crimes, has not been convicted, so it is not fair to say she has committed crimes."
Below is a transcript of the relevant portion of the Friday, September 9, CNN Tonight:
10:35 p.m. ET
BOB BECKEL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there were 28 hearings on Benghazi, and Hillary Clinton got through that, and there was no way the committee could do anything. Bill Clinton was the second President in United States history to be impeached, and it was laughed out of the United States Senate because it was a Republican right-wing effort. They have been -- Hillary Clinton has been on the defensive every day she's been in public life, and you wonder why there is some trust problems.BORIS EPSHTEYN, TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISOR: She's committing so many crimes. That's why, Bob.
(Several panel members start talking at once.)
BECKEL: -I like you, but you better be careful before you say things like that. I think you're a decent guy, but you should not-
DON LEMON: And you should be careful of that.
BECKEL: -say that somebody commits a crime-
LEMON: -that she's committed a crime because -- hold on. This is something you have to be clear about, okay, especially as a network. She's not been convicted of any crime.
EPSHTEYN: It doesn't mean she didn't commit them.
LEMON: She's been accused of committing crimes.
EPSHTEYN: Doesn't mean she didn't commit them.
LEMON: Boris, Boris, Boris, I have to be accurate.
BECKEL: Oh, come on. You sound like Joe McCarthy now.
LEMON: Hold on, Bob. I have to be accurate here, as a journalist, and CNN as a network. She has not been convicted of any crime, so you can't say she committed.
EPSHTEYN: I can say she committed.
LEMON: You can say -- you cannot say she committed.
EPSHTEYN: Absolutely. As an attorney, I'll tell you (inaudible)
LEMON: You can say she's been accused of committing.
EPSHTEYN: Well, let me give you an example without Bob yelling in my ear. On March 2 of 2015, the New York Times ran a story that she had a home brew server. On March 3, there was a preservation letter. On March 4, there was a subpoena. In late March 2015, people connected to her bleached the server.
LEMON: I understand that. We understand that.
EPSHTEYN: That is obstruction of justice.
LEMON: Boris, I understand that. Boris, I understand that. She has been accused -- the only time you can say someone has committed a crime is when they have been convicted of a crime.
EPSHTEYN: That is incorrect.
LEMON: Yes, it is.
EPSHTEYN: You can say they committed a -- that's what a prosecutor would do.
LEMON: Yes, it is.
EPSHTEYN: No.
LEMON: Yes, it is, Boris.
EPSHTEYN: We can agree to disagree, but a prosecutor (inaudible)-
LEMON: No, we can't disagree. That -- it's -- Boris, it's called a "fact."
EPSHTEYN: Don, I'm a lawyer, you're not. A prosecutor in court can absolutely say somebody committed a crime.
LEMON: Because you're a lawyer, that doesn't mean that you're accurate.
EPSHTEYN: I am accurate. I'm right on the spot. You can check the law books. Check the law books.
BECKEL: Can I just say one thing? I could make the suggestion that Donald Trump committed crimes, but I won't because I can't prove it.
EPSHTEYN: Yeah, well, plenty of Democrats do, Bob.
LEMON: Hold on. Can we stand by? So, for the sake of this network, Hillary Clinton has been accused of crimes, has not been convicted, so it is not fair to say she has committed crimes.
