On Thursday, the panel on MSNBC’s Morning Joe discussed the President’s vocal opinions and criticisms, concerning the ongoing court ruling on the executive immigration order. Joe Scarborough and his co-host Mika Brzezinski called Trump’s actions “stunning” and “dangerous” All who were present during the discussion alluded to Trump being an autocrat and a tyrant, or at the very least that he’s headed in that direction.
Scarborough was first to comment on the possibility that Trump could be an autocrat with a history lesson:“It is dangerous. Again, for anyone who knows the history of the 20th century, it is dangerous when you have executives trying to denigrate the Judicial branch and Judicial Independence....There is much to sort through in those statements. All of them, again, deeply disturbing.” Scarborough continued, boxing Trump into two very bad positions: “When you say what he said, about federal court judges, it either is – an attempt to intentionally discredit them so he can strip them of power down the road, or it's a complete ignorance of the system.”
Following Scarborough’s monologue, historian Jon Meacham declared: “It’s not even a 230 year tradition he's messing with here. It's a thousand years. It's Magna Carta through 1689....You're talking about one of the fundamental insights of the western tradition is the rule of law and how is law administered, but by an independent judiciary? –– The President, as ever, is playing with fire here.”
After questioning Trump’s ability to uphold the Constitution and the law, Scarborough, for the second time, cited the importance of 20th century history: “And it also, again, the historical precedence are chilling. I don’t even want to mention their names. But, I will say, some of the most dangerous autocrats of the 19th or the 20th century. Their two goals were to, first, undermine an independent judiciary, and, second, to undermine a free press. This crosses a bright, bright line.”
Scarborough then interrupted Brzezinski to give another example of Trump’s disturbing and dangerous comments:
Where you have a raid, that military sources tell me was bungled in Yemen, military sources. And they also tell the Times and they tell other people that. And then you have the White House saying anyone that questions the success of the raid is denigrating the life and the death of the man who died in that raid — Including John McCain, and I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I know there's a steep learning process — I just want to say this is dangerous language just like it's dangerous language when you say that somebody has betrayed America because they don't interpret your version of law the way you want them to. Or when you call court decision outrageous. These are the words of autocrats. I'm not assigning any intent – But I am just saying at this point, it's sloppy. But it’s gotta stop. It's got to stop now. It's got to stop now!
Later on, the same topic was brought up again regarding how Trump is mirroring other autocratic and tyrannical leaders. Political analyst Mark Halperin went on to say:“You can't back down in our business to hold the government accountable. And if the government's response is if a single American died, you can't give scrutiny to whether something was a success or not, it's unacceptable. And it's something we’ve seen previous governments do and we need to be vigilant about it.”
As he continued, Halperin explained Trump is “Creating a very fragile set of relationships with what he has done.” Brzezinski joined in, prepping Joe for response similar to ones earlier: “Joe, I'm wondering if you can sort of characterize what the potentials are here in terms of the dangers, staying within the lines of just covering the story of just what has been said, of creating an alternative reality that is built on lies.” Scarborough willfully answered the leading question with: “Right. And then also coming from fake news outlets taken all together. Pretty soon, you have a population that is numbed and numbed to what the truth is and numb to what a lie is....And pretty soon, you have the ability for lies to begin trumping the truth.”
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Each statement Scarborough made, his co-host enthusiastically agreed with him. Scarborough continued: “It is very concerning and it is absolutely critical that everyone spells these lies out. It's more critical that somebody, again in the White House tells the President you've got to get your facts straight, unless -- Unless this is a specific strategy of yours to so numb the population with propaganda that, pretty soon, they can't discern the truth from the lies and pretty soon, you do create your own alternative reality. That is Orwellian --” Brzezinski agreed saying it was “chilling” Scarborough ended with, “It is. It is autocratic. It is the steps that were used by several tyrants in the 20th century. It is dangerous. Facts matter. The truth matters.”
In the noon Eastern hour on MSNBC, anchor Andrea Mitchell discussed this topic with Justice correspondent Pete Williams: “Coming from the President, Pete, suggesting that if there is a terror attack, it will be at the feet of the judges. The judge in Seattle, and now the appeals court judges who have not yet ruled. The way he said he had watched television and watched their hearings and there was a lot of stuff, and that it was political -- Have you seen this kind of attack on the judiciary before?” Williams tamped down the hyperbolic rhetoric:
Yes. You know, it sort of reached its crescendo I think several years ago when Republicans in congress were especially critical of some federal rulings and said the judges out to be impeached that the judiciary was out of control. There was a time that Newt Gingrich led a group of Republicans attacking the judiciary and questioning whether they should have lifetime appointments and all kinds of things.
It's unusual to have a President criticizing judges while the White House has a case in front of a court. But you know, Franklin Roosevelt was pretty critical of the supreme court too and I think the other thing is, there is sort of an instinctive recoil from whenever anybody attacks judges. Guess what? Judges have pretty thick skin. They can take it.
I think what the judiciary is most concerned about is consistent attacks that question the judiciary's role in the constitutional system. That's what really concerns them. I suspect that's what’s behind the comments that Judge Gorsuch made. But, you know, it's not unprecedented for a president to be upset about judges.
Here is the February 9 exchange:
MSNBC - Mornining Joe
6AM EasternMIKA BRZEZINSKI: The President has been vocal in his criticism of the court imposed stay on his immigration executive order, including last weekend, calling the federal judge, who first blocked the order, a so-called judge. I– I found that to be stunning, that– that string of sound bites, Joe.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: Well, it's more than stunning. It is dangerous. Again, for anyone who knows the history of the 20th century, it is dangerous when you have executives trying to denigrate the judicial branch and judicial Independence. Jon Meacham, there is much to sort through in those statements. All of them, again, deeply disturbing. This is, you know I– I talk about how we have to sort through the things to worry about and the things not to worry about. We all can't always be screeching up here -- you know, if he will tweets at a movie star, that's just embarrassing. If he tweets at a department store, you know, that -- there are some more concerns there that ratchets it up a bit. But when you say what he said about federal court judges, it either is– an attempt to intentionally discredit them so he is strip them of power down the road, or it's a complete ignorance of the system. He talks about high school students. I think a lot of high school students could tell him that the ninth circuit is left of center. The 11th circuit is right of center. These things balance out. It is a system of checks and balances that began with Madison and Hamilton, and presidents do not speak this way. I saw you and I both – quoted Jefferson last night in some tweets about the extraordinary importance of judicial Independence.
JON MEACHAM: It's– It’s not even a 230-year tradition he's messing with here. It's a thousand years. It's magna carta through 1689. I know that Mika wanted me to bring up magna carta this morning.
MIKA BRZEZINSKI: I was hoping.
JON MEACHAM: I know. But you're talking about one of the fundamental insights of the western tradition is the rule of law and how is-- law administered, but by an independent judiciary? During World War II Churchill actually put the rule of law at the top of the list of what the allies were fighting for. And – in our own time, and Joe you remember this from your quasi native region -- but remember the billboards around the south in the 1950s said impeach Earl Warren. Why did they say that, I wonder? It might’ve had something to do with 1954. And so he’s– Trump, as ever, the President, as ever, is playing with fire here. And it is something that, as you've said, is more significant than a lot of the other brush fires of the day because it goes straight at the question of separation of powers.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: It does. And it also, again, the historical precedence, Mark Halperin, are chilling. I don’t even want to mention their names. But, I will say, some of the most dangerous autocrats of the 19th or the 20th century. Their two goals were to, first, undermine an independent judiciary, and, second, to undermine a free press. This crosses a bright, bright line that conservatives in my party need to start talking about and need to start pushing back on.
MARK HALPERIN: What was particularly disturbing I thought about yesterday was he clearly was trying not to repeat what he had done over the weekend. There were times in the remarks that we just showed where he– did a stab at restraint. But this is and separating as you said at the top the stuff that happens is going to happen every day with the stuff that’s serious. This remains serious. The judiciary source of power as a coequal branch is the most fragile of the three because they have to be relied on and everyone has to agree that their word will hold even if you disagree with a particular decision. We’re all holding our breath for this decision today which I think in all likelihood will not be one the President likes, at least in full. And we are going to see what he’s gonna do about it.
SCARBOROUGH: Well he’s not going– He’s not gonna like– and this is what’s so maddening. Does he have no one around him that can tell him, Willie, you're not going to like what the ninth circuit said. The second I saw it was in Washington state, I said, okay, well we know how this is going to go. They have ruled against him in Washington. It's going to go to the ninth circuit. They will rule against him in the ninth circuit and then kicked to supreme court and, most likely he wins 5-3 even in a 4-4 court. Maybe even more than that. But— for him to say all of the things that he said yesterday, again, deeply disturbing because he keeps talking about how they’re political and he is trying to set them up for blame if there is a terror attack, which there is absolutely positively no evidence that we are facing an eminent threat right now.
__________________BRZEZINSKI: We talk about this being day 20 and it being exhausting for everybody involved and– concerning and stressful. But it's also day 20 and at some point these repeated remarks about Putin, the repeated attacks on our judicial system, they’re not mistakes any more, they’re not jokes any more. Even lying about the murder rate. It's the act of creating a reality that is not real, that perhaps --
SCARBOROUGH: Mika, can I throw one in for you?
BRZEZINSKI: Sure, sure.
SCARBOROUGH: Let me give you another one. Where you have a raid that military sources tell me was bungled in Yemen, military sources. And they also tell the Times and they tell other people that. And then you have the White House saying anyone that questions the success of the raid is denigrating the life and the death of the man who died in that raid.
WILLIE GESIT: Including John McCain.
SCARBOROUGH: Including John McCain and I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I know there's a steep learning process.
BRZEZINSKI: No.
SCARBOROUGH: I just want to say this is dangerous language just like it's dangerous language when you say that somebody has betrayed America because they don't interpret your version of law the way you want them to. Or when you call court decision outrageous. These are the words of autocrats. I'm not assigning any intent–
BRZEZINSKI: No, but we have to look at this.
SCARBOROUGH: But I am just saying at this point, it's sloppy. But it’s gotta stop.
BRZEZINSKI: Mike? At day 20, it's more than sloppy.
SCARBOROUGH: It's got to stop now. It's got to stop now!
_______________________
7AM EasternMARK HALPERIN: On the first point, amongst the hardest and most important thing the media does is during a time of war hold the government accountable. We saw it in Vietnam. We saw it during the Iraq war. You can't back down in our business to hold the government accountable. And if the government's response is if a single American died, you can't give scrutiny to whether something was a success or not, it's unacceptable. And it's something we’ve seen previous governments do and we need to be vigilant about it. On your second point, look. All of the Republicans are waiting to see if they can continue to swallow things they don't want to swallow from Donald Trump if he can pass --
SCARBOROUGH: Like Vladimir Putin this weekend.
HALPERIN: You could list a thousand but the Putin thing is a big one. If he keeps trying to get tax reform passed, I think they will stay with him but he is creating a very fragile set of relationships with what he has done.
BRZEZINSKI: Well also Joe, I'm wondering if you can sort of characterize what the potentials are here in terms of the dangers, staying within the lines of just covering the story of just what has been said, of creating an alternative reality that is built on lies. Like at this point, we have a list of things that have been said that are untrue, that are factually incorrect, coming from the White House, coming from the President. And that is --
SCARBOROUGH: Right. And what -- and then also coming from fake news outlets taken altogether. Pretty soon, you have a population that is numbed and numbed to what the truth is and numb to what a lie is.
BRZEZINSKI: Yep.
SCARBOROUGH: And pretty soon, you have the ability for lies to begin trumping the truth. So the more this happens, the more the President says, well, crime is at a 45-year high when actually, it's near a 45-year low. Or you have other statistics that are put out there that just aren't true.
BRZEZINSKI: Right.
SCARBOROUGH: It is very concerning and it is absolutely critical that everyone spells these lies out. It's more critical that somebody, again in the White House tells the President you've got to get your facts straight, unless --
BRZEZINSKI: They don't want to.
SCARBOROUGH: Unless this is a specific strategy of yours to so numb the population with propaganda that, pretty soon, they can't discern the truth from the lies and pretty soon, you do create your own alternative reality. That is Orwellian --
BRZEZINSKI: Chilling.
SCARBOROUGH: It is. It is autocratic. It is the steps that were used by several tyrants in the 20th century. It is dangerous. Facts matter. The truth matter. And Republicans, my party, must call this out. They have to do that.
