Without question, McGuirk came prepared to take on the man conceivably most responsible for his termination by CBS Radio, as well as his boss’s, Don Imus.
In fact, with McGuirk’s first words, it was made infinitely clear that viewers were in for quite a barnburner: “Let's get ready to box on FOX, I guess, huh?”
After the first question was posed to McGuirk, he tried to explain to the audience that Imus was an equal opportunity offender (readers are warned that some of the language is a bit graphic. As such, proceed with caution):
He called his wife the green ho, a cranky ho. I was a bald- headed stooge, light bulb head. His brother was fornicating with barnyard animals. People, all through the spectrum, everybody was savaged, so it was in that context that these comments were made.
With that out of the way, McGuirk set his sights on Sharpton:
The apology was appropriate. But it took on a life of its own after the Reverend Sharpton got involved.
And, Reverend, that's I think where -- I sense that there's a backlash out there, and I sense that -- I don't know if people -- if you're aware of people's perception of you. People view you as a sort of -- this is how they view you, with all due respect, as a crude, humorless opportunist, a race-baiter who's jealous of, say, Barack Obama and Harold Ford, Jr.'s, success, who's been rendered irrelevant, you and Jesse Jackson, by people like that, and that this was an opportunity for you to get your face back, to make yourself relevant again.
And that's where the anger stems from. You have a history yourself of uttering racial, anti-Semitic, homophobic epithets. And for you to be leading a charge like this, it strikes people as hypocritical. It's like O.J. advocating on behalf of battered spouses.
How marvelous. But that was just the beginning for McGuirk:
By what authority do you go around, with the bullhorn and bus loads of angry people, threatening corporations to achieve a goal that, by all accounts, is a self-serving one and doesn't really, you know, help the victims that you purport to help? It's all about Al Sharpton. That's what the anger is about.
Later on, Sean Hannity asked Sharpton the following:
You have used incendiary language often in your career. Hey, now, let me get my question out, and I'll give you a full answer, and then Bernard can respond. White interloper, white men were living in caves while we were building pyramids, these are Reverend Sharpton's words here. You called the African-American mayor of New York a whore, and you called him the n-word.
And my point is this: They will admit they were wrong. He's apologized on this show. Imus apologized to you. You have apologized for some of those, but not all of those. Why? Your career didn't end. Why would you fire them? Why would you be in a position of authority to judge them?
Great question that the media continually ignore as Sharpton points accusatory fingers at anyone he disagrees with. Of course, Sharpton never answered.
Color me unsurprised.
Regardless, McGuirk later made another point that was clearly overlooked by the media who never seem to see anything wrong with what Sharpton does:
Listen, in this case, I would say about the girls, these girls would have never have hurt -- these words didn't hurt these girls. And, again, the anger was legitimate. The apology was appropriate. But until you, Reverend Al, got involved, they probably never would have heard about it. They never would have been, quote, unquote, "scarred for life," had not you gotten involved for your own self-serving agenda so that you could make a name for yourself, so you could get back in the papers, because you're being overshadowed by Barack Obama.
McGuirk later expounded on this theme:
It was all about Al Sharpton. I mean, it got to that stage where they pretty much acquiesced and surrendered and appeased Al Sharpton.
I think he terrorized, it seemed like -- you know, I viewed it from the media perspective from watching on TV and reading the paper, as you guys did -- it seems like he terrorized some broadcast executives, that they were sort of in a fetal position, under their desk, sucking their thumbs, on their BlackBerries trying to coordinate their response to them.
After a break, McGuirk elaborated:
Again, you know, I'm not privy to the inside information, as I just said. It just appears that they were terrorized into making a bad decision by the Reverend Al. I mean, he obviously wasn't using bombs, but he was using threats of bull horns and busloads of angry people, and they made a bad decision, in my humble opinion.
It does not appear that way -- that's why public sentiment is what it is, by the way. And it's overwhelmingly, people are angry at what happened. People who didn't even like Imus, didn't even know Imus are against the decision that CBS made and NBC, for that matter.
So public sentiment is -- and it's all due to the perception here, because of the reverend, with all due respect, your record in the past. You have a very shady, questionable record in the past, and that you would lead such a charge, and have this impact, and the double standard, by the way, that's out there. Did you demand that Hillary Clinton give back that $800,000 to Timbaland? She was in his house. He uses words that are filthy and disgusting and degrading. She was in her house.
Of course, Sharpton never answered this question either.
As the debate moved to a conclusion, McGuirk told another truth about this whole sordid affair that has been largely lost in all the shouting:
First of all, Mr. Imus, apparently, is a fall guy for a gangsta rap culture. I mean, it started from the top. And the words that were used were not originated on the "Imus in the Morning" program. They were originated in the hip-hop culture, in the gangsta rap world. And we used those words, again, inadvertently hurt some girls, and apologized.
So true.
What follows is a full transcript of this debate.
ANNOUNCER: Live from the FOX News headquarters in New York City, a special edition of "Hannity & Colmes." Six rounds between the Reverend Al Sharpton and Don Imus' radio producer, Bernard McGuirk, side-by-side in our New York studio, a "Hannity & Colmes" exclusive.
SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: And welcome to this special edition of "Hannity & Colmes." I'm Sean Hannity.
From the controversy surrounding Don Imus to the news just this week about radio hosts Opie and Anthony and their controversial comments, the public's attention has become focused on what is acceptable and what is not. And that is where our debate takes us tonight.
Now, first, we'd like to introduce the man who fought harder than anyone else for the dismissal of Don Imus, from the National Action Network, we welcome the Reverend Al Sharpton.
And on the other side, Don Imus' radio producer and the man whose exchange with Imus has turned the media world upside down, we welcome producer of the "Don Imus Show," Bernard McGuirk is here with us tonight.
Thanks for being here.
BERNARD MCGUIRK, FORMER "DON IMUS" RADIO PRODUCER: How are you? Let's get ready to box on FOX, I guess, huh?
HANNITY: First of all, thank you both for being here...
MCGUIRK: Not at all.
HANNITY: ... because these are important issues we're dealing with here. We're dealing with issues of free speech. We're dealing with issues of what's acceptable in the public airwaves. There are so many different controversies emerging here.
Let me start, Reverend Al, with you. He's fired. You wanted him fired. You wanted Don Imus fired. He's out of a job right now. He's apologized to the women's Rutgers basketball team. Imus apologized repeatedly. Are you still glad that that happened?
THE REVEREND AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: It's not about glad. I think the first statements I said is, "Nobody wants to see anyone hung." We don't want to see people continually harmed due to their race or their gender.
This was never about them. I said that to Imus. This was about the women and the people of African dissent that were constantly being castigated. And Mr. Imus in the past had apologized to and about and said he wasn't going to do it again. So we went to advertisers and say we don't want to engage in supporting advertisers that support that.
HANNITY: When this whole thing happened, Reverend, he went on your radio show, and I watched his apology, because he gave multiple apologies. And, again, I said to you, because he's taken shots at me, which we'll get to. But he seemed sincere, and he reached out to you, and he said, "Reverend, I want to make good on this," even after he was fired.
First of all, the women's Rutgers basketball team never asked for his firing. They accepted his apology. He met with them even after he lost two jobs. Why wouldn't you have accepted the apology and work with him in that...
SHARPTON: If you listen to the statements that we made, Sean, when he came on my radio show, I just said to him, "Forgiveness is not the point. Nobody does not forgive people. We've all been forgiven." The question is the penalty, and the question is whether advertisers that make money and those communities that have consistently been offended can continue to have people apologize, say, "I'm not going to do it again," and do it again.
He sat with Clarence Page and made the same apology and same commitment. It has nothing to do with forgiveness. When I was asked, after he was first suspended for two weeks, should the Rutgers team meet, in my opinion? Yes. They should meet. Should they forgive? Yes. I said I forgave a guy that tried to kill me. You and I went through this dialogue.
HANNITY: I did, and we went through this.
SHARPTON: So, I mean, the question is not forgiveness.
HANNITY: One of the things...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: The minister that convened the meeting, and that was the moderator, Reverend Soares, said he should be fired.
HANNITY: Let me ask this. You know, I guess everything is about context, texture.
You know, Bernie, I watched the show a lot over the years. I've listened to Imus. I've listened to you over the years. You've said when you were on this program, no sacred cows. As a matter of fact, the harshest words were often what you guys said about each other.
MCGUIRK: Absolutely. Imus, you know, himself took the brunt of -- he was savaged. He was a cradle-robbing cadaver, you know, whose proctologist mistakenly operated on his face.
HANNITY: Called his wife a ho.
MCGUIRK: He called his wife the green ho, a cranky ho. I was a bald- headed stooge, light bulb head. His brother was fornicating with barnyard animals. People, all through the spectrum, everybody was savaged, so it was in that context that these comments were made.
And they were over the line. The angle was legitimate. The apology was appropriate. But it took on a life of its own after the Reverend Sharpton got involved.
And, Reverend, that's I think where -- I sense that there's a backlash out there, and I sense that -- I don't know if people -- if you're aware of people's perception of you. People view you as a sort of -- this is how they view you, with all due respect, as a crude, humorless opportunist, a race-baiter who's jealous of, say, Barack Obama and Harold Ford, Jr.'s, success, who's been rendered irrelevant, you and Jesse Jackson, by people like that, and that this was an opportunity for you to get your face back, to make yourself relevant again.
And that's where the anger stems from. You have a history yourself of uttering racial, anti-Semitic, homophobic epithets. And for you to be leading a charge like this, it strikes people as hypocritical. It's like O.J. advocating on behalf of battered spouses.
SHARPTON: If we're going to have a debate, if we're going to have a debate of name-calling...
ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: Let's give the reverend a chance to respond. One at a time.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... debate of name-calling and all that, first of all, if you want to have a substantive discussion, as you announced, because with the new controversy this week, and because of the Imus thing, we can have it. I'm not going to sit here and defend against what he says people's perception -- then I'm going to say that is not -- that doesn't solve anything.
I can sit here and say people's perception of him. That's not important. I can list things he's said all over the years. That's not important. If you want to have a substantive discussion, let's have it. If you want to sit up and call me names, knock yourself out.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Reverend, let me ask you this. It just was mentioned about the commercial advertisers pulling out, and that was one of the reasons. Did you and your group go to CBS and make any kind of threat and say, "If you don't do x, we are going to go to your sponsors"? Was there any pressure brought to bear by you, in terms of the advertisers on Imus' show?
SHARPTON: First of all, the first group that came out was the National Association of Black Journalists, who were fellow journalists, that said he should be fired, he's gone over the line, and he promised...
COLMES: But I'm talking about you, because you're the center of controversy. We want to know what you did.
SHARPTON: That's not true. That is not true. The National Association of Black Journalists is what started the call, who are people in the media business, do this every day. And we came in, National Action Network, and then other civil rights groups later. Everyone collectively met with CBS and NBC after making a public statement to the advertisers. I think, when we first met with NBC, they had already suspended Mr. Imus...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: But did you make any...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... suspension wasn't a firing. Did you make any threats to CBS or NBC, in terms of, "We're going to gather, we're going to get together, and we're going to boycott"?
SHARPTON: What we said was that we wanted him fired to the advertisers. And we met with both stations, as I met with Imus, and Imus asked for the meeting, to state our position, period.
COLMES: Bernard?
MCGUIRK: Who anointed Al Sharpton the P.C. police chief, is what people want to know. There's a lot of anger...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: No, it's not a personal thing.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: One at a time. Go ahead, Bernard. Go ahead.
MCGUIRK: You make the charge. By what authority do you go around, with the bullhorn and bus loads of angry people, threatening corporations to achieve a goal that, by all accounts, is a self-serving one and doesn't really, you know, help the victims that you purport to help? It's all about Al Sharpton. That's what the anger is about. That's why...
SHARPTON: First of all, first of all, only you are going to sit up here and say there's anger. I don't know, and it doesn't really matter to this discussion whether people are angry or not. There are people angry on the other side. That's not the discussion.
MCGUIRK: They're angry.
SHARPTON: Well, fine, and there are people that were angry about what was said. And I think that, again, I'm not going to get into that, and you can call me names all night, Mr. McGuirk.
MCGUIRK: I'm not calling you names. With all due respect, I'm saying that...
SHARPTON: Well, with all due respect, that's not what I'm going -- whatever name you want to call me, fine. I'll tell you what. I'll stipulate to the court, any name he can name me, I stipulate. Now, let's get -- may I finish?
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Go ahead, Reverend.
SHARPTON: So we stipulate any name you want to call me. The uglier the better is no problem. The point becomes that consumers have the right to say to their advertisers, "Are your standards going to be where people are attacked based on their gender and race?" Now, that's a little different than attacking you or attacking himself.
HANNITY: We'll raise the question when we come back. There's a lot of issues. Is it selectively applied? We'll raise that question. And I think what Bernard is raising here is, you've had a past of controversy. And, in other words, should that be relevant, in this discussion, considering he's controversial, so are you? You've said outrageous things.
SHARPTON: Again, you know, we went through this with our debate. You want to eat up time and say, "I said this," and I say, "I didn't," then you're not trying to have a debate, Sean.
HANNITY: No, no...
SHARPTON: You want to go through all of that again. I could go through a list of what they said. Is it relevant?
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: We're going to take a break. We'll come back from this, round two of Sharpton-McGuirk, coming up in just a few short minutes. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON IMUS, RADIO HOST: Unscathed? Are you crazy? How am I unscathed by this? Don't you think I'm humiliated? Don't you think I'm embarrassed?
SHARPTON: You're not as humiliated as the young black women are.
IMUS: I didn't say I was. I didn't say I was. It's not a contest of who's the most humiliated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLMES: We're back to our debate. You know, it's interesting. Here is Don Imus asking for forgiveness, saying he's sorry, gets the acceptance of the team. You recently apologized to Mitt Romney because of something you said.
SHARPTON: No, I apologized to any Mormons that were harmed by a distortion of what I said. That's what I said. And I'm going to meet with the heads of the Mormon Church. There are many people that have questioned the Mormons. I'm not one of them. "Time" magazine...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: But you're talking about context. You were taken out of context.
SHARPTON: You raised something that I'm going to answer.
COLMES: Go ahead.
SHARPTON: "Time" magazine comes out Monday with a real revealing piece why a lot of church leaders have the position that they don't respect the Mormon Church as a legitimate Christian church or whatever because they believe God is in the flesh and the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, all according to "Time" magazine.
My position was not that. That's not what I said. What I said was referring to atheists. And I did not want to in any way offend people that I was not directing it for. Now, if I shared with a lot of Christians that view, I would have said that.
COLMES: Right, but you were talking about context, and you, of course, wanted to now have the opportunity to put it in context, have people understand what you truly meant.
SHARPTON: So are you trying to compare me talking about whether someone is a true believer in God, according to what I believe, or somebody calling people nappy-headed ho?
COLMES: What I'm trying to...
SHARPTON: I think that's the most outrageous analogy I've ever heard.
COLMES: What I'm trying to compare is putting something that was said in the context it was meant to be, and giving one an opportunity to air it out, to have a discussion, and to have everybody understand, what was really meant?
SHARPTON: Let me ask you this. That's fair. That's fair. What context did you all mean nappy-headed ho?
MCGUIRK: That was over the line, by the way, but there was comedic context. The program engages in some brilliant satire and some low-brow, juvenile humor. We're on 20 hours a week, and that was a throwaway comment...
SHARPTON: But you were referring to those girls, right?
MCGUIRK: That's right. And the apology was appropriate. The angle was legitimate. The apology was accepted.
SHARPTON: But that's not what he said.
MCGUIRK: It was taken out of context.
SHARPTON: He's trying to act like for me to refer to atheists -- and people say, no, I must have been talking about Mormons, is a different context.
COLMES: No, you wanted a clarification.
SHARPTON: You're not denying that you were talking about the Rutgers girls, are you?
MCGUIRK: Well, no, I'm not denying that at all, of course not.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: No, we're talking about having an opportunity to put everything in context, for you to say, "Here's what I truly meant," because your sentence, taken out of context, sounds like you're going after Mitt Romney and say, well, you know, Christians are going to vote for somebody else. That's what it sounded like.
SHARPTON: A lot of Christians...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: A lot of Christians are raising questions.
COLMES: As if Mitt Romney isn't really a Christian.
SHARPTON: A lot of Christians -- if I were to ask you about a religious group on the corner of Times Square tonight that is berating people, saying that you're born devils, and I would ask you, "Do you believe they are true believers?" You would have the right to say whether you believe that or not, is that not right?
COLMES: Of course. Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: And you had a right to put it in your context.
SHARPTON: ... that equivalent to calling women nappy-headed hos that have nothing to do with...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Because they weren't doing it seriously. It was a satire.
MCGUIRK: Exactly.
HANNITY: Let me bring it in, because that's why you wanted both Don and Bernard fired. And I want a serious answer to this question, because - - and this is what I was trying to get through in the debate that we had, Reverend.
You have used incendiary language often in your career. Hey, now, let me get my question out, and I'll give you a full answer, and then Bernard can respond. White interloper, white men were living in caves while we were building pyramids, these are Reverend Sharpton's words here. You called the African-American mayor of New York a whore, and you called him the n-word.
And my point is this: They will admit they were wrong. He's apologized on this show. Imus apologized to you. You have apologized for some of those, but not all of those. Why? Your career didn't end. Why would you fire them? Why would you be in a position of authority to judge them?
SHARPTON: First of all, first of all, I apologized for what I said when I said it. I also wrote, in 2003, way before this controversy, in everything else, a book called, "Al on America," wrote a whole chapter of why I think blacks must be stopped from using the term "ho" and "nigger," 2003, "Al on America," since you did so much research.
HANNITY: I did read your book.
SHARPTON: And I said in there, I have used the words, and they're wrong. I said that a...
HANNITY: What about the racial remarks?
SHARPTON: You said that I would be allowed to finish.
HANNITY: What about the racial remarks?
SHARPTON: May I finish?
HANNITY: White men living in caves?
SHARPTON: May I finish? I said that all of that was wrong and that we must move forward, that I said. Some of the stuff you categorized I never said. The point becomes...
HANNITY: No, these you said, but go ahead.
SHARPTON: I'm going to let you finish, because you promised to let me finish.
HANNITY: I'm going. Go ahead.
SHARPTON: So I already wrote that in a book and said that, and I was punished for that. When I ran for office and these things were raised...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: We're running out of time.
COLMES: We're going to take a quick break.
HANNITY: Let Bernard respond here.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I really don't think that that is...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: We've got a whole hour.
COLMES: We're going to give you a chance to finish up and Bernard a chance to respond when we get back, so everybody feels they've had a full say in this confrontation.
And we will take a quick break. And we will continue in just a moment. Don't go away. Things are just getting started, heating up in the Sharpton vs. McGuirk debate on "Hannity & Colmes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just hope to come to some type of understanding of what the remarks really entailed, his reasons why they were said. And we'd just like to express our great hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unless, in my case, a ho stands for achievement or something that you're getting done and you know that you're a wonderful person, than I'm not a ho. And at that, I'm a woman, and I'm someone's child. And, you know, it hurts a lot. It does hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity & Colmes." I'm Sean Hannity.
Round three tonight, Al Sharpton vs. Bernard McGuirk, right here, right now.
All right, Bernard, I want to get to this issue that I was asking the Reverend Sharpton, and he has a controversial past, a lot of statements. And for you, that is your biggest criticism of him?
MCGUIRK: Well, it's the hypocrisy is what it is. Reverend Al referred to people back during the Crown Heights riot, the riots, as diamond merchants.
SHARPTON: That's a lie.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: Again, you said you were not going to go into all of that...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: That is unequivocal lie. No, just throw something out there, and let's forget it.
MCGUIRK: ... the riots led to a person's death...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: ... white interlopers at Freddy's fashion market led to seven deaths.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: You are saying that I am responsible for...
MCGUIRK: No, no, no, I didn't say that.
SHARPTON: Yes, you did. Yes, you did.
MCGUIRK: No, you participated...
SHARPTON: I challenge you to unequivocally say that actions I had led to anybody's death.
HANNITY: You wanted to speak. Let him finish.
SHARPTON: No, no, no, no. I'm not going to let him sit here and cross a legal line...
MCGUIRK: I will not cross that line and say that what you say...
SHARPTON: Well, then don't say it then.
MCGUIRK: But you participated in those protests.
SHARPTON: I participated in many protests.
MCGUIRK: And some people perceive that some of those words...
SHARPTON: Oh, so you're not charging me?
MCGUIRK: Seven people died in the Freddy's fashion market...
SHARPTON: Several people died by a guy who was a major critic of mine who killed himself four months after the protest.
HANNITY: All right, let me bring -- hang on.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: That's the facts.
HANNITY: Let me bring this back...
SHARPTON: But, again, that's how y'all play, loose with facts, and try to go to the...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... rather than deal with the issues.
HANNITY: Reverend, let me ask this question for Bernie. You've had a lot of time tonight. Let me ask him this. When we talk about the specific statements, words, white interloper, white men in caves while we were building pyramids, and then you put it in context he asked for you and Don Imus to be fired, the words.
MCGUIRK: Exactly.
HANNITY: Look at Reverend Sharpton. Tell him what that means to you, and then...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: Are you here to help coach him along? He went out there and very clearly...
HANNITY: I asked a question. Let him answer.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... he very clearly tried to accuse me with inference of causing death. And when I called him on, he backed all the way up. Let's be fair tonight, Mr. Colmes.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: We have a whole hour here. And let's give Bernie a chance...
SHARPTON: And I challenge you to name the consequences.
COLMES: Let's give Bernard a chance to respond.
HANNITY: Let him answer.
MCGUIRK: Listen, in this case, I would say about the girls, these girls would have never have hurt -- these words didn't hurt these girls. And, again, the anger was legitimate. The apology was appropriate. But until you, Reverend Al, got involved, they probably never would have heard about it. They never would have been, quote, unquote, "scarred for life," had not you gotten involved for your own self-serving agenda so that you could make a name for yourself, so you could get back in the papers, because you're being overshadowed by Barack Obama. These girls never would have...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: And I guess I'm supposed to go for bait?
MCGUIRK: Did you meet with those girls?
SHARPTON: I guess I'm supposed to go for the bait and get in an argument with you?
MCGUIRK: Did you meet with those girls?
SHARPTON: I suppose I'm to argue with you about Barack Obama. The first thing is, if you have any recollection at all, I have been in the papers all year.
MCGUIRK: You didn't meet with the girls?
SHARPTON: May I finish? I'm going to address what you said. I was all over the papers right then about my ancestry to Strong Thurmond, had done this show the week before, before that about James Brown, before that about Sean Bell. So I wasn't looking to get in the papers.
And there was no guarantee, sir, when I held a press conference and said that I felt that the advertisers ought to pull back that it would get in the papers. So, I mean, we hold press conferences all the time. You don't know what's going to get in the papers.
I took a position, again, that the National Association of Black Journalists took, every other civil rights organization of national reputation, the Urban League, the NAACP, Rainbow-PUSH, and others.
COLMES: You led the charge, Reverend. You are identified as leading the charge.
SHARPTON: All of us were involved in that. And you can go through quotes on me and quotes on others.
MCGUIRK: Did the girls ask you to lead the charge?
SHARPTON: First of all, two things on that. I talked daily with Reverend Buster Soares, who convened a meeting of forgiveness, who said on this show...
HANNITY: We've got 30 seconds.
SHARPTON: ... who said on the debate I had with Mr. Imus, when he was on my show, he should be fired. He was the one that convened the forgiveness meeting. Is that not right?
MCGUIRK: He did convene it, yes.
SHARPTON: And he said that you guys should be fired. So it wasn't just my position. It was your own mediator that said that you should be fired. Is that not true? Did he say that?
MCGUIRK: You led the charge in the media. You terrorized these spineless, thumb-sucking executives...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: Now they have names, too?
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: That's what happened. That's exactly what happened.
HANNITY: All right, hang on.
SHARPTON: The mediator of the forgiveness session you talk about said should be fired.
HANNITY: All right, we've got to take a break.
SHARPTON: Did he say that?
HANNITY: We've got to take a break. We're going to come back. We have time for a commercial break. We'll come back in just a few minutes right here on "Hannity & Colmes." Thank you for being with us.
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGUIRK: It was all about Al Sharpton. I mean, it got to that stage where they pretty much acquiesced and surrendered and appeased Al Sharpton.
I think he terrorized, it seemed like -- you know, I viewed it from the media perspective from watching on TV and reading the paper, as you guys did -- it seems like he terrorized some broadcast executives, that they were sort of in a fetal position, under their desk, sucking their thumbs, on their BlackBerries trying to coordinate their response to them. And, you know, what are -- it just seemed that way. You know, I don't know exactly what went on, but it just seems that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLMES: Welcome back to "Hannity & Colmes."
We now continue with the great debate between Reverend Al Sharpton and Don Imus' former producer, Bernard McGuirk.
You used the word "terrorize" just in the last segment, Bernard, used it in that clip from your previous appearance on "Hannity & Colmes." Do you want to use the word "terrorist" in the context of Al Sharpton? What is your...
MCGUIRK: Again, you know, I'm not privy to the inside information, as I just said. It just appears that they were terrorized into making a bad decision by the Reverend Al. I mean, he obviously wasn't using bombs, but he was using threats of bull horns and busloads of angry people, and they made a bad decision, in my humble opinion.
It does not appear that way -- that's why public sentiment is what it is, by the way. And it's overwhelmingly, people are angry at what happened. People who didn't even like Imus, didn't even know Imus are against the decision that CBS made and NBC, for that matter.
So public sentiment is -- and it's all due to the perception here, because of the reverend, with all due respect, your record in the past. You have a very shady, questionable record in the past, and that you would lead such a charge, and have this impact, and the double standard, by the way, that's out there. Did you demand that Hillary Clinton give back that $800,000 to Timbaland? She was in his house. He uses words that are filthy and disgusting and degrading. She was in her house.
HANNITY: Let him finish, and then you go. Finish your point. Let him finish, and then you go.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: Have you demanded that she return that $800,000 to Timbaland that he raised in his house? She was in his house with the former president.
SHARPTON: May I now say something? I had a question on the table. There was an array of people, including the mediator that you keep talking about, the forgiveness meeting, that said you should be fired, is that not true? The mediator, Reverend Soares himself, said you all should be fired.
MCGUIRK: Perhaps.
SHARPTON: No, not perhaps. That's the record. He said it on this show. He said it to y'all.
MCGUIRK: Yes, but you, sir...
SHARPTON: No, because the reason that is important is he's trying to give the misperception it was just me. Even the people that forgave him and that set up the session said they should be fired.
MCGUIRK: No, the people that forgave him, the women's basketball team, did not demand that he was to be fired.
SHARPTON: Just a second. I talked to the coach. Any number of times people had the opportunity to come forward and say that they should never have been fired. No one has said that. The girls are not in a position to get into whether or not consumers go to advertisers.
They've been polls done, Sean. Let's be fair. There is no poll that I've seen that said that, "We support Imus on this."
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Why didn't the team ask that he be fired? Vivian Stringer did not ask for it. The team didn't ask for it.
SHARPTON: First of all, first of all, what they said is that we're not going to get into it. If you were to listen to him, he's trying to act like they wouldn't say it.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: The person that they chose, the pastor of the coach, that they chose to be the mediator said they should be fired.
MCGUIRK: Reverend Al, it was your appearances on all the liberal media shows. They treated you like Nelson Mandela.
SHARPTON: I came on this show.
HANNITY: Hang on, Reverend.
MCGUIRK: They treated you like some latter-day Nelson Mandela. They kissed your feet. They didn't ask you about your past. And you were the guy who...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: You were in the public eye. You led the charge. And it's you. And the perception is that you're nobody to be leading such a charge with your very, very shamed past.
SHARPTON: You know something, Mr. McGuirk? Let me tell you the reason why that falls on a lot of deaf ears with people. One, y'all used to say that about Nelson Mandela in the media, in right-wing media.
MCGUIRK: What do you mean y'all? Who's y'all?
SHARPTON: Just as I said, y'all in the right-wing media.
MCGUIRK: I'm not in the right-wing media.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: Well, fine. Then, with those that made that charged, they used to call Nelson Mandela a terrorist. That was the official position. They used to call Dr. King -- I mean, I can't think of anyone...
MCGUIRK: That's outrageous. You're equating us with the apartheid government. That's ridiculous.
SHARPTON: No, you equated it. You equated me, saying they were kissing my feet like some...
MCGUIRK: Absolutely. They were so far up your...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: You know what? You're both being heard. Let me see if I can -- I think this is where this controversy stays. And I guess this is what he's saying. Your controversial remarks, Reverend, that we have now gone over, Don Imus made controversial -- let me finish the question. Don Imus made controversial remarks. Your career goes on. He's out of work. Imus is out of work.
Is that fair, considering your career never got stopped?
SHARPTON: First of all, first of all, my past, anyone else's past, according to you, is "controversial." My past is 30 years of fighting for many causes with many people.
HANNITY: White interlopers?
SHARPTON: OK, I'll tell you what. I'll just remain silent.
HANNITY: No, I'm asking. I'm asking.
SHARPTON: No, you're not asking. You won't let anyone answer but y'all. He clearly can't plead his own case, so you have to...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... and say what he's saying. I mean, so...
HANNITY: No. I'm asking you.
SHARPTON: If you were in the ring the other night, they'd have threw the fight out. And the judges would have said, because now you've got the trainer throwing the...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: Why don't you tell him...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: This is no surprise. You admit it.
SHARPTON: You can sit with any public figure and act like it's about their past. You know good and well that, for 30 years, I've led many of the civil rights...
HANNITY: Don Imus raises money for charity.
SHARPTON: OK, all right.
MCGUIRK: And wounded veterans, single-handedly shamed Congress into raising the benefit for wounded veterans.
SHARPTON: Don Imus -- and Don Imus violated...
MCGUIRK: Kids with sickle-cell anemia.
SHARPTON: ... the job that he...
MCGUIRK: He made one small mistake. He ran a red light, inadvertently hurt some people, and got the death sentence.
COLMES: All right. We're going to take a break. When we get back, I do want to talk about, what if Imus comes back?
SHARPTON: No, we're going to let me finish, or I won't have anything else to stay. I want to try to finish one point tonight.
COLMES: We have to pay the enormous salaries of some of the hosts here. So we'll be...
SHARPTON: Oh, you all get salaries. And I get nothing but attacked, but I'm self-serving. You are the guys getting paid here. I want you to show me where I gain from any of this.
COLMES: You get paid for your radio show, right?
SHARPTON: Who?
COLMES: Your radio show, do you get paid?
SHARPTON: Are you on my radio show?
COLMES: Invite us.
HANNITY: I've been on.
SHARPTON: I don't have name-calling on my show. I try to give information on my show.
COLMES: We'll be right back, round five...
SHARPTON: Listen to Al Sharpton for substance.
COLMES: ... in just three minutes, coming right back here on "Hannity & Colmes."
HANNITY: Round five begins right now, with the Reverend Sharpton versus Bernard McGuirk, who's back here with us.
All right, you've lost your job.
MCGUIRK: I have, yes. And inexplicably, but go ahead. I mean, the apology should have been sufficient, but go ahead.
HANNITY: In terms of the Rutgers women's basketball team.
MCGUIRK: In terms of what I said, absolutely.
HANNITY: Yes. What are you feeling now towards all of this? And where do you want to go from here, in terms of your career? Reverend Sharpton has said that -- go ahead.
MCGUIRK: Again, it's the slippery slope. I mean, we're getting reports that some other people have been fired.
HANNITY: I just found -- JV and Elvis have been fired, as of about two hours ago, and another group in New York.
MCGUIRK: And it all seems to have started with...
SHARPTON: What were they fired for?
HANNITY: They were fired on a bit that they did about a computer- enhanced voice calling in to a -- I think it was a Chinese restaurant, was that...
COLMES: Yes.
HANNITY: And we played it on the air, but anyway...
MCGUIRK: In this case, I mean, the "Imus in the Morning" program brought pleasure into people's lives, for whatever reason, for three decades, 20 hours a week on the air, a body of philanthropic work that was incredible. And for the Reverend Al to steal that laughter and that pleasure from people in the mornings, what makes them very angry -- and now it seems that laughter in the country is going to dissipate. People are going to be afraid to make edgy jokes, and people can't make a mistake and apologize without, again, losing their livelihood and getting the death sentence.
HANNITY: Let me stay on this point. This is advancing it here. Context and texture, I mean, the things -- you may not like the humor. They admit they made a mistake in this case, but this show -- let me finish the question -- this show was about pushing the envelope and making fun of everybody, themselves included. Does that not put any context or texture into what they do on a daily basis for you?
SHARPTON: Let me ask you a question. If you felt what you were doing was funny and right, then why did you apologize?
HANNITY: But in this case...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I just thought I would ask a question.
MCGUIRK: Because it was over the line. Again, it was a mistake. It was over the line. Why did we apologize?
SHARPTON: So then why are you trying to justify it tonight?
MCGUIRK: Because the punishment was not commensurate with the crime.
SHARPTON: But you seem to want to be justifying that it's all right to do that.
MCGUIRK: A man like you, that led the charge to get us fired, is the...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I have led many charges down through the years, and I think...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: ... Tawana Brawley, the Duke lacrosse case, have you apologized to those people?
SHARPTON: I was not involved in the Duke lacrosse case, nor was I involved in the Yankee Doodle...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: You spoke out about that.
SHARPTON: Now I led the charge? I might have been on this show and somebody had asked me about it.
HANNITY: You admit you have said things -- when you called the mayor of New York the n-word and a whore, you admit you overstepped the line. And you apologized.
SHARPTON: And the mayor and I fought for years because of it. What he is saying is that, "We want to apologize, and we want to decide what the penalty is."
MCGUIRK: No, no, no, but why should you decide what the penalty is?
SHARPTON: I didn't decide your penalty. I wanted...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I said what I felt was appropriate. And, unfortunately, I guess for you, your advertisers agreed. And I think they agreed, not because I said it, because a lot of employees that...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Hold on. Let's move it forward for a second.
SHARPTON: May I finish?
COLMES: Reverend Al, I want to move this...
SHARPTON: Other important -- people like Al Roker, not activists, said it was disgusting, and I don't want to work in a place that supports this. Is Al Roker one of these guys hiding under a desk with a BlackBerry?
MCGUIRK: Al Roker is one voice. I would imagine that a majority of people...
SHARPTON: And he was one of the voices.
MCGUIRK: ... the majority of people in the company, just like public sentiment countrywide...
SHARPTON: I don't know where you gauged public sentiment.
MCGUIRK: Just look at all the polls, look at the responses I've gotten.
SHARPTON: What polls?
MCGUIRK: Any poll. There were pools out there. Google it. I'm not going to do the research for you. Look at the comments on the blogs.
COLMES: A lot of people would like to see Imus back on the radio. A lot of people say CBS should take them back. If CBS were to decide -- let me just ask you this question -- if CBS were to decide, "You know what? We feel the punishment didn't fit the crime. We would like to have Imus back."
SHARPTON: You're asking two different questions.
COLMES: I didn't even come to the question mark yet.
SHARPTON: You said, if they said that we don't think the punishment fit the crime, that's one question. That's not the same question, as if they brought them back.
COLMES: Bottom line.
SHARPTON: No, there's not a bottom line. You cannot ask two questions and get one answer. If they said the punishment don't fit the crime, I would very vociferously disagree with that. If they said they wanted to re-hire them under different circumstances and see, I would watch and see what happened.
COLMES: But if they were...
SHARPTON: I've said the position of National Action Network and I is the same as it was when Bob Grant was fired, and we were all involved in that. When Bob Grant was rehired by another station, we monitored and never said anything else, because he never made those kind of outrageous statements.
COLMES: But if they were to -- if they were to rehire him, it might be because they feel the punishment didn't fit the crime, and they'd reconsidered it.
SHARPTON: Then I would disagree with that.
COLMES: Would you then campaign to get them taken off the air again?
SHARPTON: I would disagree with CBS saying that. How we would take a campaign on that, I don't know. I don't know who -- the campaign might be CBS. If they said that they don't feel, especially as strongly as they worded why they took that -- I mean, they didn't just fire him. They stated how this was a pattern, how they had committed and have not done this before. What we're not asking here is, why did you guys promise before to stop doing this, and you kept doing it?
MCGUIRK: Doing what? What did we do before? You can't cite any examples of being over the line.
SHARPTON: You sat with Clarence Page -- let me give you an example. You sat with Clarence Page and Mr. Imus together and committed that he would stop racial jokes. That did not happen?
MCGUIRK: Ethnic jokes.
SHARPTON: All right, ethnic jokes. Did he say that though? Did Mr. Imus say that?
MCGUIRK: If you can't joke about every race...
SHARPTON: Did Mr. Imus say that?
MCGUIRK: If you're not going to joke about a single race because you're afraid, that in itself is patronizing in racism. And, by the way...
SHARPTON: Did Mr. Imus make that commitment with Clarence Page?
MCGUIRK: He made some sort of pledge, but you can't cite anything that was over the line that he said before Clarence Page asked him for that commitment.
SHARPTON: Well, then why did he make the statement with Clarence Page then?
MCGUIRK: The question is, though, Reverend Al...
SHARPTON: Was he being patronizing in racism?
MCGUIRK: You will see what will happen. And the question is that people are wondering, who elected you the P.C. police chief? Who elected you to anything?
SHARPTON: Fine, I'm not the P.C. police.
MCGUIRK: Who elected you the righter of wrongs in this case?
SHARPTON: I'm whatever you want to be.
MCGUIRK: Nobody did.
SHARPTON: Fine, whatever you want me to be, I'll tell you I'm going to be that. But now answer the question: Why did you make a pledge that you didn't keep?
HANNITY: We've got to take a break.
MCGUIRK: We made a mistake. It's been apologized for, and the anger was legitimate, and we moved on.
SHARPTON: And you had apologized before and said you weren't going to do it.
MCGUIRK: We didn't apologize for anything back then.
HANNITY: But you made mistakes; I've made mistakes; he's made mistakes.
SHARPTON: And we all paid for them.
HANNITY: No one got -- they're the only ones that got fired.
SHARPTON: They got fired, and they're going to have another job.
HANNITY: You didn't get fired.
SHARPTON: I lost a lot of dealings with the city of New York, with the mayor. I lost a lot of votes. And we had to come back and convince people we were moving on.
HANNITY: All right, we've got to take a break. Time now for another break. And the last and final words from Reverend Sharpton and Bernard McGuirk, coming up next, straight ahead.
COLMES: All right, the final round between Al Sharpton and Bernard McGuirk.
You know, one would hope some good could come of this, of all this that's gone on here. And the sad part for me is, whether or not you're an Imus fan, the sad part for me is that Don Imus does not have an on-air platform now to conduct what could be a great national conversation on race, about the very questions that were raised by this whole controversy, the fact that he was pulled off the air before the public even had a chance to decide, the marketplace didn't decide. They were decided for them, because of sponsor objections, and ultimately corporate pulling the plug.
Wouldn't it have been much better if Don Imus was somehow at the center of this debate right now, able to conduct the kind of conversation America could be having as a result of this controversy?
SHARPTON: Absolutely. I think the fact that Don Imus had, by his own admission, said that he was not going to do this again, he did it. He sat with Clarence Page.
COLMES: He made a mistake. He apologized for the mistake.
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: He had never done it before.
SHARPTON: Well, I don't know what -- what, was he then apologizing in advance because he knew -- he apologized. He obviously had done it before. There would have been no reason for him to apologize...
(CROSSTALK)
MCGUIRK: He didn't apologize to Clarence Page.
SHARPTON: He apologized, and he said he wasn't going to do it again. That is what the guys you said "quivering under the desk with the BlackBerries" that now you're saying should hire you. I don't know why somebody would hire you if that's your view of them, but that's what you call them. That's what they wrote in their statement, that this was the pattern.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: And I think that anyone that showed that pattern on that job should expect, sooner or later, somebody...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: He came on your show. Imus was contrite. He asked forgiveness.
MCGUIRK: There was no pattern.
COLMES: He came on the show and said -- he never had a chance then to go back on and continue to discuss this.
SHARPTON: Forgiveness has nothing to do with penalty. If you abuse a job, you can forgive somebody and say you lose the job. Moses was forgiven. He didn't get to the Promise Land. There is penalty.
HANNITY: What do you want Al Sharpton to take away from this debate?
MCGUIRK: First of all, Mr. Imus, apparently, is a fall guy for a gangsta rap culture. I mean, it started from the top. And the words that were used were not originated on the "Imus in the Morning" program. They were originated in the hip-hop culture, in the gangsta rap world. And we used those words, again, inadvertently hurt some girls, and apologized.
SHARPTON: So Imus used to listen to...
COLMES: Let Bernard finish.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Let Bernie finish his statement, Reverend.
MCGUIRK: And, by the way, you still haven't answered the question whether or not Hillary Clinton should give back that $800,000 that she raised when she was in Timbaland's house...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... if I was going to tell Ms. Clinton, I would tell every politician, including George Bush, to not deal with rappers, since all of them have...
HANNITY: Should she give back the money?
SHARPTON: I have not taken a position on any politicians...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... including President Bush, who...
MCGUIRK: With all due respect...
SHARPTON: In all due respect, let me answer the question...
MCGUIRK: ... it smells of hypocrisy, double standard. Double standard.
SHARPTON: Why? If I was saying that Bush should turn back what he did with rappers and not Hillary...
HANNITY: Timbaland used the n-word 24 times in one song.
SHARPTON: Maybe all they should do is an apology, according to you. To me, people ought to pay a price. So if I called on politicians to do it, I would call on all of them to do it, including the president.
MCGUIRK: You see what I mean? That's a double standard that smells of hypocrisy.
SHARPTON: How is it a double standard? It's your standard. I didn't call on politicians. You did.
HANNITY: The question he's asking is, is 24 times the n-word in one song...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: And my position...
HANNITY: ... and she took $800,000 grand from them.
SHARPTON: You're running out of time. My position is that the record companies that put out the song with the 24 words ought to stop it. Don't scapegoat somebody at a fundraiser.
HANNITY: Well, you were so outraged...
SHARPTON: And I marched on the record companies, and you didn't show up for the march. And the last time I was here, you said, "I'll be there," and you weren't there. You weren't there, Mr. Hannity.
HANNITY: Here's what I have to say, I guess, in closing here. I think you have a right to be outraged over what was said. You were right to apologize. Imus was right to apologize here.
I think the only thing that was, I think, the mistake here, you were right in the times you were wrong in your life, Reverend, when you apologized. But I think we've got to get to the point where apologies are accepted. I think you're a Christian. You're a reverend. I think you had an opportunity to work with him, and I think that was missed here.
SHARPTON: I think that there must not be amnesty. There must be -- people pay for their deeds. And I think it was appropriate that y'all paid.
COLMES: We've got to run. We thank you both for being here.
HANNITY: Appreciate you being here.
COLMES: We appreciate that both of you were willing to come and at least talk about it on this forum. We'll be right back. Sean and I will talk about what just happened. We'll wrap it up. Don't go away. More to come on "Hannity & Colmes."
HANNITY: As we continue on "Hannity & Colmes," you know, one of the things that I'm most concerned about in all of this debate -- and I think everyone had a right to be outraged at what he said. I think Imus did apologize, which was proper.
COLMES: Yes.
HANNITY: I don't think he should have been fired. We actually agree on that. I just found out prior to coming on air, the debate we followed on "Hannity & Colmes" about JV and Elvis, two other radio guys, they got fired about two hours ago.
COLMES: And hanging in the balance right now is Opie and Anthony, with something terrible...
HANNITY: There's another one.
COLMES: ... that they said on not terrestrial, but satellite radio, and you've got to wonder what's going to happen there.
HANNITY: About Condi Rice.
COLMES: Even though they didn't say it on CBS, given what CBS has done with Imus and JV and Elvis, will they now do that to Opie and Anthony?
HANNITY: Alan, my biggest concern -- we have a McCain-Feingold bill that won't let people organize and have campaign ads against candidates 60 days before an election, 30 days in a primary. Here's the point: We've got a fairness doctrine being debated. I think the biggest issue that has got to come out of this, I think apologies should be accepted. And I also think everybody out there -- we don't ever want you to tune out of this show, by the way -- we have options. We have choices. We can change the dial, and we don't have to listen to shows...
COLMES: That's true. That has nothing to do, by the way, with McCain-Feingold or the fairness doctrine.
HANNITY: It does, actually. It's a chilling free speech moment.
COLMES: It really doesn't. What it has to do with, interest groups deciding, "I don't like you or they don't like me"...
HANNITY: What?
COLMES: Yes, how can they not like me? You're right. Or try to get somebody off the air for some perceived offense.
HANNITY: That's what I agree with.
COLMES: That's what the problem is here.
HANNITY: All right, well, we're going to have, I'm sure, more of this. We'll have some more fallout.
