Furthering the media’s love affair with Hillary Clinton, Friday’s CBS "Early Show" featured a segment on her recent speech at Saddleback Church in Southern California and how Evangelical Christians may be moving to the left in 2008. As co-host Harry Smith wondered at the top of the show, "Hillary Clinton addresses an Evangelical megachurch in California. Is it really possible that the Christian Right could be convinced to turn left?" Later, co-host Julie Chen further teased:
Also, the Evangelical vote in the 2008 presidential race --is it up for grabs? Hillary Clinton believes the Republicans no longer have a lock on it...We'll ask Pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback if it's really possible that the Evangelical Right, President Bush's key voting block, could be moving to the left.
The segment began with a report by CBS Correspondent Bill Whitaker, who described the uphill battle for Democrats to win such votes:
To detractors and supporters alike, Democrat Hillary Clinton walking into an Orange County Evangelical bastion was like Daniel entering the lion's den...Four years ago, a Democratic presidential candidate coming to speak at an Evangelical megachurch would have been unthinkable, even politically futile.
Of course, the courageous Hillary Clinton and the other Democratic candidates have still refused to debate in the "lion’s den," of Fox News.
The key issue on which Clinton spoke at the California church was how she would address AIDS as president. As Whitaker described it, "...her message of compassion for AIDS victims was greeted with applause."
Whitaker followed that positive assessment of Clinton’s appearance with the observation that, "White Evangelical voters make up about a quarter of the electorate, and in 2004, fully 78% of them voted Republican." However, Whitaker soon described the possibility of that trend reversing in 2008:
But the GOP's grip on this crucial block might be loosening...Pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church, where Clinton spoke, says fighting AIDS and poverty aren't Democratic issues, they're crucial Christian issues too...Sensing that opening, Democrats are reaching out.
This gave the impression that some how Democrats like Clinton are more committed to fighting AIDS than Republicans, but as co-host Chris Raggie explained in a news brief right before the segment: "And the White House is marking World Aids Day, a huge red ribbon now hangs on the mansion's north portico. President Bush today plans to visit a church in Maryland that helps African children orphaned by AIDS." So why would fighting AIDS be an "opening" for Democrats among the religious right?
In a further effort to give credence to the idea of the Christian Right making a left turn, Whitaker’s report featured an observation by Marvin Olasky, Editor-in-Chief of "World" Magazine, that, "Evangelicals have not been solely owned company within the Republican empire, they're in play." Interestingly, Whitaker certainly never suggested that the black community was leaving the Democratic "empire" anytime soon when he reported that African-American military enlistments were down because of dislike for President Bush’s policies.
In the second half of the segment, Harry Smith interviewed the Pastor of the Saddlebrook Church where Clinton spoke, and author of "The Purpose-Driven Life," Rick Warren: "You know, there are people within the Evangelical movement who heard about Hillary Clinton speaking at Saddleback today who said this is a huge error and that just by inviting her you send the wrong message." In response, Warren compared himself to a persecuted Jesus and his critics to the hypocritical Pharisees:
Yeah. You know what? The greatest criticism Jesus got, he got not from political people or from secular leaders. He got it from religious people. And it's amazing to me that sometimes the people who understand grace are the least gracious people on the planet.
A response from some of those other Evangelical leaders was strangely absent from the segment. In fact, the "Early Show" has history of talking to more watered-down Christian leaders, like when co-host Hannah Storm discussed the "Christianity-Lite" of Pastor Joel Osteen in October.
Smith followed up by asking Warren: "Do you think the world has Evangelicals wrong in terms of thinking of Evangelicals as a voting group and voting as a block?" Warren responded:
They're not a political force. They're a religious force, and they never have been in the corner of just the Religious Right or the Religious Left or anywhere else. And every time you try to define us by political terms, you totally miss the point. It's not about politics, it's about something much bigger than that.
Yes, that’s why Warren has invited political candidates into his church, to show how non-political it is.
Here is the full transcript of the segment:
7:00AM TEASER:
HARRY SMITH: "Hillary Clinton addresses an Evangelical megachurch in California. Is it really possible that the Christian Right could be convinced to turn left?"
7:01AM:
JULIE CHEN: "Also, the Evangelical vote in the 2008 presidential race --is it up for grabs? Hillary Clinton believes the Republicans no longer have a lock on it. As we told you, she addressed Southern California's Saddleback megachurch yesterday. We'll ask Pastor Rick Warren of Saddlebrook if it's really possible that the Evangelical Right, President Bush's key voting block, could be moving to the left."
7:08AM SEGMENT:
HARRY SMITH: "In the 2004 election, George Bush credited Evangelical Christian voters with delivering him the presidency. But could the conservative Christian Right be moving a bit to the left? CBS News Correspondent Bill Whitaker reports from Southern California.
BILL WHITAKER: To detractors and supporters alike, Democrat Hillary Clinton walking into an Orange County Evangelical bastion was like Daniel entering the lion's den. But her message of compassion for AIDS victims was greeted with applause.
HILLARY CLINTON: I will ask for $50 billion over five years to combat HIV/AIDS.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: She's won me over.
WHITAKER: Four years ago, a Democratic presidential candidate coming to speak at an Evangelical megachurch would have been unthinkable, even politically futile. White Evangelical voters make up about a quarter of the electorate, and in 2004, fully 78% of them voted Republican.
MARVIN OLASKY (EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, WORLD MAGAZINE): Without Evangelical votes in the 2000 and 2004 elections, George W. Bush would not have become president.
WHITAKER: But the GOP's grip on this crucial block might be loosening.
RICK WARREN: One of the biggest problems in the world --
WHITAKER: Pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church, where Clinton spoke, says fighting AIDS and poverty aren't Democratic issues, they're crucial Christian issues too.
OLASKY: Evangelicals have not been solely owned company within the Republican empire, they're in play.
WHITAKER: Sensing that opening, Democrats are reaching out.
MATT DORF (DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE): Faith voters talking to faith voters in a way that we believe our outreach will pay off in this election and get us more votes.
WHITAKER: But no one expects Democrats to get a huge chunk of the Evangelical vote. That would take a miracle. Bill Whitaker, CBS News, Lake Forest, California.
SMITH: Earlier, I spoke with Pastor Rick Warren, who is also the author of the best-selling book The Purpose-Driven Life. He said his congregation is open to all kinds of views, including the views of Senator Hillary Clinton.
RICK WARREN: She was received real well. We actually put the call out to invite any of the presidential candidates to come and be here and present what they -- we had one question: What would you do with the AIDS pandemic if you were elected president?
SMITH: You know, there are people within the Evangelical movement who heard about Hillary Clinton speaking at Saddleback today who said this is a huge error and that just by inviting her you send the wrong message.
WARREN: Yeah. You know what? The greatest criticism Jesus got, he got not from political people or from secular leaders. He got it from religious people. And it's amazing to me that sometimes the people who understand grace are the least gracious people on the planet. And so, you know, we don't do things for cheers or jeers, for what I call strokes or pokes. We do it because we think it's the right thing to do. And we know that we need to be speaking up about this issue. You know, I have to admit the Church was late to the table on this AIDS issue. And we had to repent on it. We just -- I just personally had to repent on it. I didn't get it for years. But once I understood, I said, okay, we're in, and we're in for the duration. This is not flavor of the month. This is not, you know, fad of the week for us. We're in it for long term because it's part of our mission, we believe.
SMITH: Do you think the world has Evangelicals wrong in terms of thinking of Evangelicals as a voting group and voting as a block?
WARREN: Yeah. You nailed it on the head, Harry. There was an article, a news -- New York Times magazine article a few weeks ago saying the End Times for Evangelicals. Well, the problem was it was all about Evangelicals being a political force. They're not a political force. They're a religious force, and they never have been in the corner of just the Religious Right or the Religious Left or anywhere else. And every time you try to define us by political terms, you totally miss the point. It's not about politics, it's about something much bigger than that.
SMITH: Well, let me get down to the money, then. What do you understand now about it that you didn't understand for all those other years?
WARREN: Well, I didn't understand -- I was raised in a tradition where we cared about the soul and undervalued the importance of the body. Jesus cared about the spiritual and the physical. He healed them physically, and he healed them spiritually. And I was raised in a tradition where we cared a lot about, you know, our spiritual care, but didn't put so much emphasis on health and on that. But Jesus, the Bible says he went into every village preaching, teaching, and healing. That meant one-third of his ministry was health care. And it's not by accident that the first hospital and usually the first school in every country of the world was started by Christian missionaries because Christianity is a teaching and healing faith.
SMITH: That's Rick Warren, Pastor of the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California.
—Kyle Drennen is a news analyst at the Media Research Center.
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Comments Policy
Would Christ have treated
November 30, 2007 - 13:30 ET by buddycWould Christ have treated the women of Bill's life the way Hillary did? Would Christ have treated his enemies the way Hillary does?
When Hillary repents and asks forgiveness of those she has villified then I might think she has a serious chance of receiving support from a credible religion.
When hell freezes over...or
November 30, 2007 - 13:41 ET by vrwc13Religious Right Turns Left for Hillary....
When hell freezes over...or she "turns" right to:
hmm...well maybe I was right when I said when hell freezes over...
v
I live near Lake Forest.
November 30, 2007 - 13:39 ET by fitzfongI live near Lake Forest. This clown Rick Warren is simply the stock minister tool of the left used whenever the media wants to shame Conservatives Christians. Warren is in deep with the global warming sheep and he had Obama there even before he had slick bubba's wife of convenience. I would suggest that the lion's share of people have been exposed to this tired media parlour trick enough to see through this juvenile "Early Show" game.
The wolves know who they
November 30, 2007 - 14:12 ET by vrwc13The wolves know who they are...it's the goats who think they are sheep who have the problem.
v
Goats perhaps? Interesting poll on the event...
AMEN!!!
November 30, 2007 - 15:17 ET by LilyPearlAMEN!!!!
Dont know Rick Warren but I
November 30, 2007 - 13:54 ET by sunandsteelDont know Rick Warren but I wonder how ol' Ricky would justify the pro choice stance of some of these democrats he seems to support. Or perhaps, dems that want to keep taking away Christians' freedom of religion and speech. Or any number of positions that dont line up with the Bible.
What doesn’t kill you, only makes you pissed off. -Children of Bodom
Or perhaps, dems that want
November 30, 2007 - 16:11 ET by FishFace222Or perhaps, dems that want to keep taking away Christians' freedom of religion and speech.
Boy how right you are on that. Silence Christians but any other religion should be granted not only freedom of speach but any platform they want to shout on. Even athiests are listening to the Islamic community but Christianity, he** no.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200707170006
The last I checked, the Constitution granted Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
The last I checked, the
November 30, 2007 - 16:21 ET by BeowulfThe last I checked, the Constitution granted Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
Very well said. Maybe not original, but SPOT-ON!
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
Rick Warren is just another
November 30, 2007 - 18:12 ET by misterbee241Rick Warren is just another feel-good preacher. He is a disciple of Robert Schuller who is the big name in the self-esteem "I'm ok, you're ok" movement in the churches nowdays.
I have no problem with churches helping the sick, after all that's what Jesus did. But I resent people like Warren saying that one third of Jesus' ministry was about healing the physical body. Jesus healed people to glorify God and to show the power of God. Jesus was more concerned about the spiritual man than the physical man because the spiritual man lives forever. Nowhere in the Great Commission did Jesus say "go forth and heal the sick" He said "go forth and make disciples." Churches like Warren's have lost sight of their true commision from Christ. It's all about being PC now days.
And while I MAY not support a Republican next year, I most certainly WILL NOT support Hillary. Hell certainly will freeze over first.
A pox on Warren.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
Rick Warren
November 30, 2007 - 17:06 ET by candanceAs if Rick Warren speaks for the religious right. He's to the left of Joel Osteen.
Funny how they hate pastors until they're needed to gush over Democrats - and then they find THE most liberal pastor in America.
Go ask James Dobson, John MacArthur, Chris Tomlin, Ann Coulter, Joyce Meyer, and Franklin Graham. Ask those people what the religious right thinks of Hillary.
card holding member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
Another case of the media
November 30, 2007 - 13:48 ET by MrSnugglesAnother case of the media reporting the news as they want it to be. its almost an attempt at self-fulfilling news.
It's more than that.
November 30, 2007 - 14:48 ET by mattmIt's what I've called before "Push-Reporting" - as in push-polling.
They not only report what they want to be, they do it in hopes of influencing people into believing that's what is.
Unfortunately, it's been
November 30, 2007 - 16:25 ET by BeowulfUnfortunately, it's been working for them the last few years. I say this "push-reporting" was the MAJOR factor in the Dems taking over congress last year.
Fortunately, people are catching on, partly because BS can only be shovelled for just so long before it starts to stink, and partly because the LSM has gotten carried away and gone so far over the top with this tactic that even the densest moron is slowly realizing they're being manipulated.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
It's what I've called
November 30, 2007 - 17:15 ET by motherbeltIt's what I've called before "Push-Reporting" - as in push-polling.
Good phrase, matt!
That's what goes on when the media say "The questions aren't going away." (We'll see to that!)
Moonbats Wishful Thinking
November 30, 2007 - 13:53 ET by NoMoreClintons"Is it really possible that the Christian Right could be convinced to turn left?"
Sure, and Ann Coulter will be leading the charge . . . NOT.
Clueless media
November 30, 2007 - 13:56 ET by greenfairieThe left has been trying to show it has religion for years while at the same time holding on to the atheist/agnostic/secularist crowd. Aside from black churchgoers, who remain mostly Democratic voters for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, it's been an uphill battle. The libs also know that evangelicals are excellent at organizing and getting voters to turn out. So they fish out the Evangelical Lite seeker churches and have them put on a dog and pony show for the media, hoping to influence more apolitical evangelicals that it's okay with Jesus if you vote for Hillary.
The media though never understands why the majority of evangelicals (or majority of churchgoers across the board) have been voting Republican in recent years. For one thing, many of these folks are not beholden to government assistance nor do most of them believe government is there to solve your problems, make the playing field level, etc.. So they are able then to focus on the values each party supports. Republicans emphasize personal responsibility, individual liberty, and respect for tradition. The Democrats play on racial and class envy, promote big and intrusive government, and flush tradition down the toilet in the name of buzzwords like multiculturalism, sensitivity, diversity, and tolerance. Who do you think the majority of Christians who take their faith seriously 24/7 are going to vote for?
Reminds me of something I
November 30, 2007 - 14:19 ET by sunandsteelReminds me of something I heard from the youth pastor at our church after reading one of Warrens books, and it applies to the dem mentality as well. He said something to the effect of "To reach more people you have to be everything to everyone", basically just act like the people you are around. My response was that it was doomed to fail because everyone will know you are fake, just be one thing to everyone and stick to it. Much more truth that way.
What doesn’t kill you, only makes you pissed off. -Children of Bodom
That's called being "in"
November 30, 2007 - 18:17 ET by misterbee241That's called being "of" the world rather than being "in" the world as scripture calls us to be. Lots of pastors following Warren's lead are bringing the world into the church. For me the church is a sanctuary from the world.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
EVANGELICAL Christians?!!!!
November 30, 2007 - 14:14 ET by jonathanandersonCOPPED-OUT Christians ... SALTLESS Christians ... if they ever WERE Christians.
Rick Warren is one of the top ten antichrists on the planet ... how "extraordinary" is it that he would be yoked to THE top antichrist?!
2 Corinthians 6:14-17
(14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers [apistos - those who have deceived themselves with a lie]! For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?
(15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel [apistos]?
(16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people [Ezra 43:9]."
(17) "Wherefore come out from among them, AND BE YE SEPERATE!", saith the Lord, "and attach not yourselves to those who are unclean; and I will receive you."
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time [eschatos hora - the lowest, or trying, hour ... the hour of adversity] : and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY ANTICHRISTS; whereby we know that it is the last time [eschatos hora - the lowest, or trying, hour ... the hour of adversity].
To Ricky, Joel Osteen, Paula
November 30, 2007 - 14:25 ET by sunandsteelTo Ricky, Joel Osteen, Paula White, and the rest of em: Quit following the world to make a buck. Stop giving up principles and start expecting these politicians to do what we want them to.
What doesn’t kill you, only makes you pissed off. -Children of Bodom
Jonathon
November 30, 2007 - 14:39 ET by ricklailWould you call it the church of the Laedocians from the Revelation? I am rich and need nothing. Christ having to beat on the door to get into his own church. Lukewarm Christians?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
Ricklail - there is no
November 30, 2007 - 18:20 ET by misterbee241Ricklail - there is no doubt in my mind that a large majority of the churches today are Laodicean churches. They are neither hot nor cold and left their first love. And we know what Christ said He would do with them. Lukewarm Christians, yes. On fire for Christ, no.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
finally someone who can
November 30, 2007 - 17:36 ET by Keithread the Bible and understand WHAT HE READS! AMEN. As a Discerner of Spirits I have an extraordinary observation about Rick Warren, it can be perceived as ENTIRELY subjective if you don't have said Spirit, which is why I hesitate. In fact I won't go that far, I'll just ask a question. Has anybody noticed something funny AROUND Rick Warrens EYES? A certain puffy darkness above and below the eyelids? A look you've seen before in other men passing themselves off as religious but in the mean while being "Foley-esque"? Anyone notice anything "effeminate" around his gestures? Just spitballin' here.
From your previous postings
November 30, 2007 - 17:57 ET by Dan The Man 2From your previous postings I would say you like your spirits a whole lot “As a Discerner of Spirits”, those like Jack Daniels. I don’t fault Rick Warren for reaching out and trying to be all things to all people but it seems like he is compromising the principles Jesus taught. Jesus told the woman who was about to be stoned and life he saved, “Go and sin no more”. So Warren should have said to any politician in his church the same. Abortion is a sin and promoting such is a sin. There are many more we could cover.
Are you saying by this “Anyone notice anything "effeminate" around his gestures” and intimating he is homosexual you want to bang him?
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
So you're hating on my
December 1, 2007 - 02:36 ET by KeithSo you're hating on my "previous posts" because I want conservatives to BE conservatives and Christians to actually read the book and do accordingly? My "previous" posts point out how most of you are baptized incorrectly according to the Bible some of you claim to worship. This is improper? Especially when you are rightfully condemning the false teachings of Rick Warren? When I point our your stunning lack of clarity concerning Jesus' mission, purpose and result, you feel threatened and attack me personally. Now, I'm a "drunk" because you can't read the bible! You are not saved unless you are saved the way the Apostles say you should be. Why this seems like advanced math to you people is frankly, beyond me. I asked if anyone saw anything about his eyes because there are things that attach themselves to human beings, cravings if you will. When a person gives into abomination over and over again it begins to change their physical appearance. Think about the similarity between Mark Foley's eyes and Larry Craig's. The beady eyed puffiness of the upper and bottom eyelid. To you, the unregenerated it will just look like a serious lack of sleep but to someone who actually HAS the Holy Ghost AND the gift of discerning of Spirits, it will appear totally differently . Different compulsions change people in different ways. I was asking for a "consult" basically with someone who might be similarly gifted. Obviously I wasn't talking to you, who doesn't even know how to be properly baptized!
not to pick a fight, but
December 1, 2007 - 21:02 ET by candanceYou are not saved unless you are saved the way the Apostles say you should be.
Keith I know you have strong views, but IMO this is a little bit too legalistic, especially for a political website.
I think it enough to be saved the way Jesus Christ says for us to be saved - since He is kinda the one who gave salvation in the first place - and He is the ultimate judge of our relationship with him. No man dictates our salvation. Not the Pope. Not the Apostles. Not even the great Saint Peter.
We can talk about Rick Warren being a liberal pastor, but when we start judging the salvation of someone who loves Christ, we're on thin ice.
The most dangerous thing in the world is an angry person with political power.
Well said, candance
December 1, 2007 - 21:05 ET by JerWell said, candance.
Jer
Discerning of Spirits
December 2, 2007 - 02:14 ET by jonathanandersonThere's 15 different types of devil spirits listed in the Bible ... that's about half of what can be categorized and precisely described in Satan's functioning kingdom today.
Learn them, recognize them, and stop their mouths with the sword of the Spirit [the Word of God] :
1 - unclean spirits : the only devil spirits mentioned more than 2 times in the New Testament [spoken of FIFTEEN times] ... they provoke and inspire people to speak out of order
2 - familiar spirits : the only devil spirits mentioned more than 3 times in the Old Testament [spoken of FIFTEEN times] ... they can have intimate knowledge of the details of your life [these are the types of spirits that the John Edward and psychic crowd operate] - and they use that knowledge to attack and eviscerate you [see the woman of Endor ... 1 Samuel 28:7-20]
3 - spirit of whoredoms : this type of spirit causes people to err, to glorify vanities and lies, and to engage in sexual lasciviousness [see Hosea 4:12 and 5:4]
4 - spirit of fear : a spirit that makes the person they possess, or enter, timid and afraid
5 - spirit of divination : this type of devil spirit moves and inspires its host to boldly and brazenly mock those who are trying to hold forth God's Word [see Acts 16:16-18]
Acts 16:16-18
(16) And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
(17) The same followed Paul and us, and cried [krazo - screamed or shrieked in a mocking or sneering tone], saying, "These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation."
(18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Use a PC Bible and do a word search on "spirit" and "spirits" ... that will bring up the rest.
one of the top ten antichrists?
November 30, 2007 - 19:58 ET by professor truthAre you referring to the AP coaches poll or the BCS poll?
You know what, professor
December 1, 2007 - 03:56 ET by fitzfongYou know what, professor truth? You won't find me sending too many compliments in your direction, but that was funny. Nice one.
Rick Warren's church is not
November 30, 2007 - 14:20 ET by motherbeltRick Warren's church is not the "religious right." It's a typical liberal, touchy-feely church that emphasizes community and "social justice" issues...just the kind of stuff liberals love to sink their teeth into (while dismissing moral issues like abortion.)
Indeed Mother
November 30, 2007 - 14:29 ET by acumenAhhh, the church of anything goes -- All the glory none of the guilt.
You are right acumen. I've
November 30, 2007 - 18:27 ET by misterbee241You are right acumen. I've read Warren's material and there is absolutely NO conviction in any of it.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
Mother
November 30, 2007 - 14:35 ET by ricklailYears ago I got into studying the "emergent church." Warren's church falls into this catagory. They deal more in entertaining. You pretty much pegged it right saying "touchy feeling." There are numerous articles published on the subject of the emergent church. One is here. (I know it comes from the SBC but it is good.) Joel Osteen also falls into this catagory. They evangelize for members not for salvation.
When I first read about Hillary going there I understood why. Most of the members don't know a tumble full of Bible. They are not able to discern what she really is. Please re-read the story of Ahab and Jezebell. Bill and Hillary are types of those two.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
Anyone that watches and pays
November 30, 2007 - 14:41 ET by sunandsteelAnyone that watches and pays attentions should be able to tell that the Clintons are full of crap.
I do agree with the views concerning these "churches". "Lets get more people to come and buy stuff, I need another Mercedes."
What doesn’t kill you, only makes you pissed off. -Children of Bodom
They evangelize for members
November 30, 2007 - 15:31 ET by motherbeltThey evangelize for members not for salvation. -ricklail
You've got that right. Every article about the church mentions, usually in the very first paragraph, the huge number of attendees.
A rew years ago several
November 30, 2007 - 18:25 ET by misterbee241A rew years ago several churches in my area did Warren's Forty Days Of Purpose Program. It looked good on the surface. But it wound up splitting some churches and some families. I left my church of 11 years because the pastor took it upon himself to transform our traditional Baptist church into one of Warrens' seeker churches. The old traditional things and people were swept aside. What's ironic, Warren says in his book The Purpose Driven Church not to try to change a traditional church. I'm serving in a church now where I'm needed and happy. I've talked to our pastor about the 40 days of purpose and he said he's not a fan of Rick Warren.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
My only question is, why
November 30, 2007 - 14:28 ET by BeowulfMy only question is, why would any church have to turn left to support Shrillary? Isn't she a "moderate"???
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
Saddlebrook?
November 30, 2007 - 15:16 ET by LilyPearlI think you mean "Saddleback." Anyway, I am disgusted with Rick Warren for associating himself with her like this. It just causes left wing networks to spin it so that it seems like we evangelicals will abandon our allegiance to Christ and His standards. The Bible says we should abstain from all appearance of evil, and this just looks bad.
This is just more confirmation...
November 30, 2007 - 15:37 ET by Prester John...that the MSM considers evangelicals witless wonders. Remember the Washington Post article from a few years ago that claimed evangelicals just weren't quite as smart of the rest of population?
No doubt the MSM thinks Hillary will be able to waive her magic wand and conservative church goers will meekly fall in line behind her.
The MSM truly does not have a clue.
Rick Warren does not speak
November 30, 2007 - 15:47 ET by msh1973Rick Warren does not speak for any Christian I know...he has turned to the "dark side" as far as I am concerned.
Religious Right turning Left
November 30, 2007 - 15:49 ET by Chris NormanReligious Right turning Left to Hillary? She hasn't a prayer. :)
Religious Right turning
November 30, 2007 - 17:25 ET by motherbeltReligious Right turning Left to Hillary? She hasn't a prayer. :)
No kidding. This is not the religious right. HRC and Warren are pretty much in the same area of Left Field, except possibly on the abortion issue. But they will both put that aside, for their mutual benefit. Warren gets another A-list name endorsing his AIDS effort, and HRC gets to look "religious."
I disagree wholeheartedly!
November 30, 2007 - 17:54 ET by KeithI disagree wholeheartedly! She has a very good prayer! The LEAVEN that has crept into the Christian church as it relates to Christs ACTUAL message, intent, purpose and result, has been lied about by every Church that BAPTIZES differently than the APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST DID ( in Jesus name as opposed to empty titles "Father, son, holy ghost".) The only baptisms performed in the bible are in His name not those empty titles. They also differ from the Apostles on what actually constitutes SALVATION! Dangerous ground there! In short, most of your churches have ALREADY compromised with Hillary, you just didn't KNOW IT! This is how you are supposed to be baptized...
Acts 2:38 King James Version(KJV)
Public Domain
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
AND this is what is supposed to happen to you when you receive the Holy Ghost.
cts 2:4 (King James Version)King James Version(KJV)
Public Domain
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now most of you go to churches that differ on these KEY points. And it's not ME that they "differ" with mind you, it's JESUS CHRIST'S CHOSEN APOSTLES. Now, you're right that Warren is compromised, but so is the doctrine that most of you are familiar with. I say this in love, encouraging you to read for yourself the Word as it relates to salvation. It's like the Matrix and it's time to take the blue pill people. Here's proof that you've been lied to coming and going and that there ARE people who know the difference. You've heard it said that Jesus is "love" and that he came to "bring peace on earth", certainly laudable goals. But what it both of these phrases were DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to the purpose of Christ's coming as told BY JESUS CHRIST? Then it becomes evil right? Just as you fail to understand what name in which salvation is given (acts 4:12), you similarly fail to understand even WHY He came and WHAT He left behind for you.
MATT 10:34-39
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
It isn't about what you think it's about. When you can answer the question '"What issue does the dissention or upheaval that Christ came to bring even into families, rest upon? " Hint : Acts 1:4 john 15:26 John 14;26 ACTS 1:8 Acts 2:33 Acts 2:4, Acts 2:38, Acts 4:12, ACTS 19:1-6, Acts 8 all. God Bless
Hillarious
November 30, 2007 - 16:00 ET by American TaxpayerThis is a perfect example of why I stopped watching the big three. Even with Dan Blather gone CBS still has to make the news instead of just reporting it. CBS NBC ABC NYT NYP all have a left wing liberal agenda and activly massage the news to fit this agenda. As for Hillary and the church that is hillarious....we all know and recognize that she will say or do anything to gain support.
It's Ok for Lefties, not for Righties
November 30, 2007 - 16:42 ET by exLibIt's OK for the left to go into Churches and "preach" and make campaigh stops, but Bush has been accused so many times of crossing the "imaginary" "line" of seperation of Church and State and I don't even remember him speaking in a Church.
Remember the General in a Church in Seattle had to resign, to name one clear example.
It would be funny if it weren't so serious. Bush acts and talks like a sincere Christian and the media is worried we are going into Theocracy. Hillary, Bill, Obama, you name, go into churches and attack the President using out of context scripture and the left applauds, isn't this great!
Damn Good Point
December 2, 2007 - 01:25 ET by jonathanandersonThe MSM isn't going to attack first string antichrists ... they're going to protect and idolize them.
Hey Pastor Rick...who would
November 30, 2007 - 16:53 ET by KStormHey Pastor Rick...who would Jesus abort?
The Beast And The False Prophet
November 30, 2007 - 18:02 ET by misterbee241I think it's interesting that the Beast and the False Prophet are together under the same roof in Saddleback. Oh wait - The Beast is a man. She's the Dragon the Beast works for.
Rick Warren doesnt speak for this evangelical.
And btw - it's SaddleBACK church not SaddleBROOK.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
Contrary to the MSM's belief...or
November 30, 2007 - 19:16 ET by GoldAngelhope----we evangelical voters are not fools. We weren't fooled by Bill's Sunday morning photo ops with his 50lb Bible (that looked hardly ever used) and we aren't fooled by Hillary's overt claims of faith to pander for votes from the largest base in a church that is led by someone whose biblical credibility is suspect. We will never support or vote for her.
As mentioned above, Rick Warren's ministry is about "feel good Christianity" instead of adhering to the standards of the Bible. And the Democrats' support of abortion alone places them in direct opposition to that very basic fact.
Rick Warren and the Muslim apologists
November 30, 2007 - 19:21 ET by River CityRick Warren and Joel Osteen are probably very nice guys. I don't know them. They practice a type of Christianity that makes everyone feel good. Recently Rick Warren and Robert Schuller were signatories to the recent apology to the Muslim scholars along with a whole list of other "Christians" who felt Christians had done the Muslim faith wrong. Hot Air has the shameful display here. These people are selling out their own faith for short term gain. The Muslims they apologized to when they signed this letter do not accept their apology. How in the heck can they apologize for the Crusades?
Rick Warren may do some good work for AIDS victims but Christ requires us to do more than good works and make people feel good.
"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Hillary Clinton, 6-28-04 San Francisco
Relax people...there is
November 30, 2007 - 19:57 ET by JerRelax people...there is little reason for the media's overreaction, or for your collective anxiety. In a later interview today, Warren explained that the four leading Republican candidates and the four leading Democratic candidates were invited to personally attend a service at his church to speak specifically about their views and proposals regarding AIDS. Of the eight, seven sent videos, Hillary showed up.
During the interview Warren acknowledged his disagreement with Hillary regarding abortion, and also noted that Bush had done more than any other President in supporting the fight against AIDS.
Jer
Rick Warren
November 30, 2007 - 22:49 ET by candancethe four leading Republican candidates and the four leading Democratic candidates were invited
They were smart for not showing up. When courting votes from the religious right, you don't do it by befriending Rick Warren.
Warren acknowledged his disagreement with Hillary regarding abortion
If he really cared about abortion he would be more livid than that. It's not fair to scold us all for AIDS and then turn around and not give a dern for the 3 thousand babies who died yesterday due to abortion.
And the issue here is not that Rick Warren is liberal - we already knew that. Or Hillary trying to play Christian - we knew that too. This is about the media promoting a notoriously liberal church as the voice of the religious right.
card holding member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
Maybe she doesn't fit your
November 30, 2007 - 23:04 ET by JerMaybe she doesn't fit your definition of a Christian. Fortunately, your opinion doesn't count.
Jer
religious right
November 30, 2007 - 23:26 ET by candanceRegardless of my personal feelings, you cannot say Rick Warren represents the religious right in America.
card holding member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
And regardless of whether I
November 30, 2007 - 23:38 ET by JerAnd regardless of whether I can or can't, I didn't.
Jer
ACTUALLY MY OPINION DOES
December 1, 2007 - 02:51 ET by KeithACTUALLY MY OPINION DOES COUNT. Since I, like all REGENERATED CHRISTIANS will judge this world. I know that goes against the "don't judge, lest ye be judged" pablum you got in liberal school. Suffice to say that you never understood that scripture EITHER, it's about not being the thing you're judging NOT about "not judging". The reason that it's not about "not judging", oh ye of little biblical knowledge is because that would contradict THIS....
1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall bejudged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Of course if you're part of the false (catholic) church prophesied here (1Tim 4:1-4) , you have no concept of what a saint even is. You think it's a guy who's been dead a couple hundered years or so whose worked miracles. As with most things the catholic church believes this is WRONG too. Obviously Paul was WRITING to the saints ( ordinary Holy Ghost filled tongue talkers) in the above letter, not to those long dead.
Hillary Clinton is NOT a Christian
December 2, 2007 - 01:16 ET by jonathanandersonShe's a devout antichrist who will NEVER believe Romans 10:9-10.
Romans 10:9-10
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [if you make Jesus Christ your PERSONAL and DAILY boss of your life], and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation [confessing the truth only brings you TO salvation ... corresponding ACTIONS and DEEDS bring an individual INTO complete wholeness].
The only thing that has followed Hillary Clinton her entire life is evil, scandal, and criminal acts.
Proverbs 13:21
Evil pursueth sinners : but to the righteous good shall be repaid.
Nahum 1:3a
The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked :
Rick Warren
November 30, 2007 - 23:10 ET by POOCHI want to defend Rick Warren even though most of you have your minds made up that he is the antichrist because he does not yell at me each Sunday and tell me that I'm going to hell. I don't agree with his stance on global warming but Rick has helped me tremendously with my understanding of what God's purpose is for my life. Alot of you have shown your hatred for Rick because he does not live up to your standards of what it means to be a Christian. Not very Christian like in my eyes.
Rick's mission is to reach non beleivers and seekers. Most of you sound like fire and brimstone type Christians hung up on tradition and of course his approach makes you uncomfortable. But to a new Christain, it is a safe place to learn how to be a Christian. Something no one ever taught me before.
As someone who was raised like some of you "Snake Handlers", I know he Preaches the Gospel just like I was raised to beleive and has brought thousands to Christ. What would you have him do? Storm abortion Clinics and have Hillary crucified? Would that make you happy?
uh..yeah
November 30, 2007 - 23:33 ET by candanceAnyone here a snake handler?
Not me.
Does Joyce Meyer yell fire and brimstone?
What about James Dobson?
The point you're making is not the point of this article. You cannot take Rick Warren and pass him off as official spokesman for the Bible belt when every leader evangelicals look up to disagrees with him.
That's like saying "hey Joe Lieberman is pro-life so maybe the DNC is shifting that way."
card holding member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
Agreed, candance. I said
December 1, 2007 - 08:46 ET by motherbeltAgreed, candance. I said earlier in this thread that Rick Warren is NOT the "religious right." His church is about as liberal as one can be. And that's what the point was.
And pooch, what's with the "you snake-handlers" remark? Even among the "religious right" I would bet 99.9% of them don't handle snakes. That was a gratuitous slap at Christians....
Not very Christian like in my eyes. -pooch
Yes, that's quoting your own words back at you.
Snake Handler Reference
December 1, 2007 - 14:04 ET by POOCHThe Snake Handler reference is about the passage in the bible that states Christians could handle snakes and not be harmed.
It was a reference to those who beleive that every word in the bible is to be taken literally. God does not want me to gouge my eye out. He is referring to doing away with things that prevent me with following God.
It's a safe place to learn how to GO TO HELL.
December 1, 2007 - 03:53 ET by KeithPooch, you wrote a serious and thoughtful post so I'm going to do the same. I am not trying to "diss" you and your beliefs and I hope that you can believe that I'm trying to help you. There are more warnings in your bible against listening to FALSE DOCTRINE than there are any other SINGLE SUBJECT, did you know that? Why do you think that might be? Why do you think that Jesus spent all that time teaching His Apostles about the false teachers that would ravage the flock, if anything goes ? I mean, time was short, Jesus knew that they would come for him soon and he wastes precious time saying all this?.....
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to thefalse prophets.
Luke 6:25-27 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be falseteachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 John 4 (Whole Chapter)
Click the links and check the text. This is just a SMALL sampling of the verses that speak against false doctrine but WHY? Why all this attention to a subject that doesn't even bother YOU? Just THINK about that for a second, you've been going to "churches" that tell you that it DOESN'T MATTER how you're baptized and that it DOESN'T MATTER how one gets the Holy Ghost. Well, if that's true why on earth did Jesus spend half his time on earth teaching that it DOES? It MATTERS how you're Baptized. Don't think so? Maybe the words of Jesus can help you on that..MARK 16:16-17
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Jesus thinks that Baptism is important and you will NOT be saved without it. You MUST be "born of the water" AND " of the Spirit".
JOHN 3:5
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (BAPTIZED) and of the Spirit ( HOLY GHOST FILLED), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
When the APOSTLES were set to begin the greatest missionary journey in the history of the world, Jesus told them to WAIT until they had RECEIVED the Holy Ghost. These were people that had walked with him for 3 and a half years in the case of Peter and Andrew and for a considerable time for all of the rest. Yet THEY WERE NOT ready to preach CHRIST'S word! Why? Because as learned as they were, they were UN-REGENERATED, they did NOT have the Spirit of Christ on the INSIDE yet! Notice how he stops them from leaving .....
Acts 1:4,5
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Remember early in Matthew when John the Baptist baptized everyone? Remember how he said that it was the FIRST part of the process? NOTICE how Jesus now EXPANDS the use of the word "baptized" to include the reception of the Holy Ghost. Completing the "born of the water and of the spirit" formula for salvation that Jesus gave to Nicodemus. Now, I know that you are used to pablum so I'll break it down in stark contrast.
You have been MIS-led to believe: It doesn't matter what you do as long as you have "believe". The Bible contradicts that thought process...
James 2:19,20
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Your "belief" isn't very precious since the devil ALSO believes and will not be "saved" by it. Faith without works is DEAD. And the WORK of faith is OBEDIENCE. JESUS said you MUST be born of the WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, not me! So it would behoove you to discover what the heck that means!
You have been MIS-led to believe that it doesn't matter HOW you were baptized just as long as you WERE baptized! That would make sense if "multiple" baptisms were to be recognized by God, but are they?
Ephesians 4:4,5
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, ONE baptism,
Now, if the BIBLE tells you that there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, who is Rick Warren to disagree? Who is YOUR PASTOR to disagree for that matter? Now, IF the bible says that baptism is of paramount importance and that you won't be saved without it AND that there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, it would behoove you to find out which one is recognized by God, right? Perhaps it would be THIS one, uttered by Peter on the day of the first Holy Ghost filled message!
ACTS 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now, who the heck is Rick Warren, Jerry Falwell, joel osteen, billy graham, jesse jackson, to DO IT DIFFERENTLY? ANSWER? They are false teachers, deceitful workers who don't have the Spirit and have misled MILLIONS.
You have been told that "all you have to do is call on the name of the Lord" and you'll be saved! Certainly there are scriptures which preliminarily say just that. I'll tell you a secret, all the places that the fake churches use to "substantiate" these claims, are taken woefully out of context. If they were right then Jesus wouldn't have directly refuted the notion here... Matt 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Here is Jesus sending folks that "called on His name" to HELL. Did Rick tell you about that? You've been misled to believe that Jesus came to bring "peace on earth and goodwill towards men" another shameful misstating of the Lords purpose. The Lord came to do the exact OPPOSITE. He came to bring DISSENSION and turmoil because He came to make CHOICE among MEN. He came to offer a fount of reconciliation to God but only if men would REPENT. Here is Jesus speaking on the subject of Him bringing "peace" on earth...Matt 10:34-39
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
PEACE was the OPPOSITE of Christ's self stated purpose. See, how little you're being taught? You railed against "snake handlers", I could even hear the sneer in your voice as you typed. But did you know, oh little man, that THEY have BIBLE on their side? Unlike you. Allow me to extend a quote I used before a little further....
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
See? You've been taught to RIDICULE one of the VERY THINGS that Jesus SAID was PROOF of your salvation! Signs FOLLOW belief, therefore, no sign.....NO BELIEF! Belief in Christ isn't a mere acknowledgement of his living, it's stepping out on faith to get the ANSWER FROM CHRIST. That's why Rick Warren has a church with a gazillion members! If you told people that the "church" wasn't something that they could "join" but was instead something to which they must be "appointed" by Christ, you'd have a smaller church! If you told people the truth, namely that AFTER we baptize you in JESUS NAME we then are going into a small room to pray and we'll stay there until God gives you a new language to speak...you'd have a TINY church! Exactly "thirty, sixty or an hundred fold" which by the way, are the correct numbers to expect a church to be, according to Christ.
It's a safe place to learn how to GO TO HELL.
December 1, 2007 - 03:53 ET by KeithPooch, you wrote a serious and thoughtful post so I'm going to do the same. I am not trying to "diss" you and your beliefs and I hope that you can believe that I'm trying to help you. There are more warnings in your bible against listening to FALSE DOCTRINE than there are any other SINGLE SUBJECT, did you know that? Why do you think that might be? Why do you think that Jesus spent all that time teaching His Apostles about the false teachers that would ravage the flock, if anything goes ? I mean, time was short, Jesus knew that they would come for him soon and he wastes precious time saying all this?.....
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 7:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to thefalse prophets.
Luke 6:25-27 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be falseteachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 John 4 (Whole Chapter)
Click the links and check the text. This is just a SMALL sampling of the verses that speak against false doctrine but WHY? Why all this attention to a subject that doesn't even bother YOU? Just THINK about that for a second, you've been going to "churches" that tell you that it DOESN'T MATTER how you're baptized and that it DOESN'T MATTER how one gets the Holy Ghost. Well, if that's true why on earth did Jesus spend half his time on earth teaching that it DOES? It MATTERS how you're Baptized. Don't think so? Maybe the words of Jesus can help you on that..MARK 16:16-17
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Jesus thinks that Baptism is important and you will NOT be saved without it. You MUST be "born of the water" AND " of the Spirit".
JOHN 3:5
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (BAPTIZED) and of the Spirit ( HOLY GHOST FILLED), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
When the APOSTLES were set to begin the greatest missionary journey in the history of the world, Jesus told them to WAIT until they had RECEIVED the Holy Ghost. These were people that had walked with him for 3 and a half years in the case of Peter and Andrew and for a considerable time for all of the rest. Yet THEY WERE NOT ready to preach CHRIST'S word! Why? Because as learned as they were, they were UN-REGENERATED, they did NOT have the Spirit of Christ on the INSIDE yet! Notice how he stops them from leaving .....
Acts 1:4,5
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Remember early in Matthew when John the Baptist baptized everyone? Remember how he said that it was the FIRST part of the process? NOTICE how Jesus now EXPANDS the use of the word "baptized" to include the reception of the Holy Ghost. Completing the "born of the water and of the spirit" formula for salvation that Jesus gave to Nicodemus. Now, I know that you are used to pablum so I'll break it down in stark contrast.
You have been MIS-led to believe: It doesn't matter what you do as long as you have "believe". The Bible contradicts that thought process...
James 2:19,20
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Your "belief" isn't very precious since the devil ALSO believes and will not be "saved" by it. Faith without works is DEAD. And the WORK of faith is OBEDIENCE. JESUS said you MUST be born of the WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, not me! So it would behoove you to discover what the heck that means!
You have been MIS-led to believe that it doesn't matter HOW you were baptized just as long as you WERE baptized! That would make sense if "multiple" baptisms were to be recognized by God, but are they?
Ephesians 4:4,5
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, ONE baptism,
Now, if the BIBLE tells you that there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, who is Rick Warren to disagree? Who is YOUR PASTOR to disagree for that matter? Now, IF the bible says that baptism is of paramount importance and that you won't be saved without it AND that there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, it would behoove you to find out which one is recognized by God, right? Perhaps it would be THIS one, uttered by Peter on the day of the first Holy Ghost filled message!
ACTS 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now, who the heck is Rick Warren, Jerry Falwell, joel osteen, billy graham, jesse jackson, to DO IT DIFFERENTLY? ANSWER? They are false teachers, deceitful workers who don't have the Spirit and have misled MILLIONS.
You have been told that "all you have to do is call on the name of the Lord" and you'll be saved! Certainly there are scriptures which preliminarily say just that. I'll tell you a secret, all the places that the fake churches use to "substantiate" these claims, are taken woefully out of context. If they were right then Jesus wouldn't have directly refuted the notion here... Matt 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Here is Jesus sending folks that "called on His name" to HELL. Did Rick tell you about that? You've been misled to believe that Jesus came to bring "peace on earth and goodwill towards men" another shameful misstating of the Lords purpose. The Lord came to do the exact OPPOSITE. He came to bring DISSENSION and turmoil because He came to make CHOICE among MEN. He came to offer a fount of reconciliation to God but only if men would REPENT. Here is Jesus speaking on the subject of Him bringing "peace" on earth...Matt 10:34-39
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
PEACE was the OPPOSITE of Christ's self stated purpose. See, how little you're being taught? You railed against "snake handlers", I could even hear the sneer in your voice as you typed. But did you know, oh little man, that THEY have BIBLE on their side? Unlike you. Allow me to extend a quote I used before a little further....
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
See? You've been taught to RIDICULE one of the VERY THINGS that Jesus SAID was PROOF of your salvation! Signs FOLLOW belief, therefore, no sign.....NO BELIEF! Belief in Christ isn't a mere acknowledgement of his living, it's stepping out on faith to get the ANSWER FROM CHRIST. That's why Rick Warren has a church with a gazillion members! If you told people that the "church" wasn't something that they could "join" but was instead something to which they must be "appointed" by Christ, you'd have a smaller church! If you told people the truth, namely that AFTER we baptize you in JESUS NAME we then are going into a small room to pray and we'll stay there until God gives you a new language to speak...you'd have a TINY church! Exactly "thirty, sixty or an hundred fold" which by the way, are the correct numbers to expect a church to be, according to Christ.
How about you guys take this
December 1, 2007 - 08:35 ET by motherbeltHow about you guys take your discussion over to the forum where it belongs?
Update: My goof...I thought the two extremely long posts were separate, and that they might be better off in the forum area, but apparently Keith double-posted, and it's not a discussion.
MB
December 1, 2007 - 14:00 ET by MrShyIs Keith now debating with himself?
Wouldn't surprise me :p
"MY end justifies THAT mean." - Shakespeare (not really)
Love
December 1, 2007 - 13:54 ET by POOCHThe most important thing Jesus taught us is to love one another. Jesus forgave prostitutes, tax collectors, even the religious leaders who had him crucified. Rick wanting to help the sick (even homosexuals) who have contracted HIV is exactly what Jesus would have done. I know in my heart that Rick beleives everything in the Bible just as you do Keith. I have heard him in person teach that abortion is wrong and that homosexuality is a sin. But how effective would Rick's effort of reaching out to those with this terrible disease be if the main purpose was to condemn those who are infected? Condemn the sin not the sinner.
I don't want homosexualtiy to become accepted as the norm just like many of you. But I will not stop trying to help others just because thier beleif system contradicts mine. They need compassion not a crack on the skull with the bible.
..and if letting Hillary speak at my church will help convince others to do whatever it takes to help these unfortunate people, then isn't it another example of God using even her to forward this message of loving one another?
Wow Keith. You are as
December 1, 2007 - 16:25 ET by mostlymoderateWow Keith. You are as loony as I previously thought.
MostlyMod
December 1, 2007 - 16:28 ET by MrShyHe's an actor.
Dana Perino and Newsbusters gals* will look great in Shywear
(*NB guys, too)
The Sword of the Spirit
December 2, 2007 - 00:59 ET by jonathanandersonEphesians 6:10-17
(10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
(11) Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
The Sword of the Spirit
December 2, 2007 - 00:57 ET by jonathanandersonHell of a post ... nothing cuts to the heart of an issue like the Word of God.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Jonathan
December 2, 2007 - 01:13 ET byif you continue that thought you come to a therefore which indicates a conclusion the premises come first but you don't complete the thought.
rule seven: if you come to a therfore -- see what it is there for.
When you get there ask 'who needs mercy and grace' Remember also the writer says let us (includes himself in the need)
GoHunter08
religious right
November 30, 2007 - 23:50 ET by shawn228I actually support many of the things the GOP does, like Strong military and border security, the religious right is the main reason why I have not voted for the GOP in the last 2 elections. The extreme religious right is what many of the members of Newsbusters accuse Democrats of....forcing their beliefs on everybody else.
I don't mean force the good book and Christ down our thoughts, they try to tell us what we can watch on tv, what billboards are obsene, why condoms are evil, etc, why euthanasia is wrong. I have no problem with anybody having prayer or organized religion in public, just don't force it on everybody else and the same goes for Muslims.
You are not alone!
December 1, 2007 - 04:08 ET by mostlymoderateYou are not alone!
Thy Lincoln Liar
December 6, 2007 - 15:15 ET by jacketdevilanagram from "Hillary Clinton"
Just more hypocrisy from the one who "hides and lies"