It could be Christmas approaching, or it could be the Catholic Church's success last month in its support of Proposition 8, the initiative to restore marriage in California. But it's curious to see what's been on the minds of the folks at the Los Angeles Times in the past few weeks:
1. "Pope's new edict on the priesthood" (Mon. Nov. 17, 2008, editorial): The Times finds it "troubling" that the Church employs psychologists to screen candidates for the priesthood. It also goes without saying that the Times does not like the Church's policy of disallowing men with "deep-seated" homosexual tendencies to be priests. In the end, the Times finds the Church's policies "cruel" and "unprofessional."
2. "What would Mary do?" (Sun. Nov. 30, 2008, editorial): Surprise! The Times likes the idea of women priests in the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, the Times doesn't exhibit the slightest clue as to why the Catholic Church can't ordain women. "Holy Orders" is a sacrament, and sacraments were instituted by Jesus himself. The Church simply does not have the authority to change a sacrament. Has the Times heard of JPII's 1994 "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis"?
3. "Solace, for some, is set in stone" (Mon. Dec. 1, 2008, top of page A1, "Column One" story): No hit on the Catholic Church would be complete without revisiting the sex abuse scandals. The article details how monuments have been built at a number churches around the country with the hope that they "'might provide solace' to survivors and their family members." Indeed, the article recounts tales of abuse that are awfully angering and terribly sad. But as the Times continues to hammer the Church on this issue, it fails to consider: What other organization has built tributes to victims of sex abuse at the hands of its members? A leading expert in education has stated, "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests." "100 times"! With this stat in mind: Will the Los Angeles Unified School District be building monuments for the enormous number of students who have been abused by its teachers? Why not? Does the media really care about child abuse, or just the vocation of the abuser?
There's a lot one can say about each of the articles above. But, basically, the Times continues to misrepresent the actual teaching of the Catholic Church while singling it out for views which are opposite of those of the Times. (We've addressed this in a number of previous posts: here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.)
A great response to the Times' incessant bashing of the Church can be seen in a recent letter to the editor in the paper (Sat. Dec. 6, 2008). Check it out:
With regard to the editorial "What would Mary do?" -- and based on the anti-Catholic vitriol in The Times' reporting and editorial pages -- Mary would cancel her subscription.
Charles O'Connell
Stevenson Ranch
Right on, Charles.
—Dave Pierre is the creator of TheMediaReport.com and a contributor to NewsBusters.



















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
So...the Times gets
December 8, 2008 - 00:14 ET by rbosqueSo...the Times gets indignant and "upset" when gay priests abuse minors...but they're not allowed to screen new priests so it doesn't happen again.
Ummm, am I missing something here?
I had the same thought,
December 8, 2008 - 05:39 ET by motherbeltI had the same thought, which is why I keep saying irony is lost on these liberals.
As the letter above O'Connell's said:
As no one is forced to be Catholic, and anyone who is Catholic can quit
at any time, it smacks of something other than curiosity that a
newspaper thinks it right to judge a world religion through its secular
lenses.
There is definitely more than simple commentary going on here.
Let's all hold our breath waiting for the series of editorials criticizing Islam.
What do we expect? They
December 8, 2008 - 08:49 ET by SmartypantsWhat do we expect? They blamed Bush for not stopping the 9/11 attacks, then castigated him for taking measures to stop future attacks.
Stupid is as stupid does
December 8, 2008 - 10:30 ET by SQL_SamI'm waiting for the screening of these so-called teachers who seem to be screwing every teen they can get their hands on. From what I've been reading the teachers are the new "preiest" when it comes to this molestation crap
Karma?
December 8, 2008 - 01:23 ET by MazziWSJ says that the Tribune Co. - owners of LA Times and Chicago Tribune, among other papers, is preparing for a bankruptcy filing, possibly this week.
How could this happen? Don't we - the great unwashed - realize how important the media IS? Are we so foolish that we don't understand that they are the (self-proclaimed) 4th branch of the government... the "watchdogs" for all of us. Why, without them, we would never have known how stupid Sarah Palin is, and how Messiah-like Obama is. And this is how we thank them? By not buying their birdcage liners?
I am just sorry I cancelled my subscription 2 years ago. It would have been so much more satisfying to do it first thing tomorrow morning - to drive another nail in their coffin. Ahhh well.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
Oh Mazz,
December 8, 2008 - 10:21 ET by FastEdnow you've done it - you're part of the problem! - Not keeping your subscription is part of the "why the paper is failing" - you were supposed to continue to read their drivel, half truths and sip the kool aid, whild ignoring the falshoods - on the shame - tha't what happens when americans vote with their wallets.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
The Catholic Church and the Mormon Church oppose gay marriage
December 8, 2008 - 07:43 ET by PopularTechI hope people take note, so there can be more unity with the base.
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I know you'r the new troll around here
December 8, 2008 - 10:32 ET by SQL_SamBut wanted to mention that Prop 8 wouldn't have passed without the black vote too, so put that on your list also.
The New Troll?
December 8, 2008 - 10:59 ET by PopularTechReally? I'm new and now a troll?
The fact remains the Catholic and Mormon Churches both opposed gay marriage and helped get Prop 8 passed.
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Well Troll maybe a harsh word
December 8, 2008 - 11:56 ET by SQL_SamBut I have see your comments on these boards and you seem to argue just to argue.
"The fact remains the Catholic and Mormon Churches both opposed gay marriage". Of course they opposed it, no law against that, it is within there right to oppose anything they don't believe in. but it was the voters (aka: majority) themselves that passed it. I'm not sure what you're point is I guess.
No I never argue just to argue
December 8, 2008 - 15:57 ET by PopularTechThat is a new one. My point is that the Catholic and Mormon Churches share many of the same values as other churches.
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T*ts Up
December 8, 2008 - 07:45 ET by NoJellyIt's so nice to see those tireless protectors of tolerance and understanding, the fearless adherants of objectivity and truth are getting the circulation numbers they so deserve.
Heh heh heh, when the fetid, burst bellies of the Left Coast Press are prone on the beach, slowly feeding the vultures and endangered creatures of the Big Sur and surrendering their virulent, pustulent fluids back to the seas for purification, it's only too sad that the truth for the reason of their demise will NOT be forthcoming, it will, somehow, be Bush's fault...
In an Evil Land . . .
December 8, 2008 - 08:33 ET by Kirk TurnerIn an evil land, religion is bad.
Let the Judges Rule
December 8, 2008 - 08:42 ET by allanfDoes anyone see a time when Courts seek to impose such rules on the Church?
I would hope not...because
December 8, 2008 - 09:07 ET by taterI would hope not...because if that ever happens, look out.
www.theholyrosary.org
"There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we can not resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary." -Sister Lucia
They already did
December 8, 2008 - 10:06 ET by moderncommentaries83See Catholic Charities in Massachusetts, where the courts ruled the Church-run adoption agency had to violate her beliefs by placing children with same-sex couples.
The adoption service shut its doors rather than compromise.
Expect more if FOCA becomes law, and if gay marriage is approved on a federal level.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
How many Catholic Hospitals
December 8, 2008 - 11:18 ET by ricklailHow many Catholic Hospitals have shut their doors rather than perform abortions? I know there was a stink in Charlotte years ago because Mercy Hospital refused to do abortions.
YOU CAN KEEP "THE CHANGE" PALIN 2012
Shut One's Doors
December 8, 2008 - 12:59 ET by allanfThese two examples could be viewed by a Court as secondary to the religous mission of the Church. Will the time come when a Court orders a Priest to perform a gay marriage?
In a word
December 8, 2008 - 13:03 ET by moderncommentaries83Yes.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Forcing Compliance
December 8, 2008 - 13:06 ET by allanfOn issues such as gay marriage and abortion I've noticed a disturbing trend. The left seems intent on forcing professionals who disagree with their dictums to comply under penalty of law.
→ allanf
December 8, 2008 - 13:12 ET by Cool ArrowThey want us to put our dictums where they weren't meant to be.
It's great to see the LA
December 8, 2008 - 09:03 ET by SmartypantsIt's great to see the LA Times knows how to run the Catholic church, but they cannot seem to run their own organization.
waiting...
December 8, 2008 - 09:34 ET by candanceThe LA Times will run a hit piece on Muslim clerics who overlook child abuse within their flocks....any day now....
I'm a typical white person.
especially their practice
December 8, 2008 - 19:20 ET by Cape Conservativeof honor killings of innocent women who have been raped...their own family members do it! Let's begin that little investigation, LAT!
A PROUD member of the Oogedy Boogedy branch of the GOP!
My response to each article in turn
December 8, 2008 - 10:04 ET by moderncommentaries83While not typical of the "general population", a majority of the abusers in the Catholic Church were/are homosexual and committed acts of ephebophilia (abuse of adolescents/teens) rather than pedophilia. Quite frankly, they were doing no different than what NAMBLA encourages (although that in no way justifies it).
Theologically liberal types (the kind the LA Times would approve of) tried - after Vatican II - to remake the Church in their own image by taking over seminaries, colleges, parishes, and religious orders. They want the Church to overturn 2,000 years of doctrine and - rather than be a beacon of Christ's teachings - be a social club with a doctrine no different from the DNC. Pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-women priests, etc.
A Catholic blogger I know said the day will come when the Church is attacked not for the abuse and cover up, but for addressing the issue and attempting to remove the offenders (and those likely to offend - homosexuals) from the priesthood. Looks like he was right, and sooner than he predicted.
All of you who look at this and scratch your head, your feelings are justified. The Church must be punished for the abuse, but must also be punished for removing the abusers (or potential abusers) from her midst. In other words: the abuse is not the problem, the prudish doctrines of the Church (which prohibit such disgusting behavior) are what's wrong and should be changed.
Those of you who know Scripture know that Mary - upon the visitation of the angel Gabriel - said to the angel that she would willingly, gladly accept whatever plans God had in store for her. "Be it done unto me according to thy word," was her response when she was told she'd be the mother of Jesus our Savior.
In other words, Mary was obedient to God's will from the moment of her conception...
and Mary remained obedient until her death and Assumption into heaven.
Mr. Pierre is absolutely correct that the Church has no authority to change a sacrament instituted by Christ (not that liberals get that - they think they are god and savior, so anything they want goes). Additionally, a priest at Mass acts in persona Christi ("in the person of Christ") in order to consecrate the bread and wine during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. ONLY a male priest can act in persona Christi because Christ was a MAN. A woman - acting (and only acting) as a priest - cannot consecrate the bread and wine and cannot confer sacraments like Reconciliation or Last Rites. In other words, three of the four central sacraments of the Catholic faith, vital to salvation, would be rendered invalid.
But, of course, what does the salvation of souls have over political correctness, right?
Mary would not only cancel her subscription, she'd tell the LA Times that she'd obey God's will and not man's wishful thinking.
This ties into the first one inasmuch as the Church will never be able - in the eyes of the liberal LA Times and anti-religious public - live down the abuse, no matter what they do.
As Mr. Pierre points out, teachers (and non-Catholic clergy) have also engaged in sexual abuse and at a greater rate. I did the math and of the world's Catholics, only .0013% abused. That doesn't make it right by any stretch of the imagination and I - as a Catholic - want the offenders defrocked and imprisoned. Teachers who abuse (see: Mary Kay Latourneau) are treated like celebrities, especially if they're young, blonde, female, and attractive. It's "love" that led her to assault a teenaged boy repeatedly and bear his children.
However, the notion that the Church's teachings on homosexuality and the all-male celibate priesthood is to blame is akin to saying abstaining from drinking makes you an alcoholic. Teachers can be women and marry; as can non-Catholic clergy and the population at large. If the Church's teachings were to blame, there'd be no abuse in society because the factors (women, marriage, etc.) would be the only difference. They aren't.
The Church is working very hard to ensure this doesn't happen in the future. And - lo and behold - parishes, dioceses, and orders that are orthodox and follow the Church's teachings had few, if any, cases of abuse. Wonder why...???
To my fellow Catholics, I can say this to you with certainty: Take heart and know that the age of the "Call to Action", "Spirit of Vatican II" Catholic is swiftly coming to an end. Look at any event held by such liberal Catholic churches or groups and you'll notice most of the heads there are platinum or well on the way to being so. There are few, if any, youth who join such churches and stick around for long (and, any child-bearing age couples there often don't have children to continue on the traditions). Religious orders and parishes and diocese that play fast and loose with the Catechism will either turn back toward Christ or fold.
Remember that they stay "Catholic" (in name only) because the media clearly laps up their weak theology, and that they are the rebels. Ever wonder why the "Catholics" who support abortion, gay marriage, women priests never jump ship for, say, the Episcopal church? Because then they'd be anonymous fish in a sea of alike thinkers. Attacking the Church, which they clearly despise, makes them "cool" and favored in the media.
The Church will never change her teaching on the faith. N-E-V-E-R. NEVER. We will be the same today as we were yesterday (and two millenia ago), and we will be the same tomorrow. Two millenia of this stuff didn't defeat her, they won't win now.
Christ gave St. Peter the keys to heaven and promised the hell would never break down the gates of our Church. We - in conjunction with our fellow Christians - will fight the evil in our culture and we will prevail. But we must remember to pray for our fortitude in the times ahead, when we will certainly face attacks from without and idiocy from within. And for those who are led astray by clergy and religious and laity who don't understand the teachings of the Church or willfully misinterpret them for political, personal gain.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
However, the notion that
December 8, 2008 - 10:06 ET by motherbeltHowever, the notion that the Church's teachings on homosexuality and
the all-male celibate priesthood is to blame is akin to saying
abstaining from drinking makes you an alcoholic.
I would put it a little differently.
They seem to think that men prey on young boys only because they don't have a woman readily available.
You're right - that's part of it
December 8, 2008 - 10:12 ET by moderncommentaries83Even if that wasn't clear in my original post, you are right, motherbelt.
The priests had to abuse because they didn't have a wife to go home to. Liberals seem to think libertine rules regarding sex are the only way to happiness and fulfillment.
I don't know about the priests of other Catholics here, but my priest has two parishes with literally thousands of families in them. Between Masses, weddings, baptisms, funerals, religious education classes, RCIA, marriage prep, illness, home visits and all of his administrative duties - his schedule is so booked it took us nearly 6 months to get him to our house for dinner.
I've seen his calendar, and many priests are in the same boat, and it would mean he'd severely neglect his family if he had one. Much in the same way a man with a 100+ hour a week job is never home. And - of course - you know what the media meme would be then: Priests are bad husbands/fathers because they work so much.
The liberal media forgets no man enters the priesthood not aware of the celibacy requirement and still does so voluntarily and out of love of Christ and a desire to serve (and save) the souls of others. And that they are happy to do so, and - so far as I'm aware - no one has died from being celibate. People can, have, will and do live without sex. It is not the end-all be-all of our existence.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I think that homosexual men
December 8, 2008 - 14:33 ET by ahusserLike other groups would tend to: band together, promote their lifestyle, and show preference to their own and prejudice to those not of their 'persuasion'. This would include eventual and gradual promotion within the priesthood to positions of power. After all it is a bureaucracy like others and I have seen it happen in government where I was an employee.
The fact that these folks were allowed to enter the priesthood without screening of some sort could either be attributed to ignorance or active recruitment dependent upon the 'persuasion' of those making such decisions. I submit that homosexual priests came into postions of administrative power within the church and abused their powers. I also believe that some seminaries became nothing more than homosexual men's clubs discouraging or corrupting non-homosexual novitiates driving them from the priesthood and the seminaries and welcoming those like themselves.
Change: When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can become deadly projectiles. From a Poster
What I have noted in the
December 9, 2008 - 08:47 ET by andophiroxiaWhat I have noted in the homosexual community is that since they realize that at least their lifestyle is an evolutionary dead end, the only way that they can perpetuate it is that they indoctrinate. I've noticed that people younger and younger are thinking that they're bi or gay. I again reiterate that even though I am sure there are genuinely gay people out there, most of them choose the lifestyle.
The thing what bothers me is that they confuse young people in regards to sexuality a lot of the time and therefore they try to perpetuate their lifestyle by indoctrination, rather by nature.They bring up Kinsey of how he supposedly found out that everyone had a little homosexuality in them to that everyone wants some sex to being an intimate friend and then trying to hit on you and that if you don't go with it, it's either a "joke" or you're a basher. I've seen this all firsthand and experienced it firsthand as well.
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.” ~ Winston Churchill
That's what I find so
December 8, 2008 - 10:51 ET by taterThat's what I find so fascinating about the Church...Christ promised the gates of hell would not break it down and it has gone on for over 2,000 years. How long has the LA Times existed??? Sure the Church has had it's ups and downs like everything else but can you think of anything else that deals with humans that lasted that long without breaking down?
www.theholyrosary.org
"There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we can not resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary." -Sister Lucia
I never understood
December 8, 2008 - 10:37 ET by SQL_Samwhy women couldnt become priests, Can't a women love god as much as a man? I Always had an issue with that - to me it felt like the "old boy network" was in full force.
Well, I am not a Catholic,
December 8, 2008 - 10:56 ET by sherylsimsWell, I am not a Catholic, but it is in the Bible that women should not be teachers or usurp authority over a man in spiritual matters. God is the one who set it up that way, he created Man with different abilities (in general) and being a spiritual leader is about more than just how much you love God. In general I do believe women are more sensitive to God's leading. That doesn't mean they need to be priests. It isn't really in men's nature to follow women leaders. Is it?
Which Bible?
December 8, 2008 - 11:00 ET by PopularTechThere are many versions...
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Just to name a few, there is
December 8, 2008 - 11:05 ET by sherylsimsJust to name a few, there is the King James, the New King James, the NIV, the English Standard Version, the New Revised Version, The Amplified, the Message, all teach about the same thing in this area. I am not going to argue the Bible with you though.
You have read every version of the Bible?
December 8, 2008 - 11:19 ET by PopularTechHow long did that take?
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Those are only the ones on
December 8, 2008 - 11:23 ET by sherylsimsThose are only the ones on the desk in front of me. The rest are on bookshelves in the other room. Oh, and did I SAY I had read every version? Most of them are for reference and study. Why do you enjoy arguing so much?
PT... Only the good
December 8, 2008 - 11:30 ET by Clear thinkerPT...
Only the good ones!
The Left Still Hating Gov. Sarah Palin
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
That passage also says
December 8, 2008 - 11:33 ET by dvdaughtryThat passage also says women should not wear jewelry, fancy dress, and remain silent with full submission.
Do you sing, put on make up, and don trinkets before you go to church? I hope not, because that is what it says.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Actually, it says to let
December 8, 2008 - 11:39 ET by sherylsimsActually, it says to let your beauty be from inside and not from those external things. (the adorning of jewelry, or the "braiding of the hair") It doesn't say you cannot sing. And this is why I will not argue the Bible with an unbeliever. Pearls before swine.
And just for the record, I don't wear make up or jewelry, but I do sing. The keeping silent is IN CHURCH where women were piping up and giving their opinions and interfering with the teaching of God's Word.
While I agree that's what
December 8, 2008 - 12:46 ET by dvdaughtryWhile I agree that's what it means, it's just not what it says. Then if the intent is to keep the peace in church, why can't they (women) have any authority?
What say you to this?
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Galations 3:28
December 8, 2008 - 12:55 ET by moderncommentaries83That passage means that - in Christ - all will and should be treated equally and that Christ (and God) loves all equally.
However, equality is not to be confused with androgyny. Men and women are inherently, biologically, different (as God made us) and each of us has our own roles in accordance with those differences.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
So let me get this
December 8, 2008 - 12:56 ET by dvdaughtrySo let me get this straight.
We are equal in Christ, just not the church?
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
of course dave
December 8, 2008 - 13:03 ET by candanceAnd when a teenage boy has an issue controlling his sex drive, he can go talk to a pretty woman for counseling - since "forcing" him to talk to a man would be sexist.
I'm a typical white person.
Did you mean to reply to
December 8, 2008 - 13:11 ET by dvdaughtryDid you mean to reply to something else?
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
no I didn't
December 8, 2008 - 13:15 ET by candanceThat was meant as a reply to your post. You insisted that Catholics practice something akin to "separate but equal" so I cited a case where being a man or woman makes a tangible difference.
I'm a typical white person.
I am not referring to
December 8, 2008 - 13:29 ET by dvdaughtryI am not referring to situations like that. My point is if there is no difference in Christ, why should there be one in the church?
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
because
December 8, 2008 - 13:45 ET by candanceWhen it comes to having a relationship with Christ, we are all loved and accepted equally. But that doesn't mean we're all built to do the same things with our earthly bodies. Men and women are technically equals in the workplace, but still parents prefer women to daycare their children and loggers prefer strong men to help push a Cat out of a ditch.
Same concept with God. Everyone is loved the same and given equal opportunity to serve where they are most needed.
Are you really asserting that we ignore all physical/emotional differences between males and females, or are you being tedious for the sake of making a point?
I'm a typical white person.
No, am not (trying) being
December 8, 2008 - 13:57 ET by dvdaughtryNo, am not (trying) being tedious. We simply disagree. I don't believe the scriptures teach a priesthood, let alone restritctions on who can/can't be leaders.
There are just to many examples of Prophetess' and women in a leadership roles in the Bible.
If I did not let women teach me I would have thrown away some of the best Spiritual instruction, in my life, away.
This is not only a "Catholic" thing. The church I grew up in also taught the same thing.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Opinions are irrelevant
December 8, 2008 - 15:02 ET by Mike BrattonFor those of us who are Christians, our responsibility is to line up our beliefs with the revealed Scriptures, not to crowbar the Scriptures into line with our opinions and beliefs.
Women in leadership is a wonderful thing, and you are correct--the Bible has numerous examples of such, and endorses their actions.
However, the Bible does not have examples of woman serving as pastors or priests. And to be more precise, the Bible specifically precludes women from serving in such a capacity, as part of a larger set of qualifications listed in both 1 Timothy and Titus.
And no, this isn't up for debate.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
And no, this isn't up for
December 8, 2008 - 15:15 ET by dvdaughtryAnd no, this isn't up for debate.
And you can show me where "Pastors" and "Priests" are found in the New Testement?
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Pastors & Priests
December 8, 2008 - 15:27 ET by Free StinkerPastors are mentioned in Ephesians 4:11
Christ is mentioned as a Priest in Hebrews 5:1-12
→ You are correct sir
December 8, 2008 - 15:37 ET by Cool ArrowHuman beings can be pastors, but there's no mention of Christians being priests.
In fact, Christ alone is referred to as our "High Priest".
I certainly don't need an imitation.
1 Peter 2:9 (New
December 8, 2008 - 15:43 ET by botg1 Peter 2:9 (New International Version)
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
----- Radical Liberal
→ Thanks botg
December 8, 2008 - 16:08 ET by Cool ArrowI knew that was in there somewhere. That there is no recognition of any individuals as priests, Neither the Apostles, nor any of their fellow preachers are identified as more priestly than any other Christian.
Excellent passage botg,
December 8, 2008 - 23:16 ET by RESTLESS 1I believe that it was Luther that said "we are all priests", meaning we are all called as Christians to spread the Word. What good are the vestements of the Ecclesiastes when any non believer can don them, and any one of true Faith can be adorned as a bum?
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Yes.
December 8, 2008 - 15:33 ET by Mike BrattonAre you interested in discussing the matter and what the Bible has to say on the subject, or just in pushing your own opinion?
If you want to be objective about it, that's great. If not, just let me know now.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Your arrogance is what
December 8, 2008 - 15:44 ET by dvdaughtryYour arrogance is what kills these types of discussions.
I made a mistake, I was unaware of "pastors" in the sprititual gifts passage mentioned above.
I also have a hard time reading about the likes of Deborah and closing the door on women in leaderships roles.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
I too wonder why women are
December 8, 2008 - 15:58 ET by Free StinkerI too wonder why women are not allowed leadership roles in the Church, but to date, no one has ever showed me where it is allowed.
And your example of Deborah isn't really that good. In Judges 4, Barak is promised by God that He will deliver the enemy onto Barak's hands. When Barak says "I'll only do it if Deborah comes along!" God tells Barak that the enemy leader will be delivered into the hands of a women, not Baraks.
"Gov. Palin has been subjected to one of the most massive and dishonest pile-on smear attacks in the history of liberal media." -- Lowell Ponte
But Deborah was a Judge.
December 8, 2008 - 22:06 ET by dvdaughtryBut Deborah was a Judge. That is what I am basing my point around.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
and?
December 8, 2008 - 22:11 ET by candanceBeing a judge in old Israel wasn't quite the same as being a priest.
Women are given leadership positions in the church through leading womens' Bible studies, leading the choir, and often leading youth church. But men are simply better suited as pastors/priests. I fail to see why this is such a big deal.
I'm a typical white person.
What do you mean and?
December 8, 2008 - 22:26 ET by dvdaughtryFirst, I am not sold that even a man can be a priest, since Jesus has taken that position for us (Heb 3:1, Heb 4:14, and Heb 6:20)
Next, Deborah was a spritual leader and not of the "sunday school" type.
Agreed it is not a big deal, but there has been no scriptual evidence that women cannot hold these types of positions. All there has been is doctrinal teaching and most of that through the Catholic prism.
It's just a discussion. Take a step back before you throw another one of your fits.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
I'll take that as a "no."
December 8, 2008 - 21:19 ET by Mike BrattonThat there is objective truth to which we ought to align ourselves, truth that is consequential and substantive, should mean more to you than scoring debate points.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
I am not sure to what you
December 8, 2008 - 22:08 ET by dvdaughtryI am not sure to what you are referring.
Deborah was a Judge. The spritual leader of Isreal--and female.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Then let me recap.
December 8, 2008 - 22:51 ET by Mike BrattonYou asked, "And you can show me where "Pastors" and "Priests" are found in the New Testement?"
I responded, "Yes." Others have even given you Biblical references.
Yet rather than discuss pastors and priests, you bring up an Old Testament Judge.
So, I'll ask you my follow-up again: Are you interested in discussing the matter and what the Bible has to say on the subject, or just in pushing your own opinion?
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Here's my opinion
December 8, 2008 - 23:04 ET by dvdaughtryIn your 38 years of heading toward eternity, you have all the answers. I am glad that God has crossed our paths because now I have been taught the truth by one of his most humble servants.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
So your opinion is to personally attack others?
December 9, 2008 - 14:35 ET by Mike BrattonWith some disingenuous projection and fabrication thrown in just for flavor?
Brilliant.
In my 38 years of being a Christian, I have discovered that God, actually, has all the answers. When we are, yes, humble enough to accept what He has to say on a given subject, we can have access to those answers, too.
Oh, look--this will embarrass you, dvd. As I believe I've mentioned here before, in my own personal opinion, I have no problem with women functioning as either pastors or priests. It is only because God teaches against it in revealed Scripture that I align my belief with His. I'm against it because God is against it; the lack of humility lies in attempting to use and abuse the Bible, trying to make it teach something diametrically opposed to what it actually does teach.
And not that I expect it, but you really should apologize. Trying to trash others is a poor substitute for actually being part of a discussion.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
No apology because I am not
December 9, 2008 - 15:07 ET by dvdaughtryNo apology because I am not sorry. Your arrogance has shined through in your posts. I've come across the likes of your attitude my entire church life.
I wish you would have put this post first instead of taking this position of answering questions with questions and thinking it was a gotcha excercise. I was simply presenting an argument and you ran with it like I was attempting to disrupt Christianity at its core.
I'll see you on the other side brother.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Not that I expected one, but you never know.
December 9, 2008 - 19:44 ET by Mike BrattonYou attack people, and are aghast when called on it. It's much easier to name-call than to discuss.
Typical liberalism.
And if you're indeed a brother in the faith, I exhort you in the name of Christ to prayerfully repent of such behavior.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
You confuse equality with androgyny
December 8, 2008 - 13:42 ET by moderncommentaries83You confuse equality with androgyny. In the Church, men and women have different roles because we have different strengths/weaknesses and inherent abilities, characteristics, and talents. As I tried to explain to Sam, Christ was a man and the apostles He made priests were men, ergo, we continue that theological basis for the all-male priesthood.
But that doesn't mean women are less valued or treated poorly. We have different callings but Christ loves us all.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
If you read the whole chapter
December 8, 2008 - 13:01 ET by cocodrieyou will find that Paul was giving instruction on conducting a worship service.
At the time that this was written there was a severe problem with women shouting at their husbands what to say, disrupting the services. There was a need to restore order.
The instructions on dress and jewelry were also for during the service.
Women could teach, wear jewelry and make-up just as today.
Cocodrie
December 8, 2008 - 13:10 ET by dvdaughtryWe agree cocodrie.
I'll ruffle some feathers with this, but it is how I see it. I am giving my best efforts to say this politely.
The problem I have with Catholicism is that it seems to teach Catholicism and not Christianity.
One thing I am sure we all agree upon is that God's grace is big enough to cover us all.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
there ya go dave
December 8, 2008 - 13:14 ET by candanceWith the essentials, seek unity. With the nonessentials, seek liberty. Will all seek love.
I'm a typical white person.
Thanks Candance. But, my
December 8, 2008 - 13:23 ET by dvdaughtryThanks Candance. But, my name is Drew. That was part of my confusion above.
I have been to mass one time. I was the last to stand, last to sit, last speak!
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
oops!
December 8, 2008 - 13:25 ET by candanceWhere on earth did I get the idea your name was Dave? Sorry about that.
I'm a typical white person.
Candance
December 8, 2008 - 14:18 ET by dvdaughtryDon't sweat it. I have been called much worse ;)
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Good afternoon dvd
December 8, 2008 - 13:31 ET by cocodrieAll my life I have bounced back and forth between the Catholic church and evangelical churches. The core doctrines do not conflict but the man made traditions are at odds.
I studied for the priesthood at a catholic seminary and in later years attended classes at evangelical bible college so I don't have any feathers to ruffle. I've been plucked clean by the critics that wanted me to comdemn the beliefs of others.
You are correct about Catholicsm teaching Catholicsm. That holds true for all denominations.
In one class we discussed the difference in the division of the ten commandments by the Catholics compared to Protestants. I got in trouble for saying "God didn't give us ten commandments. He gave us THE commandments, man decided to divide them and number them.
See you later, I have to go.
God bless
So you seem fine with the old boy network
December 8, 2008 - 12:07 ET by SQL_SamI'm sorry - they shouldn't be teachers? wtf? You don't have an issue with that? Sorry but most of my teachers have been women and I'd argue that statment is full of sh*t. Actually that whole usurp authority over a man is complete BS too, go ask a women in the middle east about that one. God didn't set it up that way, the "PEOPLE" that "WROTE" the bible did (to make them more powerful over women apparently - sounds like they feared women, which makes sense if you think about all the molestations you hear about from the priests - never heard of a nun do that). Women can be and are probably better and being spiritual. Thanks for not answering this and just telling me "it's in the bible" what BS!
Good morning Sam
December 8, 2008 - 12:24 ET by cocodrieThis chapter in first Timothy gives instruction for worship and prayer service. Many people, including ministers have misused it to promote their own agendas and control over people.
Your criticsms would be better aimed at those of today who abuse their authority than at the Apostle Paul who is giving direction on how to conduct a worship service.
Hi Coco, good morning to you as well.
December 8, 2008 - 12:30 ET by SQL_SamI agree fully, I wasn't ripping on the Apostle Paul, I was talking about current day stuff. Didnt mean to confuse.
My apologies Sam
December 8, 2008 - 12:45 ET by cocodrieI'm just a little too passionate sometimes. Been a committed christian since I was an alter boy (with some lapses of course) and have seen scripture twisted to mean all sorts of stuff. This passage has been often misused especially by ministers.
Have a blessed day.
Sam
December 8, 2008 - 12:25 ET by moderncommentaries83Sam:
So you seem fine with the old boy network
In a word, YES, I’m fine with the “old boy network” because 1) I’m secure enough in my womanhood to know it does not negatively affect me and 2) I know – based on my history and experience – what you call the “old boy network” I call the path to my salvation.
Yes, some churches interpret that passage of the Bible to say women can’t be teachers – but not the Catholic Church. Catholic women can be teachers – both in religious programs and church/secular schools – without consequence.
So nice try, but no – that’s not part of Catholic doctrine.
God didn't set it up that way, the "PEOPLE" that "WROTE" the bible did (to make them more powerful over women apparently - sounds like they feared women, which makes sense if you think about all the molestations you hear about from the priests - never heard of a nun do that).
So you claim “God didn’t set it up that way”, but see no irony in the fact that the people who created the doctrines of the Catholic Church, who lived either in the time of Christ or the early days of Christianity would know better than you – who live in the 21st century? Catholic doctrine and worship is the same today as it was 2,000 years ago.
Your comment about the priests abusing because they feared women doesn’t even make sense. The victims were adolescents, and usually male – going back to my correct assertion that the problem is ephebophilia, carried out by homosexual clergy. How does that come from a fear of women?
As for the nuns, they too unfortunately engaged in abuse: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/13/us/13nun.html.
Thanks for not answering this and just telling me "it's in the bible" what BS!
How did I not answer your question? Also, I’m supposed to explain to you why Catholics believe women can’t be priests without citing our evidence? How does that even make it possible?
I explained it to you – at length – above. Men are priests because that’s what Christ – not the “’people’ who ‘wrote the Bible” – determined was correct.
Sorry you can’t deal with it. But how condescending of you to imply I need you to determine how I should and shouldn’t feel about my faith – reminding you I chose to become Catholic and I choose to remain Catholic because it’s what I believe to be correct.
You don’t. That’s your choice. No one is making you attend Mass, so why do you care what we do in our churches?
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I get it you like and have no problem with being controlled
December 8, 2008 - 12:47 ET by SQL_SamLet me first say that I'm not trying to rip on your faith, never would. I thought I was in a debate about an opinion of mine about women being priests - that's it. Look what has happend. This thing has exploded all because I questioned something I didnt understand (and still dont, because have not got an explanation except for that it was written by our Christ). If that is the answer - I think it is wrong, and dont get all upset it is just my opinion.
I was trying to respond to all your cut and paste and got tired of it. I'm going to stop this and just say we're not going to agree - I think women should be priest, I think they'd be good at it. And about the nun thing, people are people, but it is more prevelent with the men then women, I guess that should be my point.
Doublespeak
December 8, 2008 - 13:07 ET by moderncommentaries83Sam:
The reason I think you're attacking my faith is because you title your comment
but then turn around and say
It's hard not to see this as an attack or rip on my faith when you tell me I like "being controlled" because I think the male priesthood is correct.
I've tried to explain - using the documents of the Faith, the Bible and the Catechism - why men are priests. That's where my faith comes from, and if you're looking for an explanation outside those two sources, good luck. You're not going to get anything that's sound.
Again, I don't even know what this means. My "cut and paste" is reaffirming my faith. That's it.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
You dont think Religion is about control?
December 8, 2008 - 13:16 ET by SQL_Saminteresting. Then let women be priests.......
Don't worry politics isn't about control either. *rolls eyes*
→ Women can be priests!
December 8, 2008 - 13:31 ET by Cool ArrowWomen can be priests in any religion that allows it.
The RCC doesn't allow it. The RCC is not about to change its mind based on a NB discussion.
There's no logical or doctrinal support for including women as priests.
But then again, I don't see that there's any Scriptural support for a priesthood as it exists in Christianity today either.
No, I don't
December 8, 2008 - 13:46 ET by moderncommentaries83If it were about control (as, say, parts of Islam are), my priest would show up at my door on Sunday mornings if I didn't go to Mass and drag me there.
We have this great thing called "free will", wherein we can choose t follow or ignore the teachings of our faith (Catholicism or any Christian denomination). God gave us that choice and it is a powerful gift.
It does, however, come with a caveat: At the end of all things, we will have to answer to God for the choices we made with His gift. And then, there will be no middle ground. The final destination(s) are clearly outlined.
Politics is a manmade structure. Put not your trust in princes, as the saying goes...
God is a different matter.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
If it isn't control
December 8, 2008 - 17:26 ET by SQL_SamWhat are the 10 commandments then? I think there is a "thou shalt not" in there once or twice...
Crucify them!
December 8, 2008 - 13:53 ET by acumenYou don't think Religion is about control?
Depends on which religion?
The Christian religion should be about self-control. Reading this thread I'm not so sure.
An individual upon noting Mohandas Ghandi read the Bible daily asked the mahatma why he did not convert to Christianity if he read the Bible regularly. Ghandi responded that he agreed with the words of the Bible but too frequently observed how many self-described Christians behaved and saw little resemblance in their actions to what he had read in the Bible.
Now I'll just step aside and let the non-Catholic Christians get back to bashing the Catholic Christians to prove Ghandi's point.
I disagree
December 8, 2008 - 13:53 ET by candanceChristianity is not about control - it's revealing the truth and saving us from the control of sin. God's law teaches us how to overcome the flesh in order to be reunited with Him.
I'm a typical white person.
Nod. Its all about
December 8, 2008 - 14:08 ET by dvdaughtryNod. Its all about freedom.
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Sam: I’ll repeat
December 8, 2008 - 11:13 ET by moderncommentaries83Sam:
I’ll repeat what was written in the original post, as well as my comment.
Catholics believe there are seven Sacraments – Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick (p/k/a Last Rites), Matrimony and Holy Orders.
These Sacraments were instituted by Christ during His Earthly ministry. They are part of worship, acts of grace designed to increase holiness and our relationship with Christ, and they “have a teaching function. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and object, they also nourish, strengthen, and express it; that is why they are called "sacraments of faith." The sacraments impart grace, but, in addition, the very act of celebrating them disposes the faithful most effectively to receive this grace in a fruitful manner, to worship God rightly, and to practice charity.” (source: http://archmil.org/ourfaith/sacramental.asp)
Because these Sacraments are instituted by Christ, we – as men – cannot change them. The Sacrament of Holy Orders was instituted by Christ first when he gave Peter the “keys to Heaven” and said Peter was the rock on which He (Christ) would build His Church. This makes Peter the first Pope and the remaining apostles were – by Christ’s orders to go out and preach to the people – the first priests.
Christ, Peter, and the apostles were all men. Therefore, it has always been doctrine – in following Christ’s institution of the Sacrament of Holy Orders – that only men can be ordained to the priesthood. From St. Peter to Pope Benedict, we can trace back through two millennia the succession of Popes and the ordination of priests has been the same for 2,000 years. There is a rich history and lineage on which we founded our faith.
The men ordained priests have a great responsibility to faithfully follow the teachings of the Church and the grace to confer the Sacraments on the faithful. Specifically and especially the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick. Bishops (the next and highest rank of Holy Orders…even the Pope is the Bishop of Rome) usually confer the Sacrament of Confirmation (although there are exceptions) and always confer the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
The Sacrament of Baptism is usually conferred by a priest but in emergency situations or situations where no priest can be found in a reasonable amount of time, it can be conferred by the laity following the Trinitarian order (read: “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) with water. In Matrimony, the priest is the Church’s witness to the marriage, but the bride and groom are the ministers of the Sacrament.
Anyway, overturning Christ’s institution of the Sacrament of Holy Orders renders the grace and responsibility of the priesthood null and void. Women cannot be priests because Christ did not include them in His institution of the priesthood. Women who act as priest are not consecrating the Eucharist, are not absolving the faithful of their sins in the Sacrament of Penance, and cannot confer the graces received in the Anointing of the Sick. They invalidate the salvation rendered in the Sacraments and put souls in peril.
This has nothing to do with the Church “hating” women or “oppressing” women or the "old boy network" or believing women can't love God as much as men. I am a Catholic woman and I feel no disregard or dislike for me on the basis of my gender. There are just things I can’t do. I can’t be a priest. But I can be a lector, an extraordinary minister, a religious education teacher. I – a woman – was entrusted with the enormous task of making a documentary for my parish. A HUGE undertaking.
I just can’t be a priest. Big, hairy deal. My life is not over, nor am I diminished, by not having a role that I can’t – theologically speaking – fulfill.
Anyone who understands the doctrines of the Church knows that – next to God and Christ – the Blessed Virgin Mary is the most revered saint in Catholicism. A woman to whom we owe a great deal, because she said “Yes” to God’s plan and mothered Christ. We who understand know the Church believes Mary (a woman) loved God more than anything.
I am so sick of gender-neutral language, politically correct gender roles, or the notion that social constructs are the only reason men and women are different. In fact, I stopped going to a convenient Holy Day Mass near my job because the preside says “Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier” rather than “Father, Son, Holy Spirit” lest someone be offended.
No. I was designed by God, through Eve, to be inherently different from men – with strengths and weaknesses, traits and characteristics that no social engineering can or should change. I find it ironic, fascinating, and infuriating that feminism tells us women are just as good, just as strong, as men until something comes along that makes women “feel bad” – then feminists swoop in to take care of the bad feelings and undermine the faith of millions in the name of equality and fairness. That – to me – indicates feminists and pro-female Catholic clergy folk are not as strong or self-assured as they would have us believe.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I stoped reading after your first paragraph
December 8, 2008 - 12:18 ET by SQL_Samblaa blaa blaa. Still don't see why not having a penis makes it different. And just because it was written in a book makes it different. Darwin was a book too, I see some people believe it some don't - but posting passages from it or trying to explain them wont convince someone who is questioning it. I'm not Republican, I am a conservative libertarian, if you havent guessed. There was one reason why - Religious right.
Well maybe you should read
December 8, 2008 - 12:22 ET by taterWell maybe you should read past the first paragraph.
www.theholyrosary.org
"There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we can not resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary." -Sister Lucia
Anyone who "demands" the
December 8, 2008 - 12:32 ET by NBFAnyone who "demands" the priesthood is completely unworthy of it.
The Church lacks the authority to change the matter of the Eucharist from bread to apple. The Church also lacks the authority to change the matter of the priesthood from males to females.
Obviously you don't get it
December 8, 2008 - 12:30 ET by moderncommentaries83Sam, if you were truly a "conservative libertarian", you'd respect my right - and the rights of all Catholics - to worship as we please. Male clergy and all.
Let me repeat this: Christ was a man (other historical counts, including those from Islam), the apostles (the first priests) were men. We've continued that correct Sacramental traditon.
I repeat again - if I cannot defend my positions based on the Bible (the source of our teachings) then how am I supposed to explain it to you?
I can't - which means, in other words, you don't want to listen to any argument that doesn't meet with your worldview.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I dont get it
December 8, 2008 - 12:53 ET by SQL_SamWhere have I not been respectful of your right to worship as you please? I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. I dont care if you worship a dog (god spelled backwards btw). My whole point is just because it is written, doesnt mean you cant question it! (regarding women being priest). I'm stoping now because this is getting absurd.
"I repeat again - if I
December 9, 2008 - 08:58 ET by andophiroxia"I repeat again - if I cannot defend my positions based on the Bible
(the source of our teachings) then how am I supposed to explain it to
you?"
You do bring up a good point here. I notice the Left has really gone out of its way to nullify religion as a piece of the argument. However, their religion of socialism and communism is perfectly ok and that is totally valid as a point. Nope, it goes both ways. If your premise is one thing, then you can use it to explain your point.
By the way, I'm not dogging on Sam, I'm just glad someone brought that point up in an argument.
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.” ~ Winston Churchill
→ Oh Really?
December 8, 2008 - 12:42 ET by Cool ArrowThese Sacraments were instituted by Christ during His Earthly ministry.
A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. - Baltimore Catechism.
"During His Earthly ministry" would suggest Mary and Joseph, and millions of couples before them, lived in sin.
No, not exactly
December 8, 2008 - 12:44 ET by moderncommentaries83If you're referring to marriage, no - God designed man and woman to live together in marriage and - prior to Christ it wasn't sinful. Christ instituted it as a sacrament at the Wedding at Cana.
Perhaps "during His earthly ministry" is a poor choice of words, but that's no the implication I was going for.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ No, He didn't
December 8, 2008 - 12:52 ET by Cool ArrowBaptisms were already being performed before Jesus showed up at the river, and Jesus was present at the wedding at Cana, but there is no evidence He performed the ceremony.
From the standpoint thet "He was in the beginning with God", one can say matrimony was instituted by Christ, but it is not something He instituted in an earthly way, anymore than He instituted crucifixion.
I am a believer in Jesus Christ as the Savior of my soul. He did many great things in his 33 year earthly walk, but it is simply nonsense to say Our Lord's mere presence at an event constitutes its institutiuon by Him.
Sorry, can't buy that line "because the Catholic Church says so".
Sacraments
December 8, 2008 - 13:15 ET by moderncommentaries83Yes, baptisms were being performed, but Christ Himself went and was baptized. That indicates to me He not only thought it important, but wanted it as part of the faith.
I never said Christ instituted marriage in an earthly way, as it did exist before His time, but Christ - both at the wedding at Cana and in His teachings to the pharisees, said marriage was indissolveable - just like the rest of the sacraments (I forgot to mention this in my previous post).
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Wrong again
December 8, 2008 - 13:22 ET by Cool Arrow"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Are we reading different Scriptures?
And I still disagree that crucifixion is a Sacrament. You will recall Jesus took part in one of those ceremonies as well, and did not fight it.
moderncommentaries83
December 8, 2008 - 13:31 ET by Free StinkerIf you're referring to marriage, no - God designed man and woman to
live together in marriage and - prior to Christ it wasn't sinful.
Christ instituted it as a sacrament at the Wedding at Cana.
Uh, what wasn't sinful prior to Christ? Marriage, or co-habitation?
because its Catholic Doctrine
December 8, 2008 - 12:29 ET by katainkentIf God is unchanging so should His rules be. A few faiths have Prophets that have revelations that hand down edicts from God to direct a change in doctrine. As far as I know the Catholic Church is not one of them. If people have a beef with the Catholic Church they should make/join a new church and stop trying to make it suit their needs.
"part of what I'm hoping to introduce as the next president is a new ethic of [government enforced] responsibility" - B. Obama
What?
December 8, 2008 - 13:04 ET by SQL_Sam"If God is unchanging" - I dont know where to even begin with that. How do you know he isnt unchanging? I'm very curious to hear your wisdom on that one. From what I know of the bible (which isnt much), god would get pissed every so often and kill some people - how is that not unchanging? That sounds like someone got "moody", but god couldnt get moody if he is unchanging - get what I'm trying to say? I know bad analagy, but just go with it....
hey its not my doctrine
December 8, 2008 - 13:11 ET by katainkentbut I can give you the Pope's address & ph# if you want to continue with your questions.
"part of what I'm hoping to introduce as the next president is a new ethic of [government enforced] responsibility" - B. Obama
LOL
December 8, 2008 - 13:20 ET by SQL_SamThat was great! I'm still laughing! I'd rather drop this whole thing to be honest. I'm getting tired of it.
sorry sam
December 8, 2008 - 13:01 ET by candanceThough I'm not Catholic I respect the rights of the Catholic church to believe whatever doctrine they want. And for the record, there's a big difference between separating priests and nuns vs stoning women to death for being raped. No reasonable person can compare Catholic nuns to anti-feminist laws in the middle east.
Having men and women living/working together in a convent could lead to a lot of trouble, not to mention the fact that women are not always qualified to counsel everyone, just as men are not qualified to counsel every situation. Nuns have their calling while priests have theirs. It isn't about holding women down - it's about encouraging people to serve where they're most useful.
I'm a typical white person.
Thank you
December 8, 2008 - 13:09 ET by SQL_SamThat has been the BEST explanation, i've gotten back so far. If I were to just get one person saying "it's just what we do, no harm trying to be done" I wold have been fine with it, but instead I got biblical references shoved down my throut (sp?). Thank you again, that is what I was looking for.
it's all good sam
December 8, 2008 - 13:18 ET by candancePeople get defensive when their faith is criticized so it's easy for a discussion to turn into an argument. Sometimes we have to focus on logical answers to keep from getting emotional.
I'm a typical white person.
Trib Is in Trouble
December 8, 2008 - 12:50 ET by BW222The Tribune Company appears to be filing for bankruptcy later this week. with any luck, the LA Times will be one of the first parts to fall.
BW222
The basic teachings in the bible..
December 8, 2008 - 12:55 ET by ScrapironThe all knowing media slime machine think every church should violate the 'basic' bible teachings (homosexuals and women in church) on a daily basis to satisfy their ego. Media hypes think the church should be as loyal (actually disloyal) to the bible as the media hypes (traitors) are to their country.
Old, Retired and glad of it.
People who object to the positions
December 8, 2008 - 13:01 ET by katiejaneof the Catholic Church & the Pope regarding female priests or gays or any thing else DON'T have to be Catholics. There are plenty of other churches that might be more to their liking.
→ Exactly katie
December 8, 2008 - 13:05 ET by Cool ArrowIt's not as though there's a Mortal Sin involved or anything like that.
wow
December 9, 2008 - 03:25 ET by thebutlerdiditI'm not Catholic, either, but I even find some of the comments here disrespectful. I am a Christian, I go to a Baptist church, sometimes I visit Methodist churches, I go to where I feel the most comfortable. I guess some of the comments weren't meant to be disrespectful to someone elses feelings and the faith, but I took them that way. I cannot imagine trying to tell others they should think a way different to mine. I don't care for lots of things that go on in other churches, I went to a snake-handling church when I was young, and yes, they were really big rattlers there, and I didn't like it at all! But, hey, they are entitled to do whatever they want in my view. If that is part of their faith, I feel no one has any standing to say they are wrong. Maybe a little nutty.......I feel like if you don't like something in a church, or in religion, keep looking, usually you will find what you can be happy with. Not really sure if I am explaining my feelings well, so, I will leave it there. God Bless All.
SORRY IF THE TRUTH HURTS BUT....
February 1, 2009 - 15:43 ET byThere ain't nothin', if I can get colloquial here, more "anti-Catholic" than the BIBLE.
MAHONEY IS BALONEYFebruary 1, 2009 - 15:24 ET by Acts 2_38
1 Timothy 4
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
None of your apologist writing can change the fact that Cardinal Mahoney, is a leader in the false church prophesied to BE so by Paul to Timothy.
For the first 250 yrs, well after the death of John on the Isle of Patmos, the church only had ONE METHOD OF SALVATION. That method was taught by Christ to Nicodemus in John 3:1-8. It involved water baptism in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, not the false baptism of the Catholic Church or it's offshoots. It also involved the proper reception of the Spirit oF Christ with attendant EVIDENCE, "glossalalia", speaking in other tongues as the Spirit allowed (mark 16:15-20, Acts 2:4 Acts 1:8, Acts 2:33, Acts 2:38 Acts 10:44-48 Acts 19:1-6)
After the church, the TRUE church of Christ was founded the devil did not stop his efforts to CORRUPT the truth. As amply demonstrated by Paul in this prophecy about what would happen once Paul was dead.
Acts 20:28-30
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Well, these speakers of "perverse things" DID arise! Not only were they trying to change the doctrine of Christ before the apostles died, but they obviously continued to change the doctrine AFTER the Apostles were no longer here to keep it straight.
The devil doesn't care if you jump and shout and praise the Lord, he cares whether or not you are saved from the wrath to come, because the bible says that the devil knows his time is short. Through an evil catholic priest named TERTULLIAN, the baptism in Jesus' holy name was CHANGED as well as the requirement given by Christ about the mysterious SOUND, that would accompany each "new birth" (John 3:8)This occurred at the Council of Nicea circa 250 A.D. approx.
Just as the devil tried through emissaries to stop Peter and John from preaching in JESUS' NAME ( acts 5), he definitely wanted to stop you from being baptized properly in Jesus' Name because the devil knows something that the Pope and his deceived cohorts don't know...Acts 4:12
12. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Sometimes it takes a long time for the prophecies of God to come true. It took over 700 years for the prophecies in Isaiah 53 to come to fruition on the cross. For the first 1000 or so years of the "universal" or Catholic churches existence, they allowed priests and nuns to get married. Then the devils that deceived the priests demanded that they change and start being "celibate". EVEN THOUGH THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY MARKS THIS PRACTICE AS A SIGN THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY DEMONS!!!! ( 1Tim 4:1) That is because in order to fulfill scripture the Lord blinded them to the truth of their actions.
This is the reason that everyone else is more upset about the buggery than the priests. This is why they can shuffle PREDATORS off from one parish to the other in an attempt to evade prosecution and investigation with nary a thought for the poor boys who had been buggered! They have had their "consciences seared as with a hot IRON", (1Tim 4:2). If you've ever seen a brand, on cattle or some idiot in a frat, you know that the skin becomes hard and numb, without feeling, never to receive the same amount of feeling again. That is the church that Mahoney is one of the leaders of, the church of satan. Lead by a false prophet who fancies himself a "Pope", who actually fancies himself to be the MEDIATOR between MAN and GOD! How presumptuous, especially since the bible specifically declares that there is only ONE mediator between man and God and that it is NOT THE POPE!
1TIM 2:5
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Get it? ONE MEDIATOR. Get it? NOT THE POPE.
Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are those which testify of ME. Jesus said. Stop listening to some fake priests or preachers! Read the gospels and the book of Acts! See that true Christian faith resembles almost NOTHING that you have been exposed to! See how the Apostles baptized, see how they received the Spirit. If your experience of faith differs in ANY appreciable way, espe