Remember all the doom and gloom warnings that if the $700 billion bailout bill did not pass yesterday that we would be facing an immediate financial collapse? Well, the bailout bill didn't pass yesterday thanks in large part to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's partisan rantings in that chamber. So today comes and instead of financial collapse and panic, the stocks surge as you can see in this Associated Press story. However, the fact that the economic sky did not fall hasn't kept the AP Chicken Littles from continuing to plug for that bailout bill (emphasis mine):
NEW YORK (Sept. 30) - Wall Street snapped back Tuesday after its biggest sell-off in years amid growing expectations that lawmakers will salvage a $700 billion rescue plan for the financial sector. But the seized-up credit markets where businesses turn to raise money showed no sign of relief. One day after the biggest point drop in its history, the Dow Jones industrial average rose 485 points, or more than 4.5 percent - the latest in a string of extraordinarily volatile days in the stock market. It was third-biggest point gain in the Dow's history and the biggest percentage climb in the Dow in six years.
Or maybe the stock market surged because the highly unpopular bailout bill failed to pass. That is an interpretation that AP doesn't seem to even consider.
The recovery in stocks wasn't unexpected as carnage on Wall Street often attracts bargain hunters, though questions remain about how investors will proceed. Without a bailout plan in place to absorb soured mortgage debt and other bad loans from battered banks, investors are left wondering what might restore confidence in lending.
Anybody out there notice a certain trend in this story like continuing to plug for the bailout plan?
Traders on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, still stunned from Monday's 778-point rout in the Dow, warned that the government needs to approve a plan that will sweep away the fears that hobbled the credit markets. While U.S. political leaders have vowed to revisit the issue, the House isn't slated to meet again until Thursday.
They try. Oh how they try.
"If it doesn't pass, then look out below," said Jason Weisberg, an NYSE trader for Seaport Securities. "It could get ugly."
So were there any quotes from traders who opposed the bailout bill? You won't find them in this AP story. However, they do provide one line that there just might be opposition to the bailout bill:
Critics of the bailout package believe that it was too costly and wouldn't have done enough to jump-start lending.
Following that brief acknowledgement that there are opponents to the bailout bill, the AP quickly returns to form:
"I'm not getting the sense that investors are going to be jumping in with both feet until there is some kind of resolution on the plan," said James Maguire, an NYSE floor trader with Christopher J. Forbes. "If there's a no vote, we're going to see a lower overall drift in stocks. It will be a slow bleed."
Perhaps, as Rush Limbaugh has said, this crises is overblown. We now sign off with this quote from El Rushbo today:
...consumer confidence is up, unexpectedly. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 270. How does this happen? How can this possibly be after yesterday's near crash? Would it be, ladies and gentlemen, that people actually do believe in the fundamentals of the United States economy, hmm?
Actually, Rush, the stock market ended up over 200 points above when you made this statement. Which proves that even when Rush is wrong, he is right as he often reminds us correctly.
—P.J. Gladnick is a freelance writer and creator of the DUmmie FUnnies blog.
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WHY????????????????????????????????????
September 30, 2008 - 19:14 ET by BadassBuckeyeDo these media morons keep touting this bail out like it has to occur? Its assinine really!!
Gosh darn socialists are like ants...no matter how many times you squash them...they keep coming back.
It's beginning to have
September 30, 2008 - 19:43 ET by MidAmericaIt's beginning to have the feel of 'global warming'. We've got to act now or we're dooooomed!!
Out here in flyover country, where people are getting bitter, I watched the faces at the local McD's watching the noon news. There is somewhat of a flashback to faces on 9/11. Except now the anxiety is not over the 'crisis' but fear of what the government is going to do to 'fix' the problem. The people who live small aren't happy about giving all their money to the people who live large.
I think it's a little much
September 30, 2008 - 19:46 ET by GregEI think it's a little much to think that one day....whether up or down, should be any "see we told you so" from either side of the issue. The one day massive stock market drop is no more of an emergency than today's massive gain is a "happy days are here forever." One day does not make an economy. A stock surge today doesn't mean anything substantial in the overall, in my opinion. There is a crisis, no doubt, but it's not being explained very well as what are the exact issues. It's mortgage and foreclosure based. Credit. Aside from those things (and those are major of course since credit is what we run on) our economy is ok, but those things are huge and completely cancelling out the rest of the economy because of their being so vital. Credit harder to get, businesses suffer. Businesses suffer, jobs (ie, the people working them) suffer. The bank-to-bank interest rate jumped from 3.88% to 6.88% overnight last night. Huge!
A big day in stocks after a horrendous day yesterday doesn't make anything all fine and dandy. And no I am not for a mass infusion of money. I don't know what plan I'd be for but I know I'm not for Socialism. The Defazio (Dem rep from Oregon) and Kaptur (Dem from Ohio) proposal is interesting.
Again, the issues are not being explained very well by anyone in government. It's talked about as everything is falling apart. Well, yes, if credit falls apart, "everything" isn't a far fetched description though its credit that's creating it and that needs to be explained. If bricks are chopped out from the foundation of your home, it will begin to have issues. The rest of your home is solid, and perhaps the foundation itself is solid, but without those bricks between the house floor and the foundation, the otherwise solid home won't stand. Credit is not the foundation, but it's also not the shingles on top. It's a vital piece to the house standing, and it affects all of us.
Well ok,
September 30, 2008 - 19:46 ET by general companyI posted earlier, the msm is claiming it only came back because they anticipate a bill being passed tomorrow.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
I think speculation of
September 30, 2008 - 19:50 ET by GregEI think speculation of something being done is a very large reason for a stock surge, especially after a mass selloff yesterday and some thinking that they'd jump on that and make a buck today, which they did. But the thought of 'something will get done' will only go so long, and then it becomes a "yea, sure it will" situation and things continue in the wrong direction.
I guess I fell for the hype
September 30, 2008 - 19:52 ET by ApacheI guess I fell for the hype as well. I thought some form of bailout was needed and the mistakes that would have prevented the need were already made. But Newt was making a lot of sense although he started getting shaky last night as well. So the reward goes to Poptech who called it from the start. It's certainly not over yet but I think the bailout overhype can die.
Poptech?
September 30, 2008 - 19:54 ET by P.J. GladnickPoptech? ?????
I might have the name wrong.
September 30, 2008 - 20:04 ET by ApacheI might have the name wrong. A newsbusters member. He was against the bailout, I was for it. I think he gets the cookie. If changing from mark to market will have the same result as spending half the money involved in the bailout then the bailout plan doesn't involve the level of thinking it needs to. I also think Paulson smells fishy.
Exactly the Paulson Plan makes no economic sense
September 30, 2008 - 20:13 ET by PopularTechIf their is something wrong with the market that is would prevent credit from flowing then why not fix that instead of buying worthless assetts that no one wants to buy with tax payer money? That doesn't even make any sense on how that would help and they keep failing to explain it. Maybe because if certain companies don't get a better price for them they are going bankrupt...
Bank of America: 'Paulson Plan Benefits Mostly Goldman, Morgan' (Seeking Alpha)
As for Paulson...
The Great Bank Robbery of 2008 (Robert Murphy, Ph.D. Economics)
Geez,
September 30, 2008 - 20:44 ET by Indiana JoeI didn't even look beyond PJ's post before I replied. Starting to look like you're vindicated here, PT. As Apache says, the cookie may be yours. I'm pretty much convinced.
I'm more interested in making sure the banking system is sound than worried about buying a net for careless high-wire artists.
Metaphorically speaking, of course.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
Be fair, PJ
September 30, 2008 - 20:38 ET by Indiana JoePopTech was against this from the start. He said it would hurt, but the best course was to let the market correct itself, and let the chips fall where they had to. Granted, he wasn't the most diplomatic debater, but there it is.
I thought he was nuts, like a lot of folks did. And this definitely isn't over. But right now, it looks like his idea wasn't as stupid and fantastic as people wanted to make it out to be.
Quite honestly, I'm thinking it will turn out he was right. The only way we'll know is if no bail-out is passed. But everyone seems so in love with the idea, except the taxpayers that is, that something seems inevitable. But the idea that this is more a bank problem than a banking problem is not looking that crazy to me at this point.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
Pop Tech
September 30, 2008 - 21:16 ET by P.J. GladnickNo. I just didn't realize that Pop Tech was Popular Tech. That's why I posted the "?"
Hmm....
October 1, 2008 - 07:59 ET by Indiana JoeDon't know as I'd have admitted that.... ;^)
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
He's settled down. Always
October 1, 2008 - 18:29 ET by celatorHe's settled down. Always had good research material, and I learned a lot from it.
The major media report only half the news. Why are they surprised they have only half the potential audience?
PT = NB Version of Wikipedia. ........
October 1, 2008 - 18:39 ET byThe version in PT's imagination.
Abe = NB Version of Uneducated
October 1, 2008 - 19:19 ET by PopularTechAbe you got nothing - so you try to bring up the Wikipedia argument? The one where you could never answer simple questions. Unlike Wikipedia, I actually source and quote ALL of my information.
PopTech wasn't the only one around here calling BS on the BO.
September 30, 2008 - 19:59 ET by R D HelmLOL-Its just that he went so, er, overboard about it.
-Dave
Fear makes people do weird things....it makes their brains stop working. - Dave Ramsey
My troll fuse length today: 0.000mm
Oh he is great unless you
September 30, 2008 - 20:07 ET by ApacheOh he is great unless you are on the receiving end. LOL
Yeah, Dave
September 30, 2008 - 20:54 ET by Indiana JoeLOL, "overboard" indeed. But I think he got the message. He did tone it down a bit later.
More flies with honey, and all that.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
Guys?
September 30, 2008 - 21:46 ET by RESTLESS 1I hope I am reading your comments wrong and that you don't believe that the worst is over. I have been against the bailout from the beginning, but you do realize that the worst is not over. I would expect about 3 months of decline in the market if this bill is not passed. How sharply will depend on just how bad this mess is. Eventually, all of the bad loans will be weeded out, one way or the other, and lending will begin again. Then, when the market equals out, investors will begin testing the water again, finally jumping back in spurred by lower energy costs, especially oil. The global economy is in a slow down, and if our's continues to cool, even OPEC isn't stupid enough to add to the problem by allowing oil prices to soar, and even if they are, Saudi Arabia has already shown they will go against OPEC to serve their needs, and they need a strong global economy.
Don't get me wrong. As I said, I am against the bailout, but we are in for some pain. Hopefully, that pain will spur us to throw out the bums that caused this.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
RESTLESS... A friend of
September 30, 2008 - 22:03 ET by Clear thinkerRESTLESS...
A friend of mine who is a builder, went to the bank this morning to see about a 7 figure loan. The bank he went to is fairly local, but it's secret to success has always been the same... they only make smart loans. Anyway, as he sat down with the loan officer he jokingly mentioned that he's expecting a hard time getting the loan, then the loan officer told him "if everything checks out there should be no problem because their bank was flush with cash". He (loan officer) also told him that the past few business days has been excellent for them because people with large accounts have been closing their accounts at Wachovia and switching to his bank. He even told my friend to tell others in the building industry that they are doing a brisk loan business and would love their business.
It sounds to me like some bad weeds are being pulled up, and allowing the stronger plants to survive. If you know what I mean.
Palin Is Caught And Her Career Is Over!
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
A Definite Recession
September 30, 2008 - 22:08 ET by PopularTechNo there has to be some form of a recession but the length is the key. I suspect it will be longer 12-18 months. In this case the pain is a good thing as we should pay down debt and start saving again.
Pop,
September 30, 2008 - 22:29 ET by RESTLESS 1Three months is a little optimistic. I would put it at 6-8 months personally, for two reasons. One is that stonger banks will continue lending as in Clear's example above.
The second is that I definitely see oil prices dropping. As I said, Saudi Arabia went against Opec's decision to cut supply for two reasons, to meet their customer's demands, and they see a global slowdown of the economy. OPEC wants oil to stay at around $100.00 a barrel, but the Saudis like the $70.00-80.00 range better and fear that if oil is too high, that an economic collapse could send oil prices into the crapper. Add to that that IIRC, the Saudi cartel will be heading OPEC next year.
IMO, nothing spurs an economy faster than low energy costs, save lower taxes.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
PT, Ct, R1, et al.
September 30, 2008 - 22:46 ET by R D HelmIf congress moves NOW to eliminate the capital gains tax and reduces the corporate tax rate to 10%, or less, there doesn't even have to be a recession.
A recession is preventable.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it is what it is.
-Dave
Fear makes people do weird things....it makes their brains stop working. - Dave Ramsey
My troll fuse length today: 0.000mm
I agree RD
September 30, 2008 - 22:54 ET by RESTLESS 1But like you said, it ain't gonna happen, so I don't figure it into my equation.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Restless1,
October 1, 2008 - 08:04 ET by Indiana JoeSpeaking for myself, yeah, I guess you're reading me wrong. All I was saying is I think the bail-out is bad, and I'm glad it failed. Hell, were still not sure they won't ram something through that might be worse.
But I have no illusions about consequences. I just think we'll be better off in the long run if this is allowed to resolve itself according to economic principles rather than government meddling. There's going to be a price to pay, but it won't be as bad as this bill would have been, IMO.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
IJ
October 1, 2008 - 10:08 ET by RESTLESS 1I figured as much, and obviously, I agree with you.
"This liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Plenty of Economists are against the Bailout
September 30, 2008 - 21:12 ET by PopularTech192 Economists Sign a Letter Against Paulson's Plan
A Bailout We Don't Need (James K. Galbraith, Ph.D. Economics)
An Open Letter to Congress on the $700B Paulson Bailout Plan (Michael Shedlock, Investment Advisor)
Bailouts will lead to rough economic ride (Ron Paul, Economics Scholar)
Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer (Jeffrey Miron, Ph.D. Economics, MIT)
Can Congress Fix A Problem It Caused? (Thomas Sowell, Ph.D. Economics)
Can the Rescue Plan Fix the US Economy? (Frank Shostak, Ph.D. Economics)
Conservatives Should Oppose Corporate Welfare (Robert Murphy, Ph.D. Economics)
Credit Is Flowing, Sky Is Not Falling, Don’t Panic (Robert Higgs, Ph.D. Economics)
Doing Something? (John Berlau, B.S. Economics, Director Center for Entrepreneurship)
Don't Bail Them Out (Lew Rockwell, Economist)
How to Avoid Another Depression (Mark Thornton, Ph.D. Economics)
In Financial Food Chains, Little Guys Can’t Win (Ben Stein, B.S. Economics)
No bailout necessary (Earl Thompson, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
No Bailouts: Let the Hammer Fall (Johnnie B. Byrd, B.S. Business Administration)
Not Buying It (Steven Landsburg, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
Republicans on the Left and Democrats on the Right (Ivan Eland, M.B.A. Applied Economics)
Scaring Us to Death (Walter E. Williams, Ph.D. Professor of Economics)
The Great Bank Robbery of 2008 (Robert Murphy, Ph.D. Economics)
The Idiocy of Wall Street: Applauding Its Own Demise (Don A Rich, Professor of Economics)
The Rescue Package Will Delay Recovery (Frank Shostak Ph.D. Economics)
U.S. government should bail out of bailouts (Craig R. Smith, CEO Swiss America Trading Corporation)
U.S. on reverse socialism path (Ronald Solberg, Ph.D. Economics)
Wall Street Socialism (Alvaro Vargas Llosa, M.A. Economics)
Why Paulson is wrong (Luigi Zingales, Ph.D. Economics)
PT,
October 1, 2008 - 01:48 ET by HillbillyKingI hope common sense prevails, hell even the Canadians can see the truth!
But if not, at least you and I know to hedge our bets and
Buy more guns and ammo! :-}
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
Don Marquis 1878-1937
You can never have enough ammunition!
October 1, 2008 - 02:36 ET by PopularTech...or so they say.
Hey PT!!!
October 1, 2008 - 02:46 ET by TheSterI got a rifle, a plane, and some beer...
...you bring the ammo...WE'RE GOIN' WOLF HUNTIN' !!!
YEEEE-HAAAA!!!!
Ster.
"Buy more guns and ammo!"
October 1, 2008 - 08:08 ET by Indiana JoeHow will multiple copies of a magazine help? ;^)
(yeah, I know, "magazine" has another meaning. Can't help that.)
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
HA! The Indiana Jester
October 1, 2008 - 16:15 ET by HillbillyKingstrikes again! Good one Joe!
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
Don Marquis 1878-1937
The Question Everyone Should Be Asking
September 30, 2008 - 21:15 ET by PopularTechIf you had to put your own life savings up to pay for it would you sign the Paulson Plan?
Hell no!
September 30, 2008 - 21:18 ET by BlondeI would, however, give the $2,500 for each of the three adults in my home....if I knew they'd drop capital gains taxes, and NEVER, EVER bother us with such idiocy ever again.
Small price to pay.
Cash on the barrelhead. Now. Not later.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Agreed
October 1, 2008 - 02:40 ET by PopularTechThough I probably would not no matter what they bundled with it. They need to make a new bill and address the market mechanisms that are causing the problems as well as removing things like capital gains.
Bailout failure = everything fine, eh?
September 30, 2008 - 21:19 ET by air conservativeThis guy's premise is laughable. The market is up today because the bailout bill failed?! I guess it had nothing to do with the president giving a speech this morning to try and inspire the markets, insisting that there would be a bill passed this week. Funny how the market wasn't plunging yesterday until AFTER the bill fell apart. Funny how the Asian markets didn't lose 5% of the value until AFTER the bill fell apart.
Sure, no need to intervene. At today's pace, the market should be up 1500 points by Friday. Never mind the credit freeze and all the car dealerships that have closed because no one can qualify for a loan.
Last time Rush Limbaugh was this confident in downplaying an impending disaster, he was claiming that the media was overhyping the dangers of hurricane Katrina a day before it hit, arguing bizarrely that they were doing so because New Orleans was primarily black -- not because it was shaping up to be a category four hurricane. That's when I quit listening to anything he's had to say.
Car Dealers Closing? Try Kaizen Works - Bigger Cup Holders Fail
September 30, 2008 - 21:29 ET by PopularTechFunny how I have seen a Chevy and Ford dealership close in the last year while Toyota and Honda both built brand new dealerships. Couldn't be they make a better more reliable product must be the loans. American automakers suck and still don't get it. The Japanese do and have for years. I have no remorse for bad decisions. Kaizen works not bigger cup holders.
http://money.cnn.com...
September 30, 2008 - 21:33 ET by air conservativehttp://money.cnn.com...
It says "Detroit" not Japan
September 30, 2008 - 21:48 ET by PopularTechWhen Detroit learns how to make a Toyota Corolla or a Honda Civic they might figure out how to turn their businesses around. Detroit still doesn't get it while Toyota releases their Scion line and Honda their Fit. Not to mention capitalizing on the loony liberal left and their Hybrids.
No do I not miss the days of fixing my car constantly. Instead I am driving around in my Honda with 185,000 miles on it.
PT
October 1, 2008 - 01:57 ET by MrShyWow, 185,000 ???
Yeah, we definitely can hang our heads in shame over our automobile industry and ingenuity.
I had a nice '95 Acura Integra (made by Honda) for 9 years, and it never gave me any serious problems. The problem I had was my ex sis-in-law totalling it. :p
NOW PLAYING:
Governor Palin Get Your Gun
Fix Or Repair Daily
September 30, 2008 - 21:38 ET by Free StinkerPerhaps, some day, Ford and GM will make cars I want to buy.
Until then I'll stick with Honda.
Governor Palin - She is the Real Deal !
Today maybe your day
September 30, 2008 - 21:43 ET by general companyFord and Dodge both make good vehicals. Mabe you should go have a look. I own several Dodges and would put their maint records against anyones, plus they are better looking.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
IIRC....about $9K
September 30, 2008 - 21:45 ET by BlondeOf the price of each Ford is to fund their union workers & their pension plans.
Nice, huh?
My t-bird is the first and last Ford I'll ever own.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Yea, this is the bigger
September 30, 2008 - 22:07 ET by general companyYea, this is the bigger problem with US auto makers. Seems the only one who cant afford to build cars in the US is the US. So when folks complain about American cars not being up to snuff, just remember. Benz, Nisson, Yota's, Honda, Kia's, Mazda's, Lexus, and many more are built here, not there. While many of "ours" are built there not here.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
My t-bird is the first and last Ford I'll ever own.
September 30, 2008 - 23:01 ET by R D HelmGee, thanks, J.
-Dave
Fear makes people do weird things....it makes their brains stop working. - Dave Ramsey
My troll fuse length today: 0.000mm
Sorry, Dave
September 30, 2008 - 23:09 ET by BlondeI'm still looking at that Jag.
With this market all topsy, I suspect I just may be able to steal it....trouble is, should I? The bird hasn't depreciated in the three years I've had it, not so much the Jaguars.
What to do?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
B,
October 1, 2008 - 08:19 ET by Indiana Joe"The bird hasn't depreciated in the three years I've had it"
Well, that sounds pretty good. I would think if it wasn't reliable, it would depreciate faster. What makes it "the last Ford" you'll ever own? Understand, I think when someone like Ford goes into a market that isn't their strong suit (semi-"exotics," like the T-bird), it can get iffy. But Ford's major line-up is much better than their deserved reputation for their past debacles.
I worked at a Ford dealership in the early '70s, and they built junk. It didn't get any better for a long time. But I think the current models have quite a bit going for them. I'm driving an '06 Escape now, and I love it. A peppy V-6, gets 24mpg doing 75-80, pulls my camper, handles well, holds a lot. I've only had it since January, so we'll see. But I think I did pretty good for the money.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
IJ
October 1, 2008 - 08:32 ET by BlondeI have absoltuely no complaints about the t-bird. It's a great little car, comfy (although men bang their head getting in and out, longer torsos, I guess), gets decent mileage for a V8, and as I said, it's kept its value. I've got a little over 30K on it after three years, only one issue with fuel injectors.
But other than the bird, I think their styling is pretty ugly. There are lots of other beautiful cars on the road with a much better reputation.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
See, I love the new
October 1, 2008 - 17:23 ET by Indiana JoeSee, I love the new Mustangs. After almost 40 frickin' years, they finally corrected screwing up one of the most beautiful American cars ever, IMO. Of course, they basically dusted off the '69 blue-prints to do it, LOL.
And I looked at the Fusion at first, pretty sharp. But it can't tow. The 500/Taurus or whatever they call it is hideous, and they've gone chrome-crazy for some reason, so I can't argue with you much about that. Been a Ford man for years. Had a couple Hondas, they are good cars, no argument.
But, reliability and value, I contend, is much better among American cars than in years past, when it was shameful to non-existent. That's really all I meant.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
Kaizen will never work as
September 30, 2008 - 21:51 ET by Clear thinkerKaizen will never work as long as our major U.S. auto makers have unions calling the shots. I personally helped to introduce Kaizen to my company years ago. It was a long hard struggle, but we managed to finally get to about 85% Kaizen. Since I no longer own the company the new owners pretty much scrapped it. However, I missed something along the way, because they have increased production and lowered cost without it. The margins are better than when we used Kaizen, so who knows. I'm just glad I live my own schedule now.
Palin Is Caught And Her Career Is Over!
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
I agree about Unions
September 30, 2008 - 22:05 ET by PopularTechUnions are nothing more then mob rule. They breed incompetence and severly cripple businesses.
BTW I think Toyota is learning this the hard way with the few bumps they have been having with U.S. production.
You can increase production and lower cost by lowering quality which is not exactly Kaizen. As lower quality would not be considered 'good change'.
Kaizen is about constant
September 30, 2008 - 22:13 ET by Clear thinkerKaizen is about constant improvement and lowering quality goes against the idea of constant improvement. So I don't understand your last comment. But that's ok, I'm still pissed off at you.
Palin Is Caught And Her Career Is Over!
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Kaizen vs. Easy Money
September 30, 2008 - 23:30 ET by PopularTechI was commenting in reply to this statement:
"However, I missed something along the way, because they have increased production and lowered cost without it. The margins are better than when we used Kaizen, so who knows."
I was commenting on how their "improvements" may actually be worse (by lowering quality) long term than Kaizen even though they make short term monetary gain. I took your comment as implying that they were running it better without Kaizen.
This is what I believe the U.S. auto industry has done to a large extent sacrifice quality for short term profits and it is starting to fall apart.
PT,
October 1, 2008 - 09:25 ET by Indiana JoeYour comment about unions caught my eye. A couple things there. Full-disclosure: I'm a union steelworker, in a major steel-making area, whose father was a union steelworker and whose mother is surviving on what's left of Dad's pension from Bethlehem/ISG/Mittal/Arcelor-Mittal Steel (that changes with each company name-change). And Dad would agree with the following assessment:
I agree that unions have caused a lot of trouble for businesses. Outrageous terms were agreed to, and those have crippled a lot of businesses, most notable heavy-manufacturing, and specifically the auto industry.
Union leadership is very similar to our politicians. They're more concerned with feathering their own beds, maintaining their own power, and handing out favors to friends and family than they are about actually serving those who elected them. The corruption and back-door dealing are unconscienable, unbelievable, and firmly entrenched.
That being said, however, unions do serve a purpose. I've seen how the company will try to twist the contract language to gain a benefit over workers, even to the point of denying a plain payment that may only amount to $6.00 per employee (OT meal-allowance, for instance). Multiplied by thousands of employees, that can be a big chunk of change to the company. I understand why they do it. That's their job, minimize costs, maximize profits. I don't take it personally, like a lot of my co-workers do.
But, my priorities mirror the company's. I want to get the most I can for the skills and labor I provide them. Does that make me "greedier" than the company? I don't see how. While the old idea of "sweat-shops" is nothing I fear returning, I am convinced that my income would be severely reduced if I didn't have the power to bargain collectively with the company, via my union.
I also understand the concept of not "killing the goose that lays the golden eggs." The error of that is amply illustrated by the auto workers union. But I would point out that the auto companies made these agreements. Turns out that was a horrible decision, and they're now suffering the consequences. But to ignore the companies' part in the debacle is the same as ignoring the FM's part in creating the housing crisis, and expecting the government to fix it for them. And I know you're against that. In the same vein, the Big 3 made their bed, by going along with outrageous demands from the union. Sure, the workers got greedy, but the company agreed and signed a contract. They can't just walk away from it because it was a mistake.
To sum up, while I agree that unions have a lot of bad aspects in their effects on the real world, they're not universally a bad thing, and the workers need to have someone protecting their interests. I do really loathe my union in a lot of ways. I consider myself and my fellow workers to be a mere rope in a tug-of-war between the union and the company, neither of them too concerned about us as people. That's fine for the company, my welfare isn't their business (I'm amazed at how many people think it should be!). The companies that deal with unions are usually pretty sharp about not signing contracts that can cripple them, but if they do, they must shoulder their share of the blame for doing so. All I'm trying to do is look out for what's best for me, just like everyone else.
Blonde and others here have heard me make similar points before.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
Unions were needed.
October 1, 2008 - 17:25 ET by HillbillyKingBeing a West Virginian with a family connection to the coal bidness, I agree with your assessment of Unions IJ.
Here's a quick look at some of the struggles people in WV faced in achieving Union status in the mines;
The "Bull Moose Special"
The Battle of Blair Mountain
For a more detailed explaination of the circumstances surrounding the UMW's efforts in WV this is a great book;
When Miners March
I met the author Mr. Blizzard years ago and the mans knowledge on the subject was enormous.
I mention the UMWs efforts in WV to illustrate the necessity of the union movement here in the U.S. Let there be no doubt that the working conditions enjoyed by just about everyone in America today is due in part to the union movements that have taken place here in the last 150 years.
Having said that, I believe that most unions today are victims of their own success. A sense of entitlement has penetrated them to the point that they are actually more harmful, than helpful to their members.
Here in WV, a number of coal mines are non-union and they are some of the most productive mines in the state. I hope the UMW and others take notice of that and adjust their strategy accordingly or they will end up bargining themselves right out of existence.
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
Don Marquis 1878-1937
Unions the necessary evil
October 1, 2008 - 19:40 ET by PopularTechWell that is how I see it anyway. I understand why they exist and feel they have a right to exist just like a business has a right to hire non-union workers. I disagree with the mob mentality and intimidation tactics I've seen taken when a union does not get their way outside of going on strike.
Personally I have worked in the private sector my whole life and have never been a part of a union. I have worked in businesses with unions and it was next to impossible to work with those I have dealt with. Well I could just do all the work myself or pay them fees outside of any chance of turning a profit.
There are also many different unions, some of which have much more rational approaches and requests.
Unions have a tendency to protect incompetent workers, require extortion fees (dues) and make unrealistic demands. It doesn't matter if the companies profits are up they still want raises. Where does the money come from? I guess the big 3 auto worker unions are finding out the hard way.
You have a right to look out for what is best for you but people need to think what is best for them long term. I don't believe Greed is a problem on either side.
CT,
October 1, 2008 - 08:26 ET by Indiana JoeIf I may make so bold, I think PT is saying that upping production while lowering cost is possible if quality suffers. You had mentioned that the new owners had scrapped Kaizen. So the assumption I would make is that they also scrapped the "constant improvement" aspect of it. In that context, I think PT's comment makes more sense.
Btw, what the hell is "Kaizen?" Got a link? I get the general idea, a business philosophy or plan, but I've never heard that word before.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - H. Poincaré
You shouldn't have
September 30, 2008 - 21:41 ET by ApacheYou shouldn't have used car dealerships to make your point. Plenty will fail and for good reason and need to. You'll get more sympathy for lawyers. I agree the market isn't the indicator to watch. But the cure on the table is worse than the disease.
"Never mind the credit
October 1, 2008 - 01:58 ET by ckc1227"I guess it had nothing to do with the president giving a speech this
morning to try and inspire the markets, insisting that there would be a
bill passed this week."
They were insisting the bill would pass yesterday too, but the market was down 400 before the vote ever took place.
"Never mind the credit freeze and all the car dealerships that have closed because no one can qualify for a loan."
Yeah, that's why they failed, lol. The "credit freeze". Meanwhile, my neighbor financed a new car this past Friday. Guess that dealership didn't know about the credit freeze. Also got 2 credit card offers in the mail today, and Citibank just donated a million dollars to La raza. I guess they don't know a credit freeze is on either.
How's the weather in fantasyland? I hope it's nice.
I've seen this same scenario
September 30, 2008 - 21:33 ET by cocodrieI've seen this same scenario in different settings over the years. The government creates a huge problem by meddling in affairs that are none of its business. Then they fix the damage beyond repair with a lot of our money.
cocodrie
September 30, 2008 - 22:09 ET by BlondeThat's about the most succinct description I've seen for everything that is wrong with government intervention.
Most particularly in this instance of "financial panic".
Nicely stated!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
It's frustrating to see it
September 30, 2008 - 23:03 ET by cocodrieIt's frustrating to see it happen over and over and wonder why nothing changes.
What's worse here is they
October 1, 2008 - 07:37 ET by dscottWhat's worse here is they are porking up the bill yet again to lure some people into voting for it. In fact the first bill had other provisions having nothing to do with the actual credit crisis.
The tax plan passed the Senate last week on a 93-2 vote. It included AMT relief, $8 billion in tax relief for those hit by natural disasters in the Midwest, Texas and Louisiana, and some $78 billion in renewable energy incentives and extensions of expiring tax breaks. All told, it would cost about $112 billion over five years.
In a compromise worked out with Republicans, the bill does not pay for the AMT and disaster provisions, but does have revenue offsets for part of the energy and extension measures.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431101,00.html
These people just don't get it, keep it simple and stay on topic. This second bill should be voted down by the House as well and then strip it to the bare minimum. What they are attempting to do is put a gun to our heads saying sign it or die. I say crap on them.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
Here's the real cause of
October 1, 2008 - 10:48 ET by NorthCoasterHere's the real cause of this crisis presented with no hyperbole.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDI1MzA0ZDBjODUyYTE5NTBiOWI0OGM0YTM5NWQxMmY=
"Just the facts Mam"
P.J. Gladnick- In the deep caca of lameness,ridiculous
October 1, 2008 - 19:09 ET by3 surefire signs a NB contributer's contribution is BS:
1. The commenters change the subject. In this case, to how bad the bailout is.
2. The commenters go way off in a tangent to change the subject. In this case, talk of t-birds and other cars.
3. Even conservative commenters contradict your point* and call it "laughable" (air conservative)
*Gladnick's point (w/ a "slight" exaggeration for emphasis): because the Dow recovered 63% of the previous day's losses happy days are here again. Gladnick's ommission of a major reason for the 2/3 comeback- expectations of passage of a "rescue" plan, emphasizes the lameness and silliness of his article/point.
Abe... Can you show us
October 1, 2008 - 19:15 ET by Clear thinkerAbe...
Can you show us the proof that the rally was due to "expectations of passage of rescue plan? I have heard a few pundits say this, but nobody else!
Palin Is Caught And Her Career Is Over!
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
Clear thinker, OK I did some of your homework for you.
October 1, 2008 - 22:33 ET by1st - There's the AP article quoted by Gladnick in this article: "Wall Street snapped back Tuesday after its biggest sell-off in years
amid growing expectations that lawmakers will salvage a $700 billion
rescue plan for the financial sector.
Then there's these news articles. Do some Googling yourself. You'll find more.
Clear thinker, I did not state that the "rally was due to "expectations of passage of rescue plan"
I wrote "a major reason for the 2/3 comeback". I specifically did not write "the reason" because another major reason was bargain hunters. There can be more than 1 major reason for an event.
LMAO, CT, that link was
October 2, 2008 - 07:53 ET by dscottLMAO, CT, that link was funny. Hey we could spin this of course, Sarah, a role model of hope for the cosmetically disabled.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.