CNN on Monday featured a fifth grade student who is refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance in his classroom until gays and lesbians have equal rights.
Not surprisingly, he was treated with far greater respect by the cable news network than Tea Party and town hall meeting protesters were earlier in the year.
The boy and his father appeared on CNN's "American Morning," and John Roberts began the segment:
A 10-year-old boy from Arkansas is taking a stand by sitting down. Will Philips is refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag in his fifth grade classroom until there really is, as the pledge says, liberty and justice for all. He says until gays and lesbians have equal rights.
During the interview, the boy's father accurately noted, "Well, actually before we heard from anybody, my first thought was oh, my God, this is the type of thing you see on CNN" (video embedded below the fold with transcript, h/t NBer SkipperMLM):
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN: The president told the students the more freely information flows the stronger society becomes. He is now in Beijing to meet with China's president.
A 10-year-old boy from Arkansas is taking a stand by sitting down. Will Philips is refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag in his fifth grade classroom until there really is, as the pledge says, liberty and justice for all. He says until gays and lesbians have equal rights.
Joining us now in an exclusive interview are Will Phillips and his father, Jay. They're in West Fork, Arkansas this morning. Will and Jay, good to see you this morning. Thanks very much for being with us. And Will, let me ask you first of all, when did you decide that you weren't going to stand up and recite the pledge?
WILL PHILLIPS, WONT SAY PLEDGE UNTIL GAYS HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS: I decided that I was going to do that the weekend before when I did it. I was analyzing the meanings of it because I want to be a lawyer.
ROBERTS: All right. So what did you decide in analyzing the meanings of it that caused you not to stand up and recite the pledge?
WILL PHILLIPS: Well, I looked at the end and it said "with liberty and justice for all." And there really isn't liberty and justice for all. There's -- gays and lesbians can't marry. There's still a lot of racism and sexism in the world, yes.
ROBERTS: All right. So you think that the country isn't living up to the ideals of the pledge and you took it upon yourself to sit down and not recite the pledge of allegiance until the country comes in line to embody the ideals that are embodied in the pledge?
WILL PHILLIPS: Yes.
ROBERTS: All right. So, your teacher, who is a substitute teacher at the time, was giving you grief about not standing up. This went on for a few days. What did you eventually say to that teacher?
WILL PHILLIPS: I eventually very solemnly with a little bit of malice in my voice said, "Ma'am, with all due respect, you can go jump off a bridge."
ROBERTS: You said, solemnly, with a little bit of malice in your voice, maybe you can go jump off a bridge. And we saw your dad, Jay, put his face in his hands just then. That obviously, earned him a trip to the principal's office. And you were contacted after that, what did you think when you heard what was going on there at school?
JAY PHILLIPS, FATHER OF WILL PHILLIPS: My initial response was measured and considered, thoughtful and was -- he's dead. That's it. He's doomed. However, when I got home and I talked to him, the more I heard from him, the more it became apparent that this wasn't a typical act of juvenile delinquency. This was a very atypical act of juvenile delinquency.
He just made it clear that he sat for four days and took brunt of the criticism. And reminded her that it was his first amendment right and that he didn't have to stand or say the pledge. And on the fourth day, he lost his temper.
Now, he did apologize in writing to the teacher and we really want to emphasize, we have a wonderful school district, a wonderful town. This is a great community and that the teacher, in our opinion, was just trying to...
ROBERTS: Got you.
JAY PHILLIPS: ... to handle what probably to her seemed like a student who was trying to give the fill-in teacher a hard time.
ROBERTS: Got you. All right. Let's bring in Will here again. Will, why is this issue so important to you that you would commit as your dad said this atypical act of juvenile delinquency?
WILL PHILLIPS: Because I have many -- I've grown up with a lot of people and good friends with a lot of people that are gay and I really -- I think they should have the rights all people should. And I'm not going to swear that they do.
ROBERTS: So what's the reaction been from your fellow students at school to you not standing up for the pledge and the views that you hold about this issue?
WILL PHILLIPS: Not very good. They've taken from what I said an assumption that I'm gay and the halls and the cafeteria, I've been repeatedly called a gay wad.
ROBERTS: A gay wad. What's a gay wad?
WILL PHILLIPS: I really don't know. It's a discriminatory name for homosexuals.
ROBERTS: OK. All right. Well, Jay, were you prepared, this has obviously gone well beyond the school. This is the sort of thing as you know gains the attention of the national media, were you prepared for the type of reaction both positive and negative that your son's actions have precipitated?
JAY PHILLIPS: Well, actually before we heard from anybody, my first thought was oh, my God, this is the type of thing you see on CNN. And I sat down and talked to him and I said, you know, you realize there's potentially severe ramifications to this.
And we ran through everything and his words to me were that if there was a chance to talk to the local newspaper or something like that, that he wanted -- he saw it as an opportunity to raise awareness and for education and he was very, very clear in that he felt that just because he's 10 years old doesn't mean he doesn't have opinions...
ROBERTS: Right.
JAY PHILLIPS: It doesn't mean he doesn't have rights and doesn't mean that he can't make a difference.
ROBERTS: He does seem to have very strong opinions we should say and obviously they are very reasoned out. We should say that he's an extraordinarily bright child. He skipped the fourth grade, went right from the third grade to the fifth grade.
But Will, as we prepare to leave you here, what will it take for you to stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance? And I ask this question based on what we saw in the off year election just a couple of weeks ago. Same-sex marriage initiative was put to the test, put to the voters in the state of Maine. And every state across the nation where it has been put through the voters, it has gone down to defeat.
So, the Democratic process is taking place here, it seems to be something that voters at large do not support. So what will it take for you to return to saying the pledge?
WILL PHILLIPS: For there could truly be liberty and justice for all.
ROBERTS: And what does that entail?
WILL PHILLIPS: That entails everyone being able to marry.
ROBERTS: All right. Will Phillips, Jay Phillips, great to see you this morning. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll keep watching the story. It's certainly an interesting one.
ROBERTS: Wow. He's got his arguments down.
CHETRY: He does. He's a really, really well spoken little kid.
ROBERTS: He is and he is certainly impassioned about this as well.
CHETRY: He is.
"Well, actually before we heard from anybody, my first thought was oh, my God, this is the type of thing you see on CNN."
Truer words may never have been spoken.
Despite all its pretense of being an impartial, neutral network compared to MSNBC, the advocacy of CNN comes through in almost every story it does.
For many months this year, CNN excoriated regular citizens who had the temerity to protest healthcare reform and the expanding size of government at Tea Parties and town hall meetings across the fruited plain.
Now, a singular fifth grader is being lauded for mounting a protest of his own.
Why the disparity in treatment for those willing to stand up for what they believe in?
That said, I applaud what this young boy is doing.
I just wish media would praise ALL who stand up for what they believe in and NOT just those standing for what so-called journalists believe in.
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Well GOOD
November 16, 2009 - 10:56 ET by DelsaMay the brain dead 10 year old,
Forever Hold His Tongue !
1) He needs to be taught
November 16, 2009 - 12:28 ET by notonmywatch1) He needs to be taught what liberty & justice mean. They mean specific things, not whatever you want them to.
2) Homos are actually OVER-represented.
3) what about people in Seattle who want to marry horses? Why doesn't it apply to them?
___________________________________________________________
Graphical conservative commentary - animations & pictures for posting on forums: http://ubama.org/chu...
what about people in
November 16, 2009 - 16:14 ET by MightyMouthwhat about people in Seattle who want to marry horses? Why doesn't it apply to them?
O gee I can't resist this:
Brings new meaning to the term "Animal Husbandry"!
"The bureaucracy is growing to meet the needs of the growing bureaucracy"
Fortunately...
November 16, 2009 - 16:21 ET by RukusHorses are smart and would just say neigh. ; )
Gary
Old media species: Moonbat-a-saurus-rex. Getting more endangered by the day.
he must be joking
November 16, 2009 - 11:00 ET by spepperhe must be joking-- gays and lesbian don't have equal rights? Who is he kidding? They RUN things like CNN for crying out loud!
Gays can already get
November 17, 2009 - 18:19 ET by ApacheGays can already get married. But to the opposite sex. The government can't legally stop someone from getting married to the opposite sex just because they are gay. So pro-marriage gays (It seems not all gays are pro-gay marriage) are not fighting for "equal rights" they are fighting for special rights. They want the state to sanction their choice in sex partners. I think they just want the nanny state to give a special seal of approval for their lifestyle maybe because their parents don't or whatever. As if that's the reason the nanny state is involved in marriage at all. The actual reason it to encourage the creation of more citizens and promote a safe and natural atmosphere to raise them. No guarantee and of course and yes it is too easy to divorce with no stigma attached now. So a wrecking ball is going through the whole process anyway. If you can argue that the state should recognize marriage as simply a union of sex partners then an even better argument is to get government out of the marriage business altogether. I'm not suggesting that, but it is a better argument than the one for gay marriage. I don't care about emotional or religious arguments on either side of the issue because the government can't really use those arguments anyway. I would pay more attention to the arguments of gay marriage proponents if they would get a clue, show a little respect for other opinions, and stop pretending its about "equal rights".
What rights?
November 16, 2009 - 11:00 ET by Dragonsbreathdo normal people have that gays do not?
Right now they have more rights than most other people. If you touch one it is a hate crime, if you say you do not like their choice then you are discriminating against them.
I think this kid should just learn to read and think for himself for once. Which brings up the question where does a kid that age learn about sex? The local NAMBULA?
"While Americans died at Fort Hood, Obama had a good laugh..."
Maybe if someone showed
November 16, 2009 - 11:02 ET by Willis_Leon_JohnsonMaybe if someone showed this wonderous child the episode of Red Skelton reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, this child genius would begin to get a clue that life in this country does not depend solely on the fantasies of 10 year old immature children.
WHO decided the idle prattlings of a 5th grader was 'newsworthy' in the first place?
"no matter how low you set the bar, liberals can never quite measure up." -Me
http://gjresult.com
WHO decided the idle prattlings...
November 16, 2009 - 11:25 ET by CCsteelcityYou have to remember what "media" programming channel your talking about here.
"The bottom line is that the idea that government bureaucrats have enough knowledge to manage an economy well is the height of conceit." - Friedrich Hayek
Why doesn't the kid just
November 16, 2009 - 11:03 ET by motherbeltWhy doesn't the kid just say he won't say the Pledge until the US approves same-sex "marriage"?
That's what it comes down to.
"I eventually very solemnly
November 16, 2009 - 11:03 ET by kg"I eventually very solemnly with a little bit of malice in my voice
said, "Ma'am, with all due respect, you can go jump off a bridge."
All 10 year olds talk this way, or so the media wants us to believe.
"DumbAssity of Dope"
Vote
November 16, 2009 - 11:06 ET by sevenHis vote doesn't matter. he has no voting rights and gays do. Gays can get a vote to change marriage. If not, the majority prevails. He is not old enough to vote. Wonder why? He should protest that. And he can't buy beer.
spare me !
November 16, 2009 - 11:09 ET by rowdygirlSo he's been coached to be concerned for gays, but hasn't been taught about respect for authority? He tells a teacher to jump off a bridge and we're supposed to be impressed? I'm sure if this kid (and his dad) was really that smart he would know that liberty does NOT equal freedom. If we all had freedom, we would do anything and everything we wanted. That's the difference on that point. Justice? Where does justice fit into the gay marriage argument?
Another example of a kid being coached by a media craving adult.
"What's a gay wad?"
November 16, 2009 - 11:10 ET by SickofLibsHere's nine examples, all in a row.
The kid's got a point.
November 16, 2009 - 11:13 ET by FreakyBoyThe kid's got a point. It's been really difficult to find a good interior designer since the gay internment camps.
Internment camps---
November 16, 2009 - 22:05 ET by matthewdeanNow that was funny, I don't care who you are.
MD
"There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress."
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
BREAKING NEWS!!!
November 18, 2009 - 14:16 ET by BO STINKSAccording to new federal law just passed unanimously by all of the House: ALL HOMOSEXUALS WILL NOW SIT AT THE BACK OF ALL PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. IN ADDITION: ALL HOMOSEXUALS MUST EAT IN THEIR ASSIGNED SECTIONS OF ALL RESTAURANTS. ALSO, HOMOSEXUALS MUST USE ONLY THE DRINKING FOUNTAINS ASSIGNED TO THEM.
Wow, discrimination against the homos is now federally mandated! sarc/off
How dare these degenerates make such a mockery of actual bigotry and discrimination? Shame on them and those who support them. Minorities should be outraged and voice their outrage when they vote!
"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the Plain Meaning of Words!" ~Sam Adams
I smell a baloon boy hoax.
November 16, 2009 - 11:14 ET by superconNo little kid talks or thinks like that. He is being used as a propaganda tool by his parents and it is disgusting. How did this come to CNN's attention I would like to know...?
It's a scam.
" if Republicans are able to stop Barack Obama on health care, 'it will be his Waterloo, it will break him...." -Sen. Jim DeMint
Condom Boy Hoax
November 16, 2009 - 11:16 ET by Sergeant ROCKI think you are correct!
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
It's a scam. I thought
November 16, 2009 - 22:17 ET by mamabearIt's a scam.
I thought it was unfair to automatically dismiss town hall protesters as astroturf if there wasn't any proof.
But it's okay to accuse a little boy of being a fake without proof if you disagree with him.
Nice.
No one in the media has
November 17, 2009 - 08:34 ET by Dan The Man 2No one in the media has accused the boy, we have brought up some logical ideas here. He is a 10 year old and he worries about homosexuals having equal rights. I think there should be discussion, I think the boy should have been questioned .. in fact teh boy should be in a debate about his beliefs.
"Neutral" CNN
November 16, 2009 - 11:27 ET by iveseenitallI just read a column concerning Lou Dobbs. The writer stated that Fox is the "conservative" station and MSNBC is the "liberal" station, so CNN got rid of Dobbs in order to be the "neutral" station. This story proves it. Riiiiight!
P.S. Using children to push a political agenda is despicable. Teachers also do it all the time. Disgusting!
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Publicity stunt. Look at me.
November 16, 2009 - 11:18 ET by Red JeepPublicity stunt. Look at me. Look at me.
interview before
November 16, 2009 - 11:18 ET by TjexciteBefore this interview they had a piece of patriots or extremists militias, those guy would stand for the pledge at a drop of a hat and some how that bad.
This is truly despicable
November 16, 2009 - 11:19 ET by FuzzlenutterThe Left's use of their own children as propaganda
tools is really getting out of control. I mean, what's next? Is this father going to go out and hire a male prostitute for his 10 year-old son's first time and then want him to go back on CNN to describe the "natural" and "beautiful" experience to their audience of 20? I wouldn't doubt it for a second...
Why do thoses in the media
November 16, 2009 - 11:22 ET by SeashellWhy do those in the media never mention that Obama has said that he believes marriage should be between a man and a woman?????
And I've noticed that they
November 16, 2009 - 11:34 ET by motherbeltAnd I've noticed that they never ask him about it in a public forum, either. It's as if it has nothing to do with him.
Like he never even said it.
November 16, 2009 - 12:16 ET by SeashellLike he never even said it.
Bamster's Crotch-Salute
November 16, 2009 - 11:27 ET by slickwillie2001Perhaps this is also why the Bamster gives a "crotch-salute" during the playing of our national anthem, rather than placing his hand over his heart. Someone needs to ask him about this and clear it up.
Still Not Proud of His Country: http://www.moonbattery.com
I hope
November 16, 2009 - 11:32 ET by In Excesshe receives a detention every day he refuses to say the pledge.
On TV!
November 16, 2009 - 11:33 ET by jaywlNow, now folks, if this extremely bright, socialized, genius had said because of his Christian beliefs that gays will be cast into the fires of hell and told a twinkie teacher to f-off he would have been on CNN also. After he was expelled, his father investigated, his church and pastor excoriated (a Hannity favorite word) and the poor misguided child was grilled by one of CNN's best jerks, yes, he would be on CNN over and over and over.
"Journalism"??
November 16, 2009 - 11:36 ET by iveseenitallThis might be like the phony balloon-boy incident. The father looking for publicity. CNN's "professionalism" is in question here. How sad that "journalism" has come to this. Really--"liberals" getting involved in an elementary school dispute. Worse still, this may be right on their level. How sad for this once-great nation.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Please!
November 16, 2009 - 12:22 ET by DragonsbreathNever use the words CNN' and "professionalism"in the same sentence. Someone might be taking a drink and their life is in your hands....
"While Americans died at Fort Hood, Obama had a good laugh..."
The Danger
November 16, 2009 - 11:41 ET by KC MulvilleI'm not going to pledge allegiance until abortion is outlawed. I'm not going to pledge allegiance until schools stop giving out condoms. I'm not going to pledge allegiance until they ban the use of embryonic stem cells.
All that's happening here is that this well-spoken, impassioned, and "well-reasoned" ten-year old was never taught the lesson that a country is not his private moral domain. What it shows is that somebody should have taught this kid what true "tolerance" really means.
Now remember, CNN gave this kid airtime. They could have used that airtime to investigate Charlie Rangel, or discuss the implications of Obama's constant bowing, or an explanation of the impact of deficits. Instead, they chose this. They showed a relatively innocent 10 year old, the kind of spokesperson that no one wants to criticize. (Hey ... you don't think they selected this story because they could make a point from behind this kid's innocence, do you?)
And, we're all waiting breathlessly for comment by people who oppose gay marriage. <tick, tock, tick, tock>
For those who have never
November 16, 2009 - 12:01 ET by Willis_Leon_JohnsonFor those who have never heard, read, or seen the Red Skelton version of the Pledge Of Allegiance.
The Link: http://www.americanr...
The text:
"When I was
a small boy in Vincennes, Indiana, I heard, I think, one of the most
outstanding speeches I ever heard in my life. I think it compares with
the Sermon on the Mount,
Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, and
Socrates’ Speech to the Students.
We had just finished reciting the
Pledge of Allegiance, and he [Mr. Lasswell,
the Principal of Vincennes High School] called us all together, and he says,
“Uh, boys and girls, I have been listening to you recite the Pledge of
Allegiance all semester, and it seems that it has become monotonous to you. Or,
could it be, you do not understand the meaning of each word? If I may, I would
like to recite the pledge, and give you a definition for each word:
Now let me hear you recite the
Pledge of Allegiance:
Since I was a small boy, two states
have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of
Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said, "That is a
prayer" -- and that be eliminated from our schools, too?"
"no matter how low you set the bar, liberals can never quite measure up." -Me
http://gjresult.com
I had the honor...
November 16, 2009 - 16:03 ET by beauxdogof meeting and shaking Red Skelton's hand... and it was he who offered his hand and words to me.
Beauxdog
"Listening to you, I get the music. Gazing at you, I get the heat. Following you, I climb the mountains. I get excitement at your feet." Tommy - The Who (or is it the MSM?)
Willis... Glad you have
November 16, 2009 - 16:07 ET by bigtimerWillis...
Glad you have this here, saw it years ago, still have it saved.
Always great to read again.
I sure miss great patriotic entertainers like him.
'Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea'~Breitbart
Because the student was
November 16, 2009 - 12:01 ET by BuffNBoneBecause the student was occupying his seat during roll call he was marked "present" and thus advanced his lifelong goal of becoming a politician.
"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
BuffnBone... That was a
November 16, 2009 - 16:09 ET by bigtimerBuffnBone...
That was a great smack-down!
You've got me chucklin'.
'Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea'~Breitbart
First of all being gay or
November 16, 2009 - 12:08 ET by jdhawkFirst of all being gay or lesbian is a learned behavior. It isn't as some claim, genetic. If it were genetic, then there would be less and less gays and lesbians on the planet - they don't, by definition, procreate. Instead, although only a few percentage points of the population, their numbers seem to be on the rise.
So, it is a false notion that this has anything to do whatsoever with civil rights.
Having said the above, hey, if you want to be gay or lesbian, go for it. I really don't give a care. What I do care about is the attempt by militant gays and lesbians to bend the law to suit their particular kink.
Overwhelmingly, the body politic has voted down any and all gay and lesbian marriage laws. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Further, my view is this is just a slippery slope. Hey, why not marriage between men and little boys? Women and teenage boys? Why not? Isn't that what "liberty" is all about?
So far as this child is concerned, his "rights" are all about learning his three "R's" and not about protesting. If I was the principle of the school, he would be suspended until he could manage to say the Pledge of Alegiance with the rest of his class. So far as his father is concerned - he is derelict in his duties as a parent.
The Three R's
November 16, 2009 - 12:17 ET by Sergeant ROCKSome of the resident sodomite apologists here on NB would have you believe that 'rimming' is one of those R's.
You probably already know that homosexuality was considered a mental illness until around 1973 when homosexual activists eventually gained the numbers necessary in the APA to overturn that opinion. No medical evidence was presented to support that decision.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Am I to understand that
November 16, 2009 - 12:54 ET by Willis_Leon_JohnsonAm I to understand that your position has 'gay rights' on the same plane with 'globull worming...'scuse me, climate change' and all the other societal ills the leftist nutcases have dumped on the nation over the last 40 years?
"no matter how low you set the bar, liberals can never quite measure up." -Me
http://gjresult.com
sorry for the double post
November 16, 2009 - 13:17 ET by Willis_Leon_JohnsonOn the issue of genetically homosexual
November 16, 2009 - 12:58 ET by dmntd1First, has anyone noticed that the term 'homosexual' is now more of a slander than 'gay'? LOL ahhh... the lunacy of life....
Second, I do believe there are some homosexuals that are born that way. I also believe that the majority of them are not. I don't know if I'd call it a 'learned behavior', but probably, variously, a 'coping behavior' for some real or imagined sexual molestation (that's a harsher word that I care for there.... but it's the best my vocabulary will come up with right now), 'cry for attention' for not getting enough attention during their formative years, 'embodiment' of a self-esteem problem...
I also believe that it cannot be undone, once it has manifested, contrary to the Christian 'curer of homosexuality' school of thought.
When it was determined that it was genetic, they failed to answer the chicken-egg issue, as is normal in genetic and neuro-pathologies. Are the genes the same because they've adapted to his current attraction, or is the attraction the same because of the genetic makeup? Is it the chemical imbalance that causes depression, or is it an overwhelming feeling of sadness (or lack of self-worth) that causes depression, which causes the chemical imbalance. I imagine the only way we'll find that out is to wait until we're dead and able to ask God in person. Of course, at that point, I don't imagine we'll give a furry rat's butt either way....
WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare,
Believe what you want..
November 16, 2009 - 13:05 ET by Sergeant ROCK.. you are not 'born gay'. The 'gay gene' was a last hope of the homsexual activists. But, now that the human genome has been mapped - zero evidence has been presented to support the notion that you are born gay. It's a mental illness.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Genes aren't changed by
November 16, 2009 - 22:23 ET by mamabearGenes aren't changed by experience. Gene activation is, sometimes, by methylation, but you have the same genome no matter what happens to you in your life, barring exposure to mutagens.
The fixation on genes as the only possible way that sexual orientation could be NOT a matter of choice is just a result of ignorance about the way behavior and biology develop. People need to learn something about hormones!
Something can be biological
November 16, 2009 - 22:14 ET by mamabearSomething can be biological without being genetic.
Mamabear
November 16, 2009 - 22:21 ET by RESTLESS 1If only you were this strident in defending all of those unborn babies.
Speaking of, how about you answer this?
"If the man, with the power, can't keep it under control...some heads are gonna roll." -Judas Priest
Oh give me a break, I'm
November 16, 2009 - 22:36 ET by mamabearOh give me a break, I'm active on that thread and answering questions. I just answered yours.
Don't be one of those creepy people who follow liberals around and derail other threads because you're feeling snubbed. If I've forgotten to answer something, a polite PM will remind me.
Such indignation (feigned I suspect) mamabear
November 17, 2009 - 11:57 ET by RESTLESS 1I'm not following you. I happened upon your comment here, and thought I'd direct you to my post because it was hard to find in that thread.
Don't find creepiness where none exists.
"If the man, with the power, can't keep it under control...some heads are gonna roll." -Judas Priest
How is this any different
November 16, 2009 - 12:14 ET by moderncommentaries83How is this any different than the parents of the "balloon boy", Richard and Mayumi Heene? Both are exploiting their children for personal and political gain.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I'm sure that if there were
November 16, 2009 - 12:16 ET by eaglewingz08I'm sure that if there were a boy or girl refusing to say the Pledge until the US Government cracked down on illegal immigration or balanced the budget or Obama made a decision on adding troops to Afghanistan, those kids too would wind up front and center on CNN.
Right.
The balloon boy parents
November 16, 2009 - 17:16 ET by ckc1227The balloon boy parents broke the law, while these parents are simply guilty of raising a clueless, misguided kid....aka, a Democrat. If you ask me, the latter should be the bigger crime.
Hey, kid! How about equal
November 16, 2009 - 12:22 ET by MikeBHey, kid! How about equal constitutional rights for the unborn? Biologically, they're alive, and genetically they are human. Are you going to refuse to salute the flag until abortion is outlawed? How about property owner's rights? Why should a homeowner pay rent to the State to live in the house they bought and paid for? Are you going to refuse to pledge allegiance until ad valorem taxes are outlawed? And, shall we discuss ending Affirmative Action, which discriminates against your ignorant white self when it comes to jobs and education?
Kid, either pledge, or don't pledge, but don't try to wrap it up in some moral crusade. You show your ignorance and silliness when you do.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Mike B---
November 16, 2009 - 22:26 ET by matthewdeanThis kid, at ten, count 'em, ten years of age, has made up his mind.
Don't confuse him with the facts.
That should be his parents job.
They, obviously, ain't measuring up.
Even if this simple minded sh*t had'nt been featured on CNN (which validates the subject matter from a liberal perspective), had I read it in the print media, I would be re-checking the issue date to make sure it was'nt April Fools Day.
Unbelievable.
MD
"There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress."
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Where are all the adults at
November 16, 2009 - 12:28 ET by rbosqueWhere are all the adults at CNN? This 10 year old child must be their poster child for rational thinking.
Another classic example of
November 16, 2009 - 12:34 ET by SnappyAnother classic example of the dismal shape our public education is, and the breakdown of basic learning in the home from parents. Gays and Lesbians DO have equal rights, in fact with being included in the hate crime legislation they actually have more protection under the law than I do.
Status Crimes
November 16, 2009 - 19:04 ET by ahusserHate crime legislation dispenses metered justice based on a person's "status". If you are the protected 'species' then you get more justice. Even though the status has changed we had such 'justice' when certain classes had their own courts. Nobles, commoners and slaves each had their own 'justice' on a sliding scale (in an earlier time one could add clergy for their own courts). Guess which way the slide went. Not progressive but a step backward.
"Somehow, I told you so, just doesn't quite say it." Will Smith in 'I, Robot.'
a puff of smoke just came
November 16, 2009 - 12:47 ET by jwm45a puff of smoke just came out of the BS meter....
No one has to recite the
November 16, 2009 - 13:09 ET by Radical1979No one has to recite the pledge, but they DO stand. When I taught school I had a Jehovah's Witness and she always stood while the pledge was said.
There is no reason for this little smart a$$ to pull this except to gain attention and disrupt school. His parents are no better. Good luck to the teachers trying to get something accomplished.
This is a setup by a number
November 16, 2009 - 13:12 ET by Dan The Man 2This is a setup by a number of people including the boy and his parents and possibly the teacher also. It seems to me if the teacher had some wits about her then she could have opened the topic up for discussion; after all it is the fifth grade and history and citizenship are still in play.
There the class could have discussed what life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness means along with justice; and how much. Who makes the laws and what these kids can do to change the laws.
We could have discussed the hiegharcy of laws and what is the highest law in the land, the Constitution of the USA. The enumerated powers in the Constitution and th powers relegated to the states. This would have been an excellent teaching moment and hopefully taught this young man it is not going to do much to change the world.
The boy has the right to be civily disobediant and he also has the righ to endure any discipline resulting from the disobediance. The father should realize this also. Now is this disrupting teh class, yes, but is it teaching time or free time. Is teh pledge part of teh lesson plan?
I fault the interviewer for treating this bright kid as a simpleton. He should have asked him what his ideas of justice and liberty were and where they fall under the current laws and Constitution. I mean he did say "Ma'am, with all due respect, you can go jump off a bridge" which to me seems mighty good phrasing for a 10 year old.
Sick...this is gonna be my posts from now on
November 16, 2009 - 13:28 ET by Paul GThis is our world?!
10 Years Old but has a "lot" of gay friends
November 16, 2009 - 13:35 ET by YahooWatcherROBERTS: Got you. All right. Let's bring in Will here again. Will, why is this issue so important to you that you would commit as your dad said this atypical act of juvenile delinquency?
WILL PHILLIPS: Because I have many -- I've grown up with a lot of people and good friends with a lot of people that are gay and I really -- I think they should have the rights all people should. And I'm not going to swear that they do.
Gimme a break.
Don't Tax Me, Bro.
10 years old and he already scored a scholarship to Harvard
November 16, 2009 - 13:49 ET by SickofLibsHis parents should sign him up for Cub Scouts and make him quit that "Junior ACLU Lawyers Club" at school.
I blame the dad
November 16, 2009 - 13:51 ET by Conservative VoiceThe 10 year old is too young to know what it means to have equal rights and justice for all...and understand the gay issue. The ghey have equal rights, marriage is not a right.
Conservative Voice
November 16, 2009 - 19:08 ET by ahusserYou hit the nail on the head. Marriage, like driving is a licensed privilege, which the state regulates. The state says who you can marry, how old and what degree of co-sanguinity it allows.
"Somehow, I told you so, just doesn't quite say it." Will Smith in 'I, Robot.'
Perfect example at what has
November 16, 2009 - 14:00 ET by bigtimerPerfect example at what has happened to our public education..and parenting...let alone one word...RESPECT.
Pathetic.
'Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea'~Breitbart
A child of 10
November 16, 2009 - 14:39 ET by ChristianRebelShould not have ANY political view aside from who is the better superhero, Bat-man or Super-man!
Either he is an example of indoctrination or the whole story's a set up.
More proof of our wonderful education system.
November 16, 2009 - 14:39 ET by Sestren_NK"Well, I looked at the end and it said "with liberty and justice for
all." And there really isn't liberty and justice for all. There's --
gays and lesbians can't marry. There's still a lot of racism and sexism
in the world, yes."
Newsflash, kid: It reads "Liberty and Justice for all", not "Equality for all". And last I checked the pledge of alligience applies to America, not the world.
someone
November 16, 2009 - 15:27 ET by jacktherippershould investigate the parents...this kid has "lots" of gay friends?? NAMBLA anyone??
Proud HillBilly from NNY
Oh goody,
November 16, 2009 - 15:50 ET by Kansasgirlanother government educational taught robot.
What a delightfully ironic
November 16, 2009 - 22:47 ET by mamabearWhat a delightfully ironic phrase.
So the opinions of snot
November 16, 2009 - 16:09 ET by saintknowitallSo the opinions of snot nosed 10 year old are national news. Must have been a slow news day.
Would be interesting to know who his parents are and how they got him on CNN. That is the real story, how did a 10 year old get on CNN.
Yeah, and he didn't even have to take off in a runaway balloon
November 16, 2009 - 16:18 ET by SickofLibsYeah, and he didn't even have to take off in a runaway balloon
If it were me...
November 16, 2009 - 17:55 ET by UnsaneIf I had tried this for whatever reason when I was 10, the only remains left of me would be a few strands of DNA on my old man's belt.
This is reminiscent in some ways of the media gush-fest over Samantha Smith in 1983.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
→ Merciless
November 16, 2009 - 19:56 ET by Cool ArrowImagine the flak this kid gets at school.
He's got to be the darling of his teachers.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE!
If he were mine
November 16, 2009 - 18:03 ET by doug1950I'd give the little snot nosed brat a damned whipping.And if he called the authorities, when they arrived, I would say "take him, take him". Maybe a few weeks without all the luxuries of home may make a believer out of him.
doug, So would I, it was
November 16, 2009 - 18:08 ET by bigtimerdoug,
So would I, it was bad enough he told the teacher to go jump in a lake to begin with....then the Pledge of Allegiance.
He'd be in some mighty big trouble.
Instead his parents put him on TV...says a lot of how he's been raised as far as I am concerned....and a lot about his parents.
'Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea'~Breitbart
You guys are
November 16, 2009 - 18:20 ET by mamabearYou guys are horrible!
Where is all the vaunted talk about free speech when someone decides not to make a pledge they don't believe in? You would rather he stood up and said it even though he thinks it's a lie?
At least Noel Sheppard had the decency to "applaud" the kid's effort and recognized that you can't whine about your right to yell at a senator or bring guns to public meetings or use other legal means to register your protest, and then turn around and sneer at someone else doing the same.
Kids have very strong ideas about fairness, and they have a hard time with moral shades of grey. At least the kid decided to do something about what he thought was unfair instead of shrugging his shoulders and adding it to his idea of the way the world works. If more young people felt like they could or should make a difference in the world, it would be a better world. I'll bet half of the good kids who stand up and put their hands over their hearts and recite the pledge have never given a moment's thought to what the words mean. They do it because someone told them to.
Is that what you'd rather see in the next generation?
I'm all for free speech,
November 16, 2009 - 18:40 ET by Conservative VoiceI'm all for free speech, but I'm also for responsible speech. In other words, you are free to say what you want, but you must accept the consequences of said speech.
Two things at issue here. The kid failed to show proper respect to the teacher. He can disagree without be disrespectful. Second is he has a misunderstanding of what it means to have equal rights and justice for all. Marriage is not a right, its a priviledge. It isn't a love contract, it isn't a business contract.
A privilege might be a bit much
November 16, 2009 - 19:05 ET by UnsaneI wouldn't even go so far to say that marriage is a privilege. It is an institution on offer that can be used if one meets the criteria set forth by state governments/religions/both. Does it have to be used? No. Is it taken up by everybody? Nah.
Though I must say this is the second time you mentioned marriage is not a right. It is a sad commentary that you had to mention that twice. You see, people are losing sight of what is, and what is NOT, a right.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
That was just asinine
November 16, 2009 - 19:01 ET by UnsaneNo, mamabear, some of us were raised with some values that apparently escape you.
Yes, children do make some valid points, as I know from personal experience, but as stated above, had I refused to say the pledge for ANY reason, the only thing left of me would be strands of DNA on my father's belt. I got severely punished for less than telling my teacher to go jump in a lake, though there are many I wished would go jump in a lake.
Apparently the idea that children should be disciplined and perhaps should be worrying about more fundamental things in school, like being able to write a 5 paragraph essay on how he thinks gays are so severely oppressed in this country (for example), is just too reactionary for your tastes. I don't know.
I'll bet half of the good kids who stand up and put their hands over their hearts and recite the pledge have never given a moment's thought to what the words mean. Some of us are taught this as children. They do it because someone told them to. Sort of like much of what goes on in school today? Sort of like honor students who won't or can't read anything other than what the teacher tells them to because they cannot function out of that structure? Sort of like the vast armies of children who cannot and will not criticaly think because such nonsense is not taught in public schools today?
Where is all the vaunted talk about free speech when someone decides not to make a pledge they don't believe in? Funny how Leftists whine and scream about free speech ONLY if the free speech applies to the Leftist's pet causes. mamabear, I don't know how long ago you last attended public school, but free speech does not exist there. At all. I should know. Schools teach democracy, but outside of the popularity contests euphemistically called "student council elections", they do not practice it.
Maybe I was a little weird as a kid, but at 10, reciting the pledge was a no-brainer. What was there NOT to believe in? Granted, I was an Army brat, but even at that age I wanted the United States to be #1 in all things. (I have since modified that to be #1 in all things except soccer.) And perhaps someone could explain to the said 10 year old that because people fought and died for that flag he doesn't believe in, and for a pledge he doesn't believe in, he can turn around and change things within the system that flag and pledge represents and enshrines.
Apparently all of this is lost on you.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
to unsane
November 16, 2009 - 19:37 ET by ozarkianbeautifully said.
Especially about the "jump off a bridge" (or in a lake or which ever) part. Hope mama bear isn't so true to the tag that she would go to the school and support her own offspring being so disrespectful to an adult. We call 'em "helicopter parents," cause they can't stop hovering -- and they support everything that comes out of their li'l darlin's heart.
I don't think he should
November 16, 2009 - 22:12 ET by mamabearI don't think he should have told his teacher to jump in a lake. But he explained that he tried to stand by his conviction for four days and then lost his temper. He sounded like he realized it was a bad thing, and so did his father. Some kids don't actually require physical punishment to learn a lesson. You explain to them why what they did was wrong, and they get it. You show disapproval, and they feel bad. Whether a belt has to enter the picture or not isn't for you or me to judge.
Sort of like much of what goes on in school today? Sort of like honor
students who won't or can't read anything other than what the teacher
tells them to because they cannot function out of that structure?
Sort of like the vast armies of children who cannot and will not
criticaly think because such nonsense is not taught in public schools
today?
That's exactly what I'm talking about!! This kid thought for himself and did something unpopular, and you're wishing someone would whack the nonconformity right out of him. How do you think we end up with bright kids who have lost their intellectual curiosity before they are teenagers? This kid thought critically about something. Is his analysis sophisticated? No, but maybe his teacher could have helped him along with that if she'd had a spare moment in the day or a spare nerve to give him. Try taking a belt to him for it and see how much it improves his critical thinking skills.
And perhaps someone could explain to the said 10 year old that because
people fought and died for that flag he doesn't believe in, and for a
pledge he doesn't believe in, he can turn around and change things
within the system that flag and pledge represents and enshrines.
I'll bet he would love to hear that he has the power to change things. It would be great, if someone sat down and explained that to him. Maybe they could do it without calling him names, or accusing him of being a plant or a schill,or aNAMBVLA victom, or a gay wad.
That would be fabulous.
I am raising the large
November 16, 2009 - 22:30 ET by doug1950Yellow BS flag now.
Red flags
November 17, 2009 - 00:51 ET by UnsaneA large yellow BS flag, you say? You are too kind, doug. On this page, where I see mamabear typing, I see more red BS flags than one could ever hope to see at a May Day parade in Red Square back in the day!
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Good morning Unsane, my sentiments exactly... RED FLAG.
November 17, 2009 - 00:55 ET by pahuber: )
Red Square back in the
November 17, 2009 - 22:49 ET by mamabearRed Square back in the day!
Ahhh, you take me back...
:)
Psychobabble central
November 17, 2009 - 00:42 ET by UnsaneI don't think he should have told his teacher to jump in a lake. But he explained that he tried to stand by his conviction for four days and then lost his temper. He sounded like he realized it was a bad thing, and so did his father. Some kids don't actually require physical punishment to learn a lesson. You explain to them why what they did was wrong, and they get it. You show disapproval, and they feel bad. Whether a belt has to enter the picture or not isn't for you or me to judge. Psychobabble. My old man showed me very well what he approved of and did not approve of. I think there is not a kid on earth that at one time in his or her life does not require physical punishment at some point in his or her life. Especially not in my family. I am smart enough to know I needed my ass smacked HARD growing up.
There is no way in hell I will be justifying this kid's actions. Why he wasn't expelled is beyond me. In my day, I would have been expelled for less.
That's exactly what I'm talking about!! This kid thought for himself and did something unpopular, and you're wishing someone would whack the nonconformity right out of him. How do you think we end up with bright kids who have lost their intellectual curiosity before they are teenagers? This is about as dense as it gets on NB. I lost none of my intellectual curiousity as a teenager. One of the biggest reasons I had such a miserable time in high school was my absolute refusal to play the game high schoolers are required to play. I wasn't one to get sent to the office every day but I made my own rules. I was quite the non-conformist and loved nothing more than to tweak my teacher's noses, especially if I held them in contempt.
But you know something? I still showed respect for the flag and the country, because I was smart enough to know, then as now, that the flag represents some important ideas and beliefs, and that in order for that flag to fly and for me to be in the country I was in, a lot of people had to die to get there. (Or maybe because my obsessive devotion to history had begun at a very early age. I don't know.)
There is a line between non-conformity and being utterly stupid and ungrateful. The ungrateful part is something Leftists have down to a science it would appear.
This kid thought critically about something. Is his analysis sophisticated? No, but maybe his teacher could have helped him along with that if she'd had a spare moment in the day or a spare nerve to give him. Please. More psychobabble. Try taking a belt to him for it and see how much it improves his critical thinking skills. The belt might have helped with his critical thinking skills extremely well. It sure helped me. The belt set boundaries - the concept of which escapes you completely as you have indicated here and elsewhere in your posting history on NB.
Actually, what would have helped him and apparently would help your critical thinking skills is watching the first 20 minutes or so of Saving Private Ryan. And yeah, I'd have no qualms about showing that to a 10 year old.
I'll bet he would love to hear that he has the power to change things. It would be great, if someone sat down and explained that to him. Maybe they could do it without calling him names, or accusing him of being a plant or a schill,or aNAMBVLA victom, or a gay wad. Of course, in your emotionalistic appeal, and more psychobabble - you clearly only think with your heart, not your brain - you miss the point. He should say the pledge like millions of other American school children. Unless, of course, he can pick another, better country.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Suggesting that violence
November 17, 2009 - 18:59 ET by mamabearSuggesting that violence isn't necessary for raising children isn't psychobabble. Psychobabble would be claiming that since this kid is probably in Piaget's concrete operational stage he has just emerged from an egocentric point of view, which might account for his concern for gay friends, but is not yet capable of formal operational reasoning that allows him to understand moral and ethical shades of grey.
Or something like that. I wouldn't know, I'm not a developmental psychologist.
I'm glad your parents hit you and it worked out so great for you. I'm not sure how you manged to graduate from high school, since you claim you would have been expelled and beaten senseless for crimes smaller than telling a teacher to jump in a lake, and yet you refused to play by the rules and tweaked your teacher's noses all the time. By doing what, I have to wonder? Perhaps you had the daring to leave the crosses off of your t's and the dots off of your i's. The scandal!
I saw Saving Private Ryan. Movies like that make me more determined to hold our national feet to the fire, so that when soldiers have to sacrifice themselves to protect our country, it's never for anything less than the pinnacle of our national ideals. Justice for everybody, equal treatment under the law.
I guess that's something you can't understand.
Wow!
November 17, 2009 - 19:05 ET by BlondeI'll sleep better knowing a liberal like you is "holding feet to the fire".
You people are disgusting. Truly.
It was bad enough you cluttered up my Health Care thread with your nonsense, you had your ass kicked badly, but you are still here blathering on with your stupidity. You have never had a point, nor a logical argument....just feeeeeeelings.
You wonder why I despise liberals? Go look in the mirror, honey.
I hope he fails, too.
Nice. For someone who's
November 17, 2009 - 21:10 ET by mamabearNice.
For someone who's all about logical arguments, maybe you'd like to say something about the topic we're discussing?
Nope
November 19, 2009 - 19:47 ET by BlondeI've found you to be incapable of staying on any logical discussion I've engaged in with you.
Sorry. You're not worth my time, but I just had to point out your blathering still grates.
I hope he fails, too.
I left that discussion
November 19, 2009 - 20:21 ET by mamabearI left that discussion because you said you didn't want to converse with me any more. Aware that I was only at the party because you had invited me, I figured the polite thing was to leave.
You should really make up your mind.
Justice under whose
November 17, 2009 - 21:16 ET by Dan The Man 2Justice under whose interpretation? Lets say the people make the determination as they are doing by popular vote in the states. But lets also say that this unholy compact does not transfer between the states. That is what teh kid must understand teh implications in law and custom go way beyond his understanding and possibly yours judging by your arguments.
Yes, the laws and customs
November 17, 2009 - 22:42 ET by mamabearYes, the laws and customs and cultural implications are way beyond this kid's understanding. But I think it shows a lot of guts not to just accept the world as it is presented to you at age ten. Hopefully, people are talking to him POLITELY about all of those laws and implications and his understanding will be more refined in the end.
Who knows, maybe the parents put him up to it. But if they didn't, then I think the kid is behaving exactly the way a responsible American should, by questioning things he thinks are wrong.
Mamabear
November 17, 2009 - 22:32 ET by doug1950"Or something like that. I wouldn't know, I'm not a developmental psychologist"
Well, now that we have established you don't know what in the hell you are talking about, let some of us who do get back to business.
Oh wonderful! I didn't
November 17, 2009 - 22:44 ET by mamabearOh wonderful! I didn't realize we had a child psychologist among us.
Perhaps you could enlighten us with your professional opinion on the matter? "Snot nosed brat" must be a technical term I'm unfamiliar with...
What thinking with your heart gets you
November 17, 2009 - 22:57 ET by UnsaneSuggesting that violence isn't necessary for raising children isn't psychobabble. Absolutely it is. Violence works. It works each and every time it is applied. And when it is NOT working, you are not being violent enough. Don't believe me? Reference world history.
And nowhere am I suggesting being abusive to children just for the sake of being abusive. Nor do I believe that anyone but relatives or legal guardians have the right to spank children. But to suggest that violence isn't necessary to raise children is indeed pure psychobabble. For instance, if my kid is walking towards a dangerous situation, and I need to immediately intervene and stop him, I'd much rather whack him or her on the butt than watch him or her get run over by a car or burn himself on the stove, or whatever.
I'm glad your parents hit you and it worked out so great for you. I'm not sure how you manged to graduate from high school, since you claim you would have been expelled and beaten senseless for crimes smaller than telling a teacher to jump in a lake, and yet you refused to play by the rules and tweaked your teacher's noses all the time. Why do you think I was hit? In case you haven't noticed here on NB, I am one stubborn SOB. By doing what, I have to wonder? Perhaps you had the daring to leave the crosses off of your t's and the dots off of your i's. Sweetie, you have no idea. That would draw much yelling and screaming. The scandal! You would imprison my parents instantly if you knew what I went through, yet I emerged unscathed, unscarred, a well-adjusted adult who constantly contributes positively to society. My parents didn't behave as they did out of sadism, but rather because they know instinctively that I will be all that is left of their legacy when they are gone, and that I needed to be taught how to function in society with other adults.
You know what the funniest part is? People think I had a strict upbringing. I didn't, really. One reason my parents HAD to hit me and yell at me for screwing up was simple: other forms of punishment never worked. Grounding me was laughable and they found this out very early on. And I was stubborn, and STILL am. I knew parents that made my parents seem laid back and permissive.
I saw Saving Private Ryan. Movies like that make me more determined to hold our national feet to the fire, so that when soldiers have to sacrifice themselves to protect our country, it's never for anything less than the pinnacle of our national ideals. Justice for everybody, equal treatment under the law. More total psychobabble. What I saw was that a few thousand of our young men died in the name of busting evil in the mouth. And that is occasionally required. It is a concept that Leftists like you will never understand or accept. To paraphrase Heinlein, if you think violence doesn't solve everything, you are cordially invited to spout your wisdom to the city fathers of Carthage.
You think with your heart and ONLY your heart. You need to start engaging your brain.
By the way, I totally agree with Blonde's eloquent response to you, in full.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
The funny thing is that I'm
November 18, 2009 - 00:42 ET by mamabearThe funny thing is that I'm not even saying violence doesn't work. As I said, I'm happy that it worked out well for you. What I'm saying is that it isn't necessary, that some kids can turn out fine without it.
But to suggest that violence isn't necessary to raise children is indeed pure psychobabble.
For all you keep putting your own experiences out there as proof that violence is the answer, I can point to my own as direct refutation that it HAS to be. I'm fine, never got hit. Yelled at a lot, during those teenage years, and that was bad enough for me. So I am an example of someone successfully raised without violence. Why is that psychobabble?
Everyone has a choice when they decide they want to change the behavior of another person in their life, whether it is a child, or a spouse, or a parent. You can punish the behavior you don't want, or you can reward the behavior you do want. Both have the same effect, but punishment has lots of other side effects. Yes, when the hand is reaching for the light socket, it is appropriate to smack it and yell no. But overuse of punishment is a vicious cycle, becuase the negative value of an experience is based on our expectations. Expect violence, and only worse violence will have the intended effect. Use it sparingly, and it will shock and awe when it is most important that it do so-- life and death situations.
The great part about this story, is that the kid's principle did exactly the right thing. His punishment for talking back to the teacher and condition of his continued protest, was to turn in a paper researching the American flag and the history of the pledge of allegiance.
Darn straight! Make the kid learn something if he's going to take a stand. Educate him without telling him to just shut up and do what he's told. Expand his little horizons without squashing his ideas.
There's nothing wrong with thinking the kid is wrong or misguided. What is wrong is calling him names and mocking him for being stupid or unsophisticated. He's ten! What's wrong is presuming that you have any place telling someone else how to raise their child. What's wrong is wanting people to say the pledge of allegiance if they don't mean it. I think that demeans the flag you pledge to.
Think, do not feel
November 18, 2009 - 14:19 ET by UnsaneWhat's wrong is wanting people to say the pledge of allegiance if they don't mean it. I think that demeans the flag you pledge to. This is because you view the flag, the pledge, and everything that went into them all, and what they stand for, as an extremely CHEAP thing. You, like the kid, are a whiny ingrate, who refuses to see why people might be offended by this, and the appearance that the parents see this as wonderful and OK.
The funny thing is that I'm not even saying violence doesn't work. As I said, I'm happy that it worked out well for you. What I'm saying is that it isn't necessary, that some kids can turn out fine without it. What you were saying is that violence isn't necessary. I disagree and will always disagree. Just because you are pliant and easily cowed by someone yelling at you - which I don't buy at all - doesn't mean that there arer about a 100 kids for every one of you who desperately need an occasional ass kicking. I was one of them. I was simply too stubborn for my old man to NOT beat the s**t out of me every so often.
For all you keep putting your own experiences out there as proof that violence is the answer, I can point to my own as direct refutation that it HAS to be. I'm fine, never got hit. Yelled at a lot, during those teenage years, and that was bad enough for me. So I am an example of someone successfully raised without violence. Why is that psychobabble? Because of your insistence that because of your birght, shining example, that violence is not necessary. And again, I would be willing to bet that before you had a memory, you were getting smacked around by your parents. If not, then I am forced to once again ask why you aren't behaving as if you were raised by wolves. I don't see many toddlers and 3 year olds that can be reasoned with; in fact, I would be frightened of the toddler/3 year old that CAN be reasoned with. For that is the time of life when children begin to discover freewill and the word NO.
Everyone has a choice when they decide they want to change the behavior of another person in their life, whether it is a child, or a spouse, or a parent. You can punish the behavior you don't want, or you can reward the behavior you do want. Both have the same effect, but punishment has lots of other side effects. Yes, when the hand is reaching for the light socket, it is appropriate to smack it and yell no. But overuse of punishment is a vicious cycle, becuase the negative value of an experience is based on our expectations. Expect violence, and only worse violence will have the intended effect. Use it sparingly, and it will shock and awe when it is most important that it do so-- life and death situations. Now THIS is complete psychobabble, and more evidence of the fact that you only think with your heart, and never, ever, your brain. You walk through life FEELING your way through everything. It isn't healthy. If you do not believe violence doesn't have about a 100% success rate, all you need to do is to consult world history. You are simply telling me over and over again you are using the wrong organ with which to think, and that you have a pathetic understanding of basic human nature.
The great part about this story, is that the kid's principle did exactly the right thing. His punishment for talking back to the teacher and condition of his continued protest, was to turn in a paper researching the American flag and the history of the pledge of allegiance. The principal was and is a cowed wimp and political hack fearful of a lawsuit. If I were him, that paper would be the ticket back to school after he was suspended for about two weeks. Better still if he were expelled.
Darn straight! Make the kid learn something if he's going to take a stand. Educate him without telling him to just shut up and do what he's told. Expand his little horizons without squashing his ideas. Yawn. Nothing I want to get into here - I am replete with things like this in my upbringing. But did I do something as asinine as refuse to say the pledge? No. Why? I knew what it meant and respected the meaning long before the age of 10.
You are really going to have to learn to stop feeling your way through life and learn to think every so often.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
This is because you view
November 18, 2009 - 20:08 ET by mamabearThis is because you view the flag, the pledge, and everything that went
into them all, and what they stand for, as an extremely CHEAP thing.
This is really fascinating. I think that the flag shouldn't be mouthed to because it is IMPORTANT. Not because it is cheap. It is fascinating to see how you manage to twist everything. You need to make friends with a liberal. We're not monsters!
Just because you are pliant and easily cowed by someone yelling at you
- which I don't buy at all - doesn't mean that there arer about a 100
kids for every one of you who desperately need an occasional ass
kicking.
You are still ignoring basic logic. Our two personal experiences cannot prove that anything is 100% necessary, but they can prove that something is NOT 100% necessary, as long as one of us violates that rule. I violate your rule, therefore you are wrong to think that violence is ALWAYS necessary. Go ahead and argue that it is often necessary, I'll let you have that.
And again, I would be willing to bet that before you had a memory, you
were getting smacked around by your parents. If not, then I am forced
to once again ask why you aren't behaving as if you were raised by
wolves.
Wow. Just, wow. My mother hit me once. I was in the back of the car, refusing to stay seated, and reaching over the back of her seat and hitting her. She finally lost her temper, turned around, smacked my hand and yelled "Don't hit!." And then she realized what a ridiculous mockery she'd just made of the lesson she wanted me to learn, and she never hit me again.
You don't need to reason with 3 year olds. You need to distract them when they're cranky, and teach them that annoying behavior will never get them what they want. I remember babysitting for a child of my parent's friends when I was a teenager. This was an incredibly bright kid who ran roughshod over his parents by screaming, whining, and throwing full-blown temper tantrums when he didn't get what he wanted. The first time he threw himself on the floor and alternated between holding his breath and screaming at my house? We all just walked quietly out of the room and left him there. No yelling, no hitting. Because when a child wants attention, yelling counts.
It took a couple of minutes, but he walked quietly into the room and sat down to play. He never threw a tantrum with us again, but he kept doing it to his parents. Children are smart enough to figure out who's a sucker and who isn't.
Here's some psychobabble for you: I don't think observing this success and generalizing from it involves thinking with me heart instead of my head. I am, however, sensing a VERY strong need for you to think that I'm wrong... I guess that isn't surprising.
You haven't yet explained why you refer to "world history" when you defend violence. Are you talking about violence on the world stage solving problems and then generalizing that to child raising? Or are you saying that people have always hit their kids and the human race is still here?
hippiebear strikes again
November 19, 2009 - 13:13 ET by UnsaneYou haven't yet explained why you refer to "world history" when you defend violence. Thank you for telling me that as you FEEL your way through life, you forget that one has to occasionally read. You missed the Heinlein reference from Starship Troopers I had earlier on (the novel). If you truly believe violence does not work and does not solve anything and is just so MEAN, then go let the city fathers of Carthage know (to make the reference again.)
You also are not aware of the history of just the last 100 years, which turned out to be the bloodiest in world history. Seen a map of Europe lately? You know why it looks like that? Violence, and in some places, the threat of violence.
Are you talking about violence on the world stage solving problems and then generalizing that to child raising? Or are you saying that people have always hit their kids and the human race is still here? Yes and yes. I don't care if it is spanking your kid for a transgression, or as one article I read put it, ending an argument between nations/armies with "the exquisite finality of a simple bayonet thrust"...violence works, on whatever scale you wish to discuss.
Just because it sucks and is unappetizing does not mean it isn't effective.
This is really fascinating. I think that the flag shouldn't be mouthed to because it is IMPORTANT. Not because it is cheap. It is fascinating to see how you manage to twist everything. Not at all. It is fascinating how you manage to defend using a moment of respect to the nation as a great place to air political grievances regardless of age. You need to make friends with a liberal. We're not monsters! No, but y'all are incredibly naive and walk your way through life FEELING. I know plenty of Leftists, thank you. Where I sit, I am the circus freak. I may be in TX, but here on the cusp of the People's Republic of Travis County, with its capital of Moscow on the Colorado, I am surrounded by Leftists.
Wow. Just, wow. My mother hit me once. I was in the back of the car, refusing to stay seated, and reaching over the back of her seat and hitting her. She finally lost her temper, turned around, smacked my hand and yelled "Don't hit!." And then she realized what a ridiculous mockery she'd just made of the lesson she wanted me to learn, and she never hit me again. Fascinating. I was never raised by hippies, just old-school types. Would it terrify you to know that, as a warning not to push my luck, I got a bag of switches with my candy one year on St. Nicholas's Day from my dear old mom? Bet you are wondering how I managed to survive that trauma!
You don't need to reason with 3 year olds. You need to distract them when they're cranky, and teach them that annoying behavior will never get them what they want. I remember babysitting for a child of my parent's friends when I was a teenager. This was an incredibly bright kid who ran roughshod over his parents by screaming, whining, and throwing full-blown temper tantrums when he didn't get what he wanted. The first time he threw himself on the floor and alternated between holding his breath and screaming at my house? We all just walked quietly out of the room and left him there. No yelling, no hitting. Because when a child wants attention, yelling counts. Ah, you must be one of those people who make grocery shopping and visiting restaurants and other public places such sheer joy. My parents? Well, they would just smack me repeatedly until I quit. It saved a whole hell of a lot of time and taught us kids how to properly behave in society. And yet, for some bizarre reason that perhaps you can explain in your infinite wisdom, we kids turned out great.
It took a couple of minutes, but he walked quietly into the room and sat down to play. He never threw a tantrum with us again, but he kept doing it to his parents. Children are smart enough to figure out who's a sucker and who isn't. And children, they being human, are also smart enough to know what positive and negative reinforcement are. The spanking is what is called negative reinforcement. You don't commit certain behavior, you don't get a spanking. It is a lot simpler, more time efficient, and has a proven track record, as violent acts tend to do.
Here's some psychobabble for you: I don't think observing this success and generalizing from it involves thinking with me heart instead of my head. I am, however, sensing a VERY strong need for you to think that I'm wrong... I guess that isn't surprising. Much as I sense a strong need for you to rebut every single word I say, I guess. And yes, sweetie, you DO think with your heart, and not your head. I'm not just pulling this from this thread. I have been reading your posts for some time and I am distilling what I have seen to make a judgment.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Thank you for telling me
November 19, 2009 - 19:43 ET by mamabearThank you for telling me that as you FEEL your way
through life, you forget that one has to occasionally read.
I'm asking a question so that I don't make a mistaken assumption about what you meant. I ask, because I consider it impolite to make assumptions, as you do in the next sentence. Your parents may have managed to raise a kid who could function, but I have yet to see any evidence that their efforts taught you any manners
If you truly believe violence does not work and does not solve anything
and is just so MEAN...
You would be doing an excellent job of arguing against me if that was anything close to what I believed or have said up to this point. But it's not.
Ah, you must be one of those people who make grocery shopping and visiting restaurants and other public places such sheer joy.
No. The people you are complaining about are the people who try to do what I am suggesting and fail. Those are the people who hold out as long as they can, then give in. They congratulate themselves of their will power when in fact, they have simply taught their child to persist a little bit longer in the whining next time. Hitting kids is probably easier, but that doesn't mean the nonviolent way doesn't work if you just exercise some self-discipline.
The spanking is what is called negative reinforcement.
Wrong. Spanking is what is called punishment. Positive punishment, if you want to get technical-- something added to the environment that decreases the performance of a behavior. Negative reinforcement is something subtracted from the environment that increases the performance of a behavior. If I pull on a horse's bit to get it to turn left, that is negative reinforcement. The unpleasant pulling sensation is an aversive stimulus that ceases as soon as the desired behavior occurs, thus causing the animal to be more likely to perform that behavior. If I glare at a child until they take their feet off the table, then stop, that is negative reinforcement.
Punishment is indeed easy. It is also reinforcing for the punisher, who gets to vent their frustration and feel like they did something proactive. I suspect that it is that aspect, and not the proven track record, that explains why so many people are so fond of punishing other people.
And you thought you had seen psychobabble before! I tried to warn you... :)
And yes, sweetie, you DO think with your heart, and not your head.
None of my feelings explained the difference between negative reinforcement and positive punishment to me. I read, a lot. Go ahead and underestimate me as touchy feely, it makes this whole thing much easier.
Much as I sense a strong need for you to rebut every single word I say, I guess.
Is this tiring you out? The minute you want it to stop, all you have to do is admit that violence is not REQUIRED to succesfully raise a child. As I said before, I'm happy to let you say that it helps with most children, and though I disagree, I won't argue with you because there is at least a possibility of you being right. My very logical brain, however, cannot stand for you insisting on a principle that I, simply by my generally contented existence, disprove. Sorry I can't be more touchy feely about that :)
Unsane
November 18, 2009 - 20:34 ET by MrShyI saw Saving Private Ryan. Movies like that make me more determined to hold our national feet to the fire, so that when soldiers have to sacrifice themselves to protect our country, it's never for anything less than the pinnacle of our national ideals. Justice for everybody, equal treatment under the law.
That is such meaningless, vague, nausea-inducing liberal wordplay. Man, these people just think -- sorry, feel -- on a level and in a place that's thoroughly disconnected from the realities of man and the things required to defend freedom and democracy.
mommy dearest, we are not his, school mates, parents, etc.
November 17, 2009 - 00:53 ET by pahuberYou really believe this boy came up w/ this on his own do you? LOL, ok... well go right on believing that while we stick to reality.
You obviously sympathize with what he did at some level... and that is putting it mildly.
"I'll bet he would love to hear that he has the power to change things. It would be great, if someone sat down and explained that to him."
Perhaps you will be the first on the bus to his home tomorrow.
Give respect, get respect.
P.S. Would you encourage your child in his current confused notion?
If he thought it up himself,
November 17, 2009 - 18:41 ET by mamabearIf he thought it up himself, I'd be proud whether or not I agreed with him.
No doubt you would... very pitiful. So any child that thinks up
November 21, 2009 - 20:00 ET by pahuberdeviant ways to not stand for the pledge is okey dokey with you...
You are what is wrong with our society.
I'll defend free speech in
November 16, 2009 - 19:08 ET by Radical1979I'll defend free speech in public schools when prayer is once again allowed in schools.
At ten, this kid shouldn't be quite so familiar with being gay. Where are our childhoods going?
I've got big shoulders
November 16, 2009 - 19:37 ET by doug1950so I can live with the prospect of being thought "horrible". He would still get a licking. Otherwise if he were my son and grew up to be a complete jackass, I would have no one to blame but myself. Being a parent involves more than siring the little darlings and turning them over and letting the State raise and educate them. They need to learn respect, manners and where they fit in this society so they can become productive, well adjusted, responsible adults. We already have enough leaches and parasites here living off the hard work, sweat and efforts of others. I should not want to add one more.
At least the fifth grader
November 16, 2009 - 19:07 ET by 24enakAt least the fifth grader has the common sense not to compare his protest with the Holocaust or other inflammatory and ludicrous comparison as some TEA party protesters have.
And at least CNN didn't promote the protest as another cable news outlet did the TEA party protests.
hmmm
November 16, 2009 - 19:45 ET by ozarkianInteresting how some folks can get their anti-Palin or anti-Tea party comments in even when the subject being discussed has nothing to do with either. I'll have to try it:
At least Tea Partiers don't write about Bush-Bashers when they're not even relevant to the topic-at-hand.
Works. Guess anyone can use any thread to get in a gratuitous crack against any group or person they're against, fitting or not.
Now I can go out and be a troll.
"Now I can go out and be a troll."
November 16, 2009 - 19:53 ET by MightyMouthDon't forget to stock up on Cheetos and Mt. Dew!
"The bureaucracy is growing to meet the needs of the growing bureaucracy"
I never mentioned Palin, you
November 16, 2009 - 20:56 ET by 24enakI never mentioned Palin, you did. I didn't bring up Tea party protesters Noel Shepard did.
You do realize this boarders on..
November 16, 2009 - 22:27 ET by MightyMouthChild abuse!?
"The bureaucracy is growing to meet the needs of the growing bureaucracy"
Only if---
November 16, 2009 - 22:44 ET by matthewdeanOnly if the kid gets whacked with a "board", MM. :)
Cheers.
MD
"There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress."
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
For our whiny Socialist
November 17, 2009 - 00:22 ET by UnsaneAt least the fifth grader has the common sense not to compare his protest with the Holocaust or other inflammatory and ludicrous comparison as some TEA party protesters have. Like who, my whiny Socialist?
And at least CNN didn't promote the protest as another cable news outlet did the TEA party protests. You mean "cover", right? Because Shahinshah knows, my whiny Socialist, nothing enrages you more than the fact that there exist in this country lots of people who do not want America to turn into a whiny, babying Nanny State like you so badly want.
By the way, how did you handle the extreme, agonizing stress of having to compose your words on a keyboard without a government nanny to hold your hand and baby you throughout the process?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Good morning NWAHS, Kenedy, 24enak, 7sticks, 007, etc etc or
November 17, 2009 - 00:38 ET by pahuberwhoever you are tonight at this particular moment.
TROLL!
I wonder how much time
November 16, 2009 - 20:00 ET by Free StinkerI wonder how much time passes before other 10-year-olds realize they can stop doing anything they want as long as they:
خال
Add one more to the list...
November 16, 2009 - 21:02 ET by John WI...of our misguided, deterred from the truth, youth.
And he is what...10-11 years old. He obviously does not understand that the equality that he is trying to support, pertains to that which is not equal.
It is equivalent to trying to say that a man who is married to a woman who works as a prostitute should be treated the same as if a man who is married to a woman who is not.
It just doesn't work.
Give it up.
Any way you look at it...
November 16, 2009 - 22:17 ET by MightyMouth...this poor little kid is screwed!
"The bureaucracy is growing to meet the needs of the growing bureaucracy"
Yeah, he is. So far, the
November 16, 2009 - 22:53 ET by mamabearYeah, he is.
So far, the community at NB has called him brain dead, clueless, immature, snot nosed brat, smart a$$, simple minded sh*t. That's the short list of insults.
And that's just from adults who act like children. Can you imagine what he gets at school from actual children?
mamabear? more like mamawhine
November 17, 2009 - 00:13 ET by UnsaneSo far, the community at NB has called him brain dead, clueless, immature, snot nosed brat, smart a$$, simple minded sh*t. That's the short list of insults. mamabear, what kind of upbringing did you have? If I had refused to say the pledge for any reason at that age, my old man would not have hesitated to beat the s**t out of me. ESPECIALLY if I had then told the teacher to go jump in a lake. As far as my parents were concerned, the teacher was God.
And that's just from adults who act like children. No, this is a whine from a child who herself is masquerading as an adult, not knowing how to react to adults like myself who are reflecting on their own upbringing.
Not to mention, you fail time and time and time again to grasp that the kid is refusing to say a pledge to a flag which represents a nation - and simple ideas - that people died for, specifically, so that kid could do what he is doing and say what he is saying. This basic concept is completely lost on you.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
My parents never raised a
November 17, 2009 - 21:05 ET by mamabearMy parents never raised a hand to me. I was generally happy, polite to my teachers, and I rebelled in the small, insignificant ways that only teenagers care about.
Adults who insult children are pathetic, and it would be tempting to make judgements about how such people must have been brought up, if I were inclined to judge other people's parenting abilities, which I'm not.
The kid is refusing to say a pledge that he doesn't think is true. No one asked him if he loves his country. Who knows, maybe the answer would surprise you.
Yeah, and maybe
November 17, 2009 - 22:36 ET by doug1950He will grow up to be a carbuncle on the backside of humanity too. Too many what ifs, woulda, coulda, shouldas in your thought pattern and holding your wonderful self up as an example of a well adjusted adult isn't working real well. Comes off as lacking.
Someone asked me how I was
November 17, 2009 - 22:48 ET by mamabearSomeone asked me how I was raised.
Ifs, couldas, wouldas, is kind of my point. None of you know anything about this child, how he was raised, or how he'll turn out. SO much unrestrained, uncharitable judgement going on here it's ridiculous!
For hippiebear
November 17, 2009 - 23:23 ET by UnsaneMy parents never raised a hand to me. I was generally happy, polite to my teachers, and I rebelled in the small, insignificant ways that only teenagers care about. I very seriously question this. If they never smacked you as a toddler, or older, I am compelled to ask why you are not behaving as if you were raised by wolves. Not to mention, I'd bet that you are one of those people that are easily cowed if someone yells at you because you have never experienced it.
Adults who insult children are pathetic, and it would be tempting to make judgements about how such people must have been brought up, if I were inclined to judge other people's parenting abilities, which I'm not. Adults who let children do as they damn well please to me are even more so. I do not think it is too much to ask for 10 year olds to be taught to respect authority, and while yes, they CAN question it, there is a time and a place, and that is not when the pledge is being said to a flag that represents a nation that allows for there to be robust questioning of authority, at the price of many gallons of blood.
The kid is refusing to say a pledge that he doesn't think is true. Then I say roll out Saving Private Ryan. Also, by the time I was in 4th Grade, I was being taught about the civil rights movement and how in this country, injustice can be vanquished more readily here than elsewhere. I also encountered a high wall covered in graffiti (on one side) that year which was put up to keep people from entering a place where people COULD question authority. I don't know. This made serious impressions on me at a young age. No one asked him if he loves his country. Who knows, maybe the answer would surprise you. You just don't think there is a single problem or issue on earth that can be solved by simply being oh so super-nice and just talking to people, do you?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You just don't think there
November 18, 2009 - 20:10 ET by mamabearYou just don't think there is a single problem or issue on earth that
can be solved by simply being oh so super-nice and just talking to
people, do you?
I am pretty nice, it's true. You got me there :)
mamabear, I think you meant to say that is being kind to this
November 17, 2009 - 00:34 ET by pahuberlittle brat. Not sure if you served your country, but I am inflamed at this kid and his parents.
You go right ahead and be an apologist for him by insulting the smarter people who stated more righteously than you did.
I hope you are not a conservative or consider yourself one because I would not want you in our movement.
P.S: Unless you have sacrificed for our country or have loved ones in harms way right now perhaps you should take a deep breath and just think before you type.
Paul
Calling a child you've never
November 17, 2009 - 21:09 ET by mamabearCalling a child you've never met a simple minded sh*t is not "righteous," no matter what someone's beliefs, whether they are right or wrong, and regardless of any sacrifice they or their loved ones may have made for our country.
Again, mamabear, I think you are the cancer in our country.
November 21, 2009 - 20:09 ET by pahuberYour ideas are what have continued to bring our nation to its knees. Liberty is great and is provided by our country by men and women who have served and even died for its ideals.
So for you to say how proud you are of this abused child because he can take orders from his father under the mask of caring for others is reprehensible.
How about pro-lifers and everybody with a grip not stand for the pledge until their issue is resolved. Better yet, lets just quit defending our country because it's just not worth supporting our country because it does not embrace every ideal we hold too. Wonderful idea... I'm sure you would love that...
"Calling a child you've never met a simple minded sh*t is not "righteous," no matter what someone's beliefs, whether they are right or wrong, and regardless of any sacrifice they or their loved ones may have made for our country."
Asinine post. While I never called the child a name I would say your priorities and concepts are ass backwards. I have not hope for you.
I bet his parents are a joy
November 17, 2009 - 00:22 ET by RR GOPI bet his parents are a joy for teachers to deal with in parent-teacher conferences. I know the type...precocious, think they're brilliant but, golly gee, mess up on tests because they think they're too smart to have to study. Idiot teacher's fault, of course, for not recognizing His innate superior intelligence and for not changing everything in His favor.
Think we used to call kids like this "brats".
One of the 34% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 86% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
It's nice to see a
November 17, 2009 - 12:11 ET by JasonCIt's nice to see a conservative defend a teacher over parents. More and more, conservative discourse, in its attempt to defend the ironclad privilege of The Parent to instill whatever values it wishes and to shield The Child from absolutely anything that might corrupt or challenge those values, has leaned toward attacking schools (insofar as they are snakepits of liberal indoctrination under the thumb of the NEA).
As someone who has vociferously defended gay marriage, I have a hard time taking this seriously. First, I feel bad for the kid, who is obviously being manipulated into pseudo-celebrity by his parents. It seems not to have occured to anyone involved that 5th-graders do not arrive at knee-jerk political ideologies through thoughtful analysis, but through the power of suggestion.
Second, his alleged retort to the teacher sound like something out of a really bad Nick at Nite show.
I am interested, though, in hearing from Noel as to why he applauds what the boy is doing. That was not the response I expected; I had to read it three times to be sure I'd read it correctly.
We did
November 17, 2009 - 12:12 ET by doug1950and they used to get a ass whoopin regularly, either at home or after school in the field behind the garage. This kid is in for a rude awakening one day when he finds out the real world does not work this way and he will have become an outcast. His parents need an ass whoopin too for bringing their precious little brat up thinking he can do this. He will find out the real world does not owe him a damn thing, most likely after he becomes an utter failure and can't cope with life's stresses because he has never had too. Look for his name in the evening news one day for wigging out and hurting someone because life has dealt him a poor hand and he can't deal with it.
Astute observation
November 17, 2009 - 23:26 ET by UnsaneAnd this is one major reason I will never enter the classroom as a teacher at a public school...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Maybe I didn't read it thoroughly...
November 18, 2009 - 00:04 ET by m4ster chief...but I don't recall a mother being mentioned, which kinda makes sense in this case.
What ya wanna bet...
November 18, 2009 - 00:19 ET by m4ster chief...Barney Frank creates a special intern position (no pun intended) for this boy as soon as the kid is old enough for the NAMBLA guys...about twelve.
The kid would have to change his form of protest, however...after a few days on Barney's staff (no pun intended) he'd find sitting down very uncomfortable.
This is why the government has no business regulating marriage
November 18, 2009 - 04:16 ET by AnkharanIf you are a citizewn in good standing without prior convictions of crimes that would preclude you from normal status as a citizen of the USA, are of legal age to enter into a contract, and are of sound mind and not under the stress of duress you should have the same rights as anyone else of your same status.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for ALL, not just a few select people or groups. Equality under the law for ALL, not just a few select groups or people.
Otherwise you are nothing but a bigoted homophobe who beleive that some people should not have rights. I have noticed it is the very same kind of people that held women down from voting, blacks as slaves and refusal to allow them the same rights, etc, etc, so on and so forth.
There is no ligit argument to disallow homosexuals from marriage.
Don't cite sickness of their sex lives, straight Christians do that and much worse.
Dont try and cite diseass either, straigts pass on more than homo's ever did.
Don't try and cite anything other than your religious bigotry as a reason because there is no logical reason to disallow homos from marriage.
Which is why, marriage should notbe regulated by any government agency.
Setting all that aside...
I cannot believe anyone would want the government regulating a religious rite. I cannot believe that the pious zealots do not fight this the same way they fight homos from marriage. I guess they don't mind that their rights are infringed so long as they control the rights of others.
Yeah, and that is the same kind of mentality that gets people like Obama elected. Toss away your rights so that others can be controlled by mental midgets.
For our extremely self-absorbed anti-religious bigot
November 18, 2009 - 14:01 ET by UnsaneOtherwise you are nothing but a bigoted homophobe who beleive that some people should not have rights. I have noticed it is the very same kind of people that held women down from voting, blacks as slaves and refusal to allow them the same rights, etc, etc, so on and so forth. Not even close. I cannot cite a single time where gays were not allowed to vote, nor can I find a Constitutional amendment which enfranchised them. Nor can I find where gays were segregated in the same manner that blacks were. You need to do a lot more studying of history before shooting off like this.
Also, you need to find someplace on NB where any NBer has suggested that gays and lesbians should have no rights. Please cite such for me.
There is no ligit argument to disallow homosexuals from marriage. Absolutely there is. But you are so extremely self-absorbed, you can't see it. And it has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with why marriage exists, which, again, you are so extremely self-absorbed, you have no clue why it exists.
Don't cite sickness of their sex lives, straight Christians do that and much worse. Dont try and cite diseass either, straigts pass on more than homo's ever did. Don't try and cite anything other than your religious bigotry as a reason because there is no logical reason to disallow homos from marriage. Yeah? Don't bark orders at people here, and above all, since you yourself are a hate-filled anti-religious bigot, don't come in here lecturing people on bigotry. Right about now you have as much moral authority as a whore lecturing the rest of us on the virtues of chastity.
Which is why, marriage should notbe regulated by any government agency. Why not? You are very unclear here. Besides, government has every right to regulate marriage. One very simple reason: it is a form of a contract, the purpose of which is one you are once again too self-absorbed to see.
Setting all that aside...
I cannot believe anyone would want the government regulating a religious rite. I cannot believe that the pious zealots do not fight this the same way they fight homos from marriage. I guess they don't mind that their rights are infringed so long as they control the rights of others. Is it me, or is it ironic that here you are wailing for the rights of gays - I can't see where their rights are trampled on en masse these days (and if you think marriage is a right, boy, you have zero clue as to what rights are) - yet you are constantly referring to gays, or homosexuals, as "homos"?
I have yet to see anyone here demanding the rights of gays and lesbians be trampled. And if people here do, it is a very tiny minority. I personally would lose no sleep over arranging for gays and lesbians to have civil unions. Marriage is another issue, because marriage, once again, has a specific purpose, that you are too self-absorbed to see. And again, if I have no right to get married - and I do not - no one else does, either.
Yeah, and that is the same kind of mentality that gets people like Obama elected. Toss away your rights so that others can be controlled by mental midgets. You have a very poor grasp of what rights are.
You have already demonstrated here repeatedly that you are a religion hating bigot. Perhaps you are an anarchist as well, one who is sickened and enraged that societies have things called STANDARDS?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
2 things
November 18, 2009 - 07:03 ET by vaboxrboy1. If this kid had a flag painted on his head or body there would be no problem on this site.
2. He could always say that it was against his religion. We don't make anyone say "Under God" it's law. The issue is because of the gay thing plain and simple. I taught school and you can't even make kids stand to say the pledge in the morning so as someone above said, "why is this an issue?"
Cheers, Chuck
It tells all
November 21, 2009 - 20:54 ET by UnsaneI taught school And that one phrase says a lot. And it isn't good. Trust me.
Cheers, Unsane
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)