The man who believes he's got the top rated news program on cable told his tiny audience Thursday that the eldest Kennedy brother was "shot down in World War II."
In reality, Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. was part of an experimental program called Operation Aphrodite that attempted to turn a bomb-laden plane into a remote controlled explosive device.
Kennedy was one of many pilots who lost their lives trying to make this program a reality.
But that's not what MSNBC's Keith Olbermann said on Thursday's "Countdown" (video embedded below the fold with partial transcript, History Channel video describing the mission after that, h/t NBer JEB Stewart):
KEITH OLBERMANN: Tonight, at the JFK Library in Boston, the crowds having waited for hours to pay there respects to Edward M. Kennedy, the man they sent to the Senate nine times, who served them in that capacity for nearly five decades.
Good evening from New York.
One year ago this month, as he was undergoing a chemotherapy treatment, Senator Kennedy having read in the newspaper about two servicemen from the same small town in Massachusetts who had been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan respectively. "We are going down there," he said, to pay a call on the families.
And when his treatment had ended, despite the fact that his treatment had just ended, that‘s exactly what he did. He hugged everyone, he pet the dogs and recalling his oldest brother Joe, the pilot who had been shot down in World War II.
No, Keith. Here's what really happened:
Nice try, Keith.
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.





















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Oberloon, the uninformed......
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:37 ET by BEGRUNTTypical coming from Keefffy's mouth.......Do a little research geez,,,,you have a staff, and yet you babble moronic stuff that could easily be checked. Just makes him look more the moron.
"A nation can suffer it's fool's, but cannot survive the traitor"
Cicero
According to Olbermann, John
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:03 ET by SickofLibsAccording to Olbermann, John Kerry should have won the Medal of Honor, such a hero he was.
Had it been World War II, Kerry ...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:30 ET by SentryDanHad it been World War II, Kerry would have earned himself a firing squad for treason. One day he will pay for his sin.
Remember folks, Freedom isn't Free. It was bought with the blood and sacrifice of the men and women who are serving and who have served in the U.S. Armed Forces.
For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor that the protected will never know.
Also remember folks, that the way to SUPPORT THE TROOPS is to support their mission. Anyone who says that they support the troops but don't support their mission is lying about supporting the troops. And if you want to know, yes I do have a dog in the fight, he is a United States Marine.
Amen, and Amen.
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 12:24 ET by boomerconThis is one Viet Nam vet who will never, ever forgive John Kerry for his criminal accusations against good and patriotic American servicemen, all for the sake of his own advancement.I pray that none of our returning warriors will ever again have to endure the humiliation of being spat upon when arriving back in CONUS.That pain will always remain, even as the bitterness subsides.
I would venture to guess
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:52 ET by ParalegalGoddessI would venture to guess that the average olbermann staffer - aside being on heavy anti-depressants or other pharmaceutical therapy having to work with that assclown - is in their mid 20's and never learned of WWII or Vietnam because when it came time to learn that in history - it was the end of the school year... And I can almost bet the Orange Bastard's beloved Bovine U did not offer a history class.
That being said - had anyone on Fox done the same thing there would be a 59 minute special comment about how said Fox anchor got it wrong "Sir".
History lessons
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:49 ET by UnsaneThe average staffer on said program were probably all taught history in the ninth grade by the coach who handed out super-easy multiple guess/matching/true-false questions on the exams.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Orange Bastard? Is he
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:53 ET by fitzfongOrange Bastard? Is he part of the sash, flute and bowler hat brigade that marches through Ulster in July?
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." -George Best
Olberdork? Having to do research?
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:27 ET by goldenthroatBeGrunt,
You've got to be kidding! Require Olberdork to research his news stories? Why, don't you know he lives by the left-coast, bleeding-heart, "do as I say, not as I do" liberal, socialist motto: "My mind is made up - don't confuse me with the facts!"
He'll never get his facts straight - nor do I believe that he even cares that he does or not. The MSM will never learn!
Like Bugs Bunny once said: What a maroon!
"Inferior people should not be employed!" - Nick Danger, Third Eye
Eh - "shot down" -
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:48 ET by Chris NormanEh - "shot down" - crashed - whatever - details like this mean nothing to Olbermann, who regularly twists facts, descriptions, and quotes to serve his dishonest tirades and provocations.
Heck, in the face of statistics to the contrary, he even tries to claim his show is #1
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
I'm going to say something unusual here.
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:51 ET by Rhymes With RightAs much as I despise UberDouche, I'm willing to give him a break here.
While wrong in the exact details, he was right in the point he was trying to make -- that Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. gave his life in service to his country. That he messed up on the exact details is a relatively venial sin in my book -- though I will note that his error had the effect of UNDERPLAYING the heroism of Lieutenant Kennedy.
Blogging at rhymeswithright.mu.nu
Yeah, but don't think for a
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:51 ET by Chris NormanYeah, but don't think for a New York second that if O'Reilly made the same sort of mistake about a Republican, Olbermann wouldn't use it to mock and deride him.
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Agreed
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:52 ET by Rhymes With RightBut we are better than he is.
Blogging at rhymeswithright.mu.nu
Just holding him to the
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:56 ET by Chris NormanJust holding him to the high standards he sets for others.
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
BATH-TUB-BOY...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:33 ET by danybhoyCN,
You hit 1 of the main points, BathTubBoy would'nt cut any slack to O'Reilly. It's all personal between those 2, & that will never change. But the othe point is that facts don't mean a damn thing to Olby. He does'nt care, he's in the Manhattan/Beltway Bubble, & kept away from the lives that everyday Americans live.
"...How blind can you be, don't you see...
...that the gambler lost all he does not have..."
Nightwish
Dammit, Rhymes,
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:55 ET by R D HelmLOL-You just had to come in here and screw up a perfectly good Olbermann-slamming thread, didn't ya? :-^)
Actually, Joe Jr. was the only one of the Kennedy brothers I have any real respect for, although at least JFK was willing to serve in WWII as a PT boat skipper, which was not exactly a safe assignment.
-Dave
Even when the government tries to kiss you, it is just a prelude to a good screwing. -Neal Boortz
Agreed RWR... I'm a
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:03 ET by JerAgreed RWR...
I'm a Democrat, but a bigger fan of Noel than Olbermann. That said, Noel is being way too picky in this case.
Jer
Jer... Way to
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:12 ET by bigtimerJer...
Way to picky?
Surely you jest...
How so?
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
bt, I know - don't Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:15 ET by Chris Normanbt,
I know - don't Jer and balboa nit pick our comments all the time? For that matter, isn't he nitpicking Noel here?
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Chris... You betcha. Par
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:19 ET by bigtimerChris...
You betcha.
Par for the course isn't it?
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Sure Chris... I'll alert
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:46 ET by JerSure Chris...
I'll alert bal that our jobs as "libs at NB" is simply to nod in agreement with every item blogged or posted by conservatives.
By the way, have you come up with those Limbaugh links yet? I invite you to read the reason article linked by Noel about quashing political dissent. Very informative. "Chilling" even.
Jer
Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:04 ET by Noel SheppardJer,
BTW: You haven't responded to my Reason link and the fact that the White House admitted its error and awarded the Ranks $80,000. You also didn't answer my question about whether you feel the Obama White House will ever admit that it's mistreating town hall protesters and award them moneys?
Now, as to your claim that I'm nitpicking, do you think getting shot down by the enemy is the same as your plane exploding during a test mission taking place in friendly territory? Forgive me -- I DON'T!
Let's assume this was Sean Hannity talking about one of George W. Bush's brothers. Would you cut him the same slack you're cutting Olbermann?
I doubt it.
After all, Olbermann is bar none the most arrogant and pompous person on television today. You might say O'Reilly or Hannity are worse, but AT LEAST they allow people on their respective programs that don't agree with their view. Olbermann does not.
Furthermore, Olbermann depicts himself as the smartest, most-educated, and most professional journalist in the world. He considers himself the next Edward R. Murrow, correct?
As such, when someone so pompous and full of himself makes a mistake, he should offer a correction.
Think he will, or this is just too trivial a mistake in your view? ns
Furthermore, Olbermann
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:15 ET by motherbeltFurthermore, Olbermann depicts himself as the smartest, most-educated,
and most professional journalist in the world. He considers himself the
next Edward R. Murrow, correct?
And after all, Noel, Olbermann, as you yourself pointed out here claimed a long time ago that what he does is "really journalism."
More nitpicking Noel...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:21 ET by acumenFurthermore, Olbermann depicts himself as the smartest, most-educated, and most professional journalist in the world.
It's my understanding that - Olbermann depicts himself as the smartest, most-educated and most professional journalist in the world.....that ever graduated from The College of Agriculture and Life Sciences affiliated with Cornell.
I didn't want NB to overlook Olbermann's heroic educational sacrifice encompassed in the risk he took to his journalistic life by volunteering to go to an Ag school.
Is that a fact, acumen? How
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:28 ET by QueenMumIs that a fact, acumen? How funny! He studied to be a farmer and ends up shoveling manure on MessNBC.
No offense to farmers. Some of my best friends, etc.....
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."
—Margaret Thatcher
Check it out QM
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:03 ET by acumenAnn Coulter spilled the beans on Olbie - Olberman's Plastic Ivy
Relevant paragraphs -
Olbermann relentlessly attacked low-level Bush administration employee Monica Goodling for not going to a name-dropping college, saying -- approximately 1 million times -- that she got her law degree "by sending 100 box tops to Religious Lunatic University."
I would venture to say that the students at Goodling's law school at Regent University are far more impressive than those at the Cornell agriculture school -- the land-grant, non-Ivy League school Keith attended.
I wouldn't mention it, except that Olbermann savages anyone who didn't go to an impressive college. As it happens, he didn't go to an impressive college, either.
If you've ever watched any three nights of his show, you know that Olbermann went to Cornell. But he always forgets to mention that he went to the school that offers classes in milking and bovine management.
Indeed, Keith is constantly lying about his nonexistent "Ivy League" education, boasting to Playboy magazine, for example: "My Ivy League education taught me how to cut corners, skim books and take an idea and write 15 pages on it, and also how to work all day at the Cornell radio station and never actually go to class."
Except Keith didn't go to the Ivy League Cornell; he went to the Old MacDonald Cornell.
The real Cornell, the School of Arts and Sciences (average SAT: 1,325; acceptance rate: 1 in 6 applicants), is the only Ivy League school at Cornell and the only one that grants a Bachelor of Arts degree.
Keith went to an affiliated state college at Cornell, the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences (average SAT: about that of pulling guards at the University of South Carolina; acceptance rate: 1 of every 1 applicants).
Thanks, acumen. Ann cuts
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:06 ET by QueenMumThanks, acumen. Ann cuts through the manure again. Delicious.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."
—Margaret Thatcher
QM
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:22 ET by acumenIndeed she does.....
acumen... Information:
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:08 ET by bigtimeracumen...
Information: Priceless
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
BT
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:31 ET by acumenI'm still waiting for Levin the Great One to share the sordid details of Olbies sexual perversions as related to Mark by several former girlfriends of Olbie. When Olbie gets under Mark's skin, Levin keeps threatening to reveal the disturbing details but nada so far.....
On second thought, I'm not sure I want to know any more details about that sicko. He's already screwed up my enjoyment of football....
acumen... LOL...Thumb-tack
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:35 ET by bigtimeracumen...
LOL...Thumb-tacks was enough for me.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Don't scoff, acumen...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:21 ET by JerHave you ever had to trudge to a barn with a lantern and a bucket to milk cows at 4:00 a.m. like I did at my grandma's farm? Now, that's a profile in courage. If you had walked in my shoes, well...you would have bullsh!t all over them.
Jer
→ Wow, Jer!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:26 ET by Cool ArrowY'all had a family farm, and a barn, and your own cows?
Must've been nice, growing up rich like that. ;-)
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Cool...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:12 ET by JerWe called it a "barn". Others might refer to it as a "shed"--with some hay spread over the dirt floor and barely room enough for the herd of eight cows. At least it was bigger than the outhouse.
This was where my mom had grown up and lived until she moved to Nashville during WWII. My sister and I would spend several weeks there every summer when we were kids. Loved it.
Jer
Jer...know you weren't
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:27 ET by bigtimerJer...know you weren't talking to me...but...
You got that right.
You're on a roll today...you have me laughing once again...
Somethings wrong with this picture.
Btw...I thought you were leaving forever.... ;-)
I know...you finally got that garbage all taken out eh?
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
bt...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:01 ET by JerThe wife's outta town...I've managed to get half of the garage cleaned out...so I'm taking a break from my break. I'll disappear in a couple of days.
[Thanks for the reminder about the garbage.]
Jer
Uh-Oh...your wife is on
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:10 ET by bigtimerUh-Oh...your wife is on computer control...it was either her or the PC.
She's stuck with you through thick and thin so far, garbage in, garbage out...now I see why you're back...you're being a sly one. ;-)
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
LOL Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:56 ET by acumenSorry for the late response. Had to take care of some biz....
Worked in water quality research at NCSU for about ten years which involved among other projects, camping out in pastures at various dairies to monitor ph, nitrates, etc in streams used for waste discharge by milking parlors before, during and after milking so I can definitely relate to your moooooving retrospection.
But your correlation between Olbie's questionable choice of a journalism(?) school and bullshit was udderly hysterical.
Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:44 ET by well99Piece of cake.Worked for a rancher who had about 5 milk cows.Always remember the golden rule.Put the bucket between your legs when milking.If you want to have children later in life.Now going out and doing hand lines early in the morning,That is work.Especially in wheat.Back OT:I disagree about it being nitpicking.It doesnt diminish what Joe Jr did.It took courage to do it.Olby is a pompous a$$.So he should be called when he puts his foot in his mouth.
well99...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:00 ET by Jerwell99...
First, (and foremost), I think your Sox may be in trouble unless Lowell stays healthy. On the other hand, it could be another Cards/Sox October Classic match-up. My birds have a big score to settle with your guys.
Second, I'm certainly not trivializing Kennedy's heroics, but I do believe Olberman's gaffe was relatively minor. I hope he corrects his error.
Jer
Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:16 ET by well99That would be cool but I think the Yankees might have something to say about it. I understand you weren’t trivializing it. I am just giving him credit for the act along with all the pilots that volunteered for the project. My deal is that Olby acts like he knows it all and a lot of times lies or uses lousy resources so when he gets caught he should have his feet held to the fire.
Noel...Agree in part. But also disagree...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:54 ET by JerBTW: You haven't responded to my Reason link and the fact that the White House admitted its error and awarded the Ranks $80,000. You also didn't answer my question about whether you feel the Obama White House will ever admit that it's mistreating town hall protesters and award them moneys?
Hang on, Noel. I can't nitpick about your nitpicking on this thread, read and recommend the Reason article [as I had already done so], watch a golf tournament, and post a meaningful comment about the Rank case, all within a very limited amount of time.
Now, as to your claim that I'm nitpicking, do you think getting shot down by the enemy is the same as your plane exploding during a test mission taking place in friendly territory? Forgive me -- I DON'T!
No, I don't think it's the same. Nor do I think it's the same as Joe Jr. being blown to bits during the actual bombing mission. Forgive me, Noel...but did you sufficiently research the facts?
Let's assume this was Sean Hannity talking about one of George W. Bush's brothers. Would you cut him the same slack you're cutting Olbermann?
I doubt it.
You're wrong. I would absolutely cut him the same slack--and my opinions of Hannity and Olbermann are virtually identical.
After all, Olbermann is bar none the most arrogant and pompous person on television today. You might say O'Reilly or Hannity are worse, but AT LEAST they allow people on their respective programs that don't agree with their view. Olbermann does not.
We've had this conversation before, and I still agree with you that Olbermann should allow opposing views on his show.
Furthermore, Olbermann depicts himself as the smartest, most-educated, and most professional journalist in the world. He considers himself the next Edward R. Murrow, correct?
I don't really know. I don't watch him, because I don't like him. But I think he probably does have a Murrow complex.
As such, when someone so pompous and full of himself makes a mistake, he should offer a correction.
I think a correction would be in order. Pompousness has nothing to do with it.
Think he will, or this is just too trivial a mistake in your view?
The mistake was relatively trivial, but I have no idea whether he will or will not correct it.
Jer
→ Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:04 ET by Cool ArrowTaken to its extreme, it can be reported that Gen. Benedict Arnold, an American Officer, was killed by the enemy.
It can also be argued that any statue erected to him merits a horse with its front feet off the ground.
That's just an extreme, but it's a good reason to expect honesty in reporting.
Unless, of course, you're willing to concede Pat Tillman's family had no business knowing how their son died.
Maybe you're right. Maybe facts aren't now, nor ever were, important to Liberals. It's more important how they feeeel.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Cool, my friend, your
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:51 ET by JerCool, my friend, your Benedict Arnold example is so extreme it creates a whole new genre of non sequitor argumentation.
I of course expect honesty in reporting. I also fully expect the occasional reportorial errors. Do you believe Olbermann deliberately distorted the facts and was being willfully dishonest in this instance?
I will concede Tillman's family had every right to know precisely how their son died. Will you concede the Kennedy family knows how Joe Jr. died? More important, will you concede Noel misstated the facts when he claimed Joe Jr. was on a training mission?
"Maybe you're right. Maybe facts aren't now, nor ever were, important to Liberals. It's more important how they feeeel."
Classic Coolism. :-)
Jer
→ Thanks Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:01 ET by Cool ArrowI didn't know if you'd ever respond to one of my pesky posts. I've tried a few times, sort of as a "welcome back"
I honestly don't know whether to chalk this one up as ineptness on Olbermann's part, or exaggeration for the sake of lionizing a legacy.
One of my uncles died during WWII. He was killed in a car crash in his hometown while he was on leave. Another uncle died in real combat, at Normandy.
I honestly didn't know, as you claim, that Joe Jr. died in a real combat mission. But then again, I never tried to represent his death one way or the other.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Cool... I did respond
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:27 ET by JerCool...
I did respond [including a compliment]. You must have overlooked it.
Jer
Except for a minor detail
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:09 ET by Rhymes With RightThat being that Arnold, like Teddy, died an old man in his bead after betraying the US. The difference, of course, is that Teddy was buried among our nation's heroes instead of becoming a byword for for betrayer.
Blogging at rhymeswithright.mu.nu
→ OK Rhymes.
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:13 ET by Cool ArrowBut I'm betting it was British socialized healthcare that killed Arnold.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
you are so right Cool
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 22:32 ET by candanceHe was the hero of the Battle at Saratoga and served as acting mayor of Philadelphia following Monmouth. Sadly he died in the middle of the war. He totally deserves a statue!
Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:42 ET by MrShyFirst...
...my opinions of Hannity and Olbermann are virtually identical.
Then...
...I still agree with you that Olbermann should allow opposing views on his show.
How do you reconcile this? That difference between the two is major, and yet you hold the same opinion of them. You'll reconcile it with liberal logic, so I guess I'm just curious what that will be.
Shy
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:31 ET by JerJust what is liberal logic? I don't want to disappoint you.
Jer
Jer
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:16 ET by MrShyDamned if I know. :p
So anyway, how do you reconcile this? You say your opinion is identical of the two, but there's something glaringly different between them.
EDIT: Hello??
Shy... I appreciate the
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:43 ET by JerShy...
I appreciate the airing of opposing viewpoints, and I will give credit to Hannity and O'Reilly and others for doing so. But it is a minor factor at best in forming my opinion about either Hannity or Olbermann. For example, do you have a higher opinion of Chris Matthews because he likewise allows guests who are ideological adversaries. I bet it's a marginal consideration--if at all--in shaping your view of Matthews.
It's a simple issue with me. Reflexively partisan ideologues don't impress me, and I certainly don't care for the scorched earth methods of media blowhards of the left or the right. You are free to disagree, but I put Hannity and Olbermann [as well as a good many others] squarely in those categories--thus, the reason for my statement about "virtually identical opinions" regarding both gentlemen.
Jer
Jer
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 08:36 ET by Noel SheppardJer,
If I might butt in, YES, I have a FAR greater opinion of Matthews -- AND Maddow for that matter -- than Olbermann due to them inviting folks with opposing views on their respective programs. FAR!
Olbermann is a pompous coward not at all to be lumped together with virtually anyone else on television. That you don't see this and admit it makes me respect you less. ns
Noel...
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:00 ET by JerI'm truly sorry you feel that way, Noel. As you know, I've always had the greatest respect for you, and have complimented and praised you on numerous occasions both publicly and privately.
I've also slammed Olbermann on the NB threads many times. Which conservative pundits have you ripped into with anything close to the level of my criticisms of Olbermann?
Jer
Jer
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:07 ET by Noel SheppardJer,
You asked a question concerning Matthews. I answered it honestly. There is a difference between Olbermann and EVERYBODY ELSE on television. You choose to not see it. Have you bashed Olbermann? Sure. But not as much as you bash O'Reilly, Hannity, and Rush.
As for me attacking conservative talk show hosts, do you think that would be a good thing for a conservative writer to do at a conservative website? You get to comment here with total anonymity without any concern over how your comments might impact your career. I don't. That should be obvious. ns
Noel
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:26 ET by JerAnd I gave an honest opinion about Olbermann and Hannity. Regrettably, for doing so, your respect for me has diminished. Even though, as a "liberal", one would expect me to be much less critical of Olbermann. However, if anything I've been harsher in my comments about him [and other lefty pundits like Mike Malloy] than I have about Sean or Rush. (O'Reilly is another matter. O'Reilly is a fraud and I don't like frauds.)
By the way, I was listening to Hannity for years here in Atlanta before you even knew he existed. KO...I've seen very little--but enough to know I don't care for him and have no desire to watch his show.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 11:37 ET by MrShy"I appreciate the airing of opposing viewpoints, and I will give credit to Hannity and O'Reilly and others for doing so. But it is a minor factor at best in forming my opinion about either Hannity or Olbermann."
You *appreciate* the air of opposing viewpoints? It is a *minor factor* -- at best -- in forming your opinion? In grading scorched earth methods and how ideologically dominating and, say, manipulative/persuasive political talking heads on TV shows are, whether their 1-hour shows are complete echo-chamber circuses vs. having on dissenting/opposing views doesn't factor in greatly with you?
Come on, get real, Jer. How can that be some minor thing to you? I don't get it.
Shy
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 12:17 ET by JerBecause having guests of opposing views is a 'production format' issue which--although I may prefer its usage--has little to do with my opinion of the quality of the individual pundit. Besides, often the guest is merely a foil or easy ideological target who can be played off of by the interviewer. O'Reilly will often engage in this practice as a means of "proving" the philosophical silliness of the guest. Challenge, berate, expose...and then chest-thump your superiority. Radio hosts of the left and right make the tactic a staple of their talk shows.
Chris Matthews is routinely eviscerated on the NB threads. Rarely do I read a comment praising him for the allowance of contrarian perspectives. Have you?
Hope you "get it" a little better now. It's not that difficult to understand.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 14:44 ET by MrShyChris Matthews and O'Reilly both have contrarian perspectives. Do you hold a similar opinion of both of them?
Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 21:24 ET by JerI have been answering your questions. It's your turn to answer mine.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:09 ET by MrShyNo, I have not praised Matthews for having on guests with opposing views. For that, I will, and it's certainly good that he does. To echo Noel, it's precisely why "one of these things is not like the other."
While the complete MSDNC line-up makes me squirm, if I was more centrist (as you always claim to be -- I don't, though I'm no "staunch" anything) I would definitely hold a similar opinion about O'Reilly and, say, Matthews or Maddow (who very seldom has dissenting viewpoints on her show, the times I've watched. She has a stable of solid liberal progressives that are regulars, it seems.)
So, here goes:
Chris Matthews and O'Reilly both have contrarian perspectives. Do you hold a similar opinion of both of them?
Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:14 ET by JerI have noted many times here: I can't stand O'Reilly.
As far as Matthews, I liked him better when he was more of a centrist Democrat (he claims to have voted for Bush in one of the elections--I'm not sure which one), but I find him less appealing since he became an Obama sychophant.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:22 ET by MrShySo you don't hold even a closely similar opinion of O'Reilly and Matthews.... nor of Hannity and Matthews? You find the two more-right leaning talking heads far worse, when considering all three have on varying guests?
EDIT: The current incarnation of Matthews, btw -- for that matter, of them all.
I think we're on the verge
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:26 ET by JerI think we're on the verge of over-analyzing this issue, Shy. It's a subject that doesn't lend itself to simple calibrations.
I put O'Reilly in a separate category. He's a fraud.
At one time, my opinion of Matthews would be much higher than it was of Hannity. Now, it's pretty close. As I've said several times, the allowance of opposing guests is not a major consideration--although from a format perspective, I prefer it.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:32 ET by MrShyWhat makes O'Reilly a "fraud" and, well, Olbermann not? Or you think he's equally one, as well? If it's only O'Reilly you put in this category, what basis do you have for a complete dismissal of him, that's unique from quite a few that are complete jokes on TV?
It's mind-boggling, Jer, only because you steadfastly present yourself as hardly a liberal.
Secondly, I accidently changed this to an O'Reilly vs. Olbermann thing, when you originally pitted Hannity vs. Olbermann. So, a follow-up -- or the correct question, really -- is do you hold a similar opinion of Hannity and Matthews?
Good grief, Shy. What is
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:38 ET by JerGood grief, Shy.
What is your opinion of O'Reilly vs. Maddow; Hannity vs. Stephanopolous; Limbaugh vs. Buckley; Matthews vs. Beck; the Jets vs. the Giants? Why or why not?
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:43 ET by MrShySeriously, what is fraudulent about O'Reilly? You said it, so explain it. It's absurd.
You clearly -- by not answering -- confirmed that he's in some special category outside all the others, and as you can see from GG's reaction, and many that are following this thread, I'm sure, unless you find several on both sides to be frauds, this opinion is an eye-opener.
Well Shy
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:45 ET by general companyHe wont be able to refute much, so he might tell you about the sexual harrasment charge. Least thats the best I ever got.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
I've never discussed the
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:57 ET by JerI've never discussed the sexual harrassment charge g c. Don't start bending the facts. If that's what you "got", it wasn't from me.
Jer
Ok, sorry
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:12 ET by general companyMust be mistaken,
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
No problem, g c... As you
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:14 ET by JerNo problem, g c...
As you well know, I'm no fan of O"Reilly. But I've never raised that issue.
Jer
Yea no kidding
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:19 ET by general companyAs you well know, I'm no fan of O"Reilly.
Comparing him to Oberdud is pretty dammed ridiculous, even for you.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
g.c.
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:28 ET by MrShyGenCo, he's doing worse than that, if you can believe it. O'Reilly -- at least at this moment, in everyone's current incarnation ( ? ) -- is in a fraud class all his own.
I know, it's beyond the pale. BOR's somewhat of a character, sure, but even to me he's no where NEAR as laughable as several others on TV -- even Beck is more of a character who's hard to listen to, honestly IMO, but just his style I mean.
O'Reilly has on guests -- quite a lot -- who offer the counterpoint, and he always ends segments telling the audience "we tried to contact so-and-so to come on the show". Olbermann runs an overt propaganda outfit for a solid hour with zero pretense of trying to come off as any sort of source for credible information or analysis. Yet, Jer still finds him to be a notch above. Or possibly more.
Shy
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:33 ET by JerI also put Rush a few notches above O'Reilly and Olbermann. So what?
I try my very best to state honest, consistent opinions. Do you still believe I am intellectually dishonest, and that I pose as a centrist and post reasonable-sounding comments to conceal my actual far-left views? That's the gist of your previous accusations. Do you still feel the same way?
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:40 ET by MrShyI think you definitely do pose as a centrist, but you're simply not one. You're not far left, no. Perhaps O'Reilly does have some element(s) that simply rub you the wrong way.
But you're incapable of answering, "yes, O'Reilly's in his own class" that does not include Olbermann, but then here you're saying Rush is a few notches above "O'Reilly and Olbermann", making it sound like you have them both in this class.
Not sure why you didn't say, earlier, "yes, they're both the same for me." Instead, you yada'ed a whole "well, if Olbermann continues...".
No not quite
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:50 ET by general companyThey dont make the argument, they just make up the rest of it. Notice not a single objection to what they actualy say,,,,just the so called "tone"?
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
Well, g c...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:58 ET by JerYou obviously haven't read my comments in the past where I've objected to both tone and content.
I think even MrShy would agree with that. It's just that he thinks I'm lying when I do so in order to fraudulently portray myself as a centrist.
Jer
Sure I have
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:01 ET by general companyStill dont know your objection to any of it though, nore how you would fix it?
So whats new with you?
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
Very simple. I object to
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:13 ET by JerVery simple. I object to deliberate distortions or reckless inaccuracies and half-truths in order to advance political and/or ideological agendas.
Jer
Jer
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:34 ET by MrShyWell then, there's simply no reason to *not* (EDIT) have Olberman -- and he's the real red flag here, Jer -- at the top of your list, and in his own class, if you're a centrist.
No one blatantly advances a political/idological agenda like that man. Matthews certainly did, too (as we've covered countless times), all throughout 2008... shilling -- no, make that, oozing with love -- for Obama/Dems, along with a host of others.
O'Reilly, for conservatives/Republicans, doesn't come close to this. Instead, HE'S the fraud of the lot. You see it that way, and that concerns me.
O'Reilly constantly holds
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:47 ET by JerO'Reilly constantly holds himself out to be ideologically neutral. It's absolute horsesh!t, and it concerns me that you can't see it or acknowledge it. If Olbermnn is doing the same to anywhere near the extent that O'Reilly does, then I will gladly put him [and anyone else who does likewise] in the same category.
Jer
Jer
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:58 ET by MrShyO'Reilly constantly holds himself out to be ideologically neutral...
And the others don't? Give me a break. They ALL do. That's the crux of why you see him as a fraud above all others??
You've been exclusively watching O'Reilly obsessively (you make it sound) for close to a decade. I also asked you why, earlier, but you didn't answer. What might explain your skewed sense that he's being more self righteous about being neutral -- when they ALL claim this a lot on their shows, their ads/promos, etc. -- is that you're watching HIM so much.
As to your question in another post, I watch BOR a bit more than Olbie and Chrissy, but a bit, literally. I don't watch any of them that regularly, and I do flip channels during his slot and during the 8:00-10:00 period to get a vibe from each of them.
Olbie sickens me as O'Reilly appears to sicken you, which is exactly why a 2-3 minute bite of him is all I need to watch to know what I'm dealing with.
Shy...
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 01:02 ET by JerI do not like either one of them! Now, let me hear you say: "I, MrShy, do not like either one of them either."
Jer
Well actualy Jer
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 08:27 ET by general companyO'Reilly constantly holds himself out to be ideologically neutral.
He is, and it chaps me maybe more then you.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
general company...
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 16:59 ET by JerSince you're a big O'Reilly fan, tell me the names of the Democrats he has endorsed for office. I'll help you out: NONE. But he doesn't make political endorsements you may say. No, that's what he has claimed, and it's a lie. He has endorsed at least four Republicans that I can name off hand. But you should already know their indentities since you watch him regularly.
Jer
Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:53 ET by JerDo you know if Olbermann still holds himself out as non-partisan, like O'Reilly continues to do?
And, you think I "pose" as a centrist, but I'm really not one? To whom would you compare me? O'Reilly? Evan Bayh? Bill Clinton? Chris Matthews? Olbermann? Leibermann? What views do I hold which put me farther to the left that I represent?
Please give your reasons also.
Jer
Well, from the Charlie Rose
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:17 ET by MrShyWell, from the Charlie Rose appearance you mentioned, and then the very recent promo that was done by MSDNC about him, that NB covered, where they dress him up to be fair and balanced, why would I have any reason to think otherwise? Of course he still holds himself out as non-partisan. What, he would suddenly not and come out of the left-loon closet, suddenly? And yes, it's an utterly deranged, left-loon closet.
I would compare you to a lot of liberals that I know, sorry. And I base this on several factors/characteristics I've gotten to know about you, AND several stands you've taken that you and I have butted heads over here on NB.
But, I will admit that I'm no big believer in centrism (word?) or being an "Independent". There's a good reason this country is founded -- and most others, too -- on two basic ideologies, both of which do sort of transcend the type of people we are and the way we think and act/react.
So, Shy,,,
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:33 ET by JerI would compare you to a lot of liberals that I know, sorry. And I base this on several factors/characteristics I've gotten to know about you, AND several stands you've taken that you and I have butted heads over here on NB.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to share some of those "factors/characteristics/stands".
Also, are you saying you would have more respect for me if I [for just one example] didn't support the Bush/Cheney anti-terrorism and enhanced interrogation policies--since many leftists don't? Or are you saying I'm lying when I have expressed support [as part of a deceitful effort to further authenticate my phony centrist credentials?
Jer
I wish we knew in detail what O'Reilly can do with..
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:57 ET by shawn228.....a loofah.
"I swear sometimes the self-appointed moral police are as obnoxious and demanding of big government interference as "environmentalist" gun control advocates, labor unions and trial lawyers"~fitzfong
Shy... An "eye-opener"?
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:53 ET by JerShy...
An "eye-opener"? I've been consistently stating that very opinion on numerous occasions here for over two years now and gave my reasons several times. You'll just have to check the archives. Hint: Think about the reason you called me a fraud several months ago.
Olbermann made a fraudulent representation when he told Charley Rose he didn't favor either major party--or some words to that effect.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:01 ET by MrShyOkay, so according to your last paragraph, Olbermann is certainly just as much a fraud as you find O'Reilly to be. We can agree on that, right?
If Olbermann continues to
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:03 ET by JerIf Olbermann continues to hold himself out in the manner he suggested to Rose, then my answer would be yes. But I don't watch Olbermann's show.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:21 ET by MrShyMore past (Matthews used to be this-that, but now...) and future (if Olbermann continues to....) tense from the can't-really-directly-respond Jer.
Anyway, your answer is "no" on that.
Was O'Reilly not so bad one time? Or worse? All we know from Jer is, guy's a complete fraud. And go research all my threads in the vast NB archives for my reasonings.
Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:41 ET by JerIs it possible for you to respond to a question without posting a bald-face lie? If not, stay the hell away from me. I was doing my best to accommodate you, and all you can do is start flaming me.
Jer
Jer...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:35 ET by Georgia GirlSigning off and saw your comment. I had to laugh. We never over-analyze things on here. ;)
Why do you consider O'Reilly a fraud? I'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out. I better get off here while the Kennedy curse is at bay. I've had a rough night, in case you didn't hear. LOL.
Night, guys.
GG
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:50 ET by MrShyHow've you been? Meant to say hi and respond to you, in another thread, but been crazed.
And what rough night? I've been out of the loop on a lot of stuff.... ?
EDIT: And yes, GG, that was a funny one. To debate and discuss stuff -- on a blog, to get to the truth and the nitty gritty -- is to analyze it, and analyze it... and, well, analyze it again, if needed. But I can see here, that he's reflexively going to his defense mechanism with that one. Olbermann, far and away, is the most despicable ideological, leftist-hack, propagandizing fraud -- guy came from ESPN, no less -- of any political talking head on TV we've ever seen.
Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:53 ET by Georgia GirlOh, you don't want to know! You'll happen upon it sometime...but all is well now. I think there are too many Kennedy blogs on here. I think deep down, it's making many of us anxious and irritable! ;)
Your turn, Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:01 ET by JerYour turn. What is my reflexive defense mechanism?
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:15 ET by MrShyThat you, instead of addressing my question(s), went and "accused" me of over-analyzing something on NB. That's exactly what we're all here to do. If we truly believe what we believe, we are more than happy to deconstruct it all the way, and back everything up. It was very funny that you said that.
Wrong, Shy...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:26 ET by JerYou are flat wrong, Shy. Please retract that comment. I did address your question...and have been patiently doing so even though the subject had become very repetitous and I had already stated my views yesterday.
Furthermore, I said we are on the verge of over-analyzing the issue. But I went ahead and answered your questions anyway.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:43 ET by MrShyTrue, you did say "we". Either way, it's still a silly thing to say, and my post that took us to the possible "over analytical" precipice did get you to finally say, on this thread -- granted, yes, I don't follow everyone religiously all the time, so did not know before this -- that O'Reilly's a fraud like no other, in your eyes.
I'm trying to really see your logic in putting O'Reilly in a category all his own that doesn't even include Olbermann. Many of us are now, too, as you can see here.
Shy
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:45 ET by JerSee if you can follow this, Shy: I have watched BOR hundreds of times for close to a decade. I have never watched more than ten minutes of Olbermann and only did that on a couple of occasions.
Jer
Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 23:56 ET by MrShyOkay, why would you watch a fraud hundreds of times for close to a decade?
And no, no bald-faced lying here what so ever, when I said you were not directly answering. When you reply with subjectives like "well, Matthew used to be this" and "if Olbermann conitnues", regarding who these people are to your knowledge, in the present, I wouldn't find your answers to be indirect. I never said you were not answering, you were, but you were dancing a lot with what-ifs about who Matthews and Olbermann were, or could become. That's indirect, Jer. Sorry if that fact upsets you.
Shy
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:08 ET by JerI qualified my responses by necessity, Shy. That's known as being intellectually honest. Matthews shifted his philosophy--or at least his expressed ideological perspective aired on his show--and it is on that basis which I do and should form my opinions. Do you think I should analyze and make comparisons regarding David Horowitz by his flaming liberalism several decades ago?...or by his subsequent conservatism?
Jer
Jer
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:31 ET by MrShyJeez, perhaps this has all been a wasted exercise, Jer, with your nugget above that it's only O'Reilly you've watched and studied for years and years.
What say you now turn your nightly TV-viewing chores to the clowns on MSDNC, and I guess in a year we can revisit all of this.
Gee, Shy... I've only
Wed, 09/02/2009 - 00:39 ET by JerGee, Shy...
I've only noted that fact [re watching O'Reilly extensively...almost never watching Olbermann] probably 20 times over the past couple of years. Pay attention. Do you watch them both regularly?
Jer
→ Jer
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:25 ET by Cool ArrowLiberal logic is anything you feel it should be.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Cool...
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:46 ET by JerHmm...I've given it some thought, and I feel you may have a good point.
Jer
Jer!
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 08:41 ET by Georgia GirlThere is hope for you. :)
You're back!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:52 ET by KC MulvilleHaven't seen you in a while. Good to see you back!
It will probably be
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:29 ET by JerIt will probably be temporary, KC, but thanks just the same. Whenever I checked in over the past few months, I would make it a point to read your always-interesting perspective on the topic at hand.
Jer
Excellent taste!
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 07:22 ET by KC MulvillePerhaps you can explain to me what the hell I was ever talking about? It all escapes me ...
Heck, I don't know
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:02 ET by JerHeck, I don't know either. I just thought it was interesting.
Jer
→ Jer, KC
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:04 ET by Cool ArrowLet's get back on topic.
Jer was defending Olbermann's assertion that JFK died of lead poisoning.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Whoa, CA
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 12:37 ET by KC MulvilleNo he wasn't. He was explaining the French Revolution.
→ Sorry KC
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 12:41 ET by Cool ArrowI walked in after Jer said "Sire, the peasants have no cornish hens"
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
No Cool...not "cornish hens"
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:05 ET by JerI was actually referring to "corny shins"--a relatively rare, but extraordinarily painful, medical condition of the late 18th century which caused unsightly pox-like postules to appear on the victim's limbs, and primarily afflicting the unwashed lower classes.
Jer
→ Thanks Jer
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:12 ET by Cool ArrowMy wife suffered from that. And you know what they say?
Hell hath no fury as a woman's corns.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Well, shuck "em.
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:38 ET by JerWell, shuck 'em.
Jer
That's a penalty
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:40 ET by KC MulvilleCool Arrow ... personal foul ... Painful Pun ... fifteen yards and a loss of down ...
It's OK, KC
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:42 ET by Cool ArrowI was relieved at not having to repeat Marie Antoinette's response after being told there were no more hens.
Now that one's painful.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Gross, dude. "I spent a
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:49 ET by fitzfongGross, dude.
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." -George Best
→ Thanks fitz
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:53 ET by Cool ArrowI resemble that remark.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
bt...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:26 ET by JerBecause Olbermann slightly misstated the actual cause of Joe Jr.'s death and also understated his heroism by failing to more thoroughly report the nature and objective of his mission.
But it was just a short-hand reference, and the error was de minimis. As Rhymes said, in this case, Olbermann should be cut some slack.
Jer
I disagree Jer... Olbie
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:33 ET by bigtimerI disagree Jer...
Olbie pretends to be a real live news-reporter of the utmost knowledge and 1st class to-boot....he should have done his homework before he opened his yapper and started his usual leftist drivel...then again he NEVER does.
He's always spewing his hate-filled leftist agenda-driven BS.
Perfect example of why he is getting nowhere in his pretend to himself great ratings.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Cuting Olbermann some slack
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:44 ET by NotFondOfLibsSo "bt" thinks Olberman should be cut some slack because he "slightly misstated the actual cause" of Joseph Kennedy Jr's death. Slightly isn't the proper word for it. Kennedy was in a plane that was loaded with Torpex that was to be remote control guided into a German position in France. The plane exploded on it's own before Kennedy and the other pilot were able to bail out. This is just another case where Olbermann doesn't know what he is talking about and is depending on his audience to not know either. A credible journalist would have done his research before going on the air with such a load of baloney, but this is typical MSM trying to make their democrat heroes larger in death than they were in life.
NFOL... NO bt doesn't
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:49 ET by bigtimerNFOL...
NO bt doesn't think that whatsoever...it is Jer that thinks that...you may want to read the posts above some to clarify my point. ;-)
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Wrong, NotFondOfLibs... b
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:51 ET by JerWrong, NotFondOfLibs...
bt does not think Olbermann should be cut any slack. Rhymes and I are the ones who think he should. To paraphrase your post: do your research before commenting.
Jer
Jer.... Thank you for
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:54 ET by bigtimerJer....
Thank you for setting the record straight.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
You're welcome, bt...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:03 ET by JerYou're welcome, bt...
That's what I'm here for. ;-)
Jer
Spew Alert!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:14 ET by bigtimerYeah right Jer...
At least you have me laughing with that statement...gotta give ya that.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
What olbermann thinks
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 10:51 ET by NotFondOfLibsWell excuse me for misunderstanding which of you thinks olbermann should be given some slack. The fact remains that olbermann did not state the correct facts about the death of Joseph Kennedy Jr. Why should he be given any slack for failing to take about 5 minutes to look up some biographical information about Mr. Kennedy?
Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:07 ET by acumen"I'm a Democrat..."
Damn, you sure had me fooled. You must be an old-school Dem. You've got way too much common sense to be a part of what the Dem party has since become. There is a term for wised up Democrats - Republicans. Why you clingin' bro?
acumen
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:01 ET by JerFear...they know my name and where I live.
Jer
Good one Jer
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:22 ET by acumenThat damn snitch website.....
acumen... Yep...something
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:55 ET by bigtimeracumen...
Yep...something smells fishy alright....
...Where's that Linda Douglass?
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Jer
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 13:03 ET by well99Sorry Jer.I sold you out.I couldnt help it.They knew my weakness for some reason.They sent me oddles of KFC coupons.If you need any email me at IloveKFC@WingsnandChickenBreastrock.com
well99
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 12:26 ET by JerO, the infamy!...Betrayed for 30 pieces of fried chicken wings.
Didn't I read something about KFC announcing a new menu item--a "sandwich" in which a couple of pieces of fried chicken are used instead of bread. That would be a nice cholesterol-buster for me to try out.
Jer
Granted
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:15 ET by doug1950It may seem like a small mistake. However, this man's profession is to deal in facts, not conjecture, not rumor, not gossip. Details is the mortar of his profession. What else has he to do but to check the facts. I do not give him a pass on this nor do I give a pass to anyone else who calls themselves a journalist but are too lazy to do the research. It is lazy, sloppy and extremely unprofessional. We would deride someone else in another profession for taking the easy road. This is a sign of our times. Children do not have to worry about failing or passing because there are no grades given. It may after all hurt their little egos if they get a failing grade. Would you want a surgeon who was sloppy or did not care about details operate on you or a loved one. I don't think so. When we give people a "pass" we are not holding them to a standard we have come to expect or deserve from a professional. Being a military man, we lived or died by little details. Missing a small detail would get you killed or seriously injured. This wormy little pos gets a pass every single night he is on the television. His mere presence is an insult and an affront to real professionals everywhere. He should have been fired long ago for his antics and sloppy work. He belongs in a damn nuthouse, not on national television playing a newsman.
lying media!!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:51 ET by Patriot IISee the problem is, never tell the truth when you can pad it, embellish it, work it, rewrite it, change it, throw the real story out and make something up.......geez whats the fun in telling the truth? Those of us that are intelligent, mature, honest people.....call a piece of pondscum like this a liar!!! see how easy the truth comes LOL
lying media!!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:58 ET by Patriot IISee the problem is, never tell the truth when you can pad it, embellish it, work it, rewrite it, change it, throw the real story out and make something up.......geez whats the fun in telling the truth? Those of us that are intelligent, mature, honest people.....call a piece of pondscum like this a liar!!! see how easy the truth comes LOL
Is that sort of like "fake,
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:47 ET by motherbeltWhile wrong in the exact details, he was right in the point he was
trying to make -- that Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. gave his life in service
to his country.
Is that sort of like "fake, but accurate"?
If he didn't know, he should have just said "who died in WW II."
Noel... Thank you. It
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:55 ET by bigtimerNoel...
Thank you.
It does get mind-bending listening to these imbecile leftists try to change real history....constantly.
Appreciate that great video from the History Channel as well.
Joe Kennedy Jr. was one of the few I ever respected that I have read about....still is.
Technology, drones etc are still improving thanks to men like him...just like Waters was saying, he never saw television, until he saw that...imagine folks what that had to have been like...heros and sacrifice are what has kept millions safe to do this day.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Holding Olbermann to the
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 15:56 ET by Kat Outta the BagHolding Olbermann to the same standards that you would a real journalist is not fair to him. You might as well ask a first grader to take the SAT, for cryin' out loud.
kat, If Olbermann saw
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:04 ET by Chris Normankat,
If Olbermann saw that you said he wasn't a real "journalist", you would end up as the subject of his patented "Special Comment".
By the way, I wonder if Olbie's "Special Comments" ride to the studio in a short yellow bus? :)
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Chris--
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:08 ET by Kat Outta the BagI'm not familiar with Olbie's "Special Comments" since I'm not one of the 5 people who still watch his show. :-)
Ah - that's why we have
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:11 ET by Chris NormanAh - that's why we have NewsBusters. Like I said yesterday, NewsBusters is the tape recorder that records the sound of the falling tree in the otherwise empty forest. :)
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Agreed. I get most of my
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:14 ET by Kat Outta the BagAgreed. I get most of my news from here and Fox now.
Tape recording trees
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:10 ET by QueenMumWhich reminds me of a joke I heard recently:
If a tree falls in the forest, how many liberals does it take to fund the mental health therapy for the rest of the trees? (Courtesy of: "Get Fuzzy")
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."
—Margaret Thatcher
the same could be said
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:11 ET by katainkentfor the entire network. MSNBC should be dropped from the rolls of media outlets and get the official title of DNC Network News. There is nothing ambiguous about the coverage coming from this station at all.
___________________________________________
"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller" Barack Obama (Dr. In Chief)
Hoist on his own petard.
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:50 ET by motherbeltHolding Olbermann to the same standards that you would a real journalist is not fair to him
Well, Kat....Olbermann does say "What I do is really journalism."
Joe Jr. was one brave dude
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:00 ET by SickofLibsJoe Jr. was one brave dude to volunteer for that crazy mission. (So was JFK, for that matter.) Too bad it ended there.
Olbermann, on the other hand, was once driven past Quantico in his limo and, scared to death, threw up in his own lap.
Funny how the Kennedy
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:09 ET by Kat Outta the BagFunny how the Kennedy bravery thing ran out by the time it got to Ted...
RFK's taking on the Mafia
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:13 ET by JerRFK's taking on the Mafia wasn't exactly the job for a scaredy-cat.
Jer
He should have listened to
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:17 ET by bigtimerHe should have listened to some who tried to tell him his Dad had was in cahoots with the mob to get his son elected Prez...or did that slip your mind?
...and no, I'm not getting you tons of links, google it, books have been written also..sure if you google and look into it you will see some of those references also.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Gosh bt... Knock me over
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:34 ET by JerGosh bt...
Knock me over with a feather. That's the first time I've ever heard about Joe Kennedy and the mob, that is, except for the dozens of references to it I've encountered at NB and the hundreds of stories I've read and heard about it all of my life.
Jer
I was speaking in a military/wartime sense
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:34 ET by SickofLibsPlenty of other people with way less protection/cover than an AG went after the mob too, Dewey and Anslinger to name a few.
If there was a Kennedy after JFK, even a distant cousin, that distinguished themselves in the service, I never heard of them. They generally graduate college and then get themselves elected to public office as soon as possible.
(Good to see you back here, tho)
Different time and different generation
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:57 ET by doug1950Everyone was joining the service during WWII. Even LBJ, the big bullshit artist from TX was told by, I believe it was Forrestal, that if he expected to have a political career after the war he had better get his ass into some branch of service. He chose the Navy and spent the war going to parties in California. He never saw any combat although later he lied like a rug and claimed he did. Read "Means of Ascent" about LBJ. He was as full of crap as a Christmas goose.
Thanks SoL... I have
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:45 ET by JerThanks SoL...
I have always enjoyed your posts. Smart and funny. And as one of the "libs" [but not too lib], your comments generally make me wince. So I guess that means you're pretty d*mn effective as well.
Jer
The courage of olbermann
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:52 ET by NotFondOfLibsIs there any truth to the rumor that olbermann was on the floor of the back seat?
olbermann cologne
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:33 ET by NDanielsonit's called "Desperation". it oozes from his pores.
As an aside...I love that
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 16:45 ET by bigtimerAs an aside...I love that picture of Bath-Tub Boy...he looks like somebody just goosed him.
...wonder if his side-kick Matthews was somewhere near-by.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
look under
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:32 ET by American.Patriotbathtub boys desk for chrissy
Ha!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:34 ET by QueenMumOh, stop it bt. I'm getting a tingle up my leg just thinking about it. ;)
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."
—Margaret Thatcher
Not This One
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:08 ET by rammingspeedOlbermann is one of the most despicable people on the planet. But the flub between being shot down and and blown up while trying to arm a flying bomb isn't important.
flub not important?
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:02 ET by Patriot IINope its not important if the truth isn't important!!!!
Gee what a surprise...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 17:51 ET by SlyrrA liberal - telling blatent lies to:
1) cover up, hide, obfuscate and conceal the loathesome, perverted, corrupt doings of a member of their political party of choice.
2) pimp, exaggerate, hype and overblow the few semi-decent things somehow accomplished by a member of their political party of choice.
3) cover up, hide, obfuscate and conceal the good things done by a member of a political party they have decided are their enemies.
4)
pimp, exaggerate, hype and overblow the questionable deeds done by a member of a political party they have decided are their enemies.
Wotta surprise. I think I'm gonna have a heart attack and die from NOT being surprised....
It's no wonder that Olby and Matty and their programs are so deep in the toilet that if they could breathe through the tops of their heads they'd STILL be in trouble....
Olbie #1
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:12 ET by nadadhimmiIn on air psychotic behavior, that is.
Kennedy Genes
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:28 ET by slickwillie2001I guess both flying and driving at night over water is just not in the Kennedy genes.
In Obieland
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:28 ET by Dan DiegoHitting your thumb with a hammer means you nailed it.
You Nailed IT!
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:34 ET by bigtimerDD...
Talk about needing a spew alert...that is dead on hilarious!
If you only knew how much I am laughing now...I just had to read this to my other half I was laughing so hard.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
sailing into the wind
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:33 ET by SterlingSince this post was all about nitpicking I have a few points to make. First Joe Kennedy was a hero and a patriot. No matter what Noel Sheppard says.
My main problem is during Obama eulogy about Teddy Kennedy. At the end during one of his majestic rhetorical rushes he stated that Ted Kennedy was sailing into the wind. Well I’m quite the little sailor and I know that one who sails into the wind does not go very far. You want the wind at your back. Usually, Obama is so brilliant in his speeches but that line really upsets me…
Sterling... So just maybe
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:35 ET by bigtimerSterling...
So just maybe Olbie got something right for once.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
I have a question
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:37 ET by katainkentwhy do you refer to yourself as "quite the little" everything.
___________________________________________
"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller" Barack Obama (Dr. In Chief)
→ Sterling
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:38 ET by Cool ArrowI don't know much about navigation, but I'm pretty sure it is possible to sail into the wind.
Of course I defer to your superior knowledge of seamanship.
I just wasn't sure what tack you were taking.
You must be really smart to proclaim as impossible, what sailors have done for thousands of years.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
RO... Now, now, he didn't
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:45 ET by bigtimerRO...
Now, now, he didn't say 'impossible'.
He just said something about not getting anywhere...hence my reply above.
Did anybody even get what I meant? ;-)
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Well I’m quite the little
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:53 ET by fitzfongWell I’m quite the little sailor and I know that one who sails into the wind does not go very far.
Yes, but apparently one who drives off a bridge does.
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." -George Best
→ Little River Band
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:04 ET by Cool ArrowTime for a cool change.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
...or we could go Bridge
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:15 ET by bigtimer...or we could go Bridge Over Troubled Waters~S&G.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
I'm still waiting for Dame
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:34 ET by fitzfongI'm still waiting for Dame Elton John to defecate another of his Norma Jean/England's Rose verses:
...and it seems to me, you lived your life like a bag that's full of wind...
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." -George Best
LOL...Dame Elton John..
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:40 ET by bigtimerfitz...
How precious would that be...and I don't doubt it one bit...give him time, I love your lyrics.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Brother Bluto
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:45 ET by KC MulvilleNormally I'd agree but Brother Bluto ("Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?") exploits these gaffes by others all the time.
tired of liberal
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:19 ET by stunnedtired of liberal lies
That Teddy could have been a brother to Joe and Jack never ceased to amaze me. Neither would have left Mary Jo all night in that car. Jack swam out night after night in shark infested waters patrolled by the Japanese to try and get his crew and himself rescued. My friend's grandfather was on a pt boat, they were floating bombs. To hear him eulogized like he was made me sick. And yes Obie is still an idiot.
tired of liberal
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 19:20 ET by stunnedtired of liberal lies
That Teddy could have been a brother to Joe and Jack never ceased to amaze me. Neither would have left Mary Jo all night in that car. Jack swam out night after night in shark infested waters patrolled by the Japanese to try and get his crew and himself rescued. My friend's grandfather was on a pt boat, they were floating bombs. To hear him eulogized like he was made me sick. And yes Obie is still an idiot.
Perhaps Keith is wanting to take Dan Rather's place in history
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 20:47 ET by SkipperMLMUnbelieveable...could there have been more praise in that piece? Why is he buried in Arlington?
According to Wiki:
Kennedy enlisted in the United States Army in June 1951.[9] Following basic training at Fort Dix, he requested assignment to Fort Holabird for Army Intelligence training, but was dropped after a few weeks without explanation.[9] He went to Camp Gordon for training in the Military Police Corps.[9] In June 1952, he was assigned to the honor guard at SHAPE headquarters in Paris.[2][9] His father's political connections ensured he was not deployed to the ongoing Korean War.[2][10] While stationed in Europe he travelled extensively on weekends and climbed the Matterhorn.[11] He was discharged in March 1953 as a private first class.[9][11]
Next up from Olbermann ...
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 22:16 ET by Jack Coleman... the gunfire that brought down Joe Jr.'s plane came from grassy knoll
So.. ESPN hates Keith Olbermann confirmed.
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 22:16 ET by sic721"Olbermann was the only former ESPN star not invited back for the sports network’s 25th anniversary (he’s allowed to participate on Patrick’s radio show only because Patrick promised that Olbermann would never set foot on the network’s Bristol, Connecticut, campus)." LINK
A generation which ignores history has no past -- and no future.-Robert A. Heinlein
Libtard history is relative
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 22:25 ET by RR GOPLibtard history is relative anyway. What counts is the point you make and what sticks to the wall regardless of its historical merits.
BTW, why aren't the trolls defending Olby on this one or even admitting that he screwed up?
One of the 34% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 86% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
Lib "troll" reporting for duty,
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 23:16 ET by JerLib "troll" reporting for duty, Sir!
Actually, I have offered a modified Olby defense earlier in the thread, and conceded only to a "slight" screw-up.
Jer
If Olby wrote a history book . . .
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 23:05 ET by desertdwellerWe'd all be entertained for YEARS.
Okay dd... It's
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 23:20 ET by bigtimerOkay dd...
It's late...I'll bite...I don't get the meaning of your post.
Entertained how?
For years...
YIKES!
The pages would have to be blank.
Reminds me of the phrase 'Watching Paint Dry' ;-)
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Comedy instead of Non-fiction
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 23:47 ET by ConservativeClarkI think what he means that the book would be pure comedy instead of non-fiction, seeing that everything the man says and supposedly reports on is an outright lie. i cant help but laugh every time he claims hes the highest rated cable news program. Even if he did write a history book, the kos kids would have been the ghost writers and it would slant so hard to the left, it might physically pull the bookshelf over.
ConClark... I like...I
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:06 ET by bigtimerConClark...
I like...I like...
Thank you.
....all I could think of was 'they'll still eat the pages'.
At least we're all on the same page...that can't be consumed ;-)
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
Obie is just following
Sun, 08/30/2009 - 23:58 ET by toneyukiObie is just following orders. Michelle said we will change history.
What better way than one fact at a time.
He was number one in the target demo aka Far left libs
The reason he volunteered
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:08 ET by LoosMooseBut as usual... they leave out the reason that Joe Jr. volunteered... which was because Jack had been home on leave the same time as Joe, after receiving the Navy Cross for getting his PT boat rammed and sunk in Blackett Straight, followed by being rescued and the fake coconut message (sent after they made contact and arranged for rescue but made a great "war story") Joe Jr was pouting because his little brother had a medal and he didn't... so he looked for something that could get him a medal so he could be a Hee-ro too. The Aphrodite missions seemed a good deal, he never left England, only had to arm the bomb and bail out over Southern England... but the thing blew up on him. Can't blame Olberaman for this, he doesn't do research, and makes no effort for accuracy, just spews to get attention since his ratings are so bad, any thing he can do to attract attention to himself is OK with MSNBC.
Darn loos... I wasn't
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:13 ET by bigtimerDarn loos...
I wasn't going to bring that up, I've read as such in the past myself...but since you did...let's see what others say.
(btw loos...I could be wrong, been years ago now, seems to be his own father recommended this and was 100% behind it...as Joe Jr. was the one he had his sites on becoming Prez...not Jack)
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
You are correct, Big Joe
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 14:37 ET by LoosMooseYou are correct, Big Joe was pushing hard for his name sake... not to become President of the United States, but the FIRST IRISH CATHOLIC to become President of the United States. Reading the history on this, it becomes obvious which was the most important to him.
Joe Jr was genuinely "bummed out" and the event was recorded in diaries and letters how he left the dinner table sad and dejected that he has been upstaged by his little brother.
Joe Jr in fact wrote a letter to Jack telling him that he had volunteered for a mission that was "guaranteed to get me the DFC" *
While not a Navy Cross, he would have earned for doing a dangerous job (the results proved that) as opposed to Jack.. the only guy in the Squadron that had experience with large highpowered marine craft... and still managed to rack his boat into the dock (DOH!)
This has been taken to task as not his fault because it happened to others as well. Still if it were as dangerous as they made it out to be... they would have had ALL the boats cracked up by their own crews, which simply didn't happen.
* The letter exists, and has been verified.
→ East of Eden
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 14:43 ET by Cool ArrowIsn't there a production company out there who could make a partisan-style movie about these boys?
Streissand and hubby need not apply.
We will Barry you! - Russian prophecy
Where's Barbra?
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 15:44 ET by QueenMumI was just wondering where Ms. Streisand has been lately. She was everywhere during the Bush administration. I'd think she'd be telling us all about how those hurricanes in the Pacific are Bush's fault. Think I'll go see what's up on her website.
Edited to update: Ha! Seems Barbara is too busy promoting herself these days to be bothered much with politics. Other than her expected tribute to Sen. Kennedy, the rest of the "news" is all about her. Here's what you get when you go to her "Truth Alert" page.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."
—Margaret Thatcher
QM... Looks like she is
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 15:48 ET by bigtimerQM...
Looks like she is still waiting for Neil Diamond to bring her the real thing.
Obama's a Community Agitator, a walking, talking destroyer. ~ Rush Limbaugh
I like that you can
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 15:51 ET by Kat Outta the BagI like that you can pre-order her latest CD on her site so you don't have to waste time rummaging through those pesky discount bins later. How thoughtful of her!
Those damn Kennedys by LoosMoose
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 15:40 ET by JerI would suggest LoosMoose. He has convincingly established his anti-Kennedy bias.
Jer
LoosMoose...Question about PT-109
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 15:35 ET by JerJack had been home on leave the same time as Joe, after receiving the Navy Cross for getting his PT boat rammed and sunk in Blackett Straight, followed by being rescued and the fake coconut message (sent after they made contact and arranged for rescue but made a great "war story")
What's your source, LoosMoose? I just pulled "The Kennedys" An American Drama by Collier and Horowitz off the shelf-- the book pulls no punches and turns over every rock in presenting unvarnished revelations about the Kennedy family--and there is not even a hint that Jack Kennedy was unheroic in the aftermath of PT-109's ramming by a Jap destroyer. The coconut story is also alluded to with nothing about it being conjured up after the rescue arrangements had been made because it made a great "war story".
Can you link your account to the contrary please?
Jer
Only MSNBC
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 00:11 ET by VinncyGCan be so stupid to pay an idiot millions of dollars, have one of the lowest rated shows on cable and feel he's doing an excellent job. This is now the first inductee into a new serial I will be starting, and please others join in, of "Libs are Idiots". If you see a worthy candidate please present it for all of us to see. Thanks you.
Hey, the truth matters not
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 06:17 ET by msh1973Hey, the truth matters not to Keithie Boy, it just goes along with all the other lies he has told over the years.
He must have been thinking
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 06:28 ET by Jack BauerHe must have been thinking of President G.H.W. Bush who actually WAS shot down in action the Pacific.
Wherein Uncle Jer torques the Vet once again.
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 07:13 ET by JWFMr. Sheppard posted an article that states Oblermanns statement that Joseph P Kennedy Jr's plane was shot down is indeed not factual. As evidence, he posts a youtube video from the show Dogfights that states unequivocally "bound for a bombing mission in northern France". (3:56 mark)
There is nothing to nitpick there. All true and factual.
Jer 17:03: Noel is being way too picky in this case. About what? Uncle Jer is clearly fishing. BULL.
Jer 17:26: Because Olbermann slightly misstated the actual cause of Joe Jr.'s death and also understated his heroism by failing to more thoroughly report the nature and objective of his mission. Uncle Jer needs to leave military matters to military men. Slightly misstated? He was dead wrong. There is a difference between getting shot by the enemy, accidentally shooting yourself, and having your gun blow up in your face. Learn it. Or stay away from military matters as you have been instructed in the past. You may not know or care about the difference but we do. And please don't explain heroism to us Mr. Picky. It leaves a foul taste in our mouth.
Mr. Sheppard 18:04: do you think getting shot down by the enemy is the same as your plane exploding during a test mission taking place in friendly territory? Mr. Sheppard should not have taken the bait. This is only partially correct. The plane exploded during an actual bombing run. However, it was testing new equipment in the plane. Testing new ammunition/equipment/weapons on the enemy is a common practice during war. Testing even highly sensitive top secret equipment on the enemy in a plane loaded to the gills with explosives seems like an acceptable practice.
Jer 18:54: Nor do I think it's the same as Joe Jr. being blown to bits during the actual bombing mission. Forgive me, Noel...but did you sufficiently research the facts? --- Why the italics? Who is Jer quoting? Further, Mr. Sheppard's linked video correctly states bombing mission. The show Dogfights sufficiently researched the facts. BULL BULL BULL.
Jer 19:51: will you concede Noel misstated the facts when he claimed Joe Jr. was on a training mission? -------- Again with the italics. Who you quoting? IT'S NITPICKY TIME! PICKY PICKY PICKY PICKPOCKET PICKY PICKPACK TIME! Noel never said training. Uncle Jer is the first one to say training. Hey Uncle Jer, you can't tell the difference between actual combat missions, testing and training? Mr. Picky mistated the facts after accusing someone else of mistating the facts. Let's help Uncle Jer boys and girls
combat mission - engaging the enemy.
test mission - testing the equipments/weapons
training mission - training the operator of equipments/weapons
Got that Uncle Jer/Mr. Picky/Fact requester/Nitpick fisherman. Should Jer now apologize for attributing slightly misstated words to Mr. Sheppard? Or am I being picky?
Finally, let's pay proper homage here. From Joseph P Kennedy Jr's Navy Cross citation -
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
JWF: That may very well
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 08:17 ET by JerJWF:
That may very well be the most preposterous pile of slop you've ever posted at NewsBusters. Save the condescending lectures about military matters. I've had enough experience, and informed myself to a degree on the topic that I don't require any patronizing tutelage from you.
Olbermann was wrong about the actual cause of Kennedy's death, but I stand by my opinion that his error was relatively minor. In point of fact, the true cause of the explosion is not known and very likely will never be known. Granted, although I quoted Noel correctly in my response to him, I should have said "test" and not "training" in my reply to Cool Arrow. But it does not materially change the context as you so emphatically insist. Do you honestly believe the average reader--unaquainted with the full details and not having viewed the entirety of the video--would understand that "a test flight in friendly territory" is intended to refer to or appropriately describes the actual combat mission--as opposed to a preliminary testing/training exercise?
There had been earlier crashes during training and testing for Operation Aphrodite. To my knowledge, none of the aircraft had been loaded with live explosives. Kennedy's flight was the real deal, however.
I am always ready to apologize when out of line or mistaken about a critical fact. Such is not the case here. And, by the way, when using italics in the body of my remarks, it is for emphasis--not quotation.
Jer
Whatever Uncle Jer/Mr. Picky/Fact requester/Nitpick fisherman.
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 10:57 ET by JWFThere had been earlier crashes during training and testing for Operation Aphrodite. To my knowledge, none of the aircraft had been loaded with live explosives. Kennedy's flight was the real deal, however.
You need to retire. You forgot who you were talking to. Once again, you talk before you know -
Now you, Mr. Picky are insulting the other pilots that risked their lives. but did you sufficiently research the facts? No, you spoke before knowing all the facts. Operation Aphrodite was part of the Satfor project. There were planes loaded to the gills with high explosives before and after Joseph P Kennedy. Why are you dismissing those pilots so you can play up Kennedy now? Are you now understating their heroism by failing to more thoroughly report the nature and objective of their missions?
Aphrodite Missions
TargetDateAircraftNotes
Mimoyecques, Siracourt, Watten, Wizernes
August 4, 1944
Four B-17s
Mission 515: Escort is provided by 16 P-47 Thunderbolts and 16 P-51 Mustangs. None of the targets are hit; 1 drone B-17 crashes killing 1 crew.[6] Siracourt drone control problems led to B-17 39835 crashing in wood at Sudbourne ("pilot killed when abandoned aircraft too soon").[7] One plane lost control after the first crewman bailed out, and crashed near Orford, making a huge crater and destroying more than 2 acres (8,000 sq m) of the surrounding countryside; the second crewman was killed. The view from the nose of the other drone was obscured as it came over the target, and it missed by several hundred feet.
Watten
August 6, 1944
B-17s 30342, 30212 (Quarterback), & 31394
Crews abandoned the missiles without complications, a few minutes later one lost control and fell into the sea.[8] Both 30342 and 31394 experienced control problems and crashed into the sea, while B-17 30342 *Taint A Bird* impacted at Gravelines, probably due to flak damage.[9] The other also lost control, but turned inland and began to circle the important industrial town and port of Ipswich. After several minutes, it crashed harmlessly at sea.
Heligoland
August, 1944
After modifications to change to a different control system, the second casualty of the operation was suffered during this mission, when one pilot's parachute failed to open. The missile also failed, most likely shot down by flak before reaching the target.
Heide
August, 1944
4 drones
Three aircraft failed to reach their target due to control malfunctions, the fourth crashed near enough to cause significant damage and high casualties.
Mimoyecques[9]
August 12, 1944
PB4Y-1 32271 (ex USAAF B-24J 42-110007)
The single US Navy BQ-8 detonated prematurely over the Blyth Estuary, England, killing Lt. Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. and Lt. Wilford J. Willy[10]
Mission 549/Le Havre
August 13, 1944
B-17 with 2,000 lbs (907 kg) of bombs
P-38 and a Mosquito support aircraft assist; the target is missed and the Mosquito is destroyed by the exploding bombs.[6]
Heligoland U-boat pens[7]
September 3, 1944
B-17 63954
Second USN "Anvil" project controller flew aircraft into Duene Island by mistake.
Heligoland U-boat pens[9]
September 11, 1944
B-17 30180
Hit by enemy flak and crashed into sea
Hemmingstedt
September 14, 1944
B-17s 39827 & 30363 Ruth L III
Against the Hemmingstedt/Heide oil refinery target of the Oil Campaign (unsuccessfully attacked by conventional bombers on August 4), both drones missed the target due to poor weather conditions.[7]
Heligoland U-boat pens[7]
October 15, 1944
B-17 30039 Liberty Belle and B-17 37743
Both drones missed target due to poor weather conditions
Heligoland U-boat pens
October 30, 1944
Mission 693A: 2 of 5 B-17s make an Aphrodite attack on Heligoland Island, Germany; escort is provided by 7 of 7 P-47s.[6] Concluding that the BQ-7 was not successful against 'hard targets', United States Strategic Air Forces Headquarters ordered that it be sent against industrial targets instead, and 2 more missions were flown.
Herford marshalling yard[7]
December 5, 1944
B-17 39824 and B-17 30353 Ten Knights in the Bar Room
Target not located due to cloud cover, so both directed at alternate target of Haldorf. Both crashed outside town.
Oldenburg power station[9]
January 1, 1945
B-17 30178 Darlin' Dolly and B-17 30237 Stump Jumper
Both shot down by flak before reaching target.
Need to retire again Uncle Jer. You used to be better than this.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
You're slipping, JWF
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 16:18 ET by JerAnd it's disappointing. I guess you're so accustomed to busting those idiot rookie trolls, that you forgot you're facing major league pitching again.
So I'll throw softballs for you.
The suggestion that I'm demeaning other pilots in the program is sheer nonsense, and, further, that I'm doing so in order to enhance Kennedy's reputation by contrast is an absurd and frankly scurrilous accusation. I was already reasonably familiar with the operation, although I did not know the name Aphrodite. I did in fact briefly reacquaint myself with its details before I posted, and, again, to the best of my knowledge, the earlier crashes involved aircraft without explosives. I certainly could be wrong. If so, please point me to the relevant evidence. But, in any event, the presence of explosives in earlier tests--whether or not involved with crashes or pilot deaths--would not detract from Kennedy's heroic undertaking. Indeed, it would underscore the extraordinary hazards attached to it. Finally, what may or may not have taken place on subsequent missions wasn't germane to the issue at hand. However, my esteem for those pilots would be no less than that which I feel for Joe Kennedy.
Seriously, JWF, were planes being fully loaded with explosives in the test and training sessions? It's not entirely implausible, but would seem to create an unnecessary risk. If you have found evidence of it, please share the reference with me. Thanks.
Jer
Update: Okay, I've read the information at the Wiki link you provided. There were more Aphrodite missions flown prior to Kennedy"s than I was previously aware. They were USAAF B-17 flights, while Joe Jr. flew the first U.S Navy mission. Thank you for the link. The whole operation, certainly in hind sight, seems highly quixotic and extraordinarily dangerous, and all of those young pilots were very brave regardless of motivation.
Oh minor. means nothing. nothing at all. move along people.
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 11:07 ET by JWFbut I stand by my opinion that his error was relatively minor.
President George W Bush's plane went down when it caught fire.
oops. minor.
President George H W Bush's plane went down when it caught fire.
dang it. minor.
On one mission over the Pacific as a torpedo bomber pilot he was shot down by Japanese antiaircraft fire and was rescued from the water by a U. S. submarine.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
JWF...
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 13:15 ET by JerNope...major. Two different individuals. For example...
JFK died in a plane crash: major
JFK Jr. was assassinated in Dallas: major
President George H.W. Bush's plane went down when it caught fire
dang it. minor Nope...major. [Confusing context. Was he President when the incident occurred? How did it catch fire?]
President George H. W. Bush, while a Navy pilot in World War II, was rescued at sea after his plane was downed by hostile fire.
No problem.
...after his plane was downed by Japanese antiaircraft fire.
No problem
...after his plane was downed by Japanese aircraft fire.
Relatively minor (assuming it was part of a brief report by a commentator years later) Major problem if erroneously stated in his official military records
Jer
minor. I said move along people
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 11:11 ET by JWFSen. McCain's plane crashed on it's 23rd mission over Vietnam.
oops. minor difference.
On October 26, 1967, during his 23rd air mission, McCain´s plane was shot down during a bombing run over the North Vietnamese capital of Hanoi. He broke both arms and one leg during the ensuing crash.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
Will you people please move along. minor. nothing big here.
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 11:22 ET by JWFSen. Bob Dole suffered minor injuries in combat.
oops. He was all but left for dead.
In April 1945, while engaged in combat in the hills of northern Italy, he was hit by German machine gun fire in his upper right back. His right arm was also badly injured. As Lee Sandlin describes, when fellow soldiers saw the extent of his injuries all they thought they could do was to "give him the largest dose of morphine they dared and write an 'M' for 'morphine' on his forehead in his own blood, so that nobody else who found him would give him a second, fatal dose."[5] He had to wait nine hours on the battlefield before being taken to the 15th Evacuation Hospital. He began a recovery that would last until 1948 at Percy Jones Army hospital in Battle Creek, Michigan, where he met future fellow politicians Daniel Inouye and Philip Hart. His right arm was paralyzed; Dole often carried a pen in his right hand to signal that he could not shake hands with that arm.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:30 ET by jessieHOlbermann must have stopped taking his meds. He is starting to freak out again.
Oh Keith 'O...
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 10:25 ET by kengieYou got to come up with a bigger lie than that if you want to play with the big boys! "Rush claims Obama 'wants to mandate circumcision"..now thats a good lie or Sarah palin's "Seniors and the disabled "will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel'"..the list is endless. So get with the program Keith'ooooo!!
Kengie: don't get rid of your penis gourd just yet
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 13:41 ET by SickofLibsDid you not hear Obama's speech of two weeks ago that began "Foreskin and seven years ago...?"
The CDC IS recommending circumcision. The CDC reports to DHHS, and the DHHS Secretary is a cabinet member reporting directly to Obama.
And 'death panels' is an allegory that even the NYT has said has merit.
Wrong again!!!
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 14:27 ET by kengie" the CDC's eventual recommendations -- if they even include circumcision -- will be voluntary, not mandatory." Thats why there is a fact check! People get with it..check the facts!
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/27/rush-limbaugh/limbaugh-circumcision-obama-cdc/
politifact.com? Keep 'em coming, Kengie
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 14:39 ET by SickofLibsThe site where the top 75 lies are ALL Republicans. Olbermann is more balanced.
Go read the CDC study results. Like from the CDC.
kengie are you an 'intactivist'?
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 18:25 ET by katainkentthen yes, you might take issue.
Other than that the complete quote from Limbaugh regarding this never used the word mandatory. He said "pushing for" and said that SF groups like NOCIRC would really have an issue with it. You know what's sad? Even the people at the CDC believed the completely blown out of proportion quote and had to post a clarification to their recomendations specifying their non mandatory recommendation. It's amazing how crap like this snowballs because someone doesn't do 10 seconds of google work.
___________________________________________
"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller" Barack Obama (Dr. In Chief)
Kata, you're way over Kengie's "head" with your response, but...
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 18:54 ET by SickofLibs... I would highly recommend a short visit to http://www.nocirc.org/ for an overview of Penis Politics.
NOCIRC are staunch defenders against the circumcision of male, female and, wait for it, intersex infants. (The "intersex infants" are the ones we've all seen in the maternity ward with the gray name tags" "Hi, I'm a I Don't What Hell I am")
NOCIRC also has a really kewl logo, a bunch of multi-colored babies in diapers, presumably still sporting foreskins, erecting* an American flag ala Iwo Jima.
* not intended to elicit wiseass responses
erm no thanks I believe you
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 19:25 ET by katainkentHey I am happy to see that kengie has found the reply button. WTG kengie.
___________________________________________
"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller" Barack Obama (Dr. In Chief)
JWF
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 11:08 ET by VinncyGPlease don't get into a shouting match with a lib like Jer. As a typical lib they have to always CLARIFY the errors of another stupid lib and then make excuses for the error. They can't allow that stupid lib to be discovered as another uneducated misinformed liberal which is always so easy to spot. My advise JWF let the lib rant, let him live in his hopeless defenseless ideas. Then with luck he will disappear like so many other uninformed libs misguided libs.
Oh, before you make any comments JER, I'm really not interested in your resume or any further twisted logic.
Well VinncyG... I'm not
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 12:53 ET by JerWell VinncyG...
I'm not particularly interested in you, period. I see we have been at NB about the same length of time, but I've never really noticed anything you posted--but then I've trained my mind to automatically and subconsciously ignore meaningless fluff.
JWF and I get along just fine. I think we still respect each other. In this instance, however, I strenuously disagreed with his opinion. How about letting the two of us deal with it. We really don't need your advice.
Jer
I did happen to discover we share a couple of political heroes. How did that happen?
Once again, I am stuck with the job of summing up for Uncle Jer
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 18:18 ET by JWFMr. Sheppard posts an article that says Olberman makes a false statement. HE then posts a video that has the correct information. In the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively minor thing. It is a trivial error, but is an error of fact. Mr. Sheppard's article did not call for any penalties, no firings, no fines, no citations. He simply corrected the record. He did not even ask that Ollybean apologize or correct his statement.
As a long time member, Uncle Jer knows that not every single article here is deathly serious. There have been plently of light articles, open threads, opinion polls, and a weekly funny video.
Yes, this was a tiny error on the part of Oblehburg in the grand scheme of things. But no one was saying it was a big error. It was a simple correction of the record. Newspapers do it every day when they mess up.
What Uncle Jer fails to understand is that facts matter. As a history perfesser, he should know. There is entire wings of libraries dedicated to facts. It is called non-fiction & reference.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
And as JWF's professor, I am obligated to grade his work
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 18:54 ET by JerResearch and preparation: A
Content and presentation : A-
Analysis and conclusions: B+
Respect for professor: C- [Subject to re-evaluation if student washes and details professsor's car]
Professor Jer would remind Master JWF that facts are of paramount importance to the professor. Professor Jer has a fairly sound grasp of the historical record, but concedes Master JWF pointed out a couple of details about which the professor was previously unaware, and the professor is accordingly grateful to Master JWF. However, Master JWF should be likewise aware of the professor's call for a public correction by the dork Olbermann to set the record completely straight, irrespective of the grievousness of the error.
Interim grade: B+
Jer