Ann Coulter Debates Joy Behar, Round Two
Joy Behar subbed for Larry King again on Friday night, and much like back in February, the "View" co-host invited on conservative author Ann Coulter.
On the agenda in round two was Arlen Specter's defection, torture, abortion, Sarah Palin, possible SCOTUS replacements for Justice Souter, Joe Biden's gaffes, the swine flu, and Obama's first 100 days.
Video part one is embedded right with part two below the fold along with full transcript (h/t Tim Graham):
JOY BEHAR, GUEST HOST: Tonight, Ann Coulter, the conservative pit bull is licking her chops over the breaking news -- the Supreme Court vacancy.
Plus, she takes up for Sarah Palin and takes on swine flu and me, Joy Behar.
Then, Miss California's view on gay marriage -- it cost her her crown, but caused an uproar that won't die down.
And the death of Las Vegas icon Danny Gans -- Larry King is live from the strip with Donny and Marie and reaction to a favorite star's sudden passing, next on LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Joy Behar.
Larry will be joining us later in the show.
Our first guest is Ann Coulter.
Her latest book is "Guilty
Liberal Victims and Their Assault on America."
Let's get right to it.
Ann, how are you?
ANN COULTER: Fine, thanks.
How are you?
BEHAR: You know, it's May Day, Ann, and you're not wearing red.
What's up with that?
COULTER: Oh, sorry about that. It's not my color.
BEHAR: I know.
OK. Let's talk about the Supreme Court thing, with Judge Souter retiring. Don't you think it's time for an Hispanic or a Latin American or an African-American woman to be put in the place of Souter?
COULTER: Well, I'm not really into identity politics, as you might have guessed. But if we're going to figure out what we need more of on the Supreme Court...
COULTER: ...what we need is a Protestant.
BEHAR: A Protestant?
COULTER: We've got a lot of Catholics. We've got two Jews. We're now down, one of the Protestants.
BEHAR: Well, a lot of African-Americans are Protestants, so that could be a possibility right there.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
COULTER: Sorry, go ahead.
BEHAR: OK. When Obama said he wants someone who's in touch with ordinary people's lives, did you think that was too liberal?
What did you think of that statement?
COULTER: Oh, I'm glad you asked that.
What I thought was -- I mean it is exactly not what a justice is supposed to do. That is why the law is just. He said something to the effect, we don't want someone who hues to abstract principles, we want him looking at -- you know, with empathy at individual people's lives.
That is not what the law does. You don't want the law treating different people differently out of empathy...
BEHAR: Well, don't you want...
COULTER: The law is abstract. It should be applied abstractly. And I'll give you -- I mean I'll give you one small example of this. For example, that woman, I think her name was Karla Faye Tucker, who had committed a savage, brutal murder in Texas. She -- she got the death penalty. She converted and became a Christian.
BEHAR: Wasn't she the first...
COULTER: And there was a lot of uproar...
BEHAR: Wasn't she the first woman ever to be executed in the State of Texas?
COULTER: I'm not sure about that.
COULTER: She may have been.
COULTER: There was a big hubbub about it. And a lot of Christian groups did not want her executed. And maybe it's just my famed lack of compassion, but I didn't think an exception should be made for her because, I mean, the way you're supposed to look at these things, wouldn't shouldn't she be treated the same way if she were a black man who had committed a savage, savage, horrible murder?
And, yes, you know, God bless her. I'm glad she converted to Christianity. She'll get eternal life. That doesn't mean you avoid the death penalty...
BEHAR: I know. But when he's...
COULTER: And that is what the law is supposed to do. You treat like cases alike irrespective of how empathetic you may feel about a particular individual.
BEHAR: But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but...
COULTER: The same with free speech. I mean this sort of thing comes up all the time.
BEHAR: He's just saying ordinary people's lives.
Should only the extraordinary be protected by the Constitution?
COULTER: No, but that's a...
BEHAR: What about you and me?
COULTER: No, no, no, no. But I'm just saying...
BEHAR: We're ordinary.
COULTER: I'm just saying that in -- in the practice of the law, you do hue to abstract principles. The abstract principle of freedom of speech -- something that is constantly being violated on -- on college campuses and at schools.
BEHAR: Not on this show. Not on this show.
COULTER: Not on this show.
BEHAR: You can say whatever you want.
BEHAR: Now, do you think -- he's been there for 100 days, Obama.
Do you think it's too early to say maybe he should be on Mount Rushmore?
What do you think?
A hundred days and it doesn't seem like a day over 85.
BEHAR: What's you're -- what's your mark -- A, B, C, D, E, F, what?
I -- I -- as -- as we've discussed the last time I was on, I do not think what he is putting into effect is going to be good for the country. And...
BEHAR: Which part?
COULTER: Well, only two areas, domestic policy and foreign policy. I pretty much disagree with him on -- on -- in both of those areas. I think he's increased, as do a lot of people, increased the odds of -- of terrorist attacks on America or American interests. And I think what he's done to the...
BEHAR: Well, you have no proof of that. Neither does Dick Cheney.
COULTER: No, I don't. But I'm making a prediction. You're saying well, we're 100 days in. What did he...
BEHAR: I didn't know you had a crystal ball.
COULTER: Well, that's what your question was. I'm just being a good guest.
BEHAR: You're being a good guest. No, but, you know, really. I mean he's -- I don't see any better ideas coming from the other side, to tell you the truth, economic policy-wise. I don't see -- I don't hear anything.
BEHAR: Do you?
COULTER: Well... BEHAR: Just cut taxes, give the rich more money?
COULTER: It's better than...
BEHAR: What is coming from the other side?
COULTER: It's better than massively increasing the size of government and taking money away from people. I mean if we did absolutely nothing, we'd -- you know, the economy always goes up and down.
BEHAR: But, Ann, my...
COULTER: The bad companies would go out of business instead of bailing out the losers. You know, they -- you'd separate the wheat from the chaff.
BEHAR: But too many -- too many people suffer when -- would have suffered, I think, if he had just done that.
COULTER: Well, I think a...
BEHAR: If you just let everybody...
COULTER: ...lot more are going to suffer...
BEHAR: ...if you let people just die -- die away. It's not going work for most people.
COULTER: Nobody's going to die.
COULTER: Nobody is going to die. Some companies -- some badly run companies will die. And then what happens is you have, you know, the stock market roaring back, I mean as -- as happened in the '20s, by doing basically nothing. Just let the bad companies go out of business. Don't keep bailing out the losers. Bailing out the losers, the house flippers and -- and the car companies. Just get through all that. And then you'd have a roar back.
And what he's doing means there will be no roar back. Maybe the stock market will go up, you know, another 1,000, 2,000 points...
BEHAR: You know, but the thing about it is...
COULTER: But there will be no roaring.
BEHAR: The thing about it is the jury is out on everything you're saying right now. We don't really know what's going to happen. What we do know is that the Bush administration did torture a few people and Obama...
COULTER: They did not.
BEHAR: Obama declared very clearly at his press conference the other night that waterboarding is -- is torture.
Now, who are you with, Obama or Dick Cheney, on this?
COULTER: I am with all normal people who have -- who have ever had an older sibling, who have been through a fraternity hazing, who have been on a sports team or who have misbehaved as small children. Nothing we did is in the same universe as torture.
And as I wrote about in my column this week -- I mean my favorite torture was putting a caterpillar in one of the terrorist's cells. I don't think -- I don't even know if that was ever actually done...
BEHAR: What now -- well, what...
COULTER: But they had to evaluate whether they could put a harmless caterpillar in one of the terrorist's cell, you know, out from the caves of Afghanistan, who's afraid of caterpillars.
BEHAR: Well, you're minimizing it. You're minimizing it. I mean they were...
COULTER: No, that actually was one -- one of the -- of the interrogation techniques. And what I'm doing isn't minimizing it, I'm describing it. What you see in the headlines is torture, torture, torture. I actually read the memos. And it's comical and a little bit disturbing that even Dick Cheney was such a wuss.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
BEHAR: Oh, that's really going to make news, Dick Cheney is a wuss.
BEHAR: Ann Coulter. I love that.
BEHAR: But they water tortured -- they waterboarded somebody 183 times. After 100 times and he didn't talk, don't you think you say to yourself, hey, this is not working, let's try something else?
BEHAR: And then sleep deprivation is a very serious thing. I have a friend who committed suicide, actually, because he was sleep- deprived for like three or four weeks.
COULTER: You know, I'm sleep-deprived right now.
BEHAR: It's really a scary thing.
COULTER: And it's awful. I totally agree with that.
BEHAR: And Sean Hannity...
COULTER: (INAUDIBLE) no, no, no. But wait a second. What you were saying about waterboarding, I mean those -- this is why I am totally for a truth commission right now. Those -- I mean there are two things you said that are highly contested.
One is whether or not they talked after being waterboarded. According to, gosh, an awful lot of people, including the interrogators themselves, yes, they did talk and, yes, they did get good -- good information.
And as for the number of times they were waterboarded -- and, by the way, to say 183 over the course of a month, but it's for 20 second each time. So I wouldn't be worried about it even if it's true.
But according to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed himself, he was only waterboarded five times. Suddenly, you know, it's always whatever the worst version of it is gets accepted as fact and repeated over and over again.
BEHAR: Well, one of the things...
COULTER: I think 183 is in con -- is in contention. And definitely whether or not we got any information is in contention.
COULTER: So, yes, let's have hearings.
BEHAR: Well, two things on that. John McCain says that, you know, waterboarding doesn't work. And he was waterboarded himself and he knows it doesn't work, right?
COULTER: And you know what a fan I am of John McCain's.
BEHAR: Well, you know, you would like to get rid of him, you would like to get rid of Meghan McCain. I mean Arlen Specter is leaving.
Who -- where is the talent...
COULTER: What is shocking about...
BEHAR: ...going to come from in the Republican Party?
COULTER: Well, not John McCain. As you know, I was a Hillary gal when -- when McCain became the Republican nominee. And -- and I mean this is a perfect example of why. To describe what was done to John McCain -- being hung by their arms, being starved...
COULTER: ...being beaten repeatedly, to the extent, as we saw during the campaign -- and I do, of course, admire John McCain's war service and what he went through -- that he can't even lift his arms or use a keyboard. To compare that to putting a caterpillar in a terrorist's cell, I think, is the equivalent of, you know, some woman who has actually been -- been raped at knife point...
BEHAR: But why are you forgetting the other...
COULTER: ...that being compared to...
BEHAR: Why are you forgetting...
COULTER: ...a boss carrying -- calling his secretary honey and having people say, oh, it's constructive rape. It's constructive rape. I would think the woman who was actually raped would be indignant at that comparison.
COULTER: But in John McCain's case, he cares more about impressing "The New York Times" than common sense and rationality.
BEHAR: OK. All right. I want to know if you want to be waterboarded, because Sean Hannity has volunteered to be waterboarded, but I don't see him sticking his head under the faucet yet.
COULTER: Well, for one thing, about half of the male hosts on Fox News have been waterboarded on TV. I've seen worse on "Fear Factor." And, no, I don't want to be waterboarded.
Do you want to be...
BEHAR: Are you sure?
COULTER: Do you want to be aborted, because I think you support abortion?
In fact, could we abort the terrorists instead of waterboarding them?
BEHAR: Oh, that was quite a jump. But you know what, Ann's taking your calls tonight.
COULTER: No, it's not.
BEHAR: Start styling.
COULTER: I'm not a terrorist.
BEHAR: See you after the break.
We'll be right back.
BEHAR: We're back with Ann Coulter.
OK, Ann, other big news this week -- Republicans lost one of their own. Arlen Specter defected.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (D), PENNSYLVANIA: As the Republican Party has moved farther and farther to the right, I have found myself increasingly at odds with the Republican philosophy and more in line with the philosophy of the Democratic Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So, Ann, they call him Snarling Arlen.
What do you think of him?
COULTER: Well, I was really depressed about the news, but that was when I thought it was Phil Spector becoming a Democrat.
When it was Arlen Specter, you know, not really breaking news. Next, you're going to tell me Liberace was gay. I mean the -- he did -- I will give him credit for one thing. He was totally honest in that press conference. You said they had run the polls and he was going to lose the Republican primary. He does votes -- and he's always voted with the Democrats. I mean he only became a Republican to run for D.A. I think, back in 1965.
I don't think it will change very much.
The only thing that will happen is what always happens when a Republican becomes a Democrat or an Independent or Republicans lose an election -- that is, the mainstream media starts haranguing us to throw out the Christians and the pro-lifers. This has happened for 40 years now.
BEHAR: Well, what about the fact that he's saying that the Republican Party has no room for moderates anymore?
I know that you don't care about that...
BEHAR: ...but just try to be objective for a second.
Isn't it true?
COULTER: No, we're... BEHAR: It's just the right-wing of the party is controlling the party now.
COULTER: We're a big tent.
BEHAR: And do you care?
COULTER: But as a general matter, both parties -- both the Democrats and the Republicans -- I mean there used to be conservative Democrats, too. You don't see too many of those. Conservatives have -- are now mostly in the Republican Party and liberals are now mostly in the Democrat Party.
BEHAR: Why do you people -- why do you Republicans say Democrat Party all the time?
What is that?
It's the Democratic Party, isn't it?
Do you know what I mean?
I hear this a lot...
COULTER: I must say, I have...
BEHAR: ...the Democrat Party.
What is it?
BEHAR: It's like there -- there's some kind of an underhanded nastiness to it and I can't figure it out -- the Democrat Party.
COULTER: If it is...
BEHAR: What is that?
COULTER: ...I've been doing it subliminally, because I never noticed it until you just mentioned it.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, it's there. But so now if Al Franken gets in, which he's probably going to get in -- and Norman Coleman is going to have a nervous breakdown pretty soon, whether he wins or loses. He'll be ready for the booby hatch, the guy.
So if he wins and Arlen Specter comes in, now you have 60.
Isn't that a problem for the Republican Party?
They can't even...
COULTER: I think it's a problem...
BEHAR: They can't even blab their way out of a -- of a piece of legislation.
COULTER: I think it's a problem for the country to have all branches of government in one party's hands.
BEHAR: I agree with that.
COULTER: I think it will be bad.
BEHAR: I agree with that. I felt it with the Bush administration, that it was too Republican. And now it might be too Democratic.
COULTER: I think it would be better for...
BEHAR: So I agree with you there.
COULTER: I think it would be better for Obama if he had more Republicans in the Congress, because he will be pushed into doing more left-wing things than maybe even he wants to do, but he has his constituents. He will have to pass -- sign lots of liberal legislation.
And that's what ended up saving Bill Clinton, oddly enough. He tries to, you know, socialize health care, gays in the military, he loses in the biggest landslide for Republicans in a half century when the Republicans came in in 1994. That really saved his presidency, because then...
BEHAR: Well, maybe...
COULTER: ...the next six years, he just signed whatever Newt Gingrich sent up.
BEHAR: But maybe the 21st century is going to be really different and people really do want more of a liberal agenda. It's possible.
Got a message for Ann Coulter?
Send it to her, not me, on our blog at CNN.com/larryking.
Back in 60 seconds.
BEHAR: Sarah Palin met with the guys from the show "American Chopper."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SARAH PALIN (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Holy moly.
How are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good.
How are you?
PALIN: Nice to see you.
Are you staying warm?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I've got the old Eskimo suit on now.
PALIN: Yes, you do. Very good. We heard that the OCC guys were to be up here building a bike. And it would assist us in celebrating statehood.
You've got that patriotism in you that people just so respect.
Come up in the summertime and let's go fishing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And ride.
PALIN: That's another good thing. And ride. OK. We'll ride the bike to the fishing hole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: First of all, what is she sitting on?
Is that a bear that she shot or what?
COULTER: I hope so.
BEHAR: Is she going after the biker vote here or what?
What do you think?
BEHAR: I mean, you know, you said, in "Time Magazine's" "100 Most Influential People," which is out this week, which, by the way, "The View" women are in that -- listed in that group, can you believe it?
BEHAR: Thank you.
You're not in it. I hate to break this to you.
BEHAR: But I was wondering what happened, you know? But anyway, we're in it this year.
COULTER: I can't be in it every year, Joy.
BEHAR: No, that's true.
Anyway, Sarah Palin, you said, was, arguably, the most influential person in 2008. But no one ever notices because she wasn't able to overcome the deficits of her running mate -- ouch -- John McCain.
With friends like you, who needs enemies?
I mean this is your party.
COULTER: I never claimed to be a friend of John McCain's. A friend of Sarah Palin's. But, yes, I think -- I think she prevented what could have been an absolute rout.
BEHAR: Is she the best the Republicans have to offer, really?
COULTER: No. I think -- well, I'm not saying no. But we have a lot of great Republicans. We'll see what happens. But -- but I mean I wrote the, also, the human advanced conservative of the year piece on Sarah Palin at the end of last year. And I think she could make -- be a great presidential candidate. If I were advising her as opposed to advising the Republicans -- the Republicans may jump too soon. I'd tell Sarah Palin to stay up in Alaska for a few more presidential elections, be a good governor and run again in eight or 12 years. I wouldn't come right back if I were she.
BEHAR: Yes. All right, Ann.
I have to take another break.
We'll be right back.
BEHAR: OK. We're here still with Ann Coulter.
Ann, let me ask you a question. A few -- I guess a couple of weeks ago, Levi Johnston was on with Larry King. And his mother and sister were here, too. And he's very upset and disappointed that he can't see the baby.
Are you upset?
What do you think about that whole thing?
You know, they -- should they get married?
Are you upset that they're not getting married?
COULTER: I'm upset...
BEHAR: And that Sarah -- Sarah doesn't want him to see the baby.
COULTER: I'm upset that the media is allowing Levi Johnston to go on and turn this into a national soap opera, especially when the whole world was trying to focus on Heidi and Spencer. I really do not think we need another soap opera going on.
But, you know, I mean I wrote about it in -- in my last book, in the chapter on single motherhood. I'm in favor of women who get pregnant out of wedlock giving the children up for adoption or having shotgun marriages.
BEHAR: You are. So in this...
COULTER: So those would be my two options.
BEHAR: OK. But neither one of those options was -- was utilized in the Bristol/Levi thing at all. She had the baby. She's a single parent. They didn't give the baby up for adoption. She didn't have an abortion. They didn't get married. Nothing...
COULTER: I'm glad she didn't have an abortion.
BEHAR: Nothing was accomplished.
COULTER: It's certainly better than having an abortion to -- to raise a child without a father. But I think Levi Johnston ought to shut up and go home.
Wouldn't it be better if they just got married and went into the sunset...
COULTER: I think...
BEHAR: ...together with the little baby?
COULTER: I think it would be better. I mean she -- she -- Sarah Palin isn't the vice president. And, by the way, after Joe Biden's little performance this week, everybody told me Sarah Palin wasn't up to the job. Oh, yes, Biden is doing a bang-up job.
BEHAR: What bothered you...
COULTER: She isn't the vice president.
BEHAR: What bothered you about Biden?
COULTER: That we have -- we have one flu death in this nation from an unusual flu, as compared to 35,000 from the normal flu we have every year. And he's telling people not to go on trains or ride on airplanes.
BEHAR: You know, Ann, the -- comedians are having trouble, because we can't find jokes about Obama because he's so perfect.
BEHAR: But we have Joe Biden. Don't take that away from us, I beg of you.
BEHAR: Every time he gaffes, the comedians all have material. I mean it's been a while -- since Bush is gone, it's been difficult to come up with some jokes.
COULTER: I think maybe if you put your noggins to it, you could come up with something on Obama.
BEHAR: All right. Let's take a phone call.
We have a call. Doug from Granite Falls, North Carolina.
Go ahead, Doug.
DOUG: I do have a ques -- how are you doing, Joy?
BEHAR: I'm good.
DOUG: I do have a question for Ann.
Hey, how are you all?
BEHAR: Go ahead.
DOUG: Thanks for taking my call.
BEHAR: It is so pleasant down there, you know?
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead, Doug.
DOUG: Oh, it is.
DOUG: Yes, Ann, I do have a question for you.
Basically, you know, it's obvious you don't really like Obama and, you know, the decisions that he's made or is going to make. Give me one example of a decision that he has made or is going to make and give me your solution to that issue.
COULTER: His decision to release the Department of Justice memos instructing with, you know, 200 years of -- of war history, legal history on what constitutes torture. Apparently putting a caterpillar in a terrorist's cell does not constitute torture. Going through all of that and then sending it to the CIA interrogators and the decision of -- of Obama to release those, as many people have said, is going to increase the odds of another terrorist attack.
I mean this was -- this is an advantage to the terrorists, to be giving them this sort of information. Besides the fact that we're being laughed at in capitals around the world when they find out that this is what Americans do to the mastermind of the 9/11 attack.
So, yes, my decision would have been don't release the memos.
BEHAR: You know, before we go -- I'm running out of time now. But you said -- I saw a quote of yours. I have got a bone to pick with you. You said: "I loved going on 'The View'" -- tell me if this is true: "because being around all those gals always makes me feel so young and pretty."
Care to elaborate, Ann?
COULTER: Oh, come on, that was funny, Miss. Comedienne.
BEHAR: It is funny.
COULTER: I bet I can come up with a joke on Obama.
BEHAR: It is funny.
BEHAR: All right.
COULTER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Let's see, are we ready for a break or can I ask one more question?
OK. I have another question.
What about these closing of the borders now?
You know, what do you think about that?
COULTER: Well, I'm for it.
BEHAR: Because of the flu.
COULTER: I'm not worried about the -- the swine flu. I think there's been a lot of hysteria over that. Of course, the swine flu could transmute into a more dangerous virus, the same way a warm summer's breeze could turn into a category four hurricane. But we're not there yet.
BEHAR: Yes, but why close the borders...
COULTER: And so the panic is crazy and -- but I'm in...
BEHAR: But why close the borders when the flu is here already?
It seems like the horse is out of the barn.
COULTER: Well, what I was -- the point I was driving to, even though I think it's silly in response to this, I'm in favor of closing the borders anyway.
BEHAR: Yes. All right.
COULTER: We're not a department store, we're a country.
BEHAR: All right, Ann.
The gay marriage debate has got new life since Miss California spoke out against it. Get ready for more fireworks with Shanna Moakler, Stephen Baldwin and others next.
Thank you, Ann.
COULTER: Thank you.