Doesn't it amaze you when some liberal media member actually claims that raising taxes is good for the economy, and uses the Clinton Era to prove his or her specious point?
Such transpired Tuesday afternoon when CNBC's Trish Regan invited liberal columnist David Sirota on to discuss president-elect Barack Obama's plans to get the economy rolling again.
True to the liberal motif, Sirota spoke fiscal and economic non sequiturs that only the deluded and/or uneducated could possibly agree with (video embedded right):
Ummm, no David, that's not what occurred over fifteen years ago, for you, like most of your liberal brethren, conveniently forget that the '90s recession actually ended in the first quarter of 1991.DAVID SIROTA, LIBERAL COLUMNIST: Well, we have a history of knowing that when you raise taxes on the very wealthy, and you use it for spending and economic stimulus, that can build the economy. That's what happened in 1993 when President Clinton came into office. So, Grover's arguments...
TRISH REGAN, CNBC ANCHOR: Okay, so wait, I want to stop you there. You're saying Clinton raising taxes actually resulted in stronger GDP growth?
SIROTA: What I'm saying is the entire economic package that he presented did, and that the entire economic package was in part funded with a tax on the wealthy in order to spur the kind of spending and stimulus that needed to happen. The point here is that we need an economic stimulus. We should be okay with some modicum of deficit, but we should also be looking to make sure the deficit doesn't get out of control to create high interest rate pressure. And I think that we have a history in this country of knowing that if you raise taxes in an appropriate way on the very wealthy that that can create an economic boom. That is what happened over fifteen years ago.
As tables available at the Bureau of Economic Analysis show, the Gross Domestic Product grew 2.6 percent in the second quarter of 1991, 1.9 percent in Q3, 1.9 percent in Q4, 4.2 percent in Q1-1992, 3.9 percent in Q2-1992, 4.0 percent in Q3-1992, and 4.5 percent in Q4-1992. As such, the economy had been growing for a full seven quarters before Clinton was inaugurated.
Sadly, liberals choose to ignore this inconvenient truth, and instead falsely claim almost ad nauseum that Clinton's tax hikes caused the '90s economic expansion.
In fact, the 3.3 percent growth in 1992 exceeded the 2.7 percent growth the economy experienced in 1993 the first year after Clinton increased taxes. Two of the four years in Clinton's first term produced lower growth rates than the year before he raised taxes. And, the average yearly growth rate in Clinton's first term was 3.2 percent, less than the year before he took office.
What most liberals also choose to ignore is that the real explosion in the economy began in 1997 when Clinton finally agreed to tax cuts the Republican Congress had been pushing for since they took over in 1995. The GDP grew 4.5 percent in 1997, 4.2 percent in 1998, 4.5 percent in 1999, and 3.7 percent in 2000. This is an average yearly growth rate of 4.2 percent, a full percentage point (or 31 percent!) better than during his first term when taxes were higher.
Moreover, the real explosion in revenues also occurred after taxes were cut in 1997. After Clinton's tax hike, revenues grew by $362 billion from 1992 to 1996, or 33 percent. By contrast, once the GOP finally got Clinton to cut taxes, revenues grew by $572 billion, or 39 percent from 1996 to 2000.
Sadly, such facts didn't prevent Sirota from continuing with his inanities:
The issue here is you have to ask "what is the prudent course of action?" Are we risking too much by creating a bigger deficit by not raising some revenues or should we not raise taxes at all? What I'm saying here is very clear. In the recent history of this country, we have had a very clear example where a past administration saw a recession, saw that prudently raising taxes on the wealthy in order to fund an economic stimulus was something that brought the economy back. We have that history.
Ummm, no, we really don't. After all, besides how wrong Sirota was concerning GDP growth and tax revenues, this economic stimulus in Clinton's first term was a figment of his imagination.
Spending under George H.W. Bush rose by 23 percent from FY 1989 thru FY 1993. Spending only grew by 13.5 percent during Clinton's first term. As such, where was the added stimulus, David?
Add it all up, and Sirota really has absolutely no clue about what happened economically or fiscally during the Clinton years.
Maybe more importantly given our current economic condition, Sirota also seems clueless about the history of over-concern for deficits when the economy is in a recession. Maybe he should learn from Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman who surprisingly got something right on ABC's "This Week" a few Sundays ago:
PAUL KRUGMAN, NEW YORK TIMES: What actually happened was, you know, there was an enor, there was a collapse in the financial system, which was not restored for a long time. There was a persistent deep slump in consumer demand, and therefore no investment demand and so you're stuck in this trap. Roosevelt got the economy moving somewhat. By 1937 things were a lot better than they were in 1933...
GEORGE WILL: And then they tanked (?)...
KRUGMAN: ...then he was persuaded to balance the budget, or try to, and he raised taxes and cut spending, and the economy went back down again, and it took an enormous public works program known as World War II to bring the economy out of the Depression.
Quite right, although Sirota appears to disagree with this. On the other hand, that shouldn't be a surprise, for Sirota's historical knowledge of events transpiring since he was born is just as lacking.
After all, also missing in Sirota's view of the Clinton Era was the fact that the Governor from Arkansas didn't campaign on tax hikes. Quite the contrary, he promised middle class tax cuts.
Weeks after he was elected, the 3rd quarter GDP numbers came in stronger than expected, and the FY 1992 budget deficit came in higher than projected. This is what led President Clinton to raise taxes in 1993, as an economy that he had claimed for months was still in recession actually no longer needed stimulus in his view, and fighting the deficit became priority one.
Such explains the tax hikes as well as the slowing in spending growth.
Though this is indeed easily verifiable recorded history, Sirota like so many of his liberal media colleagues doesn't have a clue.
Yet, his misguided opinions feed the minds of liberals who read The Nation and the Huffington Post, as well as viewers of MSNBC's "Countdown" and Comedy Central's "The Colbert Report."
And you wonder why liberals are so clueless when it comes to economic and fiscal issues?
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.




















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Comments Policy
So Smart
November 25, 2008 - 16:27 ET by allanfThe operative word from liberals about Obama is that he is "so smart". Intelligence and effective leadership do not necessarily correlate.
For someone "so smart" President Obama does not seemed well schooled in market economics.
Krugman is hilarious
November 25, 2008 - 16:35 ET by PopularTechBy 1937 unemployment was 17% - hardly "better".
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Ok, Trish knows nothing (no
November 25, 2008 - 16:46 ET by EdhenryOk, Trish knows nothing (no surprise on CNBC)
Sirota is attempting to balance an economic stimulus to prevent disaster in consumer spending, and raising taxes slightly to prevent the deficit from going out of control in a recession. Two things missing. 1. Much more efficient to lower taxes (all $$ through gubment is less efficient) and 2. DECREASE FED BUDGET so that deficit does not get out of control!!.
No one seems to think that state, local or fed gov has any responsibility to do with less, only us serfs.
Media bias is clear. Ignorance is even more frustrating and dangerous.
PT is correct about the
November 25, 2008 - 17:20 ET by Gat New YorkPT is correct about the unemployment going down only to 17% in 1937 which was not much of an improvement. In fact by this time the government felt that this was becoming a permanent condition. The socialist policies of the New Deal only made the economic situation more entrenched and the government believing that this a permanent situation. Uncle Frank (Krugman) is another reason why the Nobel prize has become a complete joke.
Ed - I am extremely concerned that we will be paying for these bailouts and stimulus programs for many, many years to come. Wait till Obama has no choice but to raise taxes across the board. To paraphrase Obama's spiritual mentor: "The chickens will come home to roost."
Krugman is also a lot of fun
November 26, 2008 - 00:44 ET by NL207Krugman is also a lot of fun in a debate. Get him head-to-head in any public forum. He's an intellectual candy-ass.
Well gee we can look forward to Sirota advising 0bama
November 25, 2008 - 16:36 ET by upcountrywaterHe who talks the longest wins.
DEMOCRAT
Aclu</
Why did they even bother to
November 25, 2008 - 16:52 ET by Ryan Mc.Why did they even bother to have Grover Norquist on? They didn't even let the man speak. They had the moderator who started by ridiculing his first statement and then let 2 liberal guests make fun his position for several minutes. Grover finally gets back in and is horrobly, rudely, interupted by that arse clown. It gets back to Grover at the end by which time the conservative talking to 3 liberals (including the "moderator") had about 10%-15% of the talking time and he is interupted throughout the final sentence he tried unsucessfully to get out. I'm just so sick of the media I could scream. Any fair moderator would have only scheduled one liberal, would have stopped that jerk who tried to filibuster Grover every time he opened his mouth, and would have conducted an actual dialogue. To much to ask for NBC.
Why did they even bother to
November 25, 2008 - 17:44 ET by MichiganVet<satire>
You've now witnessed NBC's version of "fair and balanced" .... dont you feel better now?
I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy
What most liberals also
November 25, 2008 - 16:54 ET by bigtimerWhat most liberals also choose to ignore is that the real explosion in the economy began in 1997 when Clinton finally agreed to tax cuts the Republican Congress had been pushing for since they took over in 1995. The GDP grew 4.5 percent in 1997, 4.2 percent in 1998, 4.5 percent in 1999, and 3.7 percent in 2000. This is an average yearly growth rate of 4.2 percent, a full percentage point (or 31 percent!) better than during his first term when taxes were higher.
Exactly...but hey facts don't matter to the left, they intentionally ignore the real facts....they have an agenda doncha know, come hell or high water we are suppose to be happy/content and accept their destructive plans, if they repeat it often enough, it will be so...they depend on the sheeple with the rest of the msm leading the way...24/7.
It is past aggravating....my hair gets on fire just listening to the dribble.
Btw...the only prize Krugman should of won is in the bottom of a Cracker Jack box.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
bt!
November 25, 2008 - 17:23 ET by katainkent"rediculous political argument!" :)
member of the Conservative Independant Witness Protection Program since Nov. 5, 2008
BT - It is astounding just
November 25, 2008 - 17:25 ET by Gat New YorkBT - It is astounding just how ignorant the media thinks we are, or is trying to make us.
Krugman (aka Uncle Frank in "One Crazy Summer") is another example why the Nobel Prize has become a joke.
People like Krugman are reinventing history to suit their political agenda. The New Deal was and always will be a failure. It created a large permanent class of unemployed by not allowing the private sector to recover.
Remember "the worst economy
November 26, 2008 - 10:12 ET by pbanks7Remember "the worst economy in 50 years?" The media still believe that, even though it was disproven by the above numbers.
This year the big lie was "a tax cut for 95% of us." How can that be possible if 40-45% don't even pay taxes? McLame was too incompetent to bring that point up.
I just keep praying that Obama the pragmatist wins out over Obama the idealogue.
MSM - shaping all the perceptions you need to believe, then confirming it with a poll.
And they conveniently
November 25, 2008 - 17:24 ET by motherbeltAnd they conveniently forget that Clinton said, shortly after his inauguration that he had (paraphrasing) worked harder on it than on anything else in his life, and just couldn't do that tax cut. (Similar coming from Obama on that "tax cut for 95% of Americans"?)
Obama has admitted that he might not be able to raise taxes on the wealthy right away, so even he knows that that stifles growth.
They insist that the way to increase revenue is to raise taxes, so don't confuse them with facts.
I would not give Obama that
November 25, 2008 - 17:30 ET by Gat New YorkI would not give Obama that much credit. I think he knows that he is in way over his head.
Someone finally explained to him what "Bush's failed economic policies" actually are. And his response was ,"oh."
So his only option is to surround himself with credible Clinton/Bush economic people so they make the right decision.
My biggest concern is that he actually believes that The New Deal worked and try it again.
Laying the Ground work...
November 25, 2008 - 17:22 ET by BiasedGirlLooks like The One's PR Wing, the MSM has started laying the ground work for him to do what we knew he was planning all along...Tax Increases. Like Obama's daddy said, there is no limit to Taxation.
http://www.withbias.net
90's Boom
November 25, 2008 - 17:33 ET by LionKingCorrect me if I am wrong, but didn't much of the 90's boom revolve around deceptive accounting practices of corporations like Enron and MCI?
and Adelphia. It also
November 25, 2008 - 17:50 ET by Gat New Yorkand Adelphia.
It also involved unethical investment banking practices that significantly over-valued dot.com and tech stocks and resulted the collapse of NASDAQ.
We need more Peter Schiff.
November 25, 2008 - 18:25 ET by babooLib economic stupidity has been on flagrant display on CNBC for a while now. Everyone needs to see Paul Schiff's stellar performances on that network. This is a good starting video where a CNBC anchor claims, "Oh, well *Gold* has no intrinsic value of its own - it's all in our heads. Money that the Government prints, however, has intrinsic value!" Peter lets her have it:
http://www.youtube.c...
Here's another from CNN:
http://www.youtube.c...
baboo
HEY BARACK, CUT THIS
November 25, 2008 - 19:04 ET by reelman46HEY BARACK, CUT THIS
Since the media is reporting that Xerxes is “going to look at the budget line by line for cuts”…
permit me to suggest a few areas of taxpayer relief:
1.. Dept of Education, in 2 years down to 2 bean counters and their secretaries per 10 states
2.. All corporate “welfare”, cut the odious corporate tax to zero in return
3.. National Endowment Arts, if its so wonderful people will pay for it
4.. National Public Radio, if its so wonderful people will pay for it
5.. Half of foreign aid, includes half of U. N. support
6.. All social benefits for illegals, this means ALL
7.. Highway funds cut to zero for a year for any state that does not report illegals
8.. Freeze all congressional salaries for 4 years
9.. Fannie and Freddie Mac, defund to zero
10. End all farm subsidies
11. End the ethanol mandates
12. End the Civil Rights Commission, laws are now on the books plus activist groups
13. End all rules requiring languages other than english be taught or used with federal money
14. Require all federal agencies to submit 10 cost-saving ideas
15. Require all federal agencies to freeze their budget for the next 2 years
End baseline budgeting and form another “Grace Commission” to reform efficiency.
Make the current tax cuts permanent.
I DARE U.
Doug Schexnayder, Ph.D. (theconservativecrawfish)
i agree...except the farm subsidies
November 25, 2008 - 19:09 ET by porpoiseboyand even those would be fine to end as long as you put some protection in for the american farmer against imports. whether tariffs, import quotas, something. good list.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
Subsidizing the Farm Industry helped cause the Depression
November 25, 2008 - 19:42 ET by PopularTechAmerica's Great Depression (PDF) (368 pgs) (Murray N. Rothbard, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Economics, 2000)
All subsidies should be removed and no protections should be put in. If the American farmer cannot compete then they should let someone who can take over the business.
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so pt
November 25, 2008 - 19:51 ET by porpoiseboyso pretty much all our food should be grown outside the united states? because there are very few places the american farmer can compete without some help. i did not say i support subsidies per se, i said that tariffs & other protections do need to be in place. do you want to live in a world without the american farmer. where in the constitution does it prohibit protecting americans over foreign competiion. especially since other countries subsidize theirs. how are our farmers to compete with those who are subsidized by their govts? get informed pal
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
Hhmm, well
November 25, 2008 - 20:00 ET by general companyStarvation would drive the price up? But I agree, all American producers are working on an unlevel field, whether it be our own Gov or the ones we import to.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
Absolutely Ridiculous
November 25, 2008 - 20:19 ET by PopularTechFirst of all there is no way our food supply would dry up since food shortages are an ongoing problem around the world. What would happen is all the inefficient farmers would go out of business like they should and be replaced with efficient farmers.
People that support tarriffs do not understand economics.
The only reason someone needs protection is because they cannot compete due to their incompetence.
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This would be nice PT
November 25, 2008 - 20:32 ET by general companyWhat would happen is all the inefficient farmers would go out of
business like they should and be replaced with efficient farmers.
But it doesnt always happen, small farmer cannot make enough product to stay in business, their farm are not being replaced with efficient farmers.Their land are being bought and turned into subdivisions and shopping centers. But these are the small guys, you know the ones who bring the variety to our dinner table.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
Because of government intervention
November 25, 2008 - 22:01 ET by PopularTechGovernment needs to get out of the farm business, lower taxes and then the free market can work. Even still that is not going to stop everything. There will always be somebody who wants to buy the land to develop and it should be up to the farmer to do what is best for himself. With the current market you are going to see a contraction in retail and housing expansion.
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pt, spoken like a true heartless
November 26, 2008 - 01:02 ET by porpoiseboycapitalist...the kind who has the "market" as his god. so basically you are saying that all small family farms should disappear and let the more "efficient" giants like cargill and monsanto control our food supply and the food we eat? obviously you are a consumer, not a producer. and one with the heart of a grinch, and the nostalgia of .....well, no nostalgia at all. you see "economics" does not trump all.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
This isn't Socialism, this is reality
November 26, 2008 - 01:08 ET by PopularTechIf the small farmer can survive so be it. I also don't believe the big agro businesses should get subsidies or bailouts when they fail. Protectionism and central planning always fails and Economics does trump all.
The question I ask is why are you a socialist?
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pt....you
November 26, 2008 - 01:16 ET by porpoiseboyreally are an almost complete asshole. i see now why so many on this blog think so. i am not a socialist. i do believe however that there is something unique about the american small farm that makes it worth preserving beyond a mere curiousity. you really sound as if your morality is guided by your capitalism and not the other way around. how sad. i have noticed that when you get really self righteous about your little rants ( reminded of all your MANY palin posts the other day ) that you get very "troll-like" after a while. today is no different.
happy thanksgiving to all the nb'rs here and check back with you all in about a week.
cheers & signing off
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
if you think government
November 26, 2008 - 01:21 ET by Conservative Voiceif you think government should step in and help one business over another, than that makes you a socialist by degree. Because you agree that the government should use central planning to modify the behavior of how business is run.
No matter how cute the business is, or how holy...as soon as you steal from your neighbor so that you can have more income, its neither cute or holy.
It is not socialism when it
November 26, 2008 - 09:40 ET by amberIt is not socialism when it is for our national security. We are not talking cars and computers here, we are talking food, most states do not even tax food. We "subsidize" our military and no one says it is socialism.
With all of the hoorible products comming from China, even killing our pets, one would think people would be able to see why it is important to not just cut off farmers without protections for their business. Most farmers work outside of the farm for insurance and a stable income. Yes, the subsidies are stupid and poorly designed. The majority of the subsidies got to muti-million dollar corporations (those "oh so efficient" ones PT is lauding). But to cut the farming industry off like a bunch of fat, drunk, high, well fare factories is dangerous.
We "subsidize" our
November 26, 2008 - 10:04 ET by Jack BauerThat's because that would be a very very silly thing to say. No offense.
A military is a necessary, and justified, expenditure by a government for the self-defense of the people against threats.
Conservatives don't believe all taxation is unjustfied.
Some level of taxation is necessay to maintain an ordered society so all may prosper to the level of their talent and work.
"A military is a necessary,
November 26, 2008 - 10:16 ET by amber"A military is a necessary, and justified, expenditure by a government for the self-defense of the people against threats."
And food is not?
Are you being deliberately
November 26, 2008 - 10:18 ET by Jack BauerAre you being deliberately dense?
Are you? It seems to me
November 26, 2008 - 10:21 ET by amberAre you?
It seems to me that some people here think it is perfectly fine to let our food supply go the way of oil. Look where that got us. If we had our own supply and production of oil we would not have the same problems we have now. Oil is a weapon, food is a weapon.
If you read my other
November 26, 2008 - 10:24 ET by amberIf you read my other comments you will see I do not have problems with removing subsidies, but I do have problems with doing so without protecting our food supply. I did not say we should pay for all of the food. I said being able to produce our own food is vital to our national security. Drivng a GMC pick-up is not. Havingan brand new I-pod is not. Food is.
The military is a necessary
November 26, 2008 - 12:38 ET by Conservative VoiceThe military is a necessary government function, and is one of the expenditures the constitution says the government should pay for.
Food price controls is not a necessary government function. The market does a more efficient way in keeping farms healthy and strong. If government stopped with their farm welfare, it wouldn't cause food to disappear. It may cause some farms to be sold, only to be bought up by other farmers.
No one said anything about
November 26, 2008 - 13:00 ET by amberNo one said anything about getting rid of price controls, just the subsidies. So, in other words, bankrupt the farms.
Last time, get rid of farm subsidies, that's great, but do it smart, be careful not to bankrupt our farms and kill our domestic food supply. I don't agree with the statement "get rid of farm subsidies, period" if you get rid of them, then cancel trade agreements that are unequally benefitting other nations and hurting our farms and get rid of price controls. It would be fun to see people who grumble about the subsidies (which I agree are wrong) go buy a $10 gallon of milk and $8 a pound ground pork when the market adjusts itself. Maybe people will lose weight then.
subsidies is a form of price
November 26, 2008 - 13:14 ET by Conservative Voicesubsidies is a form of price control
By these same standards our
November 26, 2008 - 10:18 ET by amberBy these same standards our highways should not be subsidized either, we should all pay a toll and all unused highways should be closed.
We do pay a toll, its
November 26, 2008 - 12:33 ET by Conservative VoiceWe do pay a toll, its called a gas tax. They charge a gas tax to maintain roads and bridges, yet they always rob that fund to pay for various pet projects. If they were not allowed to use that money for anything other than roads and bridges, there would be plenty to use.
Fact the government makes more of a profit from gas than the oil companies.
Not really, if we really
November 26, 2008 - 13:02 ET by amberNot really, if we really paid a toll that would be free market roads, but I do not agree with that. A national highway system is a necessity for our military to get around if there is a war.
you missed the point that
November 26, 2008 - 13:18 ET by Conservative Voiceyou missed the point that our toll isn't paid to the toll booth, but at the pump.
And highways and such are a necesary government expenditure...but the highway funds are always robbed to pay for social programs, so that they can go to the people and claim there isn't enough to pay for the upkeep.
Yea CV, the "general fund" here in Hawaii
November 26, 2008 - 13:33 ET by upcountrywaterHawaii has the most vehicles per highway mile in the nation... No snow removal issues to speak of; no freeze damage, yet we have some of the worstest pot holed, rutted, roads in the USA..
DEMOCRAT
Aclu</
I do not understand Hawaii
November 26, 2008 - 14:03 ET by Conservative VoiceI do not understand Hawaii politics at all.
Morality Capitalism is still Socialism - Greed is Good
November 26, 2008 - 07:44 ET by PopularTechWho decides what should survive and what should not? Capitalism has nothing to do with morality (as defined by social conservatives), that is something social conservatives do not understand. This does not mean morality cannot be part of your businesses behavior only that it does not have the definition you believe. Smart, efficient well run businesses suceed and badly run ones fail - that is it, no good vs evil decision to ponder. Only government intervention can distort this. Successful businesses are not evil or bad, they should admired as great achievements in American society. The problem is the MSM hypes any and all corruption as how to be a successful capitalist and Hollywood paints the successful capitalist as evil and greedy but greed is good!
Successful businesses are successful because they serve their fellow man (the customer) better than their competitors. To some this can be considered "moral" but to social conservatives, morality is only what is taught in the bible. That is your right to believe this but Capitalism does not work that way. Capitalism is about tough love not handouts. I personally believe that to be "moral" others (usually social conservatives) believe it to be cold and heartless. Rewarding incompetence helps no one and communism and socialism has proven this true. Greed is good!
Greed (1/3) (Video) (12min) (John Stossel, ABC News)
Greed (2/3) (Video) (13min) (John Stossel, ABC News)
Greed (3/3) (Video) (14min) (John Stossel, ABC News)
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Most farms today are not
November 26, 2008 - 01:12 ET by Conservative VoiceMost farms today are not the family farm you speak of. And even then, farm subs hurt the farmer. They may get more money, but at what price? They have sold their soul to the government for 30 pieces of silver, for the market was their God. Show me where in the Bible the Lord said it was ok to steal from your neighbor?
He said to give to the poor, he never told the poor to rob the rich.
It is not about getting
November 26, 2008 - 09:43 ET by amberIt is not about getting money from the government, it is about letting our farmers compete. If it were something less necessary to our nation's survival then the business can fail, fine, but our food supply is vital. Who in the world is friend enough to the US that we can trust them to safely and efficently get us food at all times? Who? No one.
Ridiculous notions about the U.S. food supply
November 26, 2008 - 11:48 ET by PopularTechIf the U.S. stopped producing food, prices would skyrocket and people would starve. I have no idea where you get this notion that without protectionism the U.S would stop farming? That doesn't hold any relation to reality. What would happen is we would farm what is most efficient for us to farm and other countries would do the same, thereby optimizing the food supply and you would see more not less food.
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farming
November 26, 2008 - 12:30 ET by Conservative Voicethe notion that a particular business is to big to fail is a lie. If we lived by that rule, we would still be giving blacksmiths a good living.
Farmers are creative people, there are more than one way to get cash from your farm. For example, some corn farmers find that if they cut their field a certain way they can make thousands because they have made a corn maze.
The economy is never ever static. Giving them welfare only makes them less competitive. Our food supply is vital...but it won't disappear if you stopped giving farmers a welfare check.
it is interesting that the
November 26, 2008 - 01:14 ET by Conservative Voiceit is interesting that the pilgrims quickly learned that socialism would cause everyone to starve, and that with capitalism they would have a bountiful feast.
PT, you should stick to
November 26, 2008 - 09:31 ET by amberPT, you should stick to what you know. Farming is not one of those things. The so called "efficient" businesses are the worst to rely on for our food supply. If we did have a depression they would close up shop until people could afford their product. Farmers who own their businesses are better equipped to handle those situations because they do not have shareholders to anwer to if they decide to cut their profit (which they readily do when it is needed).
Farming should be inefficient? According to who? You?
November 26, 2008 - 11:52 ET by PopularTechMaybe we should abolish all modern farm equipment and go back to the ox drawn plow?
So what should farmers be inefficient and lazy and the Fed should just send them checks? LMAO!
People who cry protectionism do so because they are unable to compete with better run businesses. These inefficient businesses should go under and someone competent should run them.
In a free market, whatever is in high demand and demanding a high price will get investments to produce more of it, more efficiently. The only way to cause a depression is to try and centrally plan the farming industry like Hoover and FDR tried to do.
America's Great Depression (PDF) (368 pgs) (Murray N. Rothbard, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus of Economics, 2000)
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I did not say that, and you
November 26, 2008 - 12:19 ET by amberI did not say that, and you know it or you are too stupid and should brush up on your reading skills. You seem to think efficient means corporately run and now I gather you think non-corporate farmers are lazy. It is your so called efficient farmiing opperations with their hands in government money that would fail and if they fail our major seed providers fail (not just the US, but the world), if they fail, the small farms will not be able to step in with enough supply, if they fail, we place our country at risk of being held hostage to other nations who will have food (China for example, they recently purchesed large tracts of land in Brazil to fill their food needs). There are no American allies in the world who would be able to help if a crisis like that were to happen.
So, if subsidies go, that is great, but it must be well thought out and executed. I have enough food for my family and a few others, but your wise all-knowing self can just buy lead cabbage from our "friends".
Have a lovely day.
Hold on, now you are making up arguments
November 26, 2008 - 12:38 ET by PopularTechI said efficient, no where did I say corporate run. When I say more efficient, I mean more efficient, whoever does it better the little or big guy and neither should get any help if they fail.
So you support subsidizing the large agro businesses thinking they are too big to fail? Like CV says no one is too big to fail. Come on, the people who know how to run those farms will not disappear they will simply come under new management that is efficient and more competitive. Maybe instead of being a massive agro corporation they will be multiple medium sized private farm businesses. The thinking that no one would buy those businesses and farm valuable land for profit is not founded in reality.
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Can you even read? No
November 26, 2008 - 12:51 ET by amberCan you even read? No where did I say I support subsidies of any kind. I said we need to be caareful when we remove subsidies from the farming industry. I said I do not like subsidies, it would be great if they go, but unlike things like UN aid, we can not stop payment on our check. It needs to be done very carefully.
For example, if we remove subsidies what will happen to our trade agreements?
Columbia:
We are renegotiating trade agreements with other nations, but the US sees our farms as benevolent businesses that will be happy with whatever they work out for them. How can we sell our product in the US when we get cheaper products from other countries? How can we sell r product in other countries when they charge their people extra if they buy our product. The current negotiations with Columbia have a Dep of Ag giddy with excitement because Columbia has agreed not to charge their people extra for 52% of our agricultural exports!! Yippee!! While we do not charge anything for their imports. At the same time our government puts price controls on our product sold here so you all can buy $2 eggs and $3 milk. Get rid of subsidies, fine, free market, fine, but do it right, do it smart, and keep in mind that we need a domestic food supply.
Subsidies are price
November 26, 2008 - 00:52 ET by babooSubsidies are price controls. They prevent markets from accurately allocating resources. Just because other countries are doing it does not make it OK for us to do it, too.
Doing what other countries have done (i.e., that we, in the 1930's adopted Europe's entitlement culture) has brought us nothing but pain and failure.
Say we end tariffs, as well as subsidies. OK, for a time foreign food might be cheaper as our agriculture sector realigns itself with reality, and the value of food produced in the U.S. increases due to the lack of government subsidy. But foreign tariffs cause less U.S. food to be sold overseas, and causes more U.S. food to be consumed locally. How is this bad, again?
Price controls are always eventually destructive. We're, as a nation, learning this firsthand, right now, as we speak. Let's learn from our mistakes, take the beating we've earned, and then move on with life, doing it the right way - the American way.
If you don't believe that the U.S. can compete on a global market, then move somewhere else. We just need to be unfettered from government, we need to realize that we have to produce at least as much as we consume, and I leave the rest up to American ingenuity and work ethic. If you can't have faith in that, then what as an American, *can* you have faith in?
We can not compete in the
November 26, 2008 - 10:09 ET by amberWe can not compete in the global food market. Here is a little lesson for you...
I raise lamb, it costs me $30 to feed the ewe hay in the winter, $5 for grain, $5 for meds, $15 for bedding, $5 for shearing, $1 for electricity, $5 for fencing (repair), $2 for meds and care for the lamb / lambs (many will have 2), $10 for creap feed for the lambs. If I already have the ewe and have a ram (the ram costs money to feed and care for too, but let's say he doesn't) let's also assume I already have the property, fences (those cost a lot of $$$), and buildings and I own them (not likely). I have just spent $78 for one lamb to go to market, or if I am lucky and the ewe has twins I spent $90. Market prices for slaughter lambs range between $75 and $120. $90 is the average price. How much did I make? Can I feed my family of 5 on that? Remeber, I did not include, property tax, mortgage, insurance, major medical needs (vet), losses (what if the lamb and ewe dies? what if stray dog gets in my pastures and kills 40% of my herd (very likely)? Also, bear in mind that lamb is not subsidized. The only way I can lower my costs is to lower the cost of feed (some farmers who get subsidies do give me a nice break on feed costs) and bedding. My ewes also must twin at least 75% of the time, but if I breed for that I may get some having tripplets and that is not great either because now I have to give them milk replacer (another cost).
So, why do I do it? I eat cheaper because I can butcher my own lamb (only about 40 lbs total meat), I can give local families good food for a slightly lower cower cost (they buy the animal from me for premium cost so I make more money and send the animal to a local butcher and they do not pay grocery store profits), and I also know what I fed them. When the ethanol subsidies started, the price of feed doubled in less than a year. Hog producers were losing money with each hog and were closing facilities. Large producers. Big producers, the "efficient" ones were and still are laying off people and closing plants. Smaller producers kept producing. You may say that is an argument against subsidies and in part it is, but more so, it's an argument against high animal feed costs.
But, go ahead and buy all of your meat and cheese and vegies from China and Chaves, I prefer to eat lead free food.
amber,
November 26, 2008 - 10:23 ET by AgnosticI'm not saying you are entirely wrong but even you noticed that in large part government regulation caused many of your troubles and you are expecting further regulations to get you out of your problems. That very well may work but as you have also noticed government intervention only shifts the problem to someone else it does not solve the problem.
I won't profess to know the specifics of your region or even of your industry but I have a family member that married into a mid-sized family owned cattle ranch that was slowly failing. They are doing quite well now due to direct to market sales, internet sales and pre-ordered package sales. I'm not saying that these would work for you but merely stating that as long as the market allows enough freedom there is almost always options. Government will take away options and confine businesses to operate within a certain paradigm in order to continue receiving $$.
Agnostic
November 26, 2008 - 10:27 ET by amberShow me where I said I am expecting further regulations...I said I agree with doing away with subsidies, but it has to be done in a way that it protects our food supply.
I am doing quite well too thank you.
food supply
November 26, 2008 - 10:36 ET by Agnostic"protects our food supply" - That is where I got the idea of regulations from.
As long as the food supply is a for profit business then it must be subject to the laws that govern markets otherwise it will experience the same problems every other regulated market must contend with but it will be much worse since the profit margin so low.
For what it is worth I agree that we should be able to feed ourselves as a nation but if you let the government make decisions on that level they will decide how much each person needs to eat, subsidize to that level of production and punish production beyond that level. On top of that will decide what 'geen' methods you need to use to produce the food and what foods need to provided for the nation according to the latest PC fad.
The food supply will protect itself
November 26, 2008 - 12:12 ET by PopularTechThe mere fact that people are starving all over the world is enough reason to understand that our domestic food supply will never disappear. Where are you basing your irrational notion that without protectionism our food supply would disappear?
Yes of course some of our domestic agricultural businesses may change to something more efficient for us to grow but it would not disappear.
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High animal feed costs are caused by government subsidies
November 26, 2008 - 12:01 ET by PopularTechYour problem is still the government. Government subsidies of corn for ethanol production are part of the problem.
Ethanol, Corn To Weigh Heavily On Future Of Livestock Industry (Science Daily)
Americans still prefer to eat U.S. made food but the price can easily be decided by the market without the government.
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not only that, but our food
November 26, 2008 - 09:26 ET by ambernot only that, but our food supply is also vital to our national security, look at our oil problems, do we really want to rely on potential enemies to provide our food for us? what if there is a conflict? what would happen to the rest of the world if the US stopped being a major food grower? people would starve, not just here in time of conflict, they would starve in the very countries where the food is porduced. My family would be fine because we raise most of our own food, but not everyone has 20 acres in fertile country to do that. what would happen to us too if food became scarce because of world war or famine in the contries that supply our food? my farm would be in danger, my family would be in danger, starving people would break into my property and steal what we produced and possibly kill us in the process. we must produce our food, no matter the cost. PT has too much data and not a lot of common sense.
Energy Independence is a Myth
November 26, 2008 - 12:06 ET by PopularTechFirst off, I completely support domestic drilling but complete energy indepedence is a myth.
Myths About Breaking Our Foreign Oil Habit (The Washington Post)
The Idiocy of Energy Independence (John Stossel, ABC News)
- Only 16% of U.S. oil imports come from the Middle East (EIA)
- The largest supplier of oil to the U.S. is Canada (EIA)
- The second largest supplier of oil to the U.S. is Mexico (EIA)
- Only 0.005% of U.S. domestic oil production is exported (EIA)
We will always produce our own food and energy but never completely. Government does nothing but cause food and energy shortages with intervention in the market.
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ending subsidies
November 26, 2008 - 14:19 ET by katainkentending subsidies does not mean ending farms. In fact subsidizing does more harm than good (youtube vid). Obama says he might even look at it for cutting back. Here is what heritage.org has to say on the matter. And if you're really curious about how much food we produce : USDA Factbook.
Thought some facts might help. Lots to read, then decide.
member of the Conservative Independant Witness Protection Program since Nov. 5, 2008
reelman... #5 is one that
November 25, 2008 - 19:21 ET by Clear thinkerreelman...
#5 is one that I would change drastically. I would cut off ALL funding to the UN. Why should taxpayers money go to an organization that has become an anti-American mouthpeice for our enemies.
This Years Christmas Gift - Guns
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
Ct... Ditto. "America isn't
November 25, 2008 - 19:24 ET by bigtimerCt...
Ditto.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
In addition to that, Obama
November 25, 2008 - 19:52 ET by motherbeltIn addition to that, Obama wants to pledge another $845 billion in the Global Poverty Act.
I believe it failed last time around, but don't be surprised if Obama tries to get it revived.
This paragraph explains why:
It appears the Senate version is being pushed not only by Biden and Obama, a member of the committee, but Lugar, the ranking Republican member. Lugar has worked with Obama in the past to promote more foreign aid for Russia, supposedly to stem nuclear proliferation, and has become Obama’s mentor. Like Biden, Lugar is a globalist. They have both promoted passage of the U.N.’s Law of the Sea Treaty, for example.
Yeah mb, if memory serves
November 25, 2008 - 20:09 ET by bigtimerYeah mb, if memory serves me right Coburn held up that bill...thank goodness...and as always, good old POS Lugar is not any friend of mine for the most part, I cannot stand that guy, he goes quietly unnoticed, as far as I am concerned he is a lot like Hagel in some ways...
One of the first things that will be pushed through arm in arm with McC and other RINOs will be the Amnesty bill...with of course the Fearless Leader Reid leading the way...after-all he has to bring the bill up, last I saw, it was titled the Dream Act, (which we defeated) and I heard somewhere today that is just what he is going to do.
We aren't going to be able to stop anything most likely, I pray Chambliss wins in Ga. plus Coleman, who had turned more centrist quite a lot in the last year and a half with his votes, which truly disappointed me from when he first got in, it's always the up-coming elections with these critters, it really gets old.
No matter how you look at it, we conservatives are forked.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
Sending $ to those that hate us
November 25, 2008 - 20:10 ET by general companyHas been working out so well for America, but lets be sure not to help any of our buds. I am afraid they wont be able to make enough duct tape to save us all.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
I agree with all
November 26, 2008 - 09:19 ET by amberI agree with all except...
cut all state monies except for highways, those are vital to our national security.
cut all federal agangies, except military, increase there.
cut all farm subsidies gradually with checks to secure our food supply (I know most farmers do not directly supply food to your tables, but they do indirectly. Corn and soybeans are the main ingredients in animal feeds.)
start carying out criminal sentences, executing people on death row and make a mandatory death sentence for those who sexually abuse children,
make the loser in law suits pay all legal fees and any lost wages to the party they are suing and hold the money in a seperate acount until after the trial to be sure it is there in case they lose
get out of the UN, and cut all funds to all foreign governments, not just by half. Let the US citizens decide who they will help and who they will not. I do not approve of government welfare for our citizens nor for any other ones
review labor union laws and give our struggling industries a legal way out of bad labor contracts
remove all federal funding from the schools, including universities. You want federal funding? Join the army.
Our tax money should go to our defense (including roads) and the general running of the government and some natural resources like upkeep of our memorials and some national parks.
"review labor union laws and
November 26, 2008 - 09:46 ET by Agnostic"review labor union laws and give our struggling industries a legal way out of bad labor contracts "
I have to emphatically disagree with this statement. While I believe your sentiment is in the right place contracts need to have legal validity if an economic system is going to be stable. I believe in this case what needs to be done is that all governmental influences that create a positive atmosphere for unions need to be done away with. Union themselves are not a horrible idea but when they develop too much power then they are used in corrupt ways. Properly unions could develop a balance of powers between labor and management that would create an adequate work environment and wages while reigning in bloated payouts to executives. However this doesn't come about due to the typical corruption that exhibits itself whenever a group claims to be supporting the 'working people'.
If the company goes
November 26, 2008 - 10:36 ET by amberIf the company goes bankrupt, it can do away with bad labor agreements, so, sorry, if the federal government does not step in and Detroit goes bankrupt, the labor unions will have screwed their members because GM will still make cars, but they will not be paying medical insurance for people who retired 15 years ago not te mention what will happen to their salaries. All because the union was greedy.
I agree that unions can be a good thing, but most often they are not. Did you know that Federal Military Technitians have a union? You should read their contract. If you went by the union rules techs would get paid 40 hours for only 32 hours worked. Funny, but the union was still able to neggotiate a contract like that all while being barred from striking (legally federal military techs can not strike).
It would be better if there were no unions. We already have enough laws restricting employees and workers.
unions
November 26, 2008 - 10:51 ET by AgnosticAs a manager for the last 15 years I am fully anti-union in mentality I just recognize that they can be a check against corporate greed when and if the union is run properly. I agree on a method to restructure existing contracts but the validity of contract still needs to be upheld. Penalties must be paid by companies for what they gain or it will only promote further 'poor business decisions' believing they have a back door out of a crisis.
I didn't know about the FMT but I knew the yard workers in the Navy had a sweet deal. The guy that essentially did my job made 4 times as much and worked 1/2 the hours.
unions
November 26, 2008 - 10:53 ET by AgnosticAs a manager for the last 15 years I am fully anti-union in mentality I just recognize that they can be a check against corporate greed when and if the union is run properly. I agree on a method to restructure existing contracts but the validity of contract still needs to be upheld. Penalties must be paid by companies for what they gain or it will only promote further 'poor business decisions' believing they have a back door out of a crisis.
I didn't know about the FMT but I knew the yard workers in the Navy had a sweet deal. The guy that essentially did my job made 4 times as much and worked 1/2 the hours.
unions
November 26, 2008 - 10:53 ET by AgnosticAs a manager for the last 15 years I am fully anti-union in mentality I just recognize that they can be a check against corporate greed when and if the union is run properly. I agree on a method to restructure existing contracts but the validity of contract still needs to be upheld. Penalties must be paid by companies for what they gain or it will only promote further 'poor business decisions' believing they have a back door out of a crisis.
I didn't know about the FMT but I knew the yard workers in the Navy had a sweet deal. The guy that essentially did my job made 4 times as much and worked 1/2 the hours.
delete repeated post.
November 26, 2008 - 11:35 ET by amberdelete repeated post.
I totally agree. These
November 26, 2008 - 11:34 ET by amberI totally agree. These business must pay the consequences of the market. It is wrong to ask consumers to pay for their mistakes not only because we should not pay for them, but also because us paying will only prolong the agony or necessitate more payments to them.
I just think it is a bad idea to cut all farm subsidies at once. Adjustments should be gradual and well thought out. I also do not think it is an option to let our farms fail, only from a national security standpoint. It has nothing to do with benevolence to farmers.
Erin Burnett was out of her
November 25, 2008 - 21:59 ET by stratmanErin Burnett was out of her league in the Gold video.
She actually says "gold has no inherent value like oil which does."
Even if she meant "intrinsic" value, which is the word that Peter Schiff uses to describe gold's value, Burnett would be unequivocably incorrect on both accounts.
I love these clowns who say
November 25, 2008 - 19:13 ET by ckc1227I love these clowns who say that since the economy was good under Clinton, it had to be because of higher taxes, because, after all, he raised taxes. That makes as much sense as saying the economy was good because he was having sex with an intern.
Gee, you think that maybe the economy was good DESPITE the higher taxes, and, most likely, would have been even better had taxes been lower?
No no, that's crazy talk, lol. It had to be the higher taxes. That's why all those other countries with higher tax rates than us run circles around us economically. Oh wait, they don't.
Morons.....
15 years ago...
November 25, 2008 - 20:46 ET by jackie3We had a manufacturing industry. I could easily find a job in the local want adds which was 8 pages long. Those jobs are gone now. Gas was cheap. Insurance was lower, min wage was lower. Taxes were high compared to income levels but cost of living was cheaper. Cell phones were rather new. Internet was the newest hot thing.
Since then my husband has endured 2 wage freezes...one which lasted 7 years. Another currently. Lost most of the over time that was offered. Business (including tool and die--a manufacturing back bone) have gone belly up.
But credit cards have become easier to get (till recently) and more accepted in stores. My mail box got loan offers in it every day. (not anymore though.) Our economy changed into a credit based economy with no sound industry for job support (except health care and schools).
In my county the census from 15+ years ago till the latest (few years ago) showed a drop in residence. We have had no growth and actually lost people. There was a increase in the next county (rochester) but it was stagnate compared to the south.
In my home town we have lost a major department store (ames) as well as grocery store that was in business for 30 years. All the other stores were bought out by national chain stores. We have more drug stores now than back then and less people. We have seen more illegal immigrants coming up for the apple harvest, taking jobs for legal citizens. We have seen college increase in tuition by 400 percent. We have a ton of used car dealers. New car sales have been dropping even in rochester steadily for years. New cars cost too much. I live a few miles from lake Ontario. Normally we have a huge sport fishing industry, summer resort...all nearly dead now. I see lots of used boats for sale now. Ya gotta be rich to afford one now.
We used to have a solid manufacturing base with invocations coming out of rochester. We are still numb 2 in apple harvest but no jobs for white people in that industry. All our manufacturing giants that are left have cut back on workers to a fraction of what it was 15 years ago.
Tax cuts are great but we need more reasons for jobs to stay here and not go abroad.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Tax cuts are great but we
November 25, 2008 - 21:00 ET by Gat New YorkTax cuts are great but we need more reasons for jobs to stay here and not go abroad.
The keys for job growth is business growth particularly with companies with high growth strategies. Most local and state governments have no imagination because if they did they would find ways of providing incentives to attract new industries with tax incentives and grants. Even the federal government should have been more aggressive in providing incentives for new energy technology. All of which means jobs.
Declining industries mean declining jobs. Growth industries mean more jobs.
The Market can decide what energy we use
November 25, 2008 - 22:04 ET by PopularTechGovernment just needs to get out of the way. If you want to increase job growth then the government needs to lower taxes and remove the red tape, the market will create jobs on it's own. Central planning through incentives always leads to malinvestment. Only the market can decide where best to allocate resources.
If there was better energy technology we would be using it already.
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The cause of the demise of
November 26, 2008 - 01:47 ET by NL207The cause of the demise of your area is high taxes and oppressive government regulation. Look around the entire upstate New York region. Point to any city there that is economically healthy excepting Albany, where all the bottom feeders live. There aren't any, are there? That is no accident. You folks would be better off if you'd erect a new state line at the Rockland-Westchester County line. Then you could put a very large water meter on that aqueduct that runs down to the Bronx. You could also put a very large electric meter on the power transmission lines that parallel that aqueduct.
Where are our jobs going? How about China?
November 25, 2008 - 21:52 ET by MichiganVetMy wife and I now attempt to determine where any product we purchase has been manufactured. And it is astounding how much is imported from China - and better yet, how no one in government even recognizes this, let along shows concern.
Check for yourselves - when you go into a store or order online, check to see where the product is made and at least consider purchasing an American-made product.
I know there are NB bloggers who believe in "free market no matter what", but they are, in my opinion, not looking at reality. This theory works with a "level playing field" - which is a rare situation. At some point, even those "free market" thinkers may have a 2nd thought once their jobs are in jeopardy.
And never forget U.S. manufactures compete not only with foreign competition, but often with their countries as well - that's not a level playing field.
God Bless America
I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy
"I know there are NB
November 25, 2008 - 23:04 ET by ckc1227"I know there are NB bloggers who believe in "free market no matter
what", but they are, in my opinion, not looking at reality. This
theory works with a "level playing field" - which is a rare situation.
At some point, even those "free market" thinkers may have a 2nd thought
once their jobs are in jeopardy."
Nothing about the free market guarantees you'll have the same job your entire life, or that some jobs won't go away. In fact, in a free market, that's virtually guaranteed. That's why most buggy whip manufacturers went out of business. Just because someone's job is in jeopardy isn't an argument against free markets any more than someone's life being in jeopardy is an argument against riding a bike. Sh*t happens. We don't live in a perfect world, and there is nothing we can do to make it perfect.
But what's ironic is you're in a state that is dying BECAUSE there is no free market there, lol. Maybe government should require the non-Big 3 car companies located elsewhere to adopt Detroit's business killing policies too.....you know, to level the playing field.
If you want jobs to stop leaving, stop doing things to run them off. Seriously, what do you think is going to happen once cap and trade gets inacted? Say buh bye to even more jobs. And then will you complain that it's not fair when they leave to go to a country that wasn't dumb enough to do the same?
By the way, did you know China was losing manufacturing jobs at a higher rate than the USA?
What a great thread
November 26, 2008 - 14:57 ET by general companyBy the way, did you know China was losing manufacturing jobs at a higher rate than the USA?
Realy, to whom?
This is really a great thread, but I really think most folks here are in agreement. Most of us believe that all Gov. subsidies and bailouts are wrong. Problem is they have been handed out so long they are now a crutch to prop up the particular commodity, at least where the US is concerned. Also I think we all believe that the American worker should have a level field in witch to make his trade, that is also a pipe dream due to our corporate tax rates and trade policies. The real problem is (this is for all of you calling others socialist) our taxes and trade and subsidies have gotten so prevalent, the Gov. so top heavy, that realistically any sane person realizes this isn't going to change overnight. I know I dont have the answers on how to remove these obstacles other then at the polls, other then that? I also dont know how to prevent even more nonsense then at the polls.
Is it by anyone definition what we are today, socialist?
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
people who think gov't is the solution ...
November 25, 2008 - 21:59 ET by ckncook... are often people who have never created a proper one.
http://afencepost.bl...
Didn't Even Know It
November 25, 2008 - 22:21 ET by Copperhead RidgeWow! I just discovered that I was wealthy in 1993. I was three years into my career, working long hours, scraping by, living in a crappy apartment, and driving a Toyota with 268,000 miles on it.
I must have been wealthy, though, because Bill Clinton raised my taxes, and according to these jacklegs' statements, he only raised taxes on the wealthy.
I was wealthy and didn't enjoy a minute of it. Heck, I'm Bill Gates now compared to my income in 1993. I guess I blocked the memories of jet-set traveling, sports cars, ample women, and a fine home from my mind.
Somewhere along the line
November 26, 2008 - 00:23 ET by RR GOPSomewhere along the line economics (along with history, political science, psychology, education, journalism and the other social sciences) has been hijacked by the Communists. Those are the areas (along with law) that have the greatest influence in society and requires the least amount of real learning and academic rigor (you know, as compared to astronomy, chemistry, physics, biology, engineering, mathematics and the like).
They do not produce, invent, nor improve anything. They manipulate what others have already figured out to fit their ideology.
I'm not even sure they actually teach free market economics anymore at Berkeley, Columbia, and the other Leftist universities.
The only economist I trust is one who's made a lot of money.
One of the 24% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 89% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
"The only economist I trust
November 26, 2008 - 00:52 ET by MightyMouth"The only economist I trust is one who's made a lot of money"
Those are exactly the people the government CANNOT hire, hence the problem we are in. Gooberment out!, free markets in. It's a no brainer.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
The amount of money is not
November 26, 2008 - 00:58 ET by Conservative VoiceThe amount of money is not the best qualifier of who is to be trusted with the economy. Warren is not a trustworthy economist...he likes to claim things so that the market will respond in his favor...but they aren't economically sound ( for example he is for the estate tax, because it benefits him. )
Sirota is a clown....
November 26, 2008 - 08:59 ET by taocpaGrover is correct, you have to watch Congress. They are responsible for fiscal matters, not the president. The last time I read the Constitution, under Article I, Section 7, it says:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of
Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
So the only thing the President can do is ask. His cronies in the House can do his bidding. It's the usual joke of liberals who think the President can do as he wishes when he gets elected.
If "The Chosen One" raises taxes, wealthy people will have less money to spend or save, less money going into the economy that needs it and it will prolong the recession. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
I still can't believe none of these reporters seriously looked at Obama's economic plan. The windfall profit tax was tried once and a disaster, one of his proposals actually takes jobs out of the economy, his tax cut is not a real tax cut and it's the wrong prescription for what ails the economy. Why they never checked this guy out in the first place is beyond me.
Tom