It takes a breathtaking lack of self-awareness, or selective amnesia, or just bald hypocrisy for the left-wing blogosphere to speculate on the cause of “right-wing hatemongering.” But there it was on Sept. 21 – an article asserting that the “anti-Obama hyperventilating” was the result of … Christianity.
Appearing on Alternet.org, Frank Schaeffer’s “Right-Wing Hatemongering Fueled by Christianity?” suggested that resistance to the Obama program comes from “the ugliest side of religion.”
“The fact is,” wrote Schaeffer, “that if you're going to blame one group above all others for the willful ignorance and continuing ugliness of the response to President Obama the best candidate would be the evangelical/fundamentalist community.”
Schaeffer wrote that former president Jimmy Carter was correct when he recently asserted that racism was behind the passionate anti-Obama reaction. But Carter fell short in not explicitly linking that racism to his own religion – Evangelical Christianity. “The angry part of the South Carter spoke of is racist because it's dominated by a certain type of ‘Christian’ culture,” Schaeffer wrote.
In case there was any doubt about Schaeffer’s message, he went on: “The people running around calling Obama is ‘Hitler’, the so-called ‘birthers’ and all the rest can't be understood outside of the context of the hermetically sealed world-hating gated community known as Evangelical Christianity.”
Then, like an anthropologist reporting on a strange, primitive tribe, he went on to describe evangelicals as having been “left behind by modernity” and couldn’t resist the standard left-wing comparison of evangelicals to jihadists.
“The bestselling status of the Left Behind novels proves that, not unlike Islamist terrorists who behead their enemies, many evangelical/ fundamentalist readers relish the prospect of God doing lots of messy killing for them as they watch in comfort from on high. They want revenge on all people not like them – forever.”
Furthermore, Schaeffer said, all these home-schooling, federal government-hating end-timers pose an imminent threat. “They now form a Fifth Column of the deliberately intellectually disenfranchised. They know they are out of the loop and hate the rest of us for their own self-imposed isolation. I'm afraid they will soon turn to violence.”
To Schaeffer, who wrote that he grew up evangelical and still calls himself a believer, the only answer is to rescue Christianity from the “willfully ignorant evangelicals and fundamentalists.” Oh, and to buy his soon-to-be-released book, “Patience With God: Faith For People Who Don't Like Religion (Or Atheism).”
And once you’ve read his book, Schaeffer would like you to join him in reclaiming Jesus for the Left. If you join him to “build a better vision … Perhaps a generation from now the image of a typical Christian won't be a hate-monger like James Dobson but rather a lover of peace such as Bishop Desmond Tutu, or a literary giant like John Updike, and yes, a President Obama.”





















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Abortion
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:34 ET by sevenOpposition to abortion and obama lying about abortion seems to under gird this false accusation.
does the left have an explanation why Obama lies about abortion?
I don't know that he's that
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:36 ET by arkansaszippersI don't know that he's that far off base on this one. Part of Christianity, and of most religions, is KNOWING that you're right, so whatever you do is ok, because you KNOW that you can decide right from wrong. I guess it's most religions, but Christianity is the predominant religion of this country, so it often gets used as an example.
→ Zippers
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:40 ET by Cool ArrowI don't know that he's that far off base on this one.
Fits your narrative, does it?
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
I just think that when you
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:52 ET by arkansaszippersI just think that when you have a group of people that believe that they are doing God's work, it can become a very dangerous situation if those people don't try and understand that there are other people who believe in other Gods, and even other people who don't believe in any God, and that it's ok for people to believe different things.
Zippy, only two religions...
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:01 ET by vrwc13Zippy, only two religions...
Suggest you do some homework and decide for yourself whose side you are on. It just might have an 'eternal' significance.
v
So whose side is Islam on?
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:08 ET by arkansaszippersSo whose side is Islam on? Or Hinduism? Or Buddhism? What do you mean, exactly?
Islam
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:19 ET by Indiana Joe"I just think that when you have a group of people that believe that they are doing God's work, it can become a very dangerous situation if those people don't try and understand that there are other people who believe in other Gods, and even other people who don't believe in any God, and that it's ok for people to believe different things." - arkansaszippers
You described Islam to a "T" in your previous post, yet you can ask that question?
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
So all 1 and a half billion
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:26 ET by arkansaszippersSo all 1 and a half billion followers of Islam is a potential terrorist then? What do you even know about Islam?
→ Enough
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:30 ET by Cool ArrowEnough to know they keep their mouths shut when it comes to their terrorist wing.
Were that not so, I think you'd have heard Mullahs and Imams throughout the world condemning the pigs that brought down the Towers.
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
I know that Muhammed
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:38 ET by Indiana JoeI know that Muhammed preached that they should kill all "unbelievers."
That's enough for me.
Besides, you're claiming that over 2 billion Christians are potential terrorists. What do you know of them?
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
I'm not claiming that at
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:45 ET by arkansaszippersI'm not claiming that at all. I just think there is a lot of potential for disagreement and hatred when it comes to organized religion. That's all. It's hard to have a discussion with somebody that has a book that they can interpret in any way in order to make them right on the subject. It kills any kind of possible compromise.
Zip, Jesus didn't ask for
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:50 ET by vrwc13Zip, Jesus didn't ask for compromise...He said you are either with Him or against Him. Period.
v
Sigh. Where to begin? Pick a sentence and roll with it, I guess
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:33 ET by lotr"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
You aren't even making any
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:39 ET by arkansaszippersYou aren't even making any sense. I'm sorry, was the term "organized religion" too redundant for you? I'm pretty sure it's a commonly used term - I didn't make it up. And what's this comment about hatred being meaningless in a world devoid of god? What does that even mean? I'm sorry, I probably don't attend church as much as you, so please, enlighten me.
OK, we'll try this again
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:08 ET by lotrIt's a simple yes or no question, meant to get you to think outside the box. "Organized" is an adjective modifying the noun, one that automatically suggests the existence of "disorganized religion", something that sounds rather ridiculous, I'll admit. So, yes: It is a redundant terminology. Which now leads me to another question: By whom is it commonly used, and why?
Ok, well I can see this is
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:36 ET by arkansaszippersOk, well I can see this is going nowhere. Sorry if I don't take your passive-agressive line of questioning seriously - I just have a problem having a discussion with somone who's obviously so much better than me. You read what I wrote, and it was perfectly clear. Organized religion is a common term used by many different people; if there's something I'm not picking up, than just say it. I am not going to sit here and try and define hatred for you - you're clearly going somewhere with this, so just get to the point and spare me your pretentious attitude.
I see too that it is going nowhere
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:03 ET by lotr"Passive agressive"? Huh??? I suggest clearly in my last posting that things would move along smoother if you did not focus on my person but rather the discussion, but I can see this was disregarded.
"Better than you"? Sorry, but I'm not the one who came in here with guns ablazing with inflammatory statements about religions and believers, particularly Christianity and Christians. Nevertheless, there is nothing, and I do mean nothing, in my text that conveys anything about my disposition as to superiority or pretentiousness. Just trying to engage, rather than preach. How else does one engage than by asking questions? (damn, another question)
But fair enough; if you insist, I'll just "get to the point." If there's no God, then this is all meaningless. Period. There is no other way around it. Hatred? A mindless dance of atoms, no different than anything else, including this very dialogue. There is no moral high ground, and all behaviors are legitimate, as they motivated by amoral, unthinking, unfeeling forces. Life is a meaningless illusion. That's the context for a society without "religion."
"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
I think the thought that we
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:20 ET by arkansaszippersI think the thought that we may not understand the meaning of life is what scares people, and religion fufills that need. I think religion serves a very important purpose, but there are some nasty side-effects. But life being meaningless and not knowing what the meaning is are two different things.
AZ, you came in agreeing with an absurd statement concerning
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:32 ET by pahuberChristianity. Now you want to say that we just do not understand?
Let me ask you if you know the basic difference between a cult or a religion.
Do you understand the word hermeneutics or exegesis?
Following?
If you understand the above words... then let me ask you how much effort other religions of this world place on these concepts with their sacred scripture...
If you understand this then even if you do not believe in God or Jesus you would at least understand the significance of correct interpretation on scripture. I know of no organized churches that use this scripture to kill their enemies... rather they are to love their enemies.
preached that they should kill all "unbelievers."
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:48 ET by vrwc13preached that they should kill all "unbelievers."
Joe be fair now, it's kill them or let them to 'servants' to them. Hmm didn't the man in the Whitehouse ask our kids to do the later?
v
...an error was made in 2008
→ Right Zip
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:06 ET by Cool ArrowWe've got the cops and the FBI combing New York city, even as we speak, trying to root out those Fundamentalist Christians and their suicide backpacks.
You need to remember, when your only claim to legitimacy is the introductory phrase "I just think", you might want to bring your best logical argument.
But you can't even grasp the irony of reporting on violent Christians while NYC is on pins and needles over a bunch of Muslims.
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
I didn't say one religion
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:10 ET by arkansaszippersI didn't say one religion was better than another, or that any religion was defined by their most radical followers. I was just making a comment about religion in general; I wasn't trying to offend anyone.
Yes, you did
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:23 ET by Indiana JoeYou yourself defined Christianity "by their most radical followers." How many of these "radical followers" can you point to? Do you even know what Jesus preached? He didn't preach world conquest, bub, I can tell you that much!
And you were precisely "trying to offend," else what was the point of that post?
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
Voicing my opinion on some
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:28 ET by arkansaszippersVoicing my opinion on some faults of organized religion isn't "trying to offend," just because you don't agree with me. Maybe I should be more politically correct next time...
AZ, you are being
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:35 ET by Indiana JoeAZ, you are being politically correct, by jumping on the old, faithful, "blame the Christians" leftist bandwagon.
Don't sell yourself short. It worked for the Romans.
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
Yes, now I'm just towing the
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:49 ET by arkansaszippersYes, now I'm just towing the party line. I don't really believe anything I say. Just because I'm not a radical conservative doesn't make me a radical liberal. I had stronger beliefs about religion before I even understood the world of politics.
And God's "work" as you put
Wed, 09/23/2009 - 08:58 ET by misterbee241And God's "work" as you put it can only be measured by His Word. Jesus never told us to kill non believers but to pray for our enemies. The liberals who disparage Christianity dont understand it is not a religion but a relationship. Therein lies the problem.
Those who call themselves Christian and spreading "hate" as you put it are doing the work of their father, The Devil as Jesus said in John 8:44. Of course these days if you disagree with anybody you are spreading hate and racism. Hate and racism is in the eye of the beholder.
And it's a free country - one can believe or not believe in the one true God, many gods, or no gods at all. My God tells me to spread the gospel to all the world and not at the point of a sword or gun.
"I dont need to read a newspaper to know the world's been shaved by a drunken barber."
Walter Brennan, The Colonel, Meet John Doe, 1941
isn't Obama a Christian?
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:07 ET by candanceand don't his supporters use Jesus as a model for social activism? And haven't his critics been protesting big government ever since the 90s?
I swear, liberals woke up January 20 with anmesia and now have no recollection of how HillaryCare died in 1994.
My 2nd rebuttal
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:39 ET by lotrWow. You couldn't be more mistaken or misinformed. Just the opposite, in fact. One of the central tenants of Christianity is KNOWING that you're wrong, a vile sinner in the eyes of the Living God; right and wrong were defined eons before you even came into existence, with absolutely no input from you. This belief, in fact, is quite unique to Christianity and Judaism. Islam, on the other hand, quite easily allows for self-righteousness (from my own deduction), as Charity is not considered the pinnacle of Theological Virtues.
"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
As Gandhi said: I
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:45 ET by arkansaszippersAs Gandhi said:
I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Zip, in response to your Gandhi one-liner...
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:55 ET by vrwc13Zip, in response to your Gandhi one-liner...
We Christains aren't perfect, just forgiven.
Are you?
v
On Gandhi..
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:01 ET by mastersofdeceitGandhi voluntered to join the British army in South Africa to kill blacks. They rejected him. Yeah real peace loving guy. Also liked to get nude massages daily from young girls.
Gandhi was wrong
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:35 ET by lotrSt. Joseph, her most chaste spouse
St. John the Baptist (beheaded)
The Apostles Peter (crucified upside down) and Paul (decapitated)
The remaining Apostles except John
St. Stephen (stoned to death)
St. Lawrence (roasted alive)
St. Bartholomew (flayed alive)
St. Joan of Arc (sexually assaulted in prison and burned at the stake)
St. Thomas More (decapitated)
St. Isaac Jogues (fingers cut off; clubbed to death; beheaded)
St. Maximilian Kolbe (starved, dehydrated and finally poisoned)
St. Maria Goretti (multiple stab wounds while resisting rape to protect her virginity)
St. Edith Stein (Auschwitz gas chamber)
St. Gianna (physician who died from complications of child birth)
Mother Theresa of Calcutta (a life devoted to heroic Christian charity serving the poorest of the poor)
etc.
"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
I'm pretty sure he meant
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:38 ET by arkansaszippersI'm pretty sure he meant christians in general. I understand there are people of all religions who do good things.
So Gandhi generalized.
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:48 ET by lotrSo Gandhi generalized. Big no-no. And then to use that generalization to come to a conclusion about the truthfulness of a belief system? Needless to say, the statement is invalid.
"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
I was using the quote to
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:59 ET by arkansaszippersI was using the quote to comment on the fact that so many Christians act in direct opposition to the teachings of the Bible. If you asked somebody with no prior knowledge of Christianity to observe the behaviour and actions of Christians for a year and then try and write the bible based on what they observed, you would probably come up with something that was nothing like the bible at all. Hell, 80% of it would probably concern the evils of homosexuality, which is barely mentioned throughout the whole bible. But there probably wouldn't be a whole lot on the subject of love, which was Jesus' main message.
true
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:19 ET by lotrThese are valid points, no doubt, sad though they may be.
But I disagree that they prove anything about the truthfulness of Christianity. The Bible itself testifies to the fact you point to, and Jesus said as much when he spoke about the narrow gate. If anything, a world full of perfect Christians would prove the Bible, and Christianity, wrong, suggesting the absence of free will. Even most of the saints (such as those listed) were not perfect. Christianity is not magic theory. However, it is spot on in its description of the world and those in it. Therefore, I conclude that it is true, regardless of how well I am currently living it. It's not about us; it's much bigger than us.
"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
While a world full of
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:25 ET by arkansaszippersWhile a world full of perfect Christians might prove the bible wrong, I don't know that a world full of imperfect ones proves the bible right. That's the problem with religious discussions - you either believe or you don't. Nobody can be proven right or wrong, because there's no real proof for or against either argument.
All very true. We can go
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 17:21 ET by lotrAll very true. We can go by reasoning to certain point; but after that, it becomes a matter of faith, no matter what you believe in, including atheism and agnosticism (yes, even the latter is included, for it is a "belief in non-belief" if you will, unless the agnostic in question is actively moving toward either atheism or theism). It is my contention (and many others far more intellectually gifted than myself) that Christianity has the most reasonable world view; therefore, I believe it.
"Steady." -- Keith Olbermann to Chris Matthews
the subject of love, which was Jesus' main message
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:22 ET by vrwc13...no, His main message was believe on Him and have eternal life
...don't be deceived, many who call themselves Christians or not, Jesus Himself said so
...homosexuality, as is any other sin, are merely a symptom. Got to get to the root of it all...see #1
v
you are right, vrwc
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:00 ET by candanceA thorough reading of the Bible finds that God is obsessed with truth far more than anything else. That's precisely why the whole concept of "I'm right and you're wrong" seems to be so popular. Without believing the truth of Christ you cannot embrace the love of Christ.
Liberals want so badly for the Bible to be a warm and fuzzy episode of Sesame Street where "love thy neighbor" means "never be rude to thy neighbor" or perhaps "give thy neighbor free welfare."
It's like the airline pilot who dings into the speaker saying "good news is we're arriving early but the bad news is we're at the wrong airport." Emotion that feels strongly about a lie does no one any good.
If you combined all commentary from ministers in the media and all actions of self-proclaimed Christians, 80% of it would definitely not be about gays. Most of it would be "Jesus wants you to have a new car" followed by some feel good notion of "believe it and achieve it" with a little "abortion is kinda sad" thrown in there.
And of course, some of this
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:12 ET by arkansaszippersAnd of course, some of this thrown in...
look at zippy go
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:26 ET by candanceHe found video of one random preacher I've never heard of on YouTube. That just changes everything.
Unlike Christ
Wed, 09/23/2009 - 09:05 ET by misterbee241So was Gandhi. Next question.
"I dont need to read a newspaper to know the world's been shaved by a drunken barber."
Walter Brennan, The Colonel, Meet John Doe, 1941
Are ALL Liberals
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:37 ET by BondPlainBondChristian-ISTS?
"reclaiming Jesus for the Left"
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:39 ET by nolotrippenThe Left has no claim on Jesus anymore than the Right does. It's just that the Right actually reads things like The Bible (and I don't mean a verse here and there, but the whole wonderful, God inspired book) while the Left does not. The only claim we can make on the Lord is to believe in him and and follow him and be Bapitised into him, none of which has to do with politics.
And note, while Schaeffer claims to be a beliver, he writes “Right-Wing Hatemongering Fueled by Christianity?” No Frank, Christianity has changed the world and all for the better. You might actually try it. Wouldn't hurt Obama, either. In fact, it would save both of your souls, so I pray that you do embrace the fundamentals.
I dunno, if the libtards
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:40 ET by RowaneI dunno, if the libtards keep this garbage up they might actually push some Christians to violence. After all, you can only push someone so far before they snap.
******************************************************************************
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
all these home-schooling, federal government-hating end-timers
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:46 ET by vrwc13...dang, yet another joining the VRWC bandwagon... Hillary, see what you started?
This guy better start reading his Bible instead of just 'thumping' about it!
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil… - Isaiah 5:20
He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous
are both alike an abomination to the LORD. – Proverbs 17:15
v
p.s. Frank: any idea what it might be like to be on the wrong side of God's 'WOE'?
Correct me if I am wrong
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:56 ET by general companyBut isnt Obama supposed to be a Christian? Most folks are upset and dissapointed because of crap like this,,,
U.S. charges Obama fund-raiser in $290 million fraud
Just never seems to end with this guy, just imagine what we would find out with a fully functioning press
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
But isnt Obama supposed to be a Christian?
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:19 ET by vrwc13..many claim to be, few really are. Jesus (the basis of Christianity) said so Himself in the parable of the sown seeds.
v
→ That conversation
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:26 ET by Cool ArrowObama pleading his case'
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
Another projection of what
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:53 ET by taterAnother projection of what really goes on.
Liberals are the real haters.
www.theholyrosary.org
"The Rosary is my weapon."
-St. Padre Pio
The vast majority of the
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 10:57 ET by EdhenryThe vast majority of the country approved of O (so racism/prejudice not an issue) until....
The stimulus, appointments, spending, associations, increase taxes, job losses, specifics of healthcare, acorn came out so that people with a different philosophy of government could evaluate his goals and methodology and disagree on the facts.
if "racism" is their defense/offense, they lose.
Stereotypes
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:02 ET by JustAl. . . the left just can not live without them.
There are many, many reasons to oppose the current regime.
Some conservatives are religious, some aren't, some religious people are liberals, some aren't. Some religions are based in bronze age mythology, others in modern meteorological mythology, but no religion is needed to recognize the fact that socialism has always been doomed to failure because it is a direct contradiction of human nature. And only a blind man can fail to see that His "O"lliness is a NeoSoc.
I'm a Christian who hates...
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:08 ET by mattmI hate falsehood, injustice, murder, perversion, theft, assault, tyranny, oppression, lasciviousness, excess, ignorance, and anything else that goes against God and his plan for humanity - including the left-wing, which embodies many of the things I hate.
Note to libtards: Hate, by itself is neither good, nor bad. The object of the hate is what determines whether its justified or not. Therefore, all the hate-monger-mongering by the left is misguided - like everything else they do.
God invented 'hate'
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:52 ET by vrwc13Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire (today we just abort them) as sacrifices to their gods.
v
...and what is it that God hates?
16There are six things that the LORD hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers. - Proverbs 6
Do tell
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:09 ET by cvgbuckeyearkansaszipper
Tell me a little more about your views on Christianity. You've peaked my interest. Also how you came to these conclusions since I am quite sure most have the Pharisees have died.
I'm just guessing that your statement may harken back to when Pontius Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth" when Jesus said, "I tell you the truth"; just before Pilate handed him over to be crucified.
Of course, some put more weight to the "Truth" of president obama than to Jesus Christ. Would that be you?
I think that when I see
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:22 ET by arkansaszippersI think that when I see people screaming and telling everybody what God wants - that maybe they don't know what God wants anymore than I do. I hope that God doesn't want them to go out and talk down to people who don't believe the same as them. When Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson came on TV after 9/11 and said that we deserved that - I hope that isn't what God wanted.
so zippy
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:26 ET by candanceHere is a perfect chance for you to go on the record that we have no "moral obligation" to provide free healthcare because the government has no business promoting arbitrary moral beliefs, and it's wrong for the left to act morally superior because of a political belief.
It's always wrong to act
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:33 ET by arkansaszippersIt's always wrong to act superior in my opinion. I think we should try and provide health care - most of the rest of the civilized world does. I don't like the tone that the discussion has taken on either side, though. Just because I would like to see health care provided to all Americans doesn't mean I agree with the methods that people are using to get it passed, or stopped.
provide health care - most of the rest of the civilized world do
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:43 ET by vrwc13provide health care - most of the rest of the civilized world does
...and is it working for them? No.
v
..an error was made in 2008
~Saints in heaven, grant me patience
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:47 ET by choselife3xHealth care IS PROVIDED TO ALL AMERICANS! And plenty of people who aren't Americans, for that matter.
If you want to see a place where health care is NOT provided to all citizens, check out a country with socialized medicine.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the lying leftist under my heel.
http://newsbusters.org/forums/internal-affairs/black47211-has-commented-...
Ok, fine - you're right.
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:54 ET by arkansaszippersOk, fine - you're right. You win - everybody on the left is wrong, and everybody on the right is right. People on the left lie, and people on the right tell the truth. You must feel so good about yourself - you picked the winning team; the good guys. You're probably wondering why there are so many people who want to side with the bad guys - well they're probably not as smart as you, or they're just inherently evil.
Keep fighting the good fight!
everybody on the left is
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:03 ET by vrwc13everybody on the left is wrong, and everybody on the right is right. People on the left lie, and people on the right tell the truth.
You're probably wondering why there are so many people who want to side with the bad guys - well they're probably not as smart as you, or they're just inherently evil
Unfortunately Zip...that's probably the closest you have posted to the truth today...
v
And you know what's
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:09 ET by arkansaszippersAnd you know what's depressing? You probably actually believe that, this fairy tale idea of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong.
this fairy tale idea of good vs. evil
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:17 ET by vrwc13You probably actually believe that, this fairy tale idea of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong.
...God said it was so, and that's good enough for me.
v
Well, whatever makes you
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:26 ET by arkansaszippersWell, whatever makes you happy.
so you want the government
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:52 ET by candanceto step ever more into a private industry, affecting the salaries and career paths of millions of people, because you think it's a morally sound decision. That's it. There's no other explanation (no security risk, no bridges getting built, no criminals arrested) other than feeling it's the right thing to do.
Not me. I don't feel that it's morally justified to impose fees and taxes, regulate insurance plans, and bind the hands of doctors who disagree with government guidelines, all for the sake of assuaging moral guilt over strangers who can't afford their Ritalin. I believe that most good people care about society and give to charity when they can, which we should encourage, but I don't believe you ease the chains of poverty on one person by slapping chains on others.
As far as your argument about the rest of the world, we didn't invent the internet, residential electricity, polio vaccine, or CPR because of our dependence on European enlightenment.
Yes, because contributing to
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:57 ET by arkansaszippersYes, because contributing to nationwide health care will immediatly plunge half of the country, including yourself, into poverty. I don't even want to hear you talk about poverty, because I honestly doubt it's something you know much about. But all those poor people are just lazy right? This is America, where the only excuse for poverty is laziness. Just forget it, you win. I can't keep coming to this site - it's too depressing.
excuse me, zippy?
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:16 ET by candanceI present you with an argument against governmnet intervention, and you respond with personal attacks about me growing up with a silver spoon?
You don't know crap about my childhood. Let's go toe-to-toe on who lived in more poverty. I used an outhouse (no inside toilet) until I was 15. My parents lived on food stamps. Most of my meals were pinto beans and kool aid, assuming I got dinner that day at all. My dad hated Ronald Reagan and screamed as us routinely about the evils of capitalism.
I'll give you my cell phone number right now. You can ask anyone in my family. Come to my house and I'll show you the only photo I have of my childhood, a faded Polaroid of me sitting on my parents' bed in a filthy second-hand dress.
Come on, zippy. I dare you. Get to know a conservative who didn't grow up like Alex Keaton.
I never said poor people were lazy, and I distinctly remember telling you more of us should give to charity. I happen to think a lot of poor people do need help, but the Red Cross does a more efficient job than the government, with the added benefit that Red Cross workers don't have to pander to voters do to the right thing.
Wanting to "help" the poor by trapping them in slums surviving on foodstamps is NOT compassion. Medicare is bankrupt and doctors are avoiding its members because the payments are too low - and your solution is to trap more poor people in that system. Medicare is completely insolvent, but hey, if we pay doctors even less and pour more money into it, we'll be fine. That makes no sense.
Modern liberals are like the slave apoligists in the 1850s. Minorities just can't make it in the real with the big boys and girls. They'll fail if we start sending them to private schools and encouraging them to get jobs that pay well. We're doing them a favor by forcing them to depend on us for food and shelter. And we're compassionat to undocumented immigrants by letting them work for less than legal wages and making sure they're too scared to charge a boss for harrassment. It's good for them.
Get off the high horse and start taking this stuff seriously.
Ok, I'm sorry for asuming
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:23 ET by arkansaszippersOk, I'm sorry for asuming anything about you - that's wrong of me. I'm just a little high-strung today. I take things seriously, but I guess I'm just tired of this whole debate. Not having health care for your children is scary - they told us with our first daughter that we made too much money to get any government assistance with health care, but we couldn't afford to pay for health care on what we were making. It was very frustrating and extremely scary, and it made us both feel like very bad parents, even though we were trying as hard as we could.
Zip...sorry to hear that.
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:35 ET by vrwc13Zip...sorry to hear that. As a parent of six, that would be scary to me too. There are other ways of solving your situation though. If a member of our church faced your situation, we would help out through our benevolence fund. In the long run, there are affordable Christain healthcare organizations that help cover each other.
Google this: christian healthcare ministries and you will find a number of them
v
we want the same goal
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:56 ET by candanceBoth of us want healthcare to be accessible, affordable, and effective. I really do feel bad for families who can't get proper medical treatment.
It's the government's fault that keeps happening. If we opened state lines and let people buy their policies a la carte, it would be cheaper. Your choice right now is to buy a super-duper policy that covers everything from Viagra to Valium...or buy no plan at all. That's like a restaurant saying you can only eat there if you buy wine and steak, or car dealer saying your choice is a Lexus or a bike.
The government set that system up and forbids insurance companies from selling minimal packages.
Ah, but what about those evil doctors who charge too much? Well surprise, surprise, doctors who try to circumvent the system to charge cheaper prices are banned by the government. Why would the government ban that? Because it's unfair competition for their friends in Big Insurance.
So let's see, the governmnet forces doctors charge outrageous prices, forces insurance companies to sell you extravagant packages, and then says it's time for them to step in because the system is too expensive.
And you really trust these people to care for your children?
I guess they can't do a much
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:27 ET by arkansaszippersI guess they can't do a much worse job than the insurance companies are doing now. I don't like the idea of a company taking my money for years while I'm healthy, and finding some reason to deny my claim as soon as I need to actually use it. Or finding out I have some horrible disease, and being denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions." Aren't people with conditions the ones who need health care the most? I don't know, it just seems un-American and wrong.
you're not following, zippy
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:08 ET by candanceInsurance companies give bad service because the government makes them. There is demand for fair insurance policies that cover pre-existing conditions. Enterepreneurs could make a fortune selling good, fair insurance plans - and they know that. But the government won't let them.
If Obama went on public TV and said, "you can sell whatever insurance plan you want as long as there are no pre-existing conditions" then business owners would find a way to do it.
But Obama doesn't want that. He wants you to get trapped in a system with outrageous prices for bad service...so you throw up your hands and say it can't get much worse.
Other life saving commodities (such as food, water, electricity and aspirin) are cheap and abundant precisely because there is little government meddling.
We're on the same side. We want cheap, fair, effective medical treatment for everyone. The difference is that you're siding with the bad guys whether you realize it or not.
I guess they can't do a much
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:28 ET by arkansaszippersI guess they can't do a much worse job than the insurance companies are doing now. I don't like the idea of a company taking my money for years while I'm healthy, and finding some reason to deny my claim as soon as I need to actually use it. Or finding out I have some horrible disease, and being denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions." Aren't people with conditions the ones who need health care the most? I don't know, it just seems un-American and wrong.
Who, praytell, are these
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:32 ET by Indiana JoeWho, praytell, are these "people screaming and telling everybody what God wants?"
I mean, I'm sure there are some whackos claiming, like Maude, "God will get you for that." But where is the organized violent Christian protests you and Schaeffer seem to be alluding to?
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
There's a few at this
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:34 ET by arkansaszippersThere's a few at this rally...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y&feature=player_embedded
"A few..."
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:48 ET by Indiana JoeYes, and there are "a few" Buddhists who set themselves on fire. There are "a few" Jews who are racist. There are "a few" of anybody who are anything.
You're trying to lay the blame for any and all "hatred," defined as political opposition to Barack Obama's policies, at the doorstep of Christianity in general. You said the author of the cited article "may have a point." You are defending his belief that this "hate" movement is driven by "evangelical, fundamentalist" Christians.
Big difference between that and "a few."
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
"I'd like to see a
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:14 ET by arkansaszippers"I'd like to see a Christian in the White House, yes!"
I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that this statement applies to more than just a "few" people at that rally. I don't think that a certain religious affiliation is a requirement for the office of President of the United States, but part of the country feels differently. So what are they really so angry about? Health care, or the fact that their country is being run by a godless muslim?
maybe they don't know what God wants anymore than I do
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:41 ET by vrwc13maybe they don't know what God wants anymore than I do
...that's an easy one, God wrote a whole book about what He wants. Try reading it.
v
I take it you're referring
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:43 ET by arkansaszippersI take it you're referring to the Koran? Or maybe the Torah? You must be more specific...
Of course they are....
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:28 ET by Indiana JoeI swear, I don't know what these people are sniffing, but I suspect it's what my son and I use to assemble plastic models.
Yeah, Jesus preached hatred and world domination. That's why there are so many Christian suicide-bombers.
Hey Schaeffer, here's a quarter. Buy a clue.
Yeeesh!!!
"Four legs good... two legs better!" - George Orwell
Non sequiturs abound
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:29 ET by G. MayNon sequiturs abound lately. I could see the one coming about race, but I have to admit that this one about religion took me by absolute surprise.
A basic analysis gets to the heart of the matter quickly - mainly conservatives are opposed to Obama, most conservatives are Christian, ergo Christianity is to blame. Utterly dishonest in it's attempted use of logic, but that's the gist of it.
Let them continue this nonsense. It won't be as effective at blowing their foot off as crying "racist", but it might get a toe or two.
→ May
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:38 ET by Cool ArrowMaybe it's connected to the Afghanistan situation.
This President needs very badly, an excuse to tuck tail and run.
Maybe the Subprime Media is ratcheting up the demonization of Christians toward the end that it's all our fault anyway.
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:15 ET by kengie"A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy! " ~ WOW, someone missed the whole point!! It wasn't a democrate that killed Mr Milk, it was the runaway violence, like at these town meetings, Ms Nancy was referring to.
"...runaway violence, like
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:54 ET by pahuber"...runaway violence, like at these town meetings, Ms Nancy was referring to."
You mean by the paid union thugs?
You cannot be that willfully ignorant.
I see you too havent met yet
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:11 ET by general companyYou cannot be that willfully ignorant.
All day, every day!!
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
LOL GC, I see our trolls are setting the bar extremely low!
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:37 ET by pahuberAre they really trying to influence opinion or show how correct we really are?
thanks for clearing that up
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:04 ET by candanceThe runaway violence enacted by a random madman has nothing to do with politics or party affiliation. Except for those on the political right.
→ Runaway violence
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:23 ET by Cool ArrowMilk died as a result of backbiting and backstabbing among three Democrats.
I'm guessing Kenny G is getting his info from a movie. (they're never politically slanted, are they)
Break it down: Mayor Moscone told Ex-Supervisor Dan White he could get him his job back (White had resigned but thought better of it). Milk blocked the reappointment.
White killed Milk and Moscone.
This wasn't runaway violence, it was revenge killing.
Nancy Pelosi, then, is threatening to kill conservatives if this is the episode to which she refers.
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
→ Kenny G
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:10 ET by Cool ArrowIt was a disagreement and a whole lot of backstabbing and lying on the part of three Democrats.
Nancy Pelosi just told conservatives to shut up, or a Democrat will kill us.
Your side of the aisle is really silly. But very violent.
Do y'all really eat fingers? I heard you do.
A Democrat killed Harvey Milk, Nancy!
This Guy....................
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 11:43 ET by GeneralAlThis guy is as much an Evangelical as I am a Muslim! I bet he hasn't attended church in years! Throughout the Evangelical and Fundamental community of congregations, we are encouraged to show love and compassion to our detractors. We don't go around preaching hate and we stay away from political speech in our messages. If this guy is hearing or seeing this garbage, they're isolated instances [Such as the Reverend Phelps!]. If we were the way he accuses us of being, there would be a lot of dead Muslims and Gays in the street!
corruption is the issue
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 12:40 ET by cajun2Corruption and moral decay is the issue. Look at the headlines from NB. A story about a weasel that has become a media darling. Acorn assisting in underage sex slaves. Taxpayers paying for abortion. Dissing Christians as militants, racist, and intolerant of other religions. Did anyone of hear of ...turn the other cheek...it means that Christians are passivist not radicals. But the real effort behind all this rhetoric is to destroy American traditions, values, and thru the discrediting of religion, morality. Without morality, the corrupt feel justified to do whatever they want. Remember the chant..."if it feels good, do it". Then and only then can the truly corrupt take over this country and transform our society as they have promised. They already control the media, Hollywood, and it looks like, Congress as well. I would not be surprised if we hear that NAMBLA will pay Garrido's legal fees. Pay close attention to these attacks in various TV programs, magazines, movies. Then notice efforts to discredit law enforcement, religion, and next will be our military. The Nanny syndrome is a hidden agenda to make Americans totally dependant on the gov. To start they must denigrate free will, self reliance, independance, they must lower expectations, education, and morality. Destroy the foundations of this country and they win with a whimper not a bang.
Christian's are the real heaters.....
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:21 ET by kengieVery well written!!! Finally someone speaks the truth. There is too much Rev.Jim Jones juice to be had.
Christian's are the real heaters.....
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:27 ET by kengieVery well written!!! Finally someone speaks the truth. There is too much Rev.Jim Jones juice to be had.
Christian's are the real heaters.....
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 13:28 ET by kengieVery well written!!! Finally someone speaks the truth. There is too much Rev.Jim Jones juice to be had.
Something so profound it had
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:57 ET by NL207Something so profound it had to be repeated three times.
an inconvenient truth
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 15:21 ET by candanceJones was a communist who infiltrated religion as a means of appearing more credible and, prominent California Democrats supported him. A few cult members escaped and leaked to the press that Jones was dangerous, but his political friends kept stalling any serious investigations.
He was ousted from all mainstream church organizations and eventually built his own "church" where he could blather without any pesky Senior Pastors keeping any eye on him. He was the original mastermind behind "social gospel," which claims that Jesus would have embraced communism as a means of feeding the poor, and that "Christian charity" is best handled by government welfare. Who makes that claim today? Why, I believe Barack Obama does.
So let's see. A flaming liberal invents his own church for the express purpose of destroying Christianity, Democrats help him cover it up, a thousand people die, and 40 years later liberals have amnesia about the whole thing.
Good call there, kengie.
We really should start charging him for this, ya know
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:53 ET by SickofLibsWe really should start charging him for this, ya know
Hate for Che
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 14:18 ET by Carl KolchakDon't forget that when Che preaches hate and killing that that is a good thing. I wouldn't be surprised if the NEA with their orders start doing lots of Che art, and then the left wing college professors who wear Che shirts can get out their bullhorns and tell all their students to hate everything. The college professors can shout to the students to hate their country, hate their parents, hate anyone who doesn't wear Che shirts. Then the Che shirt wearers who are so filled with hate will then become a frenzied left wing mob and form left wing secret police organizations like the left wing Stasi, or left wing Securitate, or the left wing StB or the left wing NKVD and the angry Che shirt wearers who model Che's hate will take care of anyone who doesn't hate like Che does.
From the link below about Che.
"Guevara might have been enamored of his own death, but he was much more enamored of other people’s deaths. In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his “Message to the Tricontinental”: “hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine.” His earlier writings are also peppered with this rhetorical and ideological violence. Although his former girlfriend Chichina Ferreyra doubts that the original version of the diaries of his motorcycle trip contains the observation that “I feel my nostrils dilate savoring the acrid smell of gunpowder and blood of the enemy,” Guevara did share with Granado at that very young age this exclamation: “Revolution without firing a shot? You’re crazy.” At other times the young bohemian seemed unable to distinguish between the levity of death as a spectacle and the tragedy of a revolution’s victims. In a letter to his mother in 1954, written in Guatemala, where he witnessed the overthrow of the revolutionary government of Jacobo Arbenz, he wrote: “It was all a lot of fun, what with the bombs, speeches, and other distractions to break the monotony I was living in.”"
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535
Now what's Che doing talking about hate and killing machines? I thought people who wear Che shirts build themselves up as speaking out against hate.
I let Jesus into my heart
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 16:24 ET by RR GOPI let Jesus into my heart 35 years ago. He tells me to tell the folks at Alternet to F off.
One of the 34% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 86% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
I must be blind
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 17:33 ET by BlueCat57While I have only my own limited experience to go by I must be blind and deaf because in 50 years of attending fundamentalist Christian churches I have never seen, heard or experienced any of the things ex-fundamentalists and liberals accuse Fundamentalist Christians of. I have never heard any of my co-workers or friends complain of such experiences. Currently I am personally aware of several people that call their fundamentalist Christian childhoods "abusive" but don't know them well enough to know their personal experience. So out of several thousand fundamentalist Christians that I know personally there are maybe 3 that have had a bad experience and none that I know of that actually have committed any of the atrocities that atheists and liberals accuse them of.
In fact, I don't recall every reading any factural news stories about any true fundamentalist Christians anywhere in the world commiting any of the acts they are accused of. Fundamentalist Chrsitians living their beliefs are peaceful, loving people for whom violence of any sort is an extreme last resort.
So can someone show me where I can find some of these "evil" fundamentalist Christians?
Or maybe I'm just defining the terms wrong. That must be it.
And make sure you read about Frankie Schaeffer's background. Yeah, that's right, those "evil" fundamentalist Christians used to call him Frankie. His dad is Francis Schaeffer one of the greatest Christian apologists and philosophers. Check out Os Guiness's comments on Frankie. Os was a friend of the family and provides insight into Frank's "abused" childhood.
Why Not Let Jesus Be A Free Thinker And Not A Partisan Hack?
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 23:56 ET by The7SticksLook, you want to know the truth? Mike Huckabee, with whom I disagree with emphatically, did make a fascinating observation about the question What would Jesus do? Huckabee declared "I think Jesus would be smart enough not to run for president." In other words, whether it is the left or the right, it would behoove each side to refrain from using the symbolism of any religion to score a cheap political point. Whether they are using Jesus's name, a verse from the Bible, or for argument's sake, Mohamed, the Koran, a Kabbahla bracelet, even a copy of Charles Darwin's Origin Of Species for the sake of Atheism and not scientific argument, it shouldn't be done. This Schaeffer character thinks he is repenting for helping bring the so-called "religious right" to prominence, but he just screws it all up by making it a partisan attack in the name of the left. I'd rather not think about it period because I'm not interested in watching politics degenerate into a pissing contest on which side is more religious or pious. I would rather here about the issues and leave the piety to the individual to decide.
Back to your bridge!
Tue, 09/22/2009 - 23:58 ET by Free StinkerI would rather here about the issues
That is laughable coming from you.
Back to your bridge!
Sorry
Wed, 09/23/2009 - 07:58 ET by BlueCat57Can't let you use the term "free thinker" to describe Jesus since the people that call themselves "free thinkers" are in fact not free thinkers but atheists. Haven't met one yet that will allow me to think freely and decide that there is a god.
Yet another liberal ploy to use terms that sound nice but mean something completely different.
We can't allow Jesus to be anything. Jesus is what he is.
Silly me, who knew arkansaszipper commented only to deride
Wed, 09/23/2009 - 08:57 ET by pahuberChristians instead of making a serious thoughtful reply to this article.
Earlier in this thread I gave him an opportunity to comment on this issue intelligently and was promptly ignored.
To those who wonder why I seldom take the time to give such opportunities and jump right to calling the trolls out please see my above post that was conveniently ignored by another troll.
There is no doubt (at least with the sane) that arkansaszipper's comments were only to inflame and not discuss... duh.
Ok, shoot - what do you
Tue, 09/29/2009 - 16:57 ET by arkansaszippersOk, shoot - what do you want to discuss? I'm here for discussion, so go ahead.
Did you want to discuss, or just quietly call me out on the bottom of the thread and attack my motives? I think, all things being considered, that I've been thoughtful and understanding in the face of anger. But I guess you see it differently. So what was it that you wanted to know?
Has anyone tried asking?
Wed, 09/23/2009 - 09:41 ET by BlueCat57I constantly read people saying they can't "afford" health care.
Have you ever tried asking?
Growing up we weren't poor but 50 years ago health insurance didn't cover everything and the kitchen sink like it does today.
I had allergies and needed treatment. The doctor provided treatment and my parents paid what they could.
Braces? Not covered by insurance. Pay a little bit every month. Paying cash. Get a discount.
I can't imagine any doctor refusing to treat someone who needs it.
Currently a family member needs some expensive medicines, doesn't have an income and no comprehensive health insurance. Solution. Their doctors contact Big Pharma and enroll them in their programs to help those who can't afford to pay. The doctor's payment? Whatever they can afford.
The whole "health care" debate is a bunch of BS. There isn't a problem in the US. The only problem is that everyone expects to get treated by House and his staff for free. Just like on TV.
Remember that Iraqi kid that got what a quadruple transplant? Pretty sure they didn't pay the million dollars it probably cost to do it. Didn't hear anyone complaining that those doctors could have treated a thousand patients with the same resources spent on that one.
The health care debate isn't about medical treatment or access to it. It is about control. It is about growing government bigger.
Next time you need medical care and don't have two dimes to rub together in your pocket go to the doctor's office explain your situation, promise to pay what you can and ask for help. I'm guessing if they can't help you they can point you in the right direction. And don't forget to ask your family that's what you have one for. Oh, I forgot, the liberal's war on poverty has destroyed the family in America and continues to assault it. One of Marx's goals was to separate children from their parents.
OK, enough rambling. What were we talking about. Yeah, and don't forget to go to your liberal church and ask for help. No help coming from them because they're too busy with politics? Try a Fundamentalist Christian church. I bet they're willing to help. That's what their religion teaches.