Hollywood doesn't learn. Even though the latest round of America-hating movies flopped, Project Greenlight producer Chris Moore will turn "A People's History of the United States" by pop historian and Karl Marx fanboy Howard Zinn into a TV miniseries and a feature-length documentary.
Zinn's 1980 book influenced a generation of students with its negatively-framed distortions of American history which minimized successes like WWII. It exchanged traditional history for marginal topics such as Great Railroad Strike of 1877, Joan Baez and Angela Davis while omitting Washington's Farewell Address, the Wright Brothers and the Normandy Invasion.
The December 10 Variety stated production begins in Boston this January. Ironically, it will use wealthy celebrities like Matt Damon, Danny Glover and Josh Brolin to convey the book's Marxist theory (bold mine):
Miniseries will center on the actors and musicians as they read from the books or perform music related to their themes: the struggles of women, war, class and race. (...)
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"This project is about Howard Zinn, his books and using that body of work to remind and inspire us all that this is a country built on dissidence," Moore said. "Howard's work deserves to be on film, and it is time that we paid tribute and captured the struggles of the people."
Zinn, whose books chronicle the struggles of Native Americans, women, workers and other Americans, said..."Our hope is that these words from the past will speak passionately and clearly to the needs of the present."
How about just getting the facts right? Writer Dan Flynn wrote that Zinn called George Washington the “richest man in America” and claimed “unemployment grew in the Reagan years.” Robert Morris is generally seen as that era's wealthiest man and Bureau of Labor statistics show the unemployment rate fell from 7.6 to 5.5 for Reagan, who created nearly 20 million jobs.
Communism was more favorably portrayed. Castro's Cuba “had no bloody record of suppression” and Maoist China was “the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a people’s government, independent of outside control.”
Flynn also tackled Zinn's startling omissions (original paragraph reformatted):
Washington’s Farewell Address, Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address, and Reagan’s speech at the Brandenburg Gate all fail to merit a mention. Nowhere do we learn that Americans were first in flight, first to fly across the Atlantic, and first to walk on the moon. Alexander Graham Bell, Jonas Salk, and the Wright Brothers are entirely absent.
...American success stories like those of Alexander Hamilton, John Jacob Astor, and Louis B. Mayer—to name but a few—are excluded.
Valley Forge rates a single fleeting reference, while D-Day’s Normandy invasion, Gettysburg, and other important military battles are left out. In their place, we get several pages on the My Lai massacre and colorful descriptions of U.S. bombs falling on hotels, air-raid shelters, and markets during the Gulf War of the early 1990s.
American history shouldn't be whitewashed, but Zinn went to the other extreme and favored embarrassing parts. Sounds perfect for Hollywood.
Lynn contributes to NewsBusters. Contact her with tips or even complaints at tvisgoodforyou2 AT yahoo DOT com.



















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Is this the same book that
December 13, 2007 - 02:18 ET by DontTreadOnMeIs this the same book that shows more respect and admiration for the criminals of the attica prison riots than it does the founding fathers of our nation? Cant hardly wait for this to come out! Screw you America, we are the only business that practices the time honored logic of giving you what you dont want.
Matt
December 13, 2007 - 02:20 ET by wiwfMatt DAAAAMOOONN
Revisionist history ftl
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Ah, you beat me to it. The
December 13, 2007 - 03:32 ET by fitzfongAh, you beat me to it. The Film Actor's Guild is well represented in this POS.
"A Peoples History Of
December 13, 2007 - 03:04 ET by Blazer"A Peoples History Of The United States"
It simply makes my skin crawl and my innard's bark, when certain liberal's use the term " peoples". It remind's me of places like "The Peoples" Republic of China or The Democratic "Peoples"Republic of Korea, two places which use propoganda to keep their people in line, and far removed from the concern's of the people and anything democratic.
When liberal's are exhibiting their control in both houses of government to hammer us out a revisionist culture, and using their iron grip on the media and Hollywood to spew out revisionist history, holding in high reguard and rubbing elbow's with dictator's, despot's and murderous thug's, how long will it be before we start to see a revisionist Constitution.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "
- Ben Kenobi on Liberals, and the MSM.
People
December 13, 2007 - 06:36 ET by UnsaneYou took the words right out of my mouth.
Whenever I see the "people's" ANYTHING, that is my cue to run. (Like looking at a sign that says WARNING: LEFTISTS AHEAD 500 FT.) Besides, isn't a tiny bit arrogant to presume what it the "people's", when you most certainly did not consult with ALL the "people's"?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Danny Glover's love of Leftist totalitarianism...
December 13, 2007 - 03:07 ET by Parker1227...is a huge disappointment. While not starring as a promoter of the AARP (be afraid), he spends his time talking up his good ol' boys Castro and Chavez.
Ask the average Cuban if they think that an equal share of nothing is better than the opportunity to be a part of something great - like a free market economy.
Danny Glover
December 13, 2007 - 10:07 ET by BeanManSeveral years ag MCI called me and asked why I had cancelled my long distance service with them. I told him plain and simple "You have Danny Glover as your national spokesman." The operator couldn't believe what I was saying. I told him that Danny Glover loved communist dictators more than his own country and I didn't need someone like him telling me what to do. He thought that was a silly reason to drop their service so I told him further that a company spokesman telling me I was silly was another reason for me not to use MCI services.
I must have not been the only one because a few months later MCI terminated their contract with Danny Glover a year early citing a business decision not to continue. A business decision...right!
Since government is coercion, politics is largely the exercise of deception regarding the intended use of coercion - George Orwell
The good news for
December 13, 2007 - 06:25 ET by Jack BauerThe good news for conservatives is that the movie ends with Zinn's hideous death at the hands of the SS Bush Gestapo.
He is hung by piano wire after being tortured for his beliefs and spending his last pitiful years in the Berkeley Gulag... It's a real feel good movie.
Oh I'm sorry, that's the TEAM AMERICA: THE LIBERAL DUMMIES HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES version.
I once tried to read Zinn's
December 13, 2007 - 08:13 ET by Trix RabbitI once tried to read Zinn's ignorant, dreadful, asinine, unobjective, and totalitarian view of the United States. After two chapters, it was all I could do to fight the nausea.
Then I did something I had never done before to any book. I used it to line to bottom of my cats' litter box.
The televised version of Zinn's hate-filled screed should best be ignored.
Liberal: a power worshipper without power. George Orwell
I vividly remember
December 13, 2007 - 08:32 ET by winston smithI vividly remember this bilious trash being touted as the definitive historical text when I was in college- ---- and of course, required reading (brain-washing) and indoctrination. And I was even a voting Democrat back then! I believe that it was this very book and then later on the Bork hearings that transformed me into a Republican. Thank you Howard Zinn! Thank you Ted Kennedy, Metzenbaum, etc.
Education
December 13, 2007 - 10:27 ET by iveseenitallSocialist/Communist propaganda like this remains standard fare in most "educational" institutions in this country. High schools as well as universities continue to brainwash our youth with propaganda and revisionist history. Textbooks are replete with subtle twists and outright lies. "Teachers" throw lies at our kids as though they were gospel. Worst of all, the "educators" are unaccountable for what they do. But the more you witness it, the more you wonder how the hypocrites can live with themselves. They are soulless and are doing their best to make our kids soulless too. Unfortunately, they are succeeding to a great degree because it's so easy to be an immature "liberal" who crawls around the campus without a soul or a conscience. When are the decent majority going to wake up and stop the ravaging of our children in the schoolrooms of America? It's nothing short of anti-American hatred and child abuse.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
The proper forum
December 13, 2007 - 10:34 ET by KC MulvilleRemember OJ Simpson's story about what happened on the night his ex-wife was murdered? Yeah, I don't recall much of it either, because when I first heard it, it was immediately contradicted by the DNA evidence and overwhelming testimony to the contrary. OJ's team told a story that masked the weaknesses of its case, and exploited anything and everything to manipulate the audience. I heard both stories during the trial, and since the defense story was literally incredible, and the prosecution's story made sense (though it was told ineptly), I dismissed the defense story.
History is not mere entertainment. History is academic. We want the public, and especially the professionals in that field, to make a judgment about what the author asserts. When Zinn first published his work, it was reviewed and argued about, and that was the proper forum. It doesn't matter whether you agree with Zinn or not, the marketplace of ideas was the appropriate forum. That's also why documentaries and TV series are inappropriate for real history. Film and TV scripts are not interactive, and they don't allow adversarial opinions. You can't debate a film that's already in a can.
When someone offers a documentary on a controversial topic (e.g., Michael Moore), viewers should ask: "Why doesn't this guy want me to hear the other side, from the other side? Why is he trying to control what I hear?"
And we should expect more from Howard Zinn?
December 13, 2007 - 10:41 ET by ThalpyAnd we should expect more from Howard Zinn? He has long and undistinguished track record of revisionism.
What's wrong with revisionism?
December 13, 2007 - 15:09 ET by Agent W.H.Y.Nothing, unless the thing being revised then conflicts with one's eroneous view. Revising something to correct the record is considered a good thing by most reasonable folks.
Initial reports of 5000+ killed on 9/11 changed to 2974 because that was the fact.
Initial reports of Iraq possessing WMDs rectified by the Bush administration to say that he possessed no WMDs, changed because it was a fact.
Making up a story that 400,000 troops would be saved by using a-bombs on Japan when the truth was 40,000? Well, when you look up the actual documents, you change what you report to reflect the truth.
Nothing wrong with revisionism. It's what we reasonable people prefer. We prefer that when the truth is discovered, that it be disseminated. Now, if you want to be one to keep your head in the sand and ignore the truth, that's your prerogative. Just don't knock the pursuit of truth by others.
Can I get your definition
December 13, 2007 - 15:21 ET by BuffNBoneCan I get your definition of what constitutes WMD?
Also your source or logic for 40 K vs 400K troops saved?
"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
Olympic
December 13, 2007 - 15:38 ET by UnsaneMaking up a story that 400,000 troops would be saved by using a-bombs on Japan when the truth was 40,000? Well, when you look up the actual documents, you change what you report to reflect the truth. Agent WHINE, I realize you hate America for not being your Personal Pampering Agency, for not being a Nanny State, but let me clue you in on THIS document:
Operation Olympic.
The first order of business for Overlord: storm the beaches.
The first order of business for Olympic: nerve gas the beaches.
I prefer nukes. Their effects are shorter lived than chemical weapons. Don't believe me? Well, head on over to France, where farmers still occasionally develop mustard blisters when plowing old WWI fields. Even Strontium-90 has a half life of 30 years.
We reasonable people don't hate the United States for not lavishing goodie upon goodie upon goodie as the Going Nowhere gang does. But not you, because you cannot function without a Nanny Government doing everything FOR you.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
That isn the issue...
December 13, 2007 - 19:12 ET by ThalpyThat isn't the issue of the concept of revisionism. Revisionism is whats going on in Europe now by removing the Crusades and certain aspects about WWII so that the Horde of Islam won't be offended. Revisionism is writing a history and leaving out serious events that affected history.
As to your last point, Mr. Zinn has seen fit to find the truth and simply leave it out.
You're all missing the
December 13, 2007 - 11:16 ET by JasonCYou're all missing the point. It's called "People's" because it is from the perspective of laborers, minorities, and other marginlized/abused people in American history. It is emphatically not anti-American; at most it is anti-Capitalist/Imperialist. And with a few exceptions, I would argue that Zinn does an excellent job of peeling back the veneer of patriotism that obscures many incidents that do in fact amount to imperialism.
The very title of the book, paranoid Communist associations aside, is, I think, meant to indicate that Zinn does not hold America responsible for these things because America is constituted by the people. He holds responsible a small minority of plutocrats and corrupt politicians. And if it's blasphemous to discuss the largely obscured economic and aristocratic-beneficial aspects of The American Revolutiona and WWII, then all the better that someone engages in such iconoclasm. I suspect that what you all dislike has more to do with his tone than with his relaying important epochs of US History from a point of view other than the proverbial winners.
And before the personal Zinn-bashing starts up, lets keep in mind that he flew bombing missions in WWII and has certainly earned the right to condemn war across the board if he so chooses.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Huh?
December 13, 2007 - 11:28 ET by MightyMouth"It is emphatically not anti-American; at most it is anti-Capitalist/Imperialist."
First off, Capitalism and Imperialism have nothing to do with each other.
Second off, America IS a capitalist society, so logically anything Anti-Capitalist would be Anti-American. What are YOU missing here?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
First off, Capitalism and
December 13, 2007 - 11:31 ET by JasonCFirst off, Capitalism and Imperalism have nothing to do with each other.
They're not exactly mutually exclusive, MM. And it's a long book, he does manage to find time to deal with both. If the issue is simply my using a 'slash' mark to save time, consider it changed to "anti-Capitalist and anti-imperialist". Happy?
Second off, America IS a capitalist society, so logically anything Anti-Capitalist would be Anti-American.
What specious reasoning. What a ludicrous statement. So a 231-year-old nation is only as good as its economic precepts? I'm fairly sure that if a new leader in a Scandinavian or lower-Western Europe declared that he/she wanted to scale back that country's Socialistic approach and become more free-market and employer-friendly, you wouldn't say that makes them "anti-Swedish" or "anti-French".
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Ok explain how the United
December 13, 2007 - 11:45 ET by MightyMouthOk explain how the United States is Imperialistic. I suspect you accept Lenin's theory?
Your second example proves my point. If the majority of Swedish or French people embrace socialism, then a movement away WOULD be "anti" as nations are not just different colors on a map but made up of PEOPLE!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
It's more of a "was" than
December 13, 2007 - 11:59 ET by JasonCIt's more of a "was" than an "is", but TR and the Phillipines is probably a good jumping-off point.
Some people, of course, will tell you that globalization has at once foreclosed and exacerbated some idea of techno-capitalist-imperialism, but I don't really buy into that. If less-developed nations want to buy our goods and services, that's hardly analogous to us just barging in guns blazing.
Sorry, I simply don't accept your notion that a country is inextricably linked with its economic system. And even if I did, I don't think Zinn rails against capitalism per se, but the results that come about when it is absolutely unrestricted. Most of his anti-capitalist jags come from the golden age of laissez-faire.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
"
December 13, 2007 - 12:21 ET by MightyMouth"
Sorry, I simply don't accept your notion that a country is inextricably linked with its economic system."
Of course you wouldn't, Just look at all the members of the communist party that have been elected to prominent positions in our government. Would you like me to point out the number of communist presidents we have had?
<rolls eyes>
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
So because America has
December 13, 2007 - 12:39 ET by JasonCSo because America has never elected a Communist, Howard Zinn is anti-American for explicating the problems and abuses that arose from laissez-faire capitalism?
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
mixed economy
December 13, 2007 - 12:56 ET by AgnosticFirst, America is a mixed economy that has had many restrictions placed upon the people to prevent the abuse of power. Some have failed and some have marginally succeeded and some worked when needed but long out lived their time. The "people" in the American capilist system have so far been able to survive the worst atrocities of those that would rule with oppression. In a socialist society those same oppressors eventually or immediately get full control and that story has been written too many times.
Second, Howard Zinn may not be "anti-American for explicating the problems and abuses that arose from laissez-faire capitalism" but when you complain about a subject without offering a solution or pointing to a better system (emphasis on actually working better) it is just whining to be heard, IMO.
He put his opinion out there to be heard and now everyone has the opportunity to point out that he should have included the good, great and indifferent things about capitalism not just the negative.
Howard Zinn is not FoxNews.
December 13, 2007 - 14:12 ET by JasonCHoward Zinn is not FoxNews. It is not his job to be fair and balanced about capitalism. Do you expect Ann Coulter to say everything good that Ted Kennedy did? His book serves as an antidote to the traditional history lesson that America and its brand of capitalism was fair and equitable to everyone, you know, that proverbial story about the poor immigrant who came to America with a nickel, was warmly welcomed, and built an empire. That myth may have roots in some increidble true stories, but it glosses over things like Triangle Shirtwaist, the Ludlow Massacre, Sacco & Vanzetti, etc...
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
huh? (again)
December 13, 2007 - 14:18 ET by MightyMouth"..history lesson that America and its brand of capitalism was fair and equitable to everyone"
Which orifice did you pull that out of?
Before you answer, remember this is a family site.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Don't talk about orifices
December 13, 2007 - 14:22 ET by JasonCDon't talk about orifices and expect a clean answer. But really, I have no idea what you're talking about. I learned in Elementary School history class that the principle of American capitalism was that everyone had a chance, we were the "land of opportunity" (and also that Washington and the founding fathers were on a moral level somewhere between Ghandi and Jesus). Zinn thoroughly demonstrates that for poor working immigrants, wage slavery at 80 hours/week was the only option and that those who controlled the money could do whatever they pleased while the gov't looked the other way. This would be like pre-WWI, but nonetheless, sounds like a conservative's dream to me.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Okey dokey...
December 13, 2007 - 14:29 ET by MightyMouthThe last line of the blog post reads...
"American history shouldn't be whitewashed, but Zinn went to the other
extreme and favored embarrassing parts. Sounds perfect for Hollywood."
To save some time I guess I'll just come out and ask if you agree with that conclusion?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
F--- Hollywood. And she
December 13, 2007 - 14:41 ET by JasonCF--- Hollywood. And she makes it sounds like Zinn favored the "embarassing parts" just to be a fly in the ointment. The point of the book was to combat the common pop-historical treatments that have implied America could do no wrong.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
One thing vs another
December 13, 2007 - 15:42 ET by UnsaneJason, it is one thing to say that America does no wrong; quite another to say America does NOTHING BUT wrong.
I would elaborate on this further, but I have masses to oppress on my way to a football game.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
But Zinn doesn't do that.
December 13, 2007 - 16:58 ET by JasonCBut Zinn doesn't do that. His book is a heavily anecdotal argument against laissez-faire capitalism and aggressive foreign policy. It's hardly about everything America does wrong. I'd say Zinn takes quite a bit of pride in the stories about the skilled (and unskilled) laborers that built this country.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
JasonC
December 13, 2007 - 17:12 ET by MrShyYeah, but his book is now no longer the "lone voice" in the wilderness... at ALL. You say:
"The point of the book was to combat the common pop-historical treatments that have implied America could do no wrong."
For the last decade (wow, basically, while an (R) has been occuping the WH.... go figa' :p) a large swath of movies, TV shows, books, etc. -- all mediums of pop art/culture -- have implied that, at the core, we ARE doing wrong, and do NOT mean well in the global community. We've "lost our way", or somesuch...
Really, in this day and age, we don't need to hear yet more of this from the Zinn's of the world. Okay, fine, he was the pioneer of this in the early 1980's. We all owe a debt of gratitude to him then, I guess (yes, mostly sarc...)
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
If the poor clueless
December 13, 2007 - 11:49 ET by Wineguy13If the poor clueless posters on this site miss the point, it is understandable, since the books purports to be a history of the United States. Histories have many uses, but the use to which Mr. Zinn applies his is to argue points about his personal social and economic views. This use would find itself better expressed through writing labeled opinion, not history.
As for Mr. Zinn's right to condemn war: Does he have the right to omit historically significant events in so doing? I think his right to believe what he chooses is not in danger, only historical accuracy is.
But it is history! Picking
December 13, 2007 - 12:02 ET by JasonCBut it is history! Picking at a couple of inaccuracies in an 800-page book doesn't change the fact that this is a history piece, not an op/ed. And he doesn't omit key historical occurences so much as acknowledge them and their canonization in the American consciousness in order to disrupt and qualify the events surrounding them which are generally undiscussed. This may seem like old hat now if you're of the disposition that public schools and academic history does nothing but act the iconoclast, but Zinn did it before it was hip.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
I went through college when
December 13, 2007 - 12:42 ET by Wineguy13I went through college when this guy was the 'happening thing'. I DID read the book although it was a long time ago (not a thorough reading). I remember it as being a survey of many topics and an actual history of others. This can give the reader an inaccurate impression of historical events. This is doing the reader a disservice. I also read a book by a man named North. It was an Economic history of the U.S. and glossed over many of the events in history which had little economic significance. This is understandable. One could argue that the publishers covered this by using "People's" in the title. However, I don't think the boosters of this project (documentary) intend it to be anything but an expose' against past and present fascism (or whatever their bete noir).
As for your final point, the educational institutions of the past used to be anything but iconoclastic. Until the early twentieth century and Dewey's influence, education reinforced the mores and institutions of the status quo. Indeed, your pseudo-Hegelian view of Zinn, is misguided. It was nothing new to write as Zinn did in 1980. What was new was to have it find its way to the hoi poloi.
Furthermore, Lynn
December 13, 2007 - 11:26 ET by JasonCHow does a book written in 1980 manage to make any sort of claim about Reagan's unemployment record?
Robert Morris is generally seen as that era's wealthiest man.
"Generally seen as"? Wow, there's an iron-clad rebuttal!
Even though the latest round of America-hating movies flopped
As I wrote in my other post, Zinn's work is far from "America-hating", even if it has been adapted and misused by some who are. Zinn's book is about reclaiming America from the privileged who think they can literally buy it.
by pop historian and Karl Marx fanboy Howard Zinn
Nice jab. Zinn is respected in serious academic circles and his book contains over a thousand Works Cited.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Zinn's book is about
December 13, 2007 - 14:26 ET by fitzfongZinn's book is about reclaiming America from the privileged who think they can literally buy it.
You mean like George Soros, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, the Clintons, John Kerry, Warren Buffett, John Edwards and the like? Zinn and his ilk have no problem with the privileged buying the country. They just have to be of the same bankrupt ideology.
Nice jab. Zinn is respected in serious academic circles and his book contains over a thousand Works Cited.
I see, so a bunch of professional scholars (i.e. desk jockeys, analysts) with zero practical experience in the real world descend from the ivory tower fantasy land that is academia to endorse this man and his book. The slackers and the cool kids like it...it must be accurate.
Wow, you are really
December 13, 2007 - 14:45 ET by JasonCWow, you are really irritating today. The question was posed to the author of the blog, but fine. You seem to think I'll be frightened off by your invoking the names of rich Democrats and leftists. Zinn blasts Democrats all the time. Did you see the article he wrote before the 200 election? Zinn is no Democrat, believe me. And the element of laissez-faire capitalism that I'm discussing in relation to Zinn's book goes back to pre-WWI labor issues and beyond. It must be so much fun to just rattle off names of rich leftists and sit back thinking you've proven something.
You obviously have some sort of beef with academia in general, so I'll just leave that one alone.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
fitz... I think Jason
December 13, 2007 - 14:47 ET by Clear thinkerfitz...
I think Jason likes you ;-)
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
CT, The feeling is
December 13, 2007 - 15:42 ET by fitzfongCT,
The feeling is mutual. Can't you tell? ;-)
fitz...
December 13, 2007 - 15:50 ET by Clear thinkerJust don't bend over for a bar of soap if he asks you to take a shower with him!!!
:-0
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
Nice. Now why did you have
December 13, 2007 - 20:51 ET by fitzfongNice. Now why did you have to go and do that?
JC
December 13, 2007 - 15:03 ET by MrShy"Zinn is respected in serious academic circles"
As fitz pointed out above, therein lies our "problem", or root of contention and referencing of what is true.
Did you see the article he wrote before the 200 election?
How old IS this Zinn dude? (couldn't resist some silliness...)
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
Well I did see Zinn speak
December 13, 2007 - 16:13 ET by JasonCWell I did see Zinn speak once and it's tempting to assume that he was kicking around in 200 AD. He's no spring chicken. But seriously, his article prior to the 2000 election was excellent, and he gave Gore no quarter, believe me.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
None of the rich leftists I
December 13, 2007 - 15:39 ET by fitzfongNone of the rich leftists I "rattled off" are capitalists...they're wealthy opportunists. No one on that list acquired wealth through the hard work that capitalism rewards...they acquired wealth through inheritence, marriage, exploitation or, in the case of John Edwards, sleazy shakedowns. They quite enjoy the status their wealth affords them, and, as such, embrace the ideals Zinn champions. The only thing left for them to shoot for is unlimited power. You strike me as someone who knows not the first thing about business and what it takes to run one. You can question the motives of the businessman from a safe distance, without acquiring the knowledge or experience to make such sweeping judgments. As such, someone like Zinn is right up your alley. And if academia is worth its salt in your mind, why not defend your position rather than chalking it up to some personality defect on my part?
You may not realize it but
December 13, 2007 - 16:11 ET by JasonCYou may not realize it but you're kind of talking like Zinn here. Since Edwards is rich and liberal, it's not "a career in law" that made him that way, it's shakedowns. Your blanket term "exploitation" could be applied to the vast majority of those who have "earned" wealth through the market-driven capitalist system. You're engaging in the same manner of argument that you accuse Zinn of.
What element of academia would you like me to defend? That it requires more hard work (for almost no money) to become a part of than almost any other profession? It's complex system of peer review that ensures the production of non-BS publications? The fact that a college education is one of the most prized commodities in American culture and thus the professors who provide it SHOULD be compensated with decent salary and job security? Give me something specific, I'll defend it.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
It's rich for someone of
December 13, 2007 - 17:07 ET by fitzfongIt's rich for someone of your ilk to claim that I've inserted a "blanket" term into this discussion while simutaneously slandering the "vast majority" of those who have EARNED their wealth through market capitalism. John Edwards saw an opportunity to enrich himself by ruining the lives of doctors using a combination of a hand-picked sympathetic jury, boatloads of nuisance discovery motions designed to run up opposition legal bills and an absolutely shameful closing argument stunt. He's helped to make the field of obstetrics a virtual legal land mine, forcing doctors to engage in previously unnecessary c-sections just to avoid the hassle of liability. Perhaps it's not what's best for the patients, but it certainly helps to keep the parasitic trial lawyers away. He's certainly worthy of your defense.
Your blind respect for academia illustrates exactly what is wrong with the educational system. Unlike your glowing portrayal of academia as a "complex system of peer review that ensures the production of non-BS publications", higher education is more accurately described as fraternity of like-minded individuals, who lacking the will to make it in the real world, seek solace in the comfort of a glorified commune with the security of lifetime employment and the ability to leverage the beliefs and opinions of others against a grade. The important pursuit for academics is their own personal glorification. They come from the perspective that if you have a few impressive sounding letters behind your name, that you have somehow "earned" the right to demand lifetime employment no matter how incompetent you are at your actual job. You get high school teachers who demand statutory pay raises not because they have successfully taught their students (frankly that's only incidental to the maintenance of their employment), but because they have completed a Masters degree as opposed to a Bachelors degree (or a PhD as opposed to a Masters degree)...in other words, they have enriched themselves and demand compensation for doing so. As someone with a Masters degree, I have learned through experience not to put too much stock in others simply because they have advanced degrees. A terrible teacher with a PhD is still a terrible teacher.
That Crafty Capitalist Zinn and His Updated Editions
December 13, 2007 - 19:42 ET by Lynn DavidsonHow does a book written in 1980 manage to make any sort of claim about Reagan's unemployment record?
Through those ever-expanding tentacles of capitalism.
"A People's History" was originally published in 1980, but as with many textbooks or with popular non-fiction, it was updated and re-issued with new information--as it was with the 1995 and 2003 editions.
Yet another example of how evil capitalism is. The updated editions were clearly designed to wring more dollars out of the public. Just more proof that capitalists just take, take, take from the common man.
Perhaps Zinn should have found a way to give the new information away for free. You know, for the greater good. :)
Yes, I knew that. My own
December 14, 2007 - 17:28 ET by JasonCYes, I knew that. My own edition covers the Clinton years (not very favorably I might add). Just testing you I guess.
Your comments on Zinn's apparent hypocrisy would be valid if the printing of new editions involved suib-minimum wage workers being crushed in the press and their families denied compensation. That is the stratum of capitalism-run-amok that Zinn decries.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
How about some cheese with that whine?
December 14, 2007 - 17:34 ET by MightyMouth"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Sharp cheddar and a wedge
December 14, 2007 - 17:40 ET by JasonCSharp cheddar and a wedge of Stilton if you don't mind....
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Nope!!!!!!!!
December 14, 2007 - 17:50 ET by MightyMouthYou get this cheese!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Grooooss. "He was, and is
December 14, 2007 - 17:52 ET by JasonCGrooooss.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
"and Maoist China was
December 13, 2007 - 11:30 ET by Carl Kolchak"and Maoist China was “the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a people’s government, independent of outside control.”
Maoist China had so many internal controls that they didn't need outside control, but I think the Soviets were the model they followed when setting up their government. Checkout Mao's Hundred Flowers Campaign to see how much internal control they had. Intellecctuals were led to believe they were free to express criticisms of Mao's China, and then once Mao found out every one wasn't saying nice things or thinking he was the great leader he thought he was, they needed to oppress those who had dared to speak out after Mao and Company had told them it was ok. Just finished reading "Secret Diary From Red China" by S.T. Tung, which is a dairy smuggled out of Red China that gives a good idea of how an average peasent survived in Mao's China, and all the internal controls by the State. Mao's propoganda machine was full of lies which made him and the State seem perfect. Let's see Lynn no mention of Jonas Salk in the book, but praises for Mao. I wonder which person between Salk and Mao has done more good for mankind according to Zinn.
"The Chancellor-the late chancellor-was only part correct. He was obsolete. But so was the State, the entity he worshiped. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of man, that state is obsolete. A case to be filed under 'M' for Mankind in the Twilight Zone" Rod Serling
Carl -- well you can't make
December 13, 2007 - 12:01 ET by Jack BauerCarl -- well you can't make an omlet without breaking an egg and murdering millions people!
Zinn's just another creepy Marxist who never met a commie dictator he didn't drool over.
There's nothing so
December 13, 2007 - 11:53 ET by Jack BauerIntellectuals
December 13, 2007 - 14:02 ET by iveseenitallImagine an America run completely by lefty "intellectuals"? Too many of them control our "educational" system already. Scheeze! Thousand of kids here in Florida are signing up for "virtual" schools. I wonder why?
BTW, The rationalizing about and apologizing for this guy Zinn is laughable.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "Liberal"
Who's apologizing? His
December 13, 2007 - 14:05 ET by JasonCWho's apologizing? His work is important and has grown in readership every year since it was published. There's nothing to apologize for.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Apology
December 13, 2007 - 16:30 ET by iveseenitallI'm using "apology" in the classical sense. Look it up.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Ever see the Simpsons
December 13, 2007 - 14:22 ET by islero47Ever see the Simpsons episode which Lisa and the Springfield MENSA chapter take charge? Not as biting as it could have been, but certainly poked fun at smartypants knowitalls who think they can run the show because they got A's in school and can play chess.
"Imagine an America run
December 13, 2007 - 19:50 ET by Blazer"Imagine an America run completely by lefty "intellectuals"?
Ask Cambodia what that would be like.
Oh, I'm sorry there are very few Cambodian's around who remember what that was like and that was only a little over a quarter century ago.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "
- Ben Kenobi on Liberals, and the MSM.