Time's Padgett Levels 'Palm Sunday Plea: Let Priests Marry'
Holy Week seems to be a favorite time of year for the liberal media to level challenges to the Christian faith, either in its theological claims or in some matter of ecclesial practice, or both.
So it's no surprise that Time's Tim Padgett used yesterday, Palm Sunday, to write his "Palm Sunday Plea: Let Priests Marry":
Story Continues Below Ad ↓One of the best Roman Catholic priests I've ever known, Father Berns, was a widower. He had a mind as broad as his faith was deep; he served a dry martini but never a dry homily. And I've always wondered how large a role the gloriously messy life experience of a wife and children played in making him such an unusually engaging, and engaged, Catholic cleric.
The answer, of course, is that there is no real answer, especially when I consider all the lifelong celibate priests whom I've admired as much as I did Father Berns. Still, he's on my mind right now because of the Catholic Church's latest sexual abuse scandal, playing out in Philadelphia. There, on Friday, April 15, three priests and a former Catholic school teacher pleaded not guilty to charges of raping and sexually assaulting minors. What makes this case different, however, is that for the first time in the U.S., a higher-ranking Catholic official, Monsignor William Lynn, former secretary of the clergy for the Philadelphia archdiocese, is being charged with trying to cover up the abuse. (Lynn too pleaded not guilty on Friday.) (See photos of the Pope visiting America.)
It's that twist that has me thinking of Father Berns — and it has made me more convinced than ever that the Catholic Church has got to drop its celibacy requirement for priests. I say that not because I think letting priests marry would have prevented priestly abuse. Pedophiles prey regardless of marital status. I say it, especially after having interviewed abuse victims, because I think letting Catholic clergy have wives and families may well make the hierarchy, from guys like Lynn on up to bishops and the Vatican, more concerned about safeguarding youths than about protecting priests.
Padgett noted his concerns were those of "a hack and not a theologian," before predictably citing the case of Father Albert Cutie to make his case for allowing priests to marry:
...I'd suggest Catholics could start that process this week by recalling another, more benign scandal that hit the church two springs ago. That was the case of the Rev. Albert Cutié, the Catholic priest and Spanish-language television talk-show star who left the church in 2009 after a tabloid printed photos of him and his covert girlfriend (now his wife) cuddling on a Miami beach. Cutié, aka "Padre Alberto," became an Episcopal priest and, this past December, the father of a baby girl. In the process he's refueled the Catholic debate about clerical celibacy, and the upcoming Philadelphia trial makes his story especially relevant.
That's because Cutié, despite the double life he once led, has forced Catholics to consider a key question: Why did his romantic relationship with a woman — a peccadillo most Catholics shrugged at when the scandal broke — seem to elicit as much if not more outrage from the church hierarchy as the priestly sexual abuse of minors has?
Um, perhaps because the Catholic church understandably puts a very high value on clerical vows.
Padgett continued his argument by suggesting that
the Catholic Church risks breeding insensitivity by segregating its diocesan priests and bishops from the world of wives, children and the loving sex that begets them. It risks sending the message that those human joys would somehow sully their vocations — that those things are inferior to the priesthood, and so protecting the holy fraternity is what matters most during a crisis like the sexual abuse plague.
A "holy fraternity" that views itself as above the laity? How exactly is that constructive criticism that respects traditional Catholics?
Despite insisting he's a "hack" and not a theologian, Padgett went on to insist he knows why the Catholic Church required celibacy in the first place:
[A]s Catholicism became more affixed to the Roman Empire, the church fathers fell increasingly under the influence of Stoicism and its demonization of sex, an attitude the medieval church codified. Today the church would argue that celibacy isn't about demonizing sex but rather nobly sacrificing it as part of being alter Christus, or "another Christ."
I and most other Catholics can respect that — if it's a priest's choice. Unfortunately, we're also aware that mandatory celibacy has led to an unnecessary isolation of our clergy — and, in turn, to the harmful sense of clerical superiority we've seen so much of during the abuse crisis. All I know is, I saw a lot less of it in Father Berns.
Don't get me wrong. As a Protestant I disagree with the Catholic Church on this and many other points, and I believe there are solid biblical arguments to back me up.
But sound biblical exegesis and healthy, respectful theological debate do not seem to be Padgett's or Time magazine's concern.
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Comments
been there, done that
Submitted by JeffC... on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 4:46pm.
Roman Catholic priests could marry long ago. This caused some problems. Then priests weren't allowed to marry and that particular problem went away.
I fail to see how the author's problems would disappear if priests were allowed to marry.
When will the Christian and
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 5:16pm.
When will the Christian and Catholic haters in the American media dare to write articles against Islam during one of their holiest holidays, say Ramdan? Easter is THE most importatnt holiday in the Roman Catholic Church and the media has been attacking the Church, as they have done for decades, during this Holiest of Holidays.
As a Roman Catholic, I could get into Biblical supported reasons as to why priests do not get marry today, but I think that is not the point at all.
Rather it is the media's belief that they know more and they are better than the Roman Catholic Church.
By the way, as a Romam Catholic never ONCE have I ever been taught or have I ever thought or felt that priests, bishops, etc have a higher status than me. In fact, we are taught that we the laymen and lay women make the bulk of The Church. The Church is an upside pyramid with the laymen on top and priests, bishops and The Pope at the bottom. However, at the end, we are all equal in the eyes of God, no one is higher or lower.
This writer sounds like a Cafetiria Catholic that barely understands Catholicism. The Time's piece is riddled with mistakes and half-truths, as always.
Pope wakes up, sez married priests now A-OK.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 5:36pm.
For laughs, let's just assume it happened.
Now anyone care to venture a guess how long it would take the MSM to start whining about why gay priests should also not be allowed to marry?
My guess would be one week.
Where on earth did Padgett
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:25pm.
Where on earth did Padgett get the idea that the Cutie situation
seem[ed] to elicit as much if not more outrage from the church hierarchy as the priestly sexual abuse of minors has?
Is this guy serious?
Haven't we heard all this before?
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:31pm.
Now it's "priests don't have wives and children, so they can't protect children."
It used to be "priests aren't married so they can't be marriage counselors."
The more things change....
Ah but the problem is...
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:39pm.
Jesus said in Mat 19:10-12.. "it is better not to marry if you can..." But he does not prohibit it. The Catholic dogma prohibits it. To my way of thinking, it's like adding things to the constitution that are not there! You Catholic NB'ers have to admit that celibacy is largely tradition and is NOT prohibited in scripture.
As a Catholic NB'r
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:45pm.
I don't have to admit a thing. I have to practice my religion and allow you to practice yours. My objection is when people of other faiths chime in on an issue that doesn't concern them, meaning the press. Where are the articles saying wearing burquas should be stopped?
Well then show us the scripture...
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:51pm.
Look, I don't want to get into another baptist v catholic debate. Just show the scripture. If you can't it's probably tradition, admit that, and we are cool...
I don't have to show you any scripture
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:10pm.
or prove anything to you. I'm not saying priests in other religions shouldn't marry. That's not my business. This is not the place for religious debate. It is a place to discuss liberal bias, and there is a liberal bias against Christianity.
Then why did you reply to me radical?
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:24pm.
You shouldn't get your feathers ruffled so easily. I saw this tactic with many Catholic apologists on NB in the past. If you don't want to prove your beliefs by scripture, so be it, don't. And I didn't bring this topic up, NB did! I know the liberal bias against Christianity, and this is not one of them! This is specific to Catholics! So if anything we should be saying: "NB keep the liberal bias against Catholics to yourselves, unless of course you think ALL NB'ERS ARE CATHOLICS!"
Mighty Mouth
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:32pm.
So NB shouldn't post bias specific to any form of Christianity unless the bias applies to every single Christian ever? That's like saying NB shouldn't post about bias against Tea Partier's because not all conservatives are members of the Tea Party.
I am not a "Catholic apologist". I am a Catholic. Like many people I don't like to see the teachings of my faith attacked when there is no reason for it. Are you one of the people who goes after Mormonism every time that subject comes up? Because I believe in my religion I don't question the religion of others unless that religion interferes with my life.
No, I am saying NB should
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:01pm.
No, I am saying NB should stay out of the Christian bias business because there are more than Catholics here. LIberal bias is one thing, but Catholic Priest bias is another. Religion = Conservative does not wash!
Mighty Mouth
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:07pm.
That would suit me fine. Not for your reason, but because whenever the Catholic religion comes up people question the teachings. That doesn't belong on this site either.
Noel, can you hear us? Just a suggestion.
Catholics and evangelicals
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:31pm.
Catholics and evangelicals are the biggest targets for the liberal media, and also the most conservative in terms of faith and morals. Hence why you'll notice the most liberal media bias posts about religion have to do with slanted coverage of Catholics or evangelicals. Now, if there's media bias against Orthodox Jews or conservative confessional Lutherans (Missouri Synod, that sort of thing), I'd gladly write about that too.
NB's mission is to point out liberal bias in the media.
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:13pm.
This is an example of liberal bias against Catholics and Catholic priests.
Liberal bias = bias against conservatives doesn't wash either!
Liberals can be biased against things other than the political.
Look at this way MM*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:36pm.
When the media goes after Christians, it is generally Catholics in particular they attack. So Ms Rad may feel like she has been insulted. Perhaps in the same way someone like you would be attacked by the media for being a toothless, tea bagging redneck. Prove you are not. No need to quote the scriptures.
Cajun2, you just dropped 100
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:03pm.
Cajun2, you just dropped 100 points on my credibility scale. You folks are just being mean now.
Mighty Mouth
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:08pm.
And your comments weren't?
cajun, check your pm's.
Well, rad, I started by
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:09pm.
Well, rad, I started by quoting scripture... which is too much for some NB'ers to handle.
You pick parts of scripture.
Submitted by Soldat44 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:13pm.
You pick parts of scripture. So typical.
I am open to you picking your
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:17pm.
I am open to you picking your own. DO IT!
You quoted scripture to show us Catholics where
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:15pm.
we are wrong on an issue. It had nothing to do with liberal bias in the media. Just trying to prove the Catholic Church is wrong.
I didn't say the Catholic
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:19pm.
I didn't say the Catholic Church was wrong, I just said it was Catholic dogma or tradition. And that there is another point of view. Peroid! You'all jumped me!
And it relates to liber bias...
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:30pm.
how? From my perspective the dogma or tradition of the Church is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
But the dogma or tradition of
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:45pm.
But the dogma or tradition of the Church was the focal point of this rather messy exchange. Please restate the issue at hand...
edit: Nevermind rad, sorry for insulting you in this way.
The issue at hand
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:47pm.
was that Time magazine chose Holy Week to write a "plea" asking the Catholic Church to change something at the core of the faith of it's followers. They used the story of a former Catholic priest to make their case, and asked Catholics to institute such a change.
Has Time ever published an article pleading for Muslims to allow women the freedoms that men have? Saying Sharia law should really be abolished, and then, as another poster pointed out, published it during Ramadan? No, because for some bizarre reason the left finds Islam acceptable, but finds most of Christianity unacceptable.
MightyMouth
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:57pm.
Please check your pm's. thanks.
MightyMouth, You are so
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:49pm.
MightyMouth,
You are so wrong, MightyMouth, the Roman Catholic Church uses both The Holy Bible and Holy Tradition to show that God does not want priests to marry.
I am sorry, MightyMouth, on this matter you know very, very little about the Roman Catholic Church.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm. Please read this link go to the other links, etc, etc. As you can see Scripture is very much involved as well as Holy Traditon for priest not getting married in the Roman Catholic Church.
Are you sportpolitic of NB times past?
Submitted by MightyMouth on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 2:46am.
Truth is.. I am not Catholic or Anti-Catholic.. nor protestant, nor evangelical. I am a Baptist, and a fundie. Was saved a fundie, baptized a fundie when I was 12 years old...now 55 and graduated from BBC Springfield Missouri (the same college as Jerry Falwell). I know what Catholics believe and I know what Baptists believe. So please don't try to lecture me.... thanks....
MightyMouth et al.
Submitted by lotr on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 9:37am.
Please see my post way down at the very bottom of this burgeoning thread.
There is nothing inherently wrong or untrue about MightyMouth's original post: There is nothing in Scripture explicitly forbidding priests (or clergy, if you will) from marrying.
That is why the Church correctly considers priestly celibacy to be a discipline, not a dogma.
In principle, the requirement of celibacy could be relaxed, and priests could be allowed to marry.
In principle.
Now, as to whether MightyMouth meant to impugn the Catholic Church by making his statement, I don't necessarily see anything in his posts to suggest so.
While Scripture may not explicitly require clerical celibacy, it nevertheless does not follow that the discipline of celibacy is somehow unscriptural. Because in fact, the opposite is true -- celibacy without question has basis in Scripture. Notice the difference.
lotr, I have spoken to
Submitted by Liberallies on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:53am.
lotr,
I have spoken to priests about this matter. You are right, it is not a dogma, it is a discipline. I was mistaken with the dogma assertion. However, the discipline is based on Holy Bible and Holy Tradition.
My contention with MightyMouth is that he came in here attempting to lecture Roman Catholics claiming that this discipline is not based on Holy Scripture. This is completely and utterly untrue. Of course it is based on the Holy Bible as well as Holy Tradition as proven through the link I provided to the New Advent Encyclopedia.
Furthermore, he asks not to be lectured, but he has zero problem lecturing Roman Catholics. Sadly, this is what I constantly run into when debating Protestants, yes MightyMouth Baptist are also Protestants. They love to lecture Roman Catholics, but wow if the Protestants feels that he is being lectured.
MightyMouth and I have agreed countless of times in the past about Conservatism, politics, Liberals, etc. but why is it that Protestants always have to go after the Roman Catholic Church. he would be the first one up in arms if anyone went after his Baptist church and beliefs.
Why do so many people who are not Roman Catholics or even so called "Catholics" who do not practice care so much about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches or does not teach?
MightyMouth, 1) You do not
Submitted by Liberallies on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:34am.
MightyMouth,
1) You do not know what Roman Catholics believe. If you did, you wouldn't have said the untruths, for lack of a better term, that you have been saying here about Roman Catholics.
2) Interesting that you do not want to be lectured, but you have zero problem lecturing to Roman Catholics regarding what YOU believe, we believe and what YOU believe the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
On both instances, you are 100% wrong. As it has been shown to you, priest celibecy IS BASED on the Holy Bible as well as Holy Tradition. Your claim that it is not based on the Bible is, well, 100% wrong. Thus, you don't know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches or what we, The Church, believe.
3) Once again, you do not know what Roman Catholics believe. Please refrain from lecturing Roman Catholics and telling us what YOU believe we believe and what the Roman Catholic teaches.
55 or not, you are wrong. Stay away from lecturing Catholics and I will not have to correct your horrendous mistakes about Her, deal? Thanks!
I am sure you wouldn't want me lecturing you on what Baptists believe or do not believe, right? I ask that you respect as much and do the same.
Why would you ask not to be lecture, yet you have zero problem lecturing us Catholics? WOW!
delete
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:30pm.
delete
MM, please read my post again*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:18pm.
My intent was to show you that the media bases its "bias" on lack of depth of understanding, stereotyping, and generalizations. The media takes great pleasure during Easter Week to denigrate Catholics especially and Christians in general. Their attacks are based on misinterpretations of the very tenents of the Catholic Church. Some are simply atheistic attacks, others are simply attempts to demean and denigrate anyone stupid enough to believe that their is an entity greater than our little narcissistic selves. The anti Christians are either hard core Islam or atheists who call themselves enlightened progressives. Self absorbed narcissists to me.
This same group shows its hypocrisy in denigrating the Tea Party by saying we hate the poor and blacks and want to kill old people. While they espouse the enlightened "choice" to murder the unborn of those same poor and blacks. Again, stereotyping, generalizations and demeaning identification of conservatives.
My point was, Do you MightyMouth ever feel denigrated or insulted by being called toothless ignorant tea bagging redneck based on stereotypying and distortion of the beliefs of conservatives?
If you feel you have been wrongly insulted by the liberal media bias based on stereotypes, then perhaps you can then understand why Ms Rad may feel insulted by attacks on the Catholic Church in this the Holiest of times for Catholics.
I was not in any way trying to insult you but trying to point out that perhaps you did not recognize why this article may be demeaning to many here at NB, not just Catholics.
I apologize, cajun, looking
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:27pm.
I apologize, cajun, looking back at MY post, it does seem like an attack on Catholics. I have never done that on NB (in 5 years). I just was trying to make this one point about marriage for Priests, by saying it was a tradition of the Church. That's pretty much it :-)
No problem MM*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:36pm.
Although I dislike posting looooong comments, sometimes I need to do so to clarify my thoughts on a particular subject. I hope this means I get my 100 points back....;-)
I always say it takes 100
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:41pm.
I always say it takes 100 attaboys to equal one oh sh*t. But in your case and rads :-) you both get respect back (even if it doesn't mean a thing to either of you). I will just stay out of these sort of discussions in the future. No harm, no foul. :-)
Mighty Mouth
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:39pm.
Respect back at ya. Have a good night.
MightyMouth, C'mon man. You
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:31pm.
MightyMouth,
C'mon man. You know that your "challenge" would not be taken by any serious and practicing Roman Catholic since we not only use the Holy Bible, but also Holy Tradition, as the Bible clearly states we should, which Fundamentalist do not adhere to. Thus, nothing of what a Roman Catholic will say will satifisy an individual like you.
There are Theological reasons and very good ones why the Roman Catholic Church knows that God doesn't want married priests. The question is, are you open to God's teaching or only to what you believe are His teachings?
As Radical said, this is not about the Roman Catholic teaching, but rather about the Liberal bias against Christianity. NB has written about Liberal bias against Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics not only about Catholics.
What I find amazing is that in many instances I hear Liberals and anti-Cahtolics on the Right use exactly the same tactics and arguments to attempt to discredit the Roman Catholic Churchc. The Liberal bias against the Roman Catholic Church is very much alive in many Right-wing Christian religions which are not Roman Catholic. You seem to be part of this.
Remember too, that NB rules forbid the debate of what religion is THE religion. It also forbids attacking other religions and putting down the religious beliefs of others. It is fruitless and pointless to engage in this type of debate over a blog since I can assure you neither side will have any converts over the internet.
I see, so as long as we all
Submitted by Soldat44 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:11pm.
I see, so as long as we all agree with you, we can be cool with you. Is that it? If you do not like Catholic dogma then leave the church. If you are not Catholic then mind your own business. Respectfully, unless you want me coming to your home and telling you how to run your life.
You should heed your own
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:21pm.
You should heed your own words. I come to NB to see liberal media bias not a Christian civil war!
Then do not start one.
Submitted by Soldat44 on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 8:00am.
Then do not start one.
No it's easier
Submitted by dgv on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:49pm.
For the church and its followers to blame its accusers and stonewall about decisions that are made behind close doors. Decisions that are in the end best for the church as these elites see it.
Sounds familiar doesn't it.
dgv
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:03pm.
It is not my intention to bash Catholics, I think they are brothers in Christ. However when a non-scriptual "dogma" is proclaimed I think it merits scrutinty such as when my denomination preached against: pants on women, long hair on men, rock music, holding hands, dancing...on and on... tradition has its limits and soon turn to preferances!
MightyMouth, But that is
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:33pm.
MightyMouth,
But that is just it. you are not a Roman Catholic and by what you are saying, you clearly do not know much about it. There are Scriptual reasons for this DOGMA as well as Traditional ones.
I think as Radical said, you are not a Roman Catholic. I would ask you to please refrain from attack our Faith as much as you would ask that others do not attack yours.
It's not a dogma.
Submitted by troglodyt on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 7:57pm.
If a pope chooses to change the rules, he's at all times free to do so.
iz ze funnee germanzee joke.
Submitted by The Vet on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 2:02am.
öh väit. mehbe nöt zö funniz. is ünt everbödy ignöre tröggiz trölliz. iz mehbe sö säd, nöt ze fünniz. merkel! power! söros! gröbäl wärmting! Shäkespäm!
Are you a Catholic?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:12pm.
If not, then you have no reasons to care or discuss the beliefs of my church. They are not "elites". They are men who have chosen to study our religion and devote their lives to it.
correct, celibacy is not prohibited in scripture
Submitted by lotr on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:33pm.
That's why the Church correctly labels it a "discipline," not a "dogma."
Don't let them distract us!
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 7:51pm.
I went to The Anchoress' website to see if she had a comment on this like-clockwork Catholic-bashing, and she had a link to this article:
Brace yourself for the annual media assault on Christian orthodoxy
This paragraph hit home:
This is the time of year when commentators prepare their own essays on what they see as the inadequacies of the Christian faith, and especially the Catholic Church. Just as surely as the Pope delivers his Urbi et Orbi message on Easter Sunday morning, the pundits will deliver their thoughts on what the Pope should have said and done to reform the Church.
Yes, they have the media's number, as do we all.
But I really loved the last paragraph:
Don’t be surprised by the media onslaught. It’s coming; you can count on it. [actually, it's here] Be prepared: not just intellectually but spiritually. Don’t let the negative stories upset your equanimity, or distract your focus from the real business of Holy Week. Yes, the Church will suffer once again from the scorn of the pundits. But isn’t this the appropriate time for us all to accept the suffering, as our Lord accepted the Cross? Keep in mind, too, that after the sneering and the spitting and the mocking and the shouting we arrive at the glorious triumph of Easter.
motherbelt
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 8:14pm.
I hate when NB puts up a post like this. It's certainly valid as far as liberal bias, but then members start to question and put down the Catholic Church and it's teachings, which have nothing to do with the bias involved. Unless the posters are saying it's o.k. to exhibit bias against a religion they don't happen to believe in.
I'm not responsible for the
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:34pm.
I'm not responsible for the posts of commenters who may hijack a post about bias to argue a religious point. I know that sort of thing is bound to happen, but it's a risk worth having.
Ken
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:38pm.
The people responsible for arguing a religious point are those people, not you. However, I have heard the Pope called a vile name by a poster, and I don't believe anything was ever done about it. That's why I don't like to see these posts come up. But I'm well aware I'm just a guest here.
I agree, Rad, it's too bad
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:53pm.
I agree, Rad, it's too bad that sometimes posters turn those threads in scriptural and doctrinal arguments, when the point is the heavy-handed bias in the media against Catholics.
I don't know if it's a "saying it's o.k. to exhibit bias" or it's an "it's not bias because it's the truth."
Those who disagree with Catholic teaching are likely to see these stories as legitimately pointing out flaws or "speaking truth to power."
delete
Submitted by MightyMouth on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:56pm.
sigh
Submitted by lotr on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 9:31pm.
Stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
Reality check: Nobody, not even the Pope and his "Vatican Assassins," puts a shotgun to a man's head forcing him to be a celibate priest.
What's next? "Let husbands cheat"?
I am a conservative but they got this one right
Submitted by cbeyer on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:32pm.
Celibacy among the priesthood is unnatural. Its a perversion. The MSM gets it right on this one.
Cbeyer, if you think as a
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:40pm.
Cbeyer,
if you think as a mere human, you would be right. however, the Celibacy of a priest is a divine, supernatural one which is FAR from unnatural.
cb
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:42pm.
Fasting is also unnatural. Was Ghandi a pervert for going on a hunger strike?
If a priest is celibate what business is it of yours?
Radical, Go to this link,
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:52pm.
Radical,
Go to this link, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm, it explains well, with Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition why priests are not suppose to get married. It also goes into the history of celebicy in the priesthood.
Have you been listening to the radio station I recommended, Relevant Radio?
Ghandi also became a celibate, while married, no less...
Submitted by lotr on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 8:56pm.
Oh, and did I mention that Jesus was also a celibate?
I know this may come as a surprise with our media-driven idolization of sex as the be all and end all of existence, the Neo-Pagan Golden Calf, but there's this thing called the human free will that enables men and women to behave other than animals who must always copulate in heat.
Nuff said.
curious cbeyer*
Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:47pm.
You see celibacy among the Catholic clergy as a perversion. Are you saying Mother Teresa was a pervert?
Cajun, While the numbers
Submitted by Liberallies on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 10:54pm.
Cajun,
While the numbers have decreased, there are many men and women who are celibate until the day they get married, many times into their 30s or older. I guess this is also unnatural.
Sadly, too many people repeat like parrots cultural memes which they have heard and have never bothered to think the logic of their statement.
You also see people have a
Submitted by redfish on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 12:00am.
You also see people have a really wrong understanding of what is natural and what isn't.
Most people believe for example that animals just hump each other whenever they feel like it, and holding off on having sex is a particular oddity of being a human. But, in fact, most animals have a social structure with strict boundaries, and only mate one a year at mating season. Those who aren't alpha males often don't get to mate, they get left out.
Animals abstain from sex, just like people do, and some animals in a group never have it, just like some people don't. In human society however we have certain freedoms, and we do it through a choice of vocation rather than through a rigidly enforced social structure.
Abstention also wasn't an invention of modern religion. Remember vestal virgins? They had particular state duties and having sex was considered a distraction to those duties as well as something that impugned their integrity. If you could maintain yourself with so many temptations, it meant you had high character and couldn't be tempted to cheat either.
The attitude goes back to the ancient Greeks. Plato argued that celibates could excercise the highest degree of wisdom, because abstaining from bodily desires gave the mind freedom. Aristotle argued that virtue came from having pleasure in doing things that were painful, like working or abstention from material benefits. (Yes, people really misunderstand the ancient Greeks. They weren't all about gay orgies)
Stoicism didn't demonize sex,
Submitted by redfish on Mon, 04/18/2011 - 11:16pm.
Stoicism didn't demonize sex, it criticized the belief that sex was important to life. And in due turn, the Stoics also criticized those who were self-righteous and thought it was important to morally hector people who didn't live up to some standard or didn't have the right values. Just as it wasn't important to have sex, it wasn't important to appear righteous.
All in all, stoicism argued that people should live their life wisely and humbly, and in so doing keep your priorities balanced -- never accepting one extreme or another. Realizing that ultimately nothing in life is important, because in the end its all vanity.
The only people who could dislike stoicism are people who are on some sort of crusade, in my opinion.
Well, Stoicism was a pagan
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:00am.
Well, Stoicism was a pagan philosophy in the Greco-Roman world at the time of Christ. It's not a Christian worldview. Jesus was hardly stoic in his life, as Scriptures attest, and Paul probably had in mind the Stoics, among others, when he wrote to the Corinthian church that the wisdom of this world is folly in God's eyes, and that God's wisdom -- the wisdom of sending His Son Jesus to suffer on the cross to redeem people to God -- was wiser than man's strength.
The gospel of a crucified and risen Savior is folly to the Greek philosophers and weakness to the Jews who were expected a martial messiah who would violently overthrow the Romans.
Yes, some stoics would have
Submitted by redfish on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 11:26am.
Yes, some stoics would have no doubt had the prejudice that Jesus was a fool.
But, on the other hands Christians are also told to be compassionate and not self-righteous, and to help people in a way that is consistent with being compassionate.
And stoics also argued that doing great things was important in life as well as living up to principles and values, their teachings were more against valuing vanities, so those stoics who recognized Jesus as doing a great thing, and living up to some principle, would be appreciative. God's wisdom is not something that man can understand, so its something that someone must be humble to, rather than something to supplant man's wisdom. Stoics, even as pagans, referred to a single creator of the universe, and said that we had to accept what happens in life.
So their prejudices aside, there was a lot of agreement behind their ideas.
There may be elements of
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 1:15pm.
There may be elements of stoicism that are sensible, but they're incomplete and based on a skewed man-centered view of the world, not a view built on biblical revelation that points to Christ and a Christ-centered worldview.
As such everything that governs the Christian life ultimately has to be grounded in God's self revelation in Scripture. As Peter wrote, God's given us everything that pertains to life and godliness through the knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:3).
Only Celibates
Submitted by LaVallette on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 6:15am.
For this idiots argument to stick he has to prove two things:
Only celibates abuse children, and only men abuse children.
BTW: All male, especially unmarried, gynaecologists and obstetricians must leave their field immediately: what would they know about childbirth?
marry what?
Submitted by russedav on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 9:31am.
Since these deranged perverts are opposed to real marriage, most of these sick losers without one of their own, no doubt they want priests to "marry" men. Of course these evil liars carefully coverup
1. the astronomical "divorce" rate of same-sex "couples" and
2. their countless deviant acts with countless other partners outside the "marriage" (deludedly, irrationally pretending it's "monogamy") in order to pursue the diabolical goal of destroying the genuine with their counterfeit fraud, raising the middle finger and phallus in God's face and daring Him to cut them off, as He surely will, God have mercy.
Hey, if St. Peter could have
Submitted by wiwf on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 10:25am.
Hey, if St. Peter could have a wife, then why not a priest today!
Hey, if St. John did not
Submitted by Liberallies on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 11:39am.
Hey,
if St. John did not have a wife then why can't priests today be celibate like St. John!
Not to mention Jesus
Submitted by lotr on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 12:46pm.
Not to mention the great High Priest, Jesus Himself, who is the model for all priests.
Why is it so difficult to imagine that there are men and women who actually freely choose to be celibate (i.e., nobody puts a gun to their head), and have the self-discipline to attain it?
I mean, why doesn't anybody whine on about celibate Buddhist monks?
lotr, hmmm...because
Submitted by Liberallies on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 1:28pm.
lotr,
hmmm...because Buddhist monks are not Roman Catholics. and it is cool to be a Buddhist. I know quite a few Liberals in Chicago who love Buddhism, it is actually quite weird. They love the Dali Lama, etc. Nothing against Buddhist, but I just find it interesting that many on the Left who love to attack the Church love Buddhism. Very weird.
And well put, lotr, Jesus Christ Himself did not have a wife. Priest in the Roman Catholic Church are representatives of Christ here on Earth. Not only are they to follow His example, but also when they administer the Sacraments, it is Christ Himself, through the priest, who is administering the Sacraments.
Celibacy, when done for a Holy reason, is an admirable thing far from unnatural.
Yes, and they never argue
Submitted by redfish on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 2:23pm.
Yes, and they never argue that Buddhist monks are secret pedophiles.
Yes, and they never argue
Submitted by redfish on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 2:24pm.
Yes, and they never argue that Buddhist monks are secret pedophiles.
As a non-Catholic I must
Submitted by ForeverOnTheRight on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 7:01pm.
As a non-Catholic I must respectfully disagree with you on the Priesthood. St. Peter called all believers "a royal priesthood" 1 Peter 2:9. Jesus never married for a reason, that their may be no opportunity for sin. St. Paul said that if you got married it was not a sin, but he also encouraged believers who where not married to stay single. St. Paul clearly makes it a choice for ALL believers, that includes the priest or pastor. There is no place in the Bible where the priest is commanded to celibacy. Jesus did not command those who would be a priest or pastor in the church neither did St. Peter, St. Paul, St. James etc. etc. This celibacy thing comes from the Roman Catholic Church, not the Bible, not from Jesus, St. Peter or St. Paul. I think a priest should have the choice that he may not burn with lust. That is one thing St. Paul said, it is better to marry than to burn with lust and to avoid immorality.
Jesus never married for a
Submitted by motherbelt on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 7:35pm.
Jesus never married for a reason, that their [sic] may be no opportunity for sin
What the heck does THAT mean? Why would marrying be an opportunity for sin?
And I know I'm going to kick myself for doing this, because usuallly stay away from these arguments because no minds are ever changed. But I have to point this out:
Paul encouraged unmarried people to remain unmarried so that they would not be concerned with the things of the world and families, but could devote their lives fully to the gospel.
That's pretty much the thinking of the RCC today. So the Church IS taking inspiration from scripture.
Celicacy is a choice. It is a choice to be made BEFORE one becomes a priest.
They don't get to make their vows and THEN decide that it's too hard, and the Church is being unreasonable.
If it's better to marry than to burn, then a man who isn't willing, or doesn't think he is capable of being celibate should marry, not become a priest. Period.
And while we're using Paul for inspiration, he also begged God three times to remove a painful thorn from him, and God said "My grace is sufficient unto thee."
bravo motherbelt
Submitted by lotr on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 9:09pm.
And thanks for the assist.
Celibacy is, without question, Scriptural, as you have more than adequately pointed out.
Let me also point out that it is Christian dogma that celibacy is required of anyone (i.e., not just priests) who remains unmarried. Period.
I agree that it is very difficult to change minds, even with flawless arguments: "A person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
However, do keep in mind that there are others with no vested opinion who read the thread. This I consider the primary reason for responding to gross errors when they appear.
ForeverontheRight, I dont'
Submitted by Liberallies on Tue, 04/19/2011 - 7:37pm.
ForeverontheRight,
I dont' want to get into the many errors that your post contains. However, I will say this, you are a non-Catholic, thus you don't need to worry about your "priests" not marrying, right? You wouldn't like it if individuals that are not of your religion dictated how your "priests" should act, what they should do or not do, right?
Worry about the actions, theology and rules of the religion you have chosen to practice and follow it, instead of worrying about Catholicism. Why do you or any other non-Catholic get to give Roman Catholics a lecture on how Catholic priests should or should not act? on What rules, theology, discipline, dogma the Church has? Would you like it if I started giving you a lecture on your particular religion and the many errors it contains? of course not.
If you are looking to become a Catholic and have a serious, honest and humble curiosity of why the Church asks celibacy from Her priests, I have no problem getting into the conversation. otherwise, please stick to the forum topic. Liberal media bias against Catholicism.
I also am very much perplexed by your assertion that, "Jesus never married for a reason, that their may be no sin". eh? Are you implying that Jesus Christ, a Divine Person, God, NOT a human person, can sin? I hope not!
Catholicism is supposed to be
Submitted by ForeverOnTheRight on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 9:19am.
Catholicism is supposed to be Christianity is it not? It is supposed to be based on the Bible is it not? Even if I am a "protestant" and you are Catholic, is not the Bible, Thee Word of God something we share in common? Your religion my religion should be the same. God's Word should be our final authority in what we believe, not the Pope, not the Church not a pastor, but Thee Word of God. I know in my post I did not cover every little hole, I did not want to get into some long long post. I could quote many scriptures to back what I believe and why I believe what I do. Can you Biblically base what you believe about the priesthood on The Word of God? Don't quote church doctrine at me, go to the Word and search it out for yourself. Go to the Word without preconceived ideas let God speak to you. I want to know the Truth of His Word, I go to His Word and expect Him to reveal Himself and His Truth. I am not going to get into a lengthy debate about theology with you, I don't think that is what God would want.
ForeverOnTheRight, I am not
Submitted by Liberallies on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 1:02pm.
ForeverOnTheRight,
I am not here to get into a fight about religion. I would ask that you leave the Roman Catholic Church alone since you clearly know very little about Her and Her teachings.
Why does it matter to you so much what the Roman Catholic Church teaches? Are you a Roman Catholic, a practicing Roman Catholic? If you want to have an honest disccusion, with an honest and humbe curiosity about the Church, I have zero problem exchaning PMs on it. Otherwise, leave it alone.
and yes, I can back up what the Church teaches on the priesthood with the Bible.
and sorry I care very much what the Church teaches, Her theology, Roman Catholic Church Doctrine since this comes directly from God.
I would ask you to do the same, go to God without preconceived ideas, which you have clearly proven you have.
And are you saying that you,that only Protestants can be inspired by the Holy Spirit and tell others about the Bible and what it teaches, but the Pope can't be inspired, Bishops, priests can't be inspired by the Holy Spirit and teach it?
and don't get me started on the huge error of Sola Scriptura which can be easily proven wrong.
I am not here to get into a fight about religion, but you along with a few others are intent on starting one. If you want to have a respectful exchange on Christian religions via PMs go for it. Otherwise, don't bother replying to this here on the forum because I won't get into it. These never end well.
Liberallies, he was
Submitted by motherbelt on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 1:20pm.
Liberallies, he was responding to my comment, and I agree with you, these never end well. That's why I said I don't usually get involved.
But this guy said that
Jesus never married for a reason, that their may be no opportunity for sin
And he's still not explaining what he meant by that.
I wouldn't put a lot of faith in his interpretation of scripture.
And I, like you, am always amazed at the number of non-Catholics who feel compelled to "correct" the Church.
Mothebelt, Well said!! and
Submitted by Liberallies on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 1:25pm.
Mothebelt,
Well said!!
and yes, his "Jesus never married for a reason..." comment is way out there.
motherbelt
Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 1:30pm.
No kidding about "never ending well".
It never ceases to amaze me that the non-Mormons will bash the Mormons here, telling them all about their doctrines, and the same for the non-Catholics doing the Catholic bashing.
I hate it all. I've never publicly discussed my beliefs, here, but I have objected vociferously to the bashing. Remember that loon Debra JM SMith?
Quite frankly, if I wanted an informed opinion on something specific regarding Catholicism, I'd ask a practicing Catholic, and preferably one who had been schooled by the Jesuits, a la KC Mulville. Why the "nons" here are always making waves is beyond me. It's like me asking you to prove I don't have blonde hair. It can't be done with the information at hand.
Anyway....carry on in your usual polite discussion, you and others do a service by keeping it civil. And informative.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Blonde, Yeap, Mormons and
Submitted by Liberallies on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 2:00pm.
Blonde,
Yeap, Mormons and Catholics are attacked on NB by quite a few. Why? who knows. It gets old. In the past, I use to get into it a lot more, but I have realized it is pointless.
I just find it sad that NB attempted to show Liberal bias against a Christian religion, Catholicism on this occasion, and unfortunately some took it as an opportunity to start lecturing Catholics. Of course, these are the same people that if they feel lectured, they become defensive quite fast.
The forum is about Liberal bias against the Roman Catholic Church which in fact is easily translated to the huge bias the Liberal media has against Christianity, at least all Christian denominations that they feel are too conservative, as a whole.
and well said, if you want information about Catholicism, ask a well informed, well taught practicing Roman Catholic. Not the minister of a protestant church, not an atheist, not someone that has an obvious bias against the Roman Catholic Church.
nice to see you around.
"and yes, I can back up what
Submitted by ForeverOnTheRight on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 6:55pm.
"and yes, I can back up what the Church teaches on the priesthood with the Bible." OK give me the scriptures.
"which you have clearly proven you have." I fear you say that because what I believe does not agree with the Roman Catholic Church who's doctrine, "comes directly from God." Wow does that drip with pride and arrogance! I fear you believe that the RCC has a direct pipeline to God and all others are in error, and the RCC cannot possibly be in error period. I am I right? I hope I am not. I have know other Catholics who think this way. I am frankly offended by your pride and arrogance.
My final authority is not any man like the Pope, the RCC, a "protestant" church or even my pastor it is the Word of God that is inspired by Him through the Holy Spirit. If you or anyone can prove from scriptures that I am wrong in what I believe I will change what I believe. But i will not conform to doctrines and traditions of men. I have had others who correctly used the Bible correct me and I have changed my mind. BTW, I do not speak for all protestants, I would not pretend to, just myself.
ForeverOnTheRight , A, here
Submitted by Liberallies on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 7:31pm.
ForeverOnTheRight ,
A, here we go. You couldn't stay away.
Look, ForeverOnTheRight, I am sure you are a great guy. I have zero doubt that you love Jesus Christ and God and that you practice your particular Faith with a lot of passion and love.
Unlike you, none of the Roman Catholics on NB came into this forum attacking your particular set of beliefs and how you have chosen to worship God. I would ask that you do the same.
For the Bible passages that you ask for, please see the links I posted in this forum in earlier posts addressed to MightyMouth and others. It is all there.
My pride wants me to get into it with you, but I won't. Protestant vs. Catholic forums go nowhere fast. I will let someone else do it. If you are interested in teachings of the Church, I would urge you to look up Mr. Scott Hahn and see how he converted to Catholicism. He was a strict and militant Sola Scriptura believer who attacked Catholicism. However, the more he learned about Catholicism, the more he realized how wrong protestant christians are and how Right THE Roman Catholic Church is.
Once again, look up Scott Hahn. he has a great conversation story from protestant to Roman Catholic. Here is a link, http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Scott+Hahn+and+the+Pope&aq=f, to his talks on the Pope and how it is based on the Bible. By the way, no practicing Roman Catholic believes that the Pope, a mere human, is the final authority when it comes to the Word of God. God is the final authority and this is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
Have a great day and remember, despite our difference, at the end of the day, we are both children of God who know Jesus Christ is the path, the only path, to Salvation.
As a non-Christian (I'm
Submitted by redfish on Wed, 04/20/2011 - 11:47am.
As a non-Christian (I'm jewish), I would avoid a scriptural answer and give a layman's explanation --
Catholic priests don't marry because part of their job is to function as a moral example so that they can can give out advice to people who are distressed. It's a trust issue --- if you can't handle your own lust and keep it under check, how are you going to instruct members of your flock how to deal with theirs?
There's a really misinformed notion, in my view, that being celibate is hard. It's not -- it just takes commitment. You have to decide to be celibate, and if you really want to, you won't have any problem at all.
And in any case a priests decides that type of commitment not for him, that's fine. The church just expects him to leave the priesthood and join the laity. He can marry, he just can no longer function in his job as a priest.
Protestants have a different view on what the role of the pastor should be. Which I think is fine, but people who want to change Catholicism into being another version of Protestantism (arguing that priests should marry) in my view should just join a Protestant sect.