After speaking against the death tax last week, "View" co-host Whoopi Goldberg said "people are very annoyed" with her and reliably left Joy Behar attacked with her pro-tax liberal spin. The December 12 edition of "The View" featured country star and politically conservative guest co-host Sara Evans, who also spoke out against the death tax.
Similar to her previous statement on the issue, Goldberg said "I just feel like...I’ve worked very hard...this is something I want to give to my kid and she should be able to accept it." After Whoopi called it a "double tax" Sara Evans exclaimed "I totally agree with you!"
Joy Behar, in using the typical left wing class warfare propaganda claimed that "the very, very rich, not only don’t have to pay it, but get tax cuts." As she has done before, Behar gets her facts wrong. In 2005, the top one percent (those making $364,657 or more) paid 39.4 percent, but earned only 21.2 percent of the wealth.
Whoopi Goldberg did call out Joy Behar exclaiming that the wealthiest Americans are "pay ing 50 percent of their income. It’s not like they’re not paying."
Video (50 secs): Windows Media (1.55 MB) or MP3 audio (384 kB).
The entire transcript is below.
WHOOPI GOLDBERG: So maybe I shouldn’t bring up the fact that people are very annoyed with me.
JOY BEHAR: Why are they annoyed with you?
GOLDBERG: Well, they’re annoyed with me because I said that I thought it was really awful that if I left my daughter and my grand kids my stuff when I died, that I was annoyed that they would have to pay taxes on something I’ve already paid taxes on. Well, tell! People lost their minds!
BEHAR: Money!
SHERRI SHEPHERD: I agree with you!
GOLDBERG: Yeah, you know, I just feel like, you know, I’ve worked really hard, my, this is something I want to give to my kid, and she should be able to accept it.
SHEPHERD: You pay tax on everything.
SARA EVANS: You paid taxes on it already!
GOLDBERG: See, I just feel like that’s double taxing. People keep saying to me it’s not. But it is! It is!
EVANS: I totally agree with you!
GOLDBERG: No one can explain it.
[applause]
EVANS: I totally agree with you.
GOLDBERG: But Joy says, Joy said-
EVANS: Because I wanted to go back to what you said about how-
BEHAR: What did I say?
EVANS: Well, you said "I mean, what about Bill Gates, should he just be able to give his children all of that money?" And I say yes, absolutely!
BEHAR: Well, I don’t think that- I think you should have a cap. You know, it’s like when I sell a piece of property, if I make more than $250,000 on it, I have to pay 20 percent capital gains on my profits. Well, a lot of the money that we make over our lives have been profits, and those are capital gains again.
GOLDBERG: They tax it!
BEHAR: Well, but, but the other thing about it, first of all, let me just tell you that in the year 2010, this law will be repealed for just that one year. So everybody who’s planning to die, that’s the year to do it. [laughter] 2010 because in 2011 it goes back to the death tax as you call it. Isn’t that strange?
GOLDBERG: It’s very strange to me.
BEHAR: So 2010 is the year.
GOLDBERG: But I know why people do it, because they know that people are always going to die. They know people are going to continue to die. They are never going to be able to stop that no matter how many pills they take. It will never happen.
BEHAR: Your point is very well taken. I mean, you know, you’re the first person in your family to even have an inheritance to give. And I am too in my family. I never inherited any money. So everything I have, I made myself. But there are people who have family money for generation after generation and they maintain generous power in this country. Those people have to cough it up. Why do middle class people have to pay all of this tax and the very, very rich, not only don’t have to pay it, but get tax cuts?
GOLDBERG: They do have to pay it!
[applause]
BEHAR: It’s outrageous. See, now they’re clapping for that point.
GOLDBERG: Which, which people are you talking about?
BEHAR: I’m talking about the very rich and wealthy people in the country. People who own- five percent of the people in this country own 98 percent of the wealth!
GOLDBERG: Wait a minute! Wait a minute! They paid the most amount of tax.
BEHAR: Listen to my points here.
GOLDBERG: I did!
BEHAR: Five percent-
GOLDBERG: Yeah?
BEHAR: -of the wealthiest people own 90 perce- eight percent of the wealth in this country.
GOLDBERG: But that’s different from what you’re talking about. You’re saying that they should not get the tax breaks, but I’m saying they’re paying 50 percent of their income. It’s not like they’re not paying.
BEHAR: There should be a cap. There should be a cap on it. That’s all, a cap.
GOLDBERG: On the-
BEHAR: Look, if you make a- right now. If you die and you’re worth $2 million, you’re exempt.
GOLDBERG: Right, I got you.
BEHAR: Then, the inheritor is exempt. Above $2 million than you have to pay 45 percent I believe is what-
EVANS: How depressing!
BEHAR: Except in 2010, then you pay nothing.
GOLDBERG: It’s, it’s too much.
EVANS: It’s too much. It’s too much.
GOLDBERG: But do you know what else is too much?
BEHAR: But if you’re worth billions and billions of dollars, why should you just pass that along?
GOLDBERG: Because you made!
EVANS: You made it and you paid taxes on it already.
BEHAR: A lot of what you made, you made yourself.
GOLDBERG: But wait a minute. What about Bill Gates? Bill Gates earned his money!
BEHAR: Bill Gates gives a lot of his money away.
GOLDBERG: Okay, so why should he be penalized for the people don’t?
BEHAR: He gets tax breaks on all of the money he gives away. Ask Barbara, she told you that yesterday.
GOLDBERG: 50 percent, he is taxed 50 percent of his income! Every, every couple of quarters he is taxed 50 percent!
SHEPHERD: But do you think he gets a lot of tax breaks?
GOLDBERG: It’s not enough! It’s not enough!
BEHAR: Enough is enough!
GOLDBERG: It’s not enough!
—Justin McCarthy is a news analyst at Media Research Center.















Comments Policy
Oh. My. Gosh.
December 12, 2007 - 14:46 ET by motherbeltOh. My. Gosh.
Behar says (emphasis added)
But there are people who have family money for generation after generation and they maintain generous power in this country. Those people have to cough it up.
and
But if you’re worth billions and billions of dollars, why should you just pass that along?
This just boggles the mind.
I'm verklempt.
One wonders...
December 12, 2007 - 14:47 ET by sarcasmoHow Ms. Behar feels about Kennedy-family offshore holdings...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
BEHAR...
December 12, 2007 - 15:40 ET by danybhoyThe world will never know how she would feel about the Kennedy's family trust in FIJI, her head is jammed up her @$$ so far she would'nt understand the question. The Kennedy's should never, ever, tell the American people how much they should pay in taxes because so much of their money is out of the reach of the IRS.
I said earlier in a different thread, that Mika was trying hard to be the dumbest woman in TV news, Behar might be the dumbest woman on TV in general. Rosie may have gotten all of the headlines before she left The View, but Behar has always been a moron. Rosie is dumb, but I also believe she has mental issues, Behar is a dumb as hell, but she seems to enjoy it too much to care because it brings her some attention. That's all she wants.
"Some of us are wise, some of us are otherwise" Mark Levin
Don't Liberals think if one
December 12, 2007 - 14:51 ET by Chris NormanDon't Liberals think if some people have billions - or millions - or hundreds of thousands of dollars, they must have come by it by stealing it from the poor people who it really belongs to? They might make an exception for those millionaires in Hollywood. It's ironic that, after seeing several wastes of time in the theatres, I think they may be guilty of embezzling my money.
Champagne socialist
December 12, 2007 - 14:50 ET by dboBehar: " But rich people shouldn't have the same rights as everybody else. They should be production tools for the government to rape. Yeah, that's it, like chattel. Tax, tax, tax... rape , rape, rape. Like widget's. You know like pillage, plunder, suck dry..."
I can't believe it
December 12, 2007 - 14:52 ET by Adam_MEI'm agreeing with Whoopi Goldberg on something.
Well, like with most
December 12, 2007 - 14:57 ET by Chris NormanWell, like with most liberals, she's generous only with other people's money...
Your post reminds me...
December 12, 2007 - 18:51 ET by timothe...of that story about how Sioux Falls people gave twice as much as San Francisco people. http://www.abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1
Liberals care....phooey!
Me too. But you and I are
December 12, 2007 - 15:01 ET by motherbeltMe too. But you and I are not the ones who've moved.
Goldberg's conversion is a financial variation of "A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged."
Oh my. I love when
December 12, 2007 - 15:04 ET by SmartypantsOh my. I love when brainiacs like Joy Behar pull stats out of---well, you know where they pull them out of--like 5% of the people own 98% of the wealth. The frustrating part is that they are rarely, if ever, called on their facts. Also, embedded in her weak argument is the idea that, somehow, the government magically knows how to better-spend some billionaire's money than that person's heirs would. Ultimately, this is all about punishing the wealthy and has little to do with "the common good". People like Behar screech over the idea that too much money is placed in the hands of a few people, yet they are completely willing to turn that money over to "a few" bureaucrats in Washington, D.C. What's the difference?
Here are a couple of quick
December 12, 2007 - 18:09 ET by motherbeltHere are a couple of quick stats from the Tax Foundation
Which Joy could find if she would take Rosie's advice and "Google it!"
The top 5% own just over half the wealth, not 98%.
However, in taxes paid (figures from 2005):
The top 1% earned 21% of all income, but paid 39% of all taxes
and
The top 5% earned 35% of all income, but paid 59% of all taxes.
I imagine Joy Behar thinks this is fair, because to liberals, the answer to "How much tax should wealthy Americans pay?" the answer is always "More."
JasonC, down below, questions why anyone treats these idiots as having anything to say, or as media bias.
Well, because there are some uniformed people in this country who actually think of The View as a News program, or at the very least, "current events." Joy Behar and others toss out these "statistics" that they pull out....and there is no one there to challenge them with actual numbers, so the uninformed take it as fact.
And the networks know this, and they don't care. They use the Jon Stewart defense...Hey, it's a fake news program!! And the faulty information gets disseminated over and over again by people who can't tell the difference between four women kaffe-klatching over the news, and an actual news program.
LOL Whoopie makes sense
December 12, 2007 - 15:12 ET by candanceAmazing how hard work and scrapping for every dollar you earn suddenly makes people begrudge extra taxes. Whoopie is in that place where she has the fortune, she's the one being hit to "save the poor" and she's thinking twice about playing politics with her own money.
This is Exhibit A of why Democrats want to keep people poor. If you keep them unhappy and jealous of "those rich people" they'll gladly vote to raise more taxes, never stopping to wonder exactly what those rich people did to deserve it or exactly how the government has the right to punish them.
Whoopie has shown she's at least somewhat capable of thinking for herself while Joy comes off as a DNC kool aid drinker whining about old money Republicans.
It seems that Joyless Behar
December 12, 2007 - 15:42 ET by MikeBIt seems that Joyless Behar thinks that all Republicans are rich, and all Democrats are poor.
Let's take a look at some politicians and their (minimum) net worth(in 2005), shall we? In descending order of net worth here are (rounded to the nearest million dollars):
Herb Kohl (D- Wis.) $219 million
Henry M. Paulson (prob. R) $191 million
Jane Harmon (D-Cal.) $169 million
John Kerry (D-Mass.) $166 million
Darrell Issa (R-Cal.) $136 million
Jay Rockefellar (D-WV) $ 78 million
Of the 10 richest members of Congress, 6 of them are Democrats. And, the list does not include wealthy contributors like George Soros or Warren Buffet or Bill Gates, or wealthy former politician scam artists like Al Gore, or wealthy unindicted, unconvicted felons like Bill and Hillary Clinton (cattle futures, anyone?), or wealthy parasites like Rob (Meathead) Reiner, or many of the others of the Hollyweird crowd on the left coast.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
And it looks to me like the
December 12, 2007 - 15:54 ET by fitzfongAnd it looks to me like the only self-made millionaires on this list are Republican. Hmmm.
If you keep them unhappy
December 12, 2007 - 19:04 ET by motherbeltIf you keep them unhappy and jealous of "those rich people" they'll gladly vote to raise more taxes,
candance, that is part of what Neal Boortz calls "the Democrats' Secret Plan for America."
Namely, get most Americans off the taxpayer rolls, shifting more and more of the burden to the top few. Then there will be no problem getting Congress to vote for more tax increases, because most of their constituents won't be paying them, and everyone loves to see the "rich" getting it in the neck.
yay mother
December 12, 2007 - 20:13 ET by candanceI have to tell you, since I started reading political blogs it's been quite an experience. To have a feeling about something, and then to find someone in the media who articulates it better, that helps me shape my understanding of the world.
In a perfect world, Joy
December 12, 2007 - 15:23 ET by fitzfongIn a perfect world, Joy Blowhard wouldn't have any money to pass down to her survivors. She's a fat, carpy, whiny, unfunny, untalented "comedienne". But this is America, and she managed to find her niche, so her family is entitled to inherit her gains...no matter how ill-gotten.
As for Whoopi...even a broken watch is right twice a day.
Just a minor quibble, but
December 12, 2007 - 16:00 ET by JasonCJust a minor quibble, but why is this site so awash in stories about liberal bias on The View? That show is a joke! I mean I'm as liberal as anyone on there, but it's nothing but overcaffeinated, overpaid women clucking their ill-formed opinions at each other. Does anyone regard them as a serious form of political discourse? I understand what this site does, but there are an awful lot of View stories. Is it just because they're such easy targets? Doesn't it suck for you guys to have to watch it as frequently as you must in order to dig up these snippets of lunacy? It's all very bizarre.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Does anyone regard them as
December 12, 2007 - 16:30 ET by motherbeltDoes anyone regard them as a serious form of political discourse? -JasonC
Yes, Jason, not the ones who come here, but a lot of people do. See my response above to Smartypants...I didn't want to put it in two places.
JasonC
December 12, 2007 - 16:36 ET by Airforce_5_OSo you’re saying that a double tax is a minor quibble? You miss the point all together. Taxing a person twice because they have been successful is asinine at best.
This shows the lack of common sense by Behar. The View goes out to millions on woman so it does have an impact therefore needs to be challenged on its liberal content.
“THERE COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE 72 VIRGINS AWAITING THEM IN HEAVEN – BECAUSE AS OUR HYMN SAYS “THE STREETS ARE GUARDED BY UNITED STATES MARINES!” US Marine, Iraq
Clucking?
December 12, 2007 - 16:50 ET by well99Oh like this
http://www.youtube.c...
Haveing the View as a blog topic shows the versatility of NB.To just show the msm and their bias would be discrimination.This is a equal opportunity site.
What's a matter JasonC...don't you recognize Hillary supporters
December 12, 2007 - 16:57 ET by JayTeeJason, don't you recognize your own Democratic party members from the View, and the Audience that watches and believes what they have to say ?
You may NOT be just as "As Liberal" as anyone else, you may be considered "right" of the View........just how far right is the Question. Maybe you're converting from the Dark side to the NB side ?
What good is a Free Press, if it is a False Press ? David Foote GoE
No no, I'm well left of the
December 13, 2007 - 11:36 ET by JasonCNo no, I'm well left of the View, I'm sure, I just can't imagine taking them seriously.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Are you left of Joy Jasonc?
December 13, 2007 - 12:32 ET by well99Or the view as a whole?Whoopie I consider a liberal..Joy is a leftist.Their is a difference.IMHO.Barbie is a confused liberal.Sherry I would say is more conservative on most issues.
I've never really watched a
December 13, 2007 - 12:35 ET by JasonCI've never really watched a whole show. I always thought The View was just one of those chirpy morning talk shows until I started seeing it show up here. But I'm pretty radical, I would guess more so than anyone with a mainstream TV show. I guess you'd have to ask me some specific ideological questions to compare me to her.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Explained This The Other Day
December 12, 2007 - 17:34 ET by Del DolemonteSince "The View" intentionally chooses to prominently feature news stories as a major portion of its content, and since one of its hosts (who also apparently owns a piece of the show) is a longtime prominent member of ABC News, it's a legitimate target.
but it's nothing but
December 12, 2007 - 21:10 ET by Jack BauerBy definition, most liberal opinion is ill-informed.
And nothing can suck as much as the army of Media Matters trolls who listen and transcribe years of conservative talk radio shows.
I mean these people literally foam at the mouth at the thought of the hated Rush Limbaugh, yet they listen. Talk about weird.
My only consolation is the thought of how many must stroke out thanks to Hannity, Rush, Lee Rodgers.
Always a paragon of good
December 13, 2007 - 11:39 ET by JasonCAlways a paragon of good taste Jack....
I'm just curious as to how liberal opinion is "by definition" ill-formed. I mean if you had said "by the standards of paranoid conservatives who can't turn on their TV without feeling sopsilistically affronted by yet another anti-conservative spectacle" I'd concede; but why by definition?
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Liberalism is a lazy and
December 13, 2007 - 14:31 ET by fitzfongLiberalism is a lazy and gutless choice. It involves surrendering one's autonomy to an "advocate" bureaucracy, simply because one can't be bothered to protect and advance oneself. It involves allowing trial lawyers, legislators and "civic leaders" to speak for you as a collective because, as an individual, you can't be saved from yourself. It involves following bitter college professors (who work maybe 6 hours a week, achieve lifetime employment through tenure and make relatively large salaries but still manage not to have a pot to piss in because they lack financial discipline) like a flock of sheep simply because you're a captive audience fully reliant on a grade and a degree. It involves shifting your health care burden on others because you won't prioritize between a need (your health) and your desire (a plasma TV). It involves joining a labor union to negotiate the terms of your employment where you are only as strong as your weakest link. Then when your new contract offer doesn't meet the approval of the union leaders, the union releases their jack-booted thugs to intimidate and to involve the public in their private labor dispute. And, last, but not least, liberalism involves claiming to love this country while doing everything possible to destroy it. Liberals may claim that they love the country and support the troops, but these are empty slogans. Sure, liberals like being in the United States. Many were born here and others really like the weather and their physical surroundings, but they don't like the country as it exists. Liberals are to the United States what squatters are to an apartment building...they like where they are, and they don't want to be bothered moving, but they have no respect for private property, they expect others to subsidize their existence there and they want to have their wills enforced on others by government (as if they had a financial stake in it to begin with). Pretty cowardly, overall.
Wow, feel better? "He
December 13, 2007 - 14:57 ET by JasonCWow, feel better?
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
I agreed with everything he said...
December 13, 2007 - 15:04 ET by MightyMouthexcept : "Pretty cowardly, overall."
I would have said "Pretty pathetic, overall. "
Other than that, spot on fitz.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Wow, feel better? Or, in
December 13, 2007 - 15:12 ET by fitzfongWow, feel better?
Or, in other words, you've got nothing.
Oooooh, fightin' words!
December 13, 2007 - 15:17 ET by JasonCOooooh, fightin' words! If your post wasn't a sad little laundry list of angry, baseless stereotypes I might bother to argue with it.
I'll pick my favorite: you think people who can't afford health insurance are in that situation because their out fulfilling their duty to but name brand electronics? That is as hateful as it is idiotic. Do you know what health insurance costs a person who doesn't get it through their job? Never mind a whole family? There are surely some people out there who don't budget well, but you're stating that all those who are uninsured got themselves into that situation? I thought Reagan died, yet here I am having a message board argument with him...
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
If your post wasn't a sad
December 13, 2007 - 16:13 ET by fitzfongIf your post wasn't a sad little laundry list of angry, baseless stereotypes I might bother to argue with it.
Dude, if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. Your post offers little beyond the standard predictable, ignorant, tortured Marxist cliches and platitudes. To wit: That is as hateful as it is idiotic. Any time a liberal like yourself lacks the intellectual abilities to argue a case on its merits, said liberal will toss out some lame ad hominem like "hateful" in an attempt to end the argument off balance. Grow up, Jason, you impress no one. The fact that I don't follow the Marxist principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" with regard to health care does not make me hateful. I believe that when the government gets so heavily involved in the operation of the economy, it tends to make things worse for everybody. We get a health care system that operates like the DMV with everyone waiting in long lines to get disinterested and substandard service. Then, when that system fails, the only "solution" government comes up with is "send us more money" to do the same poor job. And, when the extra money is no longer forthcoming, government starts rationing because the "free" healthcare we receive has covered so many hangnails and common colds, it can no longer afford to treat cancer patients. Then government starts to dictate how we can live our lives...what we can and can't eat or drink, how much we must exercise and how we may raise our children. And why would anyone want to become a doctor in a socialized system? It's expensive enough with student loans and malpractice insurance to get into practice to begin with. Couple that with the infinite power a socialized system will give to the trial lawyers like John Edwards to bankrupt medical practitioners by playing class envy games with complicit juries, and what, tell me, will be the incentive for someone to become a doctor? So, you have less doctors, more patients, rationing, needless waiting and overreaching, overbearing government interference. What again is the upside? Rush Limbaugh stated it best when he defined the goals of liberalism as "spreading misery equally". In other words, you don't make the poor rich by making the rich poor.
Oh, and thank you for the Reagan comparison...I'll wear that one with pride.
more gibberish. I wasn't
December 13, 2007 - 16:31 ET by JasonCmore gibberish. I wasn't defending what you portray as a healthcare doomsday scenario, I was arguing against your characterization of poor people who can't afford healthcare as being that position by their own stupidity.
Feel free to take a Reagan comparison with pride, if telling the lower-class that they're basically f---ed and you couldn't care less is something to be proud of.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
As usual, you miss the
December 13, 2007 - 16:58 ET by fitzfongAs usual, you miss the point. Whether or not that's intentional, only you can tell. The fact is that the health care "system" you would defend would cause such a "doomsday scenario". It's a system that's as dangerous as it is naive. Rather than claiming some sort of moral high ground that you have not earned, tell me, what exactly are you doing for the poor besides spitting out a bunch of dishonest cliches about how conservatives "hate them". The difference between a liberal and a conservative is that conservatives understand that market capitalism is the ONLY way to advance the lots of rich AND poor (and middle class)...liberals pretend to care about the poor and middle class while setting up systems to keep the poor dependent on them. That, and a little bit of force is what keeps the likes of Castro, Chavez and other socialist dictators in power...much to the detriment of the poor they claim to care about.
I missed what point? Where
December 13, 2007 - 18:03 ET by JasonCI missed what point? Where did I defend the health care system that you're railing against? Convenient that you seem to think only the likes of Castro have such programs by the way...Sweden has universal healthcare and isn't exactly a jackbooted totalitarian state.
The only point of contention that I have brought up is your contention that the poor are poor because of their own stupidity and inability to refrain from blowing money on crap nobody needs. I'm sure you just said it in the heat of anger that came with recycling every talking point Rush or Hannity has ever made w/r/t the horrors of liberalism, but I still don't see you distancing yourself from it.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
stop fighting over poor people
December 13, 2007 - 18:22 ET by candanceAs for Sweden's fabulous health care system, even they rely on private business to help them.
And as for Rush and Sean attacking poor people, I can assure you I know plenty of poor people who don't feel that way. Americans whine about the cost of gas and healthcare, but the cell phone/ entertainment/ retail markets seem to be no problem for them. This infects middle classers just as bad as working class.
Please stop spreading this myth that Republicans hate poor people. I can bring up about 100 of my friends who disagree.
Not what I was doing
December 13, 2007 - 18:34 ET by JasonCNot what I was doing Candace. I was calling out what's-his-name on a blatant and unequivocal claim that poor people's lot is their own fault. As for the Rush/Hannity reference I was referring to the entire post from which it came, a laundry list of anti-liberal stereotypes.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
It's interesting when
December 13, 2007 - 18:46 ET by fitzfongIt's interesting when someone with socialist sympathies sets the likes of Castro aside and puts Sweden's system up on a pedestal. Have you ever been to Sweden? Do you have any concept of how the system works there? Would you sacrifice every opportunity you have here to get taxed at the level Swedes do? If so, why are you still here? Shouldn't you be jetting off to that socialist utopia rather than sitting around here in hopeful expectation that Sweden will come to you? By the way, if the system is so great there and so terrible here, why are people doing everything imaginable to emigrate to this country and not so much to that one? And if Sweden does a better job of keeping immigrants out than we do, does that not suggest that Sweden's beloved system is unable to sustain the shock to itself that added beneficiaries would most certainly bring?
Look, kid, instead of trying to hijack the argument by dishonestly putting words in my mouth, try engaging in the facts. The Hannity/Limbaugh talking point charge is a lame non sequitur designed to cover up your intellectual deficiencies, so I'll let your breathtaking ignorance slide. But I did not say that the "poor are poor because of their own stupidity and inability to refrain from blowing money on crap nobody needs"...I suggested that it is the responsibility of the individual to look after his or her own needs first. It is not my obligation (nor is it that of anyone else) to work hard and make a living simply to subsidize others who, whether they work hard or not, can't make ends meet. I have a family to raise, and I have every right to make certain that my efforts meet their needs before anything else. If, as an individual, I have the means and choose to give to those in need, fine. But the government has no right to confiscate what I have earned through my own efforts to redistribute it to someone else. It's NOT YOUR MONEY, Jason. Quit acting like it is.
I wish I could refrain from
December 13, 2007 - 20:19 ET by JasonCI wish I could refrain from paying taxes because I don't approve of it being used to finance war in Iraq. But I can't.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
OK. That's nice
December 13, 2007 - 21:48 ET by fitzfongOK. That's nice rhetoric. Gee, I haven't heard that one before. What was it you said about talking points? But, at least you can be thankful that George Bush's tax cuts have provided record revenues to the treasury...now less of the tax burden to support the war is yours. If only my tax money wasn't going to fund garbage like the NEA, Henry Waxman's posturing investigations, this week's ribbon cutting ceremony to slap Robert Byrd's name on another government building and Nancy Pelosi's air travel and flower expenditures.
I gotta agree with fitzfong here, Jay
December 13, 2007 - 23:47 ET by timotheHe stated clearly why universal health care won't work and you were not able to respond with any type of logical retort.
Rush says that's the inherent problem with liberals. They make their policy decisions on feeling rather than logic. That works on Dr. Phil but it's no way to run a country. If you want any respect from me, you'll have to demonstrate the ability to logically defend universal health care.
To me, it's very very simple. The more bureaucracy you add to a situation, the more expensive and less efficient the solution.
A perfect example of this is our last few natural disasters. Katrina turned out to be very problematic in New Orleans because the Federal Government could not respond in time and the local government did not have the foresight to evacuate those who couldn't leave of their own accord before the storm hit. A lot of libs will blame Bush for the poor response, but the "poor" response is the product of a bloated government too big to communicate effectively with itself.
On the other hand, Katrina in Mississippi didn't cause the same casualties because the local government was much more effective there and they didn't have to rely on the Federal Government. Same with the recent hurricanes in Florida and the wildfires in California.
It is a core conservative principle to reduce the size of the Federal Government by passing power down to the states. If there is a healthcare problem in this nation and the government really has to get involved to make sure everyone is covered (I don't believe that, BTW), then why not let the states decide who needs to be covered and the most cost effective way to do so?
The answer? Because Universal Health Care is not about compassion for those not covered. It is about the government having control over everyone.
A well written treatise
December 14, 2007 - 11:51 ET by JasonCA well written treatise Timothe. All good points. But if you look back over the thread you'll see that I am not advocating universal healthcare. That's just something Fitzy is projecting onto me because I rolled my eyes at his list of hysterical anti-liberal stereotypes.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Soooooo....
December 15, 2007 - 13:12 ET by acumenBut if you look back over the thread you'll see that I am not advocating universal healthcare.
In an effort to understand your position clearly - So then you are against US government provided (read tax payer funded) healthcare?
This isn't a trick question so feel free to throw in a yes or no with your answer if you care to reply. Just curious...
If you'll scroll down to my
December 15, 2007 - 14:03 ET by JasonCIf you'll scroll down to my latest reply to Fitz, you will see that no, I am not against it. I do, however, think it can be instituted on different levels and that it is not a reductive choice between a totalitarian state (which happens to have UHC) or a free market system in which those below a certain income level are basically screwed.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Yes, rhetoric always gets a
December 14, 2007 - 12:02 ET by JasonCYes, rhetoric always gets a bad rap, but my brief post was "rhetoric" indeed, more specifically a reductio ad absurdum argument concerning your hissy fit about taxable income being akin to stealing, no one has any right to make you pay for others' healthcare, especially those who are too ignorant to refrain from purchasing plasma television sets. Here's how it works: 1) You make the claim that I just summarized. 2) I make a parallel argument that if that's the case, I shouldn't have to have my tax dollars "stolen" to finance a war I have been against from Day One. 3) Such an argument is, indeed, somewhat ludicrous. 4) This progression of statements is meant to show that the original line of reasoning, that that tax money is "yours" and shouldn't be used by anyone else lest they be stealing, is absurd and selective; exemplia gratia, you hold that principle regarding tax money only when it applies to your own ideological interests.
QED.
The funniest part about all this is that I have yet to pose an argument in favor of universal healthcare. You just keep going in guns blazing because you assume every liberal is a carbon copy of your expulsive little list from yesterday.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
As you lack either the
December 14, 2007 - 16:07 ET by fitzfongAs you lack either the honesty or the intelligence (or both) to give a true account of how this discussion has played out so far, allow me to recap. It started with your rhethorical (there's that word again) question to Jack Bauer regarding how liberalism is "ill-informed". As your question was rhetorical in nature, I assumed that it was an invitation for any NB member to join the discussion. So I accepted your challenge, not that it was much of a challenge, to explain how liberalism is ill-informed. I proceeded to give you a coherent, comprehensive explanation of why liberalism is an intellectually (not to mention economically, morally, practically, etc.) lazy and bankrupt philosophy. And, as is typical of liberals, you failed to effectively organize the facts of the argument I made and cynically chalked it up as an angry rant. Why? Not because it was an angry rant. It was a well organized summary from soup to nuts (or, in this case from health care to the war on terror) of what is wrong with liberalism. Faced with those points, yet painfully unable to construct an effective counter-argument, you resorted to snide condescension...at which point I accurately claimed that your response exhibited that you had nothing...that you were incapable of refuting my argument. In response, you wrote back admitting your inability to refute my argument (but cloaking it in an "unwillingness to participate on your terms" canard). Cornered, you then chose to seize upon my universal health care point (that's right, you singled out health care for discussion) to make an erroneous, tortured claim that I hate the poor. Do you keep a straight face when you're writing? I never said anything about the poor, but when faced with realities you're incapable of addressing honestly, you inevitably resort to the limp lifeline of class envy (By the way, was that your 50/50 or your poll the audience? I already know that you used your phone a friend to concoct your cute 5 cent Latin phrases overnight.). One thing that had become quite obvious at that point is that you offered no defense of liberalism whatsoever. Not that that should be entirely surprising, as liberalism does not offer solutions. Liberalism doesn't offer cures...it creates diseases and then offers ineffective treatments. Throughout the whole thread, you have inserted comments to the effect that you're not making any arguments about universal healthcare. This whole thread started because you made a lame attempt to pervert my cogent argument about universal healthcare. Then, as if to make yourself even less credible, you trotted out Sweden as a glittering example of how universal healthcare works. Of course, when faced with the prospect of defending your position on the benefits of Sweden's health care system, you ignored the relevant questions I posed to you. What's the matter, are you afraid to address these questions as you know your argument will inevitably fall apart? I suspect that you're an idealist without the first clue about business or economics, and as such, will avoid defending your positions because you lack the understanding of your own ideals. After all, you wouldn't want to expose the frailties of your beliefs to the metaphorical flogging I would inevitably give them. But before I go, please allow me to educate you on how taxes work. The money I earn from employment and investments is my money. The government then charges me taxes on my employment income, my investment income and my property to fund programs (most of which would be done better, cheaper, more efficiently and more effectively by the private sector) to in effect benefit, me, my family, my community and the community at large. When that government comes back to me (as it will if one of your socialist heroes becomes President) and demands more of my income to fund "underfunded" programs...especially when tax cuts have provided record revenues to the Treasury...I have a right to ask why Nancy Pelosi is spending so much taxpayer money on flowers, why Congress is enacting ineffective, job-killing legislation to appease America-hating socialists in the "environmental" movement and why Ted Stevens (a Republican) is grabbing funds to build a bridge to nowhere in Alaska. So, yes, Jason, it is MY MONEY. Look, son, you're in way over your head. Perhaps you should consider going back to the drawing board to absorb some facts so that you can begin constructing some actual arguments for your liberal positions for once. But I suspect you'll find it's more difficult than you may think it is.
Well, pops, I still don't
December 14, 2007 - 17:01 ET by JasonCWell, pops, I still don't see why your Taxation 101 discussion shouldn't apply to me being indignant about MY money being used for the war. I'm not making the claim that I have the right to be indignant about it (though I will bitch here and there), I brought it up to challenge the notion that taxation for any sort of neo-New Deal program is akin to theft. As you conservatives like to say: "If you don't like it, why don't you leave the country?" Your points in this latest post only reiterate that taxation only equals theft when it's for things you don't care for. I don't care for the war, but that doesn't make filling out my 1040 feel like I'm being robbed at gunpoint.
Now to retort your characterization of our charming tete-a-tete thus far. I did indeed ask Bauer to explain how liberalism is "By definition" ill-informed. I'm used to NBers blasting liberalism all the time, but the qualifier "by definition" piqued my curiosity. This led to your laundry list of generalizations about ALL LIBERALS. Apparently including those like me who don't identify as democrat, are perfectly aware that the difference between democratic and republican ideology is slim at best, etc. Taken aback by your generalizations, from which not one concrete example could see the light of day (which lead to my jab about Rush/Hannity), I singled out your phrase "[liberalism] involves shifting your health care burden on others because you
won't prioritize between a need (your health) and your desire (a plasma
TV)" since you saw fit to apply it across the entire spectrum of lower-middle-class humanity (along with your equally well-thought-out generalizations across the entire spectrums of academia, organized labor, &c.).
My reference to Sweden was only to dispel your implication that all instances of socialized medicine lead to a Castroian totalitarian state. Isn't it funny how I STILL haven't defended universal healthcare in this 24-hour-old thread, yet every reply I get seems to think I'm going off like Hillary Clinton circa 1994?
What else, what else...if you'd break your polemics into paragraphs they'd be much easier to follow and respond to...guess that's it for now.
No wait, I love this one: I suspect that you're an idealist without the first clue about business
or economics, and as such, will avoid defending your positions because
you lack the understanding of your own ideals. After all, you wouldn't want to expose the frailties of your beliefs to the metaphorical flogging I would inevitably give them.
First of all, are you sure you mean "metaphorical"? As I said waaaay at the top of this thread, if you want to ask me a question about my ideology, feel free. I'm not going to lay out a bunch of unsubstantiated talking points. My concerns ever since you joined this thread have been 1) Your particular verbal defamation of the uninsured lower-class 2) Your sweeping generalizations about liberalism, taxation/healthcare in particular. I have yet to advance an ideological position myself, you just really seem to want me to have one of the cookie-cutter variety so you can take it down whilst making cracks about my age and life experience (of which you know little). So, I look forward to your reply and will keep my copy of Wheelock's Latin handy.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Holy crap! You pick
December 14, 2007 - 19:36 ET by fitzfongHoly crap! You pick yourself off the mat and attempt to fire back with that? Swing and a miss, pal. If this were a pay-per-view event, I don't know who would have stopped the fight first, the referee or your corner man. I love debunking left-wing fantasies as much as the next guy, but I'm actually starting to pity you for your ignorance. Sure, every baseball player enjoys batting practice, but even they find it tiresome after a while and long to face some actual pitching in a real contest. But if you insist...
I don't expect for you to understand subtle nuance, especially as you can't seem to tell the difference between using existing taxes to support the national defense and demanding an increase in taxes to in effect support the reelection campaigns of incumbent politicians. For instance, why does it fall on the taxpayers of California (or any other state for that matter) to use a frivolous and irresponsible monument to Woodstock to fund the reeclection bid of Chuck Schumer in New York? And no doubt New Yorkers (Floridians, Arkansans, etc.) are footing the bill for the reelection bid of Barbara Boxer for some "bacon" she's "bringing home" to San Francisco. During times like this, there's nothing like a budget battle over war funding to exhibit just some of the things the government could and should do without. Perhaps, instead of bitching about "underfunded" government programs and blaming the gap on the war on terror, Bill Moyers could offer to do with less than the millions he's stolen through public broadcasting over the years. I'm sorry, but there are far more important concerns in this country than whether or not PBS, the National Endowment for the Arts or Planned Parenthood...all resources for the very few...get full funding in this budget. Whether you admit to it or not, the federal government is a bloated, inefficient bureaucracy. Most of what the government does can be, and often is, done better in the private sector. National defense is not the budgetary problem...it's the necessity that permits us to argue over the use of ancillary tax revenues. I'm not thrilled at the idea of paying taxes to support inefficient government entities that pretend to serve the needs of the many yet fail to meet the needs of even the very few. But I'd be a lot less thrilled if I was forced to surrender additional money just to keep some bogus bureaucracies on life support. And I'd imagine you'd feel the same way if you had to fill out anything more complicated than a 1040EZ.
My reference to Sweden was only to dispel your implication that all instances of socialized medicine lead to a Castroian totalitarian state. Isn't it funny how I STILL haven't defended universal healthcare in this 24-hour-old thread.
First of all, you dispelled nothing with your Sweden example. In a previous post, I asked you several relevant questions regarding Sweden's socialized medical system and why it is exemplary...other than it being socialized and not "Castroian". And here's a tip: merely suggesting that it's not "Castroian" is damning it with faint praise. And, frankly, everything you have written to this point is funny...you haven't defended anything, let alone universal health care. But as you so conveniently ignored from my last post, you were the one who first singled out socialized health care as an issue by dishonestly contorting my statement as an indictment on the poor. So, quit obfuscating.
As I said waaaay at the top of this thread, if you want to ask me a question about my ideology, feel free. I'm not going to lay out a bunch of unsubstantiated talking points.
As would be obvious to anyone with at least half a brain reading this thread, I have asked you countless questions about your ideology. That you've chosen not to answer them suggests a lack of confidence in your position. And just whom do you think you're fooling? Your entire thread has been littered with unsubstantiated talking points.
My concerns ever since you joined this thread have been 1) Your particular verbal defamation of the uninsured lower-class 2) Your sweeping generalizations about liberalism, taxation/healthcare in particular.
Let me address this first by thanking you for your "concern". 1) Geez, Jason. Does lying come that easily to you? At what point did "class" come into my statement? If you learned anything from the recent housing crisis, you'd know that people from all walks of life and economic circumstances financially over-extended themselves, spent more money than they were taking in, and reached a financial crisis due to an inability to catch up to their financial commitments. Same can be said for the auto makers who negotiated bad contracts with the UAW and couldn't generate the sales to meet their pre-negotiated salary and pension obligations. And what have they been trying to do now that they can't meet their financial commitments? Of course, pass their burden off on the taxpayers when they could have done a better job of negotiating with the union in the first place. As we've discussed before, government also over-extends itself on pork projects then comes to the taxpayers demanding to be bailed out when there isn't enough money in the Treasury to subsidize their frivolous whims...despite the ever-increasing revenues generated to the Treasury through tax cuts. But once again, you're intellectually lazy, dishonest or both so you seek comfort from the safety of the class envy argument. And I'm not about to accept your blatant distortions at my expense to "advance" your "argument". 2) It's interesting that you accuse me of making sweeping generalizations about liberalism, taxation and health care when you are too cowardly to even attempt to tell me where my assertions are wrong. If you had a leg to stand on, you would point out the perceived deficiencies in my argument rather than making sweeping generalizations about the "sweeping generalizations" I'm supposed to have made. And by the way, this "you don't know anything about me" argument cuts both ways. Seems to me that we've been questioning each other's motivations in equal measure, both on this thread and in the one about Zinn. But it's tad cynical and perverse of you to accuse me of misrepresenting your ideology when you're unwilling to discuss what your ideology is. But suffice it to say that I know enough about you from your, shall we say, "substantively-challenged" posts. So get over yourself, you're not nearly as deep as you seem to think you are. And if you haven't had enough yet, do yourself a favor...come back armed with some facts.
I'm not going to lay out a
December 14, 2007 - 20:24 ET by bretzysdudeI'm not going to lay out a bunch of unsubstantiated talking points.
Um, you already have waaaaaaay back in the thread.
Bretzy: And those talking
December 15, 2007 - 12:34 ET by JasonCBretzy: And those talking points would be......? My point is that I'm uninterested in patching together a laundry list of as many possible items under the heading "Why I hate the ideology that is not my own."
Fitzy: Thank you for instituting paragraph breaks. I'm not being a prick about that, it really does make it easier on the eyes to read a long post.
I didn't say Sweden's healthcare system was exemplary. I didn't even use it as an "example" of anything; I referenced it because you seem to be implying that all universal healthcare systems will inevitably lead to totalitarianism. What's this, the 4th time I've had to explain it? Take any of the other nations that provide healthcare for its citizens regardless of their income; how many are brutal regimes like Castro? (yes, it's a rhetorical question, you don't have to go scrambling to wikipedia).
What you've written about the insult to the uninsured, which is what got me heated in the first place (two days ago now) makes a lot of sense. You can see, I hope, in rereading the original post, why I found it offensive. You've clarified it and I thank you.
I'm still not on board about the tax thing. It strikes me as simple. You're claiming that the issue is new taxes or the raising of taxes for healthcare. But that wouldn't be necessary if we weren't diverting existing taxes to an endeavor in the Middle East, to the tune of almost $100 billion per anum. This is a simple matter of ideology. I would like to have programs in place that allow the poorest citizens of this country to have access to basic care. I find this issue far more compelling than dumping money into Iraq and justifying it in terms of the War on Terror and 9/11 (I also have no interest in debating the merit of this statement; I'm sure you disagree and I know everything you'll say in argument, and you know everything I'll say back; so unless you have a novel argument, let's agree to disagree)
When you call up the police or firefighters, they don't ask for an insurance card first, do they? Because some things a citezenry does have the right to demand its government provide. We can disagree all day long on this, I think its a fundamental part of the social contract; Rousseau would agree; Hobbes would not. It's an ancient point of contention and obviously you and I are doomed to be forever in disagreement.
Anyway, I still find your disdain for academia and labor irritating and reductive, but again, this thread is getting tiresome and too-far-to-the-righthand-side-of-the-page and is suddenly attracting buzzards.
I apologize for attacking you on the plasma TV issue, I understand now.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Jason, Thank you for
December 15, 2007 - 20:02 ET by fitzfongJason,
Thank you for apologizing about the plasma TV issue. A lesser person would have tied himself up in knots just to maintain the position that I have disdain for the poor. I'm a pretty average guy who's had a taste of both ends of the economic spectrum plus the middle, so I know better than to take anyone's economic circumstances lightly. And I apologize to you for letting my temper get the best of me. It manifested itself in some condescending statements about you that were unfair, and I regret making those statements.
No doubt, we'll have to agree to disagree on certain issues, as the discussion becomes circular in nature. My appreciation of Ronald Reagan comes largely from living through the Carter years. Jimmy Carter was helpless and indecisive, and he essentially blamed the American people's simple desire to live their lives for the ineffectiveness of his Administration. Ronald Reagan changed everything because he showed that he was confident in the American people and our ability to make our lives better. His attitude made all the difference in the world, as he believed in the American people to do for themselves what the government was so clearly unable to do for us.
In my view, the fundamental difference between conservatism and liberalism is that conservatism is based on a trust of the individual to do the right thing for himself and for the community. Opportuninity and accountability go hand-in-hand. Liberalism, on the other hand, is an ideology that seems not to t