On Thursday's The Situation Room on CNN, Time magazine's managing editor, Richard Stengel, suggested that the 1961 Bay of Pigs attempt to overthrow Cuban dictator Fidel Castro should not have been planned, as he assigned some of the blame for the fiasco to President Eisenhower for planning it in the first place. During a discussion of the importance of experience for a new President, Stengel contended: "John Kennedy, when he was first elected, very inexperienced President, got us into the Bay of Pigs. Terrible mistake. But who planned the Bay of Pigs? Dwight Eisenhower." (Transcript follows)
Stengel cited a recent Time cover story which mentioned that Kennedy "stumbled" early in his presidency, which "resulted in the disastrous Bay of Pigs," but neither he, nor the story, mentioned that Kennedy's refusal to follow through with Eisenhower's plan to provide air support to Cuban exiles was likely the deciding factor in making the endeavor a failure. The article in question read:
Once upon a time, the torch was passed to a new generation of Americans, and a charismatic young President, gifted as a speechmaker but little tested as an executive, was finding his way through his first 100 days. On Day 85, he stumbled, and the result for John F. Kennedy was the disastrous Bay of Pigs.
For scholars of the presidency, Kennedy's failure to scuttle or fix the ill-conceived invasion of Cuba is a classic case of the insufficiency of charisma alone.
The article did not mention that Castro had only just seized power in 1959 and aligned himself with the Soviet Union relatively soon afterwards, and that by 1962 the Soviet Union was already placing nuclear missiles on the island country capable if hitting Washington, D.C. Thus, one could argue that it would have been wise to overthrow the communist regime somewhat quickly in 1961. But instead, the article chided Eisenhower for the timing of his plan to overthrow Castro:
For that matter, Kennedy would not have faced such a harsh early tutorial if the venerable warrior and statesman Dwight D. Eisenhower had not allowed the Cuba-invasion plan to be put in motion during the last of his eight years as President.
Below is a transcript of the relevant portion of Stengel's comments from the Thursday March 6 The Situation Room on CNN:
RICHARD STENGEL: Well, you know, Wolf, we did a cover story last week about how much experience does a President need, and we cited the fact that John Kennedy, when he was first elected, very inexperienced President, got us into the Bay of Pigs. Terrible mistake. But who planned the Bay of Pigs? Dwight Eisenhower. I agree with Gloria. It's not so much experience. It's temperament. It's your judgment. It's all of those things that experience contributes to.















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For that matter, Kennedy
March 7, 2008 - 19:30 ET by sublight68For that matter, Kennedy would not have faced such a harsh early tutorial if the venerable warrior and statesman Dwight D. Eisenhower had not allowed the Cuba-invasion plan to be put in motion during the last of his eight years as President.
The world goes on, independently of election cycles. A president doesn't have the luxury of developing senioritis and just hanging out until his term expires.
Nor does an incoming president get to ignore everything that's come before and start fresh with a clean slate. This will come as a shock to dems should Clinton or Obama be elected. No doubt they're expecting a magic reboot button that will instantly undo the last 8 years and transport us back to January 2001 for a do-over.
President Eisenhower, a master; JFK, a disaster
March 7, 2008 - 22:36 ET by Ten7sNo Cuban-invasion plan was "put in motion" under President Eisenhower. There are always all sorts of scenerios drawn up with possible ways to deal with enemies. JFK was entirely responsible for the Bay of Pigs disaster, and the most disgusting part of that sorry event was JFK's decision to withdraw naval and air support at the last moment, essentially turning-tail-and-running and abandoning our Cuban allies to die, b/c of his fear of international reproachment. Thus, JFK in essence invited the Cuban Missle Crisis and the Berlin Wall (with this and other monumental blunders). Also, his assassination of President Ngo Dinh Diem lead directly to the Vietnam War. In National Defense and Foreign Policy, President Eisenhower was a master; JFK was a disaster. President Eisenhower's administration was efficient and effective; JFK's was disfunctional. But Liberals seem to never tire of covering-up for JFK, its kind of pathetic.
10-7's
March 7, 2008 - 22:40 ET by BlondeSpot on.
And I had to hide my head under the desk as a little kid, due to JFK's ineptitude. 100 miles away from Habana & the Sov's.
But doncha know, the media will perpetuate the Camelot mythology.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Tagging onto your comments . . .
March 8, 2008 - 08:59 ET by WingletDriverabout incoming presidents not getting a clean slate: Why doesn't Time or the rest of the MSM apply this thinking to 9/11? They have a collective coronary anytime the Clinton administration is criticized for its intel and policy lapses. And Al Gore's ridiculous challenge for a judicial appointment coupled with endless congressional stalling delayed Bush's national security advisors from being briefed on government activities.
What would be even more unusual for Time is if they took this to its logical conclusion. The next president will inherit a country that is the target of countless terrorist conspiracies. This is not Bush's fault, but it is a reality. Is Obama really ready to handle anything of this magnitude? After all, he won't be able to vote "Present" when the buck stops at his desk. Is Hillary up to the task? Her co-administration in the 90s was obviously asleep at the switch when they weren't actively screwing up minor military ops like Somalia or blowing up aspirin factories in the Sudan.
1. Planning is 5%,
March 7, 2008 - 19:35 ET by Edhenry1. Planning is 5%, execution is 95%.
2. JFK was a WWII vet, Navy.
3. 85th day is not the first week. JFK could have stopped, changed, delayed, asked Eisenhower, etc.
4. Military put plan in, Eisenhower would have only approved.
Eisenhower put advisers in Vietnam, but that didn't get ruined until JFK & Johnson, saved by Nixon, then ruined again by democrat congress.
The example does show that Obama is unqualified, and not even close, as commanded in chief.
Edhenry; Ditto !! here is what the demoRATs did..in1975
March 7, 2008 - 19:51 ET by upcountrywaterwash hands &
bail
69 sec.
Iranian uranium; Iranian ICBM's; Iranian satellites..CHANGE is comming BELIEVE in that!
Read Ultimate Sacrifice
March 7, 2008 - 22:20 ET by PamThe book is an eye opener on all that Teddy would like people to forget about JFK and RFK with regards to Cuba and even JFK's assassination!
You are exactly right. JFK could have stopped that at anytime, but he didn't.
What would Ike say?
March 7, 2008 - 19:38 ET by nkviking75If we could ask Ike, he might well say that the plans were in the works but not ready, or that they may have been contingency plans, or that the plans had been developed but rejected as impractical. We'll never know.
Truman said, "The buck stops here." Kennedy, to his credit, accepted responsibility for the failure of the Bay of Pigs. Today's MSM says, it's always the Republicans' fault.
When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.
Did JFK ask Ike to kill Castro, too?
March 7, 2008 - 19:57 ET by Gary Hall..and who planned all of those assassination attempts on Castro JFK's administration? Ike?
The MSM loves to play with Chavez's claims that President Bush has tried to assassinate him, ever willing to cast Bush as an evil-doer. Meanwhile, JFK's covert activities, as well as the historic failures to deal with the horror and oppression that Castro was creating just never seems to make it to the pen or the lips of the mainstream media. The thin veil of Camelot must endure.
»→ Kennedy
March 7, 2008 - 20:00 ET by Cool ArrowIn turning his back on the Bay of Pigs invasion, Kennedy invited missiles into Cuba with his show of weakness.
Then he gets to play the hero by standing up to the Russians who wouldn't have had the b*lls to arm Cuba in the first place.
♣ a seal
Few can churn out such
March 7, 2008 - 20:32 ET by fitzfongFew can churn out such ridiculous revisionist history better than Time Magazine. Why's the publication so thin, again?
JFK
March 7, 2008 - 20:32 ET by ScrapironJFK was never a hero. Driving your boat in front of a ship, getting it destroyed and your crew killed would result in a court martial (for anyone else), unless old man Joe and several congress critters ran overseas to bail him out. Actually JFK was more in line with phony hero Hanoi John Kerry than anyone else.
Old, Retired and glad of it.
Exactly
March 8, 2008 - 00:11 ET by Del Dolemonte"Reporting for duty!"
»→ Delmonte
March 8, 2008 - 10:05 ET by Cool ArrowAre you wounded or is that a ketchup stain?
♣ a seal
Most objective historians
March 8, 2008 - 11:50 ET by JerMost objective historians who have researched the incident--as well as JFK's shipmates--would strenuously disagree with you.
Jer
No Such Thing
March 8, 2008 - 12:42 ET by Del DolemonteWhat's an "objective historian"? JFK suckup Arthur Schlesinger, perhaps, who compared George Bush's liberation of Iraq with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?
Did I say anything about
March 9, 2008 - 03:25 ET by JerDid I say anything about Schlesinger, a prominent liberal and admirer of JFK?
Besides reading various accounts of the episode, I have seen a History Channel presentation on the topic which aired different viewpoints. Despite the admittedly aggrandizing efforts of papa Joe, the actions of JFK, in my opinion, can rightfully be described as heroic--and I think the crew of the PT-109 unanimously concur.
Jer
That seems unfair to
March 8, 2008 - 12:02 ET by Jack BauerThat seems unfair to me.
I've never served, I'm a conservative, I'm hardly a fan of the Kennedys, especially Joe..
But JFK volunteered and served.
And until I hear a litney of his shipmates calling his valor into question with chapter and verse I shall honor that.
Well said, Jack.
March 8, 2008 - 12:36 ET by JerWell said, Jack.
From wiki...
March 8, 2008 - 12:46 ET by Del Dolemonte"In what would be later considered to be a textbook example of one of the most poorly planned and uncoordinated PT boat attacks in the war, 15 boats loaded with 60 torpedoes counted only a few observed explosions (which did not necessarily mean hits). Many torpedoes exploded prematurely or ran at the wrong depth, so no enemy ships were sunk. The boats were ordered to return when their torpedoes were expended, but the boats with radar shot their torpedoes first. When they left, the remaining boats, such as PT-109, were left without radar.
PT-109 patrolled the area in case the enemy ships returned. Around 0200, on a moonless night, Kennedy's boat was idling on one engine to avoid detection of her wake by Japanese aircraft, which had killed a PT officer in a previous night attack. With only ten seconds warning, they realized they had parked square in the path of a Japanese destroyer, which was returning to Rabaul from Vila, Kolombangara after offloading 912 soldiers and supplies"
Reading between the lines
March 7, 2008 - 20:43 ET by Kuso Jijiyou can see Stengel drawing a parallel between Eisenhower/Bush and Kennedy/Obama. Stengel appears to be a Hillary stooge.
Ask the remaining Cubanos
March 7, 2008 - 23:00 ET by ConservativeRexAsk the remaining Cubanos still living how they feel about Red Jack Kennedy. Especially Brigade 2506, if there is any of them left. They still don't have the warm fuzzy's about him I'll bet.
I guess that's the result you get when you pull the rug out from under someone, they tend to not trust you very much after that. Yeah Kennedy lacked the cajones over this event. But he listened to Dean Rusk, Frickin' Bob McNamara and undoubtedly Johnson as well, not to mention Bobby. These rascals are every bit as culpable as he is, especially that devil McNamara.
We'd better pick someone else to write the history of that event. Khrushchev and Castro both figured out Kennedy was a paper tiger and called his damn bluff. 40 years and billions of dollars for that botched play. And to think these numbskulls think it was DDE fault. They are, and continue to be, fools.
Not accurate
March 7, 2008 - 23:19 ET by buddycKennedy could have prevented it, could have given them support, could have done many things relating to the Bay of Pigs differently. Had it gone well, he certainly would not have held a press conference and congratulated President Eisenhower. It was not like 9-11. Kennedy had complete power to stop it.
For that matter, Kennedy
March 7, 2008 - 23:31 ET by MidAmericaFor that matter, Kennedy would not have faced such a harsh early tutorial if the venerable warrior and statesman Dwight D. Eisenhower had not allowed the Cuba-invasion plan to be put in motion during the last of his eight years as President.
Are they saying Eisenhower should have 'child-proofed' the Whitehouse before he left so that those coming in wouldn't get into trouble because they weren't ready to play with the big boys?
I wonder if Richard Stengel will hold Clinton responsible for...
March 8, 2008 - 01:03 ET by R D Helm...what is currently going on in Iraq. From what I have read, Mr. Bush used the plan the Clintonistas formulated for the removal of Saddam from power.
After all, many on the left consider Iraq such a failure.
Theme for Election '08: I want my mommy!
As Rush likes to joke,
March 8, 2008 - 06:14 ET by riff_raffAs Rush likes to joke, "Liberals think that history began when they got out of bed this morning". (Did I get that right?)
Due to their public school educations, or for whatever reason, they seem to have no grasp of history's facts or reality. Every Republican president of the 20th century was to them a chickenhawk warmonger or an imperialist stooge of the military/industrial complex. Yet what history tells us, and liberals are unable to comprehend, is that almost every 20th century major military conflict the US got involved in, with hundreds of thousands of brave Americans sacrificing their lives (for foreign ingrates), was initiated by a Democrat President supported by a Democrat congress. I don't mean to say that this country's efforts were wrong- they weren't. But can you imagine a Republican congressman demanding impeachment hearings for FDR in 1942, when the war looked unwinnable?
As for Eisenhower/Kennedy and Cuba, yes the Bay of Pigs was a tragedy and a fiasco. But it was relatively harmless compared to what almost happened with the missile crisis. Kennedy brought this country closer to all out nuclear war than any other president in history. That nuclear conflict would have cost millions of American lives. Why don't liberals ever mention total nuclear anihilation when they reminisce about Camelot?
»→ Bay of Kennedy
March 8, 2008 - 08:37 ET by Cool ArrowI don't have a problem with Kennedy taking full blame for the Bay of Pigs.
When Ike left, Kennedy inherited an operation he could either endorse or scuttle.
Kennedy chose to deal deceitfully with the landing force. His predecessor knew a little more about honoring his word.
♣ a seal
Ike's plan was perfect, it didn't call for a wussy ...
March 8, 2008 - 09:11 ET by Crash... to carry it out.
As chance would have it, while on vacation, I walked into a friends hotel suite and heard this dunce blame the failed invasion on Ike. I waited for someone, anyone to step up to set his delusion straight, not a peep!
Fox News wouldn't have let his historic revision slide like it was nothing. He should have followed up with D-day was a failure because so many men died.
For the record Richardo, the plan would have worked had Kennedy not bailed at the last minute. My wife's uncle survived Kennedy's fiasco and was left to rot in a Cuban sewer for two and a half years. Most of the other paratroopers were shot out of the sky like flying pigs. This is one of the reasons Cubans do not trust Democrats.
Today, we are faced with electing another Senator (help us all). Lets at least vote for the one who can beat me in a hand of Go Fish.
This is the plan
March 8, 2008 - 09:17 ET by okiehawk44The media is starting to ramp up the belief that if anything occurs in an administration's first 3 days or 3 years, it is the fault of the preceding administration if the preceding administration was Republican. Of course if the preceding administration was Democratic, ala Clinton, when a 9/11 occurs it is totally the new Republican President's fault. If FDR had just started his first term in 1941, Hoover would have been blamed for the attack on Pearl Harbor in December. See how this works?
I don't recall anyone
March 8, 2008 - 11:45 ET by JerI don't recall anyone blaming the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center on the first President Bush even though it occurred just a few weeks after Clinton first took office.
Jer
Guess Again
March 8, 2008 - 12:56 ET by Del Dolemonte"The 1993 World Trade Center bombing - Bush’s fault." from Think Progress.org
Del...
March 9, 2008 - 03:14 ET by JerWhen, where, and in what manner did Think Progress make the accusation?
Do you recall, in the immediate aftermath of the 1993 bombing, claims that it was the first President Bush's fault?
Jer
Maybe Eisenhower planned
March 8, 2008 - 09:57 ET by misterbee241Maybe Eisenhower planned it, I dont know for sure but I'm not taking this twit's word for it.
But it was Saint JFK the Divine who carried it out, and at the last minute pulled US Navy air support that caused the whole thing to fall apart. That's documented.
There is none so blind as they that won’t see. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745
Agreed.
March 8, 2008 - 12:29 ET by sarcasmoBut one of the less-documented aspects of the era is that (at least according to this History channel video and other stuff I've read) Castro himself got US taxpayers' money from the CIA. <coughBLOWBACKcough> In fact, during that era there was a somewhat surreal appearance by Fidel on Johnny Carson's "Tonight Show," but nobody ever seems to want to think too hard about the government/media implications of that, either. ;) But it's still history.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Since the lefties love
March 8, 2008 - 11:02 ET by ahusserSince the lefties love Castro and Cuba why would they have ever wanted the Bay of Pigs to be successful? (I am being somewhat facetious as today's Democratic Party is much more left leaning than it was then.) Apparently JFK did not and pulled the expected air cover (Does anyone know why he made that decision?) which is the only way it could have had a chance of success. The left leaning press want it both ways: blame a Republican for a failure that they didn't really want success in and preserve the precious image of JFK.
The Democrats have a long history of abandoning allies at the drop of their collective hats. In one of today's blogs they talk about congressman supporting Chavez. I guess Colombia is about to be added ot the list of abandoned allies. When the going gets tough the Democrats leave.
Judgement Trumps Experence?
March 8, 2008 - 12:18 ET by CobraMan"It's not so much experience. It's temperament. It's your judgment. It's all of those things that experience contributes to."
Since when has judgment (or temperament) trumped experience when deciding on a particular course of action? My judgment in any situation is based upon my past experiences in similar situations. If I have little or no experience in particular situations, I will most likely make poor judgments in said situations as I have little or no idea as to the possible outcomes of my actions. Also, my temperament is similarly influenced by my past experiences. Since both temperament and judgment is deeply influenced by experience, I would say that experience trumps all other attributes combined, especially in a leadership position like the presidency.
The Time article does not
March 8, 2008 - 12:32 ET by JerThe Time article does not blame Eisenhower. Most of the criticism for the failure is directed at JFK. As Stengel points out, Kennedy could have scuttled the operation or fixed it. The author, however, does make the simple and correct observation that the project was formulated in the closing months of the Eisenhower's administration, but was ill-conceived.
Actually, the plans were continually revised, by both the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations. The CIA pushed the project and convinced both Eisenhower and Kennedy of its efficacy. The fundamental miscalculation by the CIA was the prediction that the people of Cuba would rally to the side of the anti-Castro brigades. The invasion was doomed unless that occurred . It didn't.
This exercise of folly was dumped in Kennedy's lap during his first days in office. He should have tossed it in the trash. Instead, he went forward with it, and his administration, the anti-Castro Cubans, and the nation paid a price for that mistake.
By the way, the invasion was designed to be entirely a Cuban operation so the U.S government could plausibly deny involvement. I would be interested in seeing any evidence that the use of American naval airpower or Air Force tactical fighter-bombers was ever a component of any appoved operational plans.
Jer
»→ Jer
March 8, 2008 - 12:41 ET by Cool ArrowWho pulled the air support?
Who failed to inform the landing force there would be no air support?
Those are the only pertinent questions in this blame game as air support was an absolutely critical facet of the plan.
♣ a seal
Cool...please define what
March 8, 2008 - 13:17 ET by JerCool...please define what air support you are referring to that "was an absolutely critical facet of the plan."
There was air support for the invasion...B-26's. Again, if you are referring to USAF or U.S. Navy jet fighters providing ground support, show me where they were ever part of the invasion plans.
Jer
Talk to Bay of Pigs veterans, Jer
March 8, 2008 - 13:23 ET by sarcasmoI have. Hell, I once ran for political office against one. They still think they were promised air support, so they still feel betrayed.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
sarc...I am well aware of
March 8, 2008 - 13:37 ET by Jersarc...I am well aware of the bitterness and sense of betrayal felt by the brigade veterans. It's understandable.
I think there were some CIA advisors who may have given the impression to the anti-Castro forces that the U.S would come roaring in with a squadron of jet fighter-bombers if the invasion "stalled", but I believe they were speaking without authority.
Again, the CIA botched it. And I think an internal agency "white paper" was released in 1998 which substantiates that conclusion.
Jer
»→ I don't know Jer
March 8, 2008 - 13:26 ET by Cool ArrowIs this a subject you have problems finding information on?
There are enough links online to flood the Superdome.
♣ a seal
Cool...
March 8, 2008 - 13:49 ET by JerIs this a subject you have problems finding information on?
Not at all...I have researched it. Note my link earlier in the thread to the Esterline interview.
You continue to insist that U.S. air support was a critical component of the plan. Maybe you're right. Thus far, I haven't found that [a commitment for air support] to be the case. But it could be I've overlooked it. So, please, just give me one of those flood of links.
Jer
But even back then
March 8, 2008 - 12:44 ET by sarcasmoThe plausibility of US denials in such cases was understandably weak, at best...One thing's for sure, though. The Bay of Pigs ground forces were given the impression they'd have air support, and ultimately many died because they didn't. This affects Miami politics to this day. The emotion raised by that one fib has ironically helped Castro by effectively extending the embargo-excuse for socialism's failures even though the embargo is a failure, too.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
»→ You're right sarc
March 8, 2008 - 12:51 ET by Cool ArrowIt seems Both parties are united on this one. The Dems because Castro killed their god (don't see any weekend passes for Sirhan-Sirhan ala John Hinckley), and the Repubs just like embargos.
Free market could have neutered Castro years ago.
♣ a seal
The Bay of Pigs Failure was JFK's Fault
March 8, 2008 - 16:02 ET by bias-fighter"As Kennedy's plans evolved, critical details were changed that were to hamper chances of a successful mission without overt U.S. military support. These revised details included changing the landing area for Brigade 2506 to two points in Matanzas Province, 202 km southeast of Havana on the eastern edge of the Zapata peninsula at the Bay of Pigs. The landings would take place on the Girón and Zapatos Larga beaches. This change effectively cut off contact with the rebels of the "War Against the Bandits" uprising in the Escambray Mountains. The Castro government also had been warned by senior KGB agents Osvaldo Sánchez Cabrera and "Aragon", who died violently before and after the invasion, respectively.[6]The U.S. government was aware that a high casualty rate was possible."
Stengel, wikipedia is your friend.
The Bay of Pigs Failure was not only JFK's fault
March 9, 2008 - 03:06 ET by JerThe Bay of Pigs was not only JFK's fault, but also the fault of the CIA, Richard Nixon, and a whole lot of other people...
Otherwise, bias-fighter, what you say is essentially correct. But in hindsight it is clear that there was a fundamental paradox: A precondition for approval of the operation was "plausible deniability" of direct U.S. involvement. Accordingly, this ruled out the Trinidad plan because of the lack of an airstrip which B-26's could have ostensibly used. It was therefore supplanted by the Zapata plan because the Bay of Pigs did have an airstrip in the vicinity. As it turned out, however, an array of logistical obstacles at that location rendered the success of the operation extremely problematical without the intervention of U.S. airpower. But doing so would eliminate the plausible deniability requirement.
Esterline, in the interview I linked earlier--and who was clearly no apologist for the Kennedy administration--actually believed Nixon to be considerably more culpable than JFK. For political reasons during the 1960 presidential campaign, Nixon pushed for a delay of any invasion or anti-Castro operations. By doing so, critical time was lost during which Castro was able to consolidate his control, mobilize his military, broaden his popular support, and strengthen his Soviet ties. In fact, the Soviets during that time were able to enhance their intelligence capabilities and uncover details about a potential invasion. To Nixon's shock, he lost the election, and a looming debacle was dumped in Kennedy's lap.
The biggest mistake made by JFK was not calling the whole thing off.
Jer
Will obama seek GW's guidance?
March 8, 2008 - 20:32 ET by SlicksterI think not, they are setting up the fall back position for when hussien obama blows it.