One must read the latest AP non-report about the effects of war on people with a big dose of "duh" in mind.
Study: War Trauma May Raise Heart Risks
A groundbreaking study of 1,946 male veterans of World War II and Korea suggests that vets with symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder are at greater risk of heart attacks as they age.
The conclusion: war is bad for your health.
Wow. Wonder how much taxpayer money was wasted on THAT study!?
At least our veteran's aren't so stupid that they wouldn't have been able to know it all upfront, without a "study".
"It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out," said John Oliveira of New Bedford, Mass., a former Navy public affairs officer and veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Now, I certainly don't want to make light of the problems of coping that our veterans confront upon returning from war. Robert E. Lee once said that it is good that war is so horrible or we'd get too fond of it and he knew whereof he spoke.
People are vastly different and, whereas some may never experience much discomfort or anguish from their war service, others are bothered with the mental images for the rest of their lives. And we, as a society, should be observant and responsive to the needs of our returning heroes even as they advance into old age.
But the study we have here is so cursory that it is beyond any scientific use. The AP report mentions the following:
The data also didn't track how frequently the men exercised, so researchers couldn't tell if the men with PTSD symptoms were getting more or less exercise than other veterans.
In other words, no controlling factors were implemented, the only requirement for the study being that the subjects were in the military. And, while it is logically a prerequisite qualification necessary to be included in a study on the military, it isn't enough of a control factor to inform the findings.
It would be like deciding that all people who get haircuts are women based only on who goes in and out of the corner beauty salon!
The AP, though, does not rate the scientific viability of the study and even adds their own irrelevant part to the story.
(Dr. Gary J) Kennedy, who was not involved in the study, said treatment options for PTSD include drugs, talk therapy and behavioral changes such as getting more exercise and taking action to solve small problems in life rather than shutting down emotionally.
"We've got a whole generation of veterans coming back (from Iraq and Afghanistan) and their health needs are just going to be tremendous," Kennedy said.
A "whole generation" Mr. Kennedy? We hardly have a "whole generation" who will be "coming back" with "tremendous" health care needs. We certainly will have a large group who's needs must be satisfied, but this is no "generation" the size of WWII we are talking about. No need to exaggerate and blow the facts out of proportion.
It was most ridiculous that the AP is quoting someone who "was not involved in the study". WHY are we bothering with him in this story again?
In any case, this story really adds up to no information that is useful to the reader and starts with a "conclusion" that everyone takes as obvious in the first place; War is bad for you.
Duh, AP, Duh!



















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Now contrast this limp-wriste
January 5, 2007 - 10:11 ET by donsalesNow contrast this limp-wristed whining to a time not so long ago when men were men and wimps were drummed out of the corps......
George S. Patton Address to His Troops (1944)
"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."
The General paused and looked over the crowd. "You are not all going to die," he said slowly. "Only two percent of you right here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood. Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base. Americans pride themselves on being He Men and they ARE He Men. Remember that the enemy is just as frightened as you are, and probably more so. They are not supermen."
(snip)
"My men don't surrender", Patton continued, "I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he has been hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight back. That's not just bull shit either. The kind of man that I want in my command is just like the lieutenant in Libya, who, with a Luger against his chest, jerked off his helmet, swept the gun aside with one hand, and busted the hell out of the Kraut with his helmet. Then he jumped on the gun and went out and killed another German before they knew what the hell was coming off. And, all of that time, this man had a bullet through a lung. There was a real man!"
(snip)
Patton paused, took a deep breath, and continued, "Each man must not think only of himself, but also of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they will go home after this war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the Goddamned cowards and we will have a nation of brave men. One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, "Fixing the wire, Sir". I asked, "Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?" He answered, "Yes Sir, but the Goddamned wire has to be fixed". I asked, "Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?" And he answered, "No, Sir, but you sure as hell do!" Now, there was a real man. A real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time, no matter how great the odds. And you should have seen those trucks on the rode to Tunisia. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-bitching roads, never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting all around them all of the time. We got through on good old American guts. Many of those men drove for over forty consecutive hours. These men weren't combat men, but they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it, and in one hell of a way they did it. They were part of a team. Without team effort, without them, the fight would have been lost. All of the links in the chain pulled together and the chain became unbreakable."
(snip)
Patton continued quietly, "Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin", he yelled, "I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
"When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a German will get to him eventually. The hell with that idea. The hell with taking it. My men don't dig foxholes. I don't want them to. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. And don't give the enemy time to dig one either. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and by showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have; or ever will have. We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we're going to rip out their living Goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket. War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!"
"From time to time there will be some complaints that we are pushing our people too hard. I don't give a good Goddamn about such complaints. I believe in the old and sound rule that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder WE push, the more Germans we will kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that."
The General paused. His eagle like eyes swept over the hillside. He said with pride, "There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your Granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana." No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!"
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
One of the most amazing gen
January 5, 2007 - 10:16 ET by Warner Todd HustonOne of the most amazing generals we ever had. We haven't seen one like him since. I wonder if we'll ever have one like him again? I Colin Powell is any indication.... NO would be the answer to taht!
The "new and improved&qu
January 5, 2007 - 10:22 ET by donsalesThe "new and improved" version of the United States and its armed forces foisted on us by the Democratic Party since WWII make this ABSOLUTELY impossible.....
The radical left together with the MSM has placed this country in dire peril with their self-serving tactics and legislation.....
Why I wonder if we'll even HAVE an army in 50 years time......
George S. Patton together with surviving members of the 3rd Army who fought with Patton must be reeling in their boots either here or in heaven......
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
Why I wonder if we'll even HA
January 5, 2007 - 10:45 ET by Dave RWhy I wonder if we'll even HAVE an army in 50 years time......
donsales,
I wonder if this country is even going to exist fifty years from now, or even twenty years from now, for that matter.
If George S. Patton Jr. were alive today and saw what was going on in this country, he'd probably drop dead of a heart attack himself.
Who could blame him?
No Army = No Adequate Defense
January 5, 2007 - 10:50 ET by donsalesNo Army = No Adequate Defense = No Country at all
Just take a look up north to our friends the Canadians who have more or less eliminated their standing army....when we go, so do they....
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
That is because they have bee
January 5, 2007 - 10:55 ET by Dave RThat is because they have been conditioned to expect us to step in and save their lilly-white boring asses. :-^)
What is sadder still is that we probably will.
Dave R
January 5, 2007 - 11:04 ET by misterbillGeorge Patton would not drop dead! He would start kicking ass. America needs a swift kick in its liberal ass to wake up. There will not be an America in 20 years or less , IMHO.
Our biggest enemy is apathy and disbelief. It is fed to America on the airwaves every day. We are the bad guys. we are told. Not so, says I and most NBers.
mb,You're right, he would do
January 5, 2007 - 11:43 ET by Dave Rmb,
You're right, he would do just that. As for me, I may have a heart attack from the stress of watching the empty suits in Washington (and that includes GWB, for whom my dissappointment in has reached a level that is beyond words) piddle around and do next to nothing in a great many areas. Not only do we face a threat from Islamo-fascist barbarians, but we are currently being invaded by illegal aliens, and neither party seems willing to do anything about it, despite that fact that most Americans want the flow of illegals at least stemmed and some of us would like to see it outright halted, at least until we could get a handle on it.
Now I'm seeing stories suggesting that these same illegals may soon be allowed access to Social Security benefits. This is, forgive me, total bullshit. I'll tell you now that if GWB signs any bill to allow this, or give the illegals amnesty, Chris Matthews & Cindy Sheehan will not be the only ones that will be screaming for impeachment, as I believe the illegal immigration situation is every bit as much of a threat to this country as the raghead illiterate woman-beaters are.
My father, a Georgia Tech trained Mechanical and Civil engineer, registered Land Surveyor and Landscape Architect is 78 years old and suffering from advanced Alzheimers disease. Before attending college he spent five years in the Marine Corps., serving mostly on a carrier (CV-47) in Korea. Believe me, he was so conservative, he made Barry Goldwater sound like Al Gore.
When he got sick, I spent a lot of time being angry at God. Now, in certain ways, I sometimes see his condition as somewhat of a blessing, because if he were fully conscious of what was going on in this country today, I honestly believe he would die of a broken heart.
Mr. Powell would be unfit to
January 5, 2007 - 10:50 ET by Dave RMr. Powell would be unfit to even shine the boots of George S. Patton, who in my humble opinion was the best pure combat general this country has ever produced.
Americans today live in two p
January 5, 2007 - 11:15 ET by donsalesAmericans today live in two parallel universes....
Just take a gander at the MSM, the educators and the literati in this country, and then, take a good look at our fighting men and women over in Iraq........
There is absolutely NO CONNECT between these two dissenting forces...as though a standing, fighting army in Iraq does not exist at all except to note body counts by liberals in this country......this group here cowers with fright and empty heroism while the group over there put their lives on the line each and every day because they truly believe in this country and the principles that were established over 200 years ago.....
Today's General Staff in the military have become beauraucrats concerned more with retirement benefits, perks and rank than winning any wars on behalf of freedom....Just look at Colin Powell and Wesley Clarke who upon retirement have publicly trashed our war efforts while generating millions in speaking and consulting engagements.....simply disgusting....just more of the same coming out of Washington these days.....
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
Americans today live in two p
January 5, 2007 - 11:15 ET by donsalesI must be locked in the past
January 5, 2007 - 10:23 ET by misterbillI must be locked in the past--I find the Generals speech as inspiring today as it was when I read about it as an eleven year old boy. All my heros are dead--will no one who aspires to be an American leader stand up and speak like General Patton. What do you think he would say about being invaded from the south?? How long do you think he would stand still and watch what is happeneing today? Where are the heroes of America? Some are in Iraq, but none are in Congress or the Senate anymore.
Today a majority of both the
January 5, 2007 - 10:32 ET by donsalesToday a majority of both the Senate and the House believe the only good "warrior" is a "DEAD WARRIOR" (see GSP)......
They will avow a strong endorsement of our military might when the cameras are recording them, but they will fail to live up to the remarkable legacy left to them by those who governed and fought before when push comes to shove.....
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
"No bastard ever won a
January 5, 2007 - 10:41 ET by Tom1969ca"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-- George S. Patton (1944)
"Forgiving (al-Qaeda) is God's function. Our job is to arrange the meeting."
-- Norman Schwarzkopf (2001)
There will never be another Patton, but I think Stormin' Norman came close...
~~~
VOTE DEMOCRAT!
(It's easier than thinking)
Stormin Norman
January 5, 2007 - 10:44 ET by misterbillStormin Norman met the man in Tampa--sorry that his health took him out of the public eye (and service). He would have been a good leader in civvies as well as military.
One of the best decisions I e
January 5, 2007 - 13:36 ET by UnsaneOne of the best decisions I ever made in college was to attend a lecture he gave at another nearby university. He is one awesome public speaker!
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
BREAKING!
January 5, 2007 - 10:16 ET by blackrain4xmasThis just in! A new study shows that bullets, bombs, and shrapnel can also cause even more harm! More and more each day, it would appear that warfare is dangerous.
"The study needs to be
January 5, 2007 - 10:27 ET by MightyMouth"The study needs to be repeated to see if the findings hold true for PTSD-diagnosed veterans, and for women, she said"
No, the study needs to be repeated so that the researchers can continue to receive grants from our spend happy government. What are they going to do... ban war?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Q: Why are studies like this
January 5, 2007 - 10:33 ET by taznarQ: Why are studies like this done?
A: Because that's the way science is (properly) done.
In science, you build on results that are proven/tested, not on assumptions or "what's obvious".
Start with the idea that wartime stress causes an increased risk of heart attacks even years later. That's not obvious to me at all, much less obvous enough to know how to start a program aimed at taking care of the problem.
First you start with a relatively cheap study, collating data already available to determine if there really are any indications this is true. Without doing that first, there's no way you're going to get the funding necessary to do a more rigorous study which would cost many times what the first one did.
This study is a necessary first step in the scientific process. You simply can't implement a plan to try to solve a problem (increased rate of heart attacks) unless you first prove the problem is real.
"War is bad for your health" is obvious. What to do about it is not.
Sorry, but your assumption
January 5, 2007 - 10:35 ET by Warner Todd HustonSorry, but your assumption that this study was "science" seems unfounded.
????? Because you think th
January 5, 2007 - 13:28 ET by taznar?????
Because you think the conclusion was "obvious" makes it not science???
What about it make it "not science"? Read what I wrote. You don't base science on what seems obvious, you do the study and analyze the results. If you do it enough, you soon find the "obvious" isn't always a sure bet.
taznar....What planet are you
January 5, 2007 - 10:46 ET by donsalestaznar....
What planet are you on and are you an employee of the NIH, the American Cancer Society, or Green Peace??????
Did it EVER occur to you that the anxiety of troops who listen every day to the likes of YOU contributes MORE to heart disease and stomach disorders than bullets, shells or plastique???????
Simply incredible.....move to Canada, will ya......
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
Maybe you should take a coupl
January 5, 2007 - 13:39 ET by taznarMaybe you should take a couple minutes and think about what I wrote. Maybe I didn't write it well, but really! Maybe responding with something other than personal attacks would be more productive. What, specifically, do you find so outrageous?
Seriously, I'm concerned about the health of our troops. Aren't you? Why are you deriding studies aimed at trying to understand the cause better, so the problem can be dealt with better?
I know its fashionable to deride research that seems obvious and pointless. I'm trying to point out that even though many studies you read may seem that way (they often do to me too), they are necessary for reasons that may not be obvious and (believe it or not) the MSM often doesn't care to uncover.
Yep.....I thought so.....Tell
January 5, 2007 - 14:18 ET by donsalesYep.....I thought so.....
Tell me taznar.....should we ALSO study "post-traumatic" syndrome among unemployed, older white collar workers now trying to pay the mortgage and tuition bills with savings and while holding jobs at fast food restaurants after being laid off after years of service to the company??????
There is virtually NO DIFFERENCE between these two categories of employees (one was employed by the armed services and the other was employed by private industry).....the SHELL SHOCK is pretty much the same without ANY benefits for the private sector worker.....no health care benefits, no insurance benefits, nada.......and looking towards another 20-30 years on this planet......
I am constantly amazed at folks who believe life owes them a free meal.....it doesn't......except those working in government service (federal, state or municipal).....they've got a free ride for life.......with no retirement problems WHATSOEVER.....who do YOU suppose supports this citizen class??????
While we're at it, let's study "post-traumatic" syndrome in street gangs among those seriously injured in any number of ways during felonies???? And how about the prison population of this country???? Don't they DESERVE an even break on this front?????
I am always amazed at how naive, self-serving and foolish some folks can be...but welcome to THAT club Taznar....
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
Maybe I'm a little dense, but
January 5, 2007 - 15:26 ET by taznarMaybe I'm a little dense, but I still don't understand what point you're trying to make. Let's start with the assumption that I'm everything bad in the world, so we can dispense with the personal attacks and try to have an adult discussion.
The point I'm trying to make is there is a scientific basis for doing studies like this. They're quick, they're cheap and they determine wether or not its even worth spending any more effort in that area.
Now if you're point is that even that amount of money would be better spent elsewhere, that's a different debate where every person here would probably prioritize things differently.
Disclosure: Yes, at times my
January 5, 2007 - 13:54 ET by taznarDisclosure: Yes, at times my salary has been paid by the NIH and/or the American Cancer Society as well as VA grants and many other public and private sector sources.
But instead of immediately assuming some big agenda, consider that I'm speaking as someone who's had to go through "proving the obvious" in order to procede with further research. It can be frustrating but it is necessary. As I said before, sometimes what seems to be obvious turns out not to be. No scientist wants to spend months doing research only to find an assumption they made long ago was incorrect.
To the study at hand, how do you start treating heart disease in veterans if you don't know the relative impact of the added risks they have because of their service?
heart risks and dot.com crashes??
January 5, 2007 - 13:13 ET by Gary HallWell A.P., what about historic stock market bubble crashes and heart risks?
When it was so bad that even progressive economists (FOMSM - friends of main-street-media) were (my bold):
For the record, Baker's reference was to the "political leaders (Clinton's era)" of the late 90's - not the Bush admin. Causing millions of families to loose everything and their dreams - is indeed a bit hard on ones heart. Suspect the AP missed that one?
Ignoring terrorism is MUCH wo
January 5, 2007 - 13:46 ET by NazarethIgnoring terrorism is MUCH worse for our health - I swear the dolts at AP have all had lobotomies
http://sacredscoop.com
Naz
January 5, 2007 - 13:57 ET by Gary HallNaz.... labotomies on what? (;~>