They mostly pay their way

Tumbler, in another post about illegal immigration, you made the same claim that most illegals are paying their way.  I quoted a report which said that in California alone, illegals were costing upwards of $10 billion for, I believe, hospital and medical bills.  That's not taking into account the other cost to society directly (educational costs, prison costs, depression of wages, etc.) and indirectly (money being sent back home out of country).  You seriously would have us believe that people making a few bucks an hour pay for their way when an ER visit is in the hundreds to begin with?  Please...

It's easy to sit and say that they pay their way without giving any type of hard data.  It's also easy to sit and call people who disagree with you "white supremacists".  It's hard to actually find data to back up what you say, isn't it?  (Notice I don't call you a "Brown supremacist" or any other names; I simply want to stick to the issues and the facts as best I understand them, you might want to try to do the same.)

Dutch

tumbler - Dude, your legs are shaking throughout your argument.

I've watched the Immigration debate here for a long time.  At one time, I got involved with a solution to fences with a definition of how to make a 'virtual' fence work.

1.  Your stand dismisses the US Sovereign right to expel and to regulate illegal entry into the country regardless of the reason.  Whether the people are poor or suffering and come here to look for work has no bearing on the US inherent rights as a Sovereign Nation.

2.  Your scenario and appeal to the 'better half' of human nature is a bit out of sync with the appeal of say, Mexican government policies toward their illegals.  I'm sure if you did a side-by-side comparison of the laws, rules and penalties associated with Mexican and US Immigration, you'd see that not only are we tolerant beyond even the most Liberal belief (don't jump - I didn't call you a Liberal) but beyond the commen welfare of any country's security and well being.

3.  We tried this amnesty thingy.  It hasn't worked.  I predicted when the politicans wimped out the first time under Reagan that it would not work and that we'd end up with oh - say - 12 million more in about 10 years.  So it goes.

4.  Rounding up illegal (key word here my man) immigrants and shipping them to the border is not inhumane.  It is not selfish.  It is not mean spirited.  It does not reflect badly on the character of our country.  I call your attention to the numerous countries in which we have provided rehabilitation and saved from their evil and rebuilt and introduced to the world as Democratically governed nations that are civilized.  Don't forget all the love and admiration we get from them.  Germany and France come to mind, but you could throw in a number of others.

5.  Foreign policy of the United States is not designed to make people feel good here about ourselves.  Domestic policy should be first and foremost an issue of security for Americans and then make them feel good, like they do in Chicago - the original model for using my tax dollars to buy votes.

I understand your position and have read all of your posts (well a bunch of them anyway).  Your consistent railing against any proposal to fundamentally tell illegal people in the US they are intrinsically not wanted seems to be illogical and irrational when looking at how real Sovereign countries run their border.

I don't really know what your personal relationship is with the South of the Border folks but I can assure you that most people cringe at the idea that 12 millions of people are in the US uninvited, unregistered and virtually untraceable within any system of structure.  That would include credit bureaus, DMV's, voting, taxes, etc.

So, I think the Republicans have a solid point to disagree with the President and the arena of ideas allows that in the Party; whereas in the Democrat Party driven by opportunism there doesn't seem to be any position other than wait to jump on the bandwagon of the side that they see will benefit their politics.  They do not put the country before their lust for power.

The issues all confuse the discussion here about immigration because it becomes emotional.  Rational discussion of this issue would require a 25,000 foot point of view that basically did not take into consideration the 'human' factor first and the Sovereignty of the country later (if at all.)

Just my two cents today.  I'll probably have another couple of pennies to throw out before 2008.

ACA

...

Acaiguana says:  "Which city is next?"

"Seriously, you should email your rep and your senator. You should ask them what they are going to do about it. If this goes into effect, it will be the last day that I will defend GW Bush. I will jump on the other side. I will send him emails and accuse him of selling out his country. As, I was saying, what are you going to do about it?

PS where can I look for information on this subject???-"

Not sure. As I said, I heard it on Fox and Friends this morning. I'm looking on their site to see if I can find more info. If I can, I'll post a link.

Edit:

Info found here.