Just to prove that Fox News Channel doesn't live up to the liberal stereotype of Music to Conservative Ears, angry E-mailers are demanding someone denounce Fred Barnes and Morton Kondracke for slamming conservatives who staunchly oppose illegal immigration. In their year-end Beltway Boys "awards show" this weekend, there was this clip of agreement:
Kondracke: "Our 'Dumbest Move' award of the year is Republicans trashing immigrants. And this - this has disastrous consequences for the, in the election. The Hispanic vote, which is the fastest-growing element of the population, went 55 to 42 percent Democratic in 2004. This time, it went 76 to 26. And it's all because of this stupid wall that the House Republicans wanted to build, and rejected their own president's plan for a comprehensive immigrant reform in preference to cozying up to radio talk show hosts."
Barnes: "I don't think it's the wall, per se. I think it's their whole attitude toward immigrants in general, but particularly Hispanic immigrants. It seemed mean-spirited, and, you know, American voters are generally not mean-spirited. You, you're going to have some kind of a wall at some point, but you have to a lot of other things, too."
Kondracke: "Yes. The wall only is the problem."
Later, the Beltway Boys also slammed CNN's Lou Dobbs:
Kondracke: "‘Blowhard of the Year’ award goes to CNN's Lou Dobbs. Now this is a guy who also could qualify for Turncoat of the Year."
Barnes: "Yes."
Kondracke: "When he used to be a cheerleader for capitalism and for corporate America. Now he is a demagogue, it amounts for populists and potectionists and xenophobes. And he doesn't have any answers."
Barnes: "And he's wrong. You know, the fact is, the rolling up our borders and pulling out of the globalized economy is a way to achieve one thing: a lower standard of living."
Kondracke: "Yes. Poverty. Yes, exactly. Absolutely."
—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center
Comments Policy
At the end of the day, Fred B
January 3, 2007 - 15:07 ET by donsalesAt the end of the day, Fred Barnes and Mort Kondracke want to be LOVED.......
And they are very sensitive to being INCLUDED in cocktail party invitations on the DC circuit with a DEM majority coming into town.....I really DO feel you pain folks......
Some things just NEVER change....loveable whores one and all....
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
I didn't watch (I find Barnes
January 4, 2007 - 09:13 ET by sarcasmoI didn't watch (I find Barnes sanctimonious & Kondracke boring, frankly) but I wonder...Did either talking head even mention out of control spending?? Immigration's been out of control for a long time, but I suspect voters wanted to teach big-pork Republican spenders a lesson and that's the root-reason for the Republicans' loss this time. Compared to the lesson I'd teach 'em (think "tar & feathers") it's a very gentle lesson, too, despite all the moans & screams we saw here on NB when it happened...
JMR
To Tim Graham:Are you related
January 3, 2007 - 15:11 ET by donsalesTo Tim Graham:
Are you related to Donald Graham of the WP, and if so, have you recently had a falling out with Don?????
LOL......
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
No relation
January 3, 2007 - 15:29 ET by Tim GrahamNope, I'm not related to the WashPost Grahams, although it would make a nice story line, wouldn't it? ("The black sheep of the family trashes the paper online in bitter exile....")
It would make a great book.
January 3, 2007 - 15:52 ET by Dave RIt would make a great book.
Fred Graham of CBS? :)The dog
January 3, 2007 - 15:56 ET by Chris NormanFred Graham of CBS? No, I'm not related to any of those Grahams, Tim Graham, I am...:)
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
Dear Tim
January 3, 2007 - 15:16 ET by tumbler_2007Our recent losses in the election may not seem important, I guess; due to the overwhelming importance of raising large walls to keep out the most evil intruders in the world;
But why didn't we win the Congressional races? I figure the truth is hard to bear. Yet it's the truth. Despite the BB's crude way of putting it, "Dumbest Move," --no move at all would've likely preserved Republican credibility for a prolonged chance at solving the problem. Now we're to be seen as racists from the left; and irrelevant from the right. As Ollie would put it, "A fine mess you've got us into, Republican hardliners!"
.Darn. And in opposing Musli
January 3, 2007 - 15:18 ET by Chris NormanOh, darn. And in opposing Muslim terrorism, we've lost much of the Muslim vote...
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
I heard OBL was boosting the
January 3, 2007 - 16:02 ET by bassndudeI heard OBL was boosting the dems. Contributed to the dems fund, he did. He was all bubbley when they won.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Republicans lost the conserva
January 3, 2007 - 15:32 ET by mattmRepublicans lost the conservative vote. That's why they lost. If they had been stronger on the border and immigration, not to mention making the tax cuts permanent, they'd probably still be in control...
BTW From what I've heard, most legal hispanics are against amnesty...
The Republicans lost? I had
January 3, 2007 - 15:39 ET by JimboThe Republicans lost? I hadn't heard.
Is this what we are going to hear for the next two years? Or are we going to hear about all that "change" the "winners" are going to bring about?
sorry, mattm--
January 3, 2007 - 15:52 ET by tumbler_2007We did NOT. We were balls out to the polls and only beaten very narrowly in several races. Hispanics are by all cultural values conservatives. Many would've supported Republicans except for the mean-spirited few who trashed the ethnic minority here illegally. I'm an American Republican hispanic and I ought to know. In case one of the Beltway Boys happens upon this thread, I might tell him this:
Moi-- el tumbler; was at pains to predict the outcome of our elections; and turned out absolutely correct; our party shot itself in the collective foot. Just as I said it might, if they didn't calm down the uproar about a FENCE. Later as keen a pundit as Dick Morris said it plainly: Republicans have alienated the hispanic voter for the next 100 years!
Au contraire mr tumbler. No
January 3, 2007 - 16:15 ET by RunningBeerAu contraire mr tumbler. Not sure about your parts of the country but here in AZ (the frontlines of the war) the LEGAL immigrants openly denounced the illegals saying the border jumpers were making life extremely difficult for them.
The uproar was wrong. Borde
January 3, 2007 - 16:57 ET by mattmThe uproar was wrong. Border security advocates are NOT anti-hispanic. Just the same as the anti-affirmative action people are not racist and anti-gay marriage people are not homophobes. Conservatives are not against LEGAL immigration, but we are against open borders, illegal immigration and amnesty.
The Left deliberately spun this into a race issue, but the only people who should have been swayed by the spin are people who couldn't LEGALLY vote. So, if the outcome of this election was because of the FENCE, then there must have been alot of illegally cast votes. And any hispanic who thought the fence was a race issue, and voted Democrat because of it, was royally fooled.
"And any hispanic who thought
January 3, 2007 - 19:58 ET by TexasOptimist"And any hispanic who thought the fence was a race issue, and voted Democrat because of it, was royally fooled."
Absolutely. As I have stated before, Tumbler and those who agree with him are the ones that UNDERESTIMATE the intelligence of Hispanic Americans.
Merry Christmas.
Texas opto
January 3, 2007 - 20:09 ET by tumbler_2007Swell; don't agree with me. I'm still entitled to an opinion. God knows everybody trashes my opinions here often. Join the lynch party, Tex.
Hispanics know this much for sure. Texas as well as New Mexico, Louisiana, Arizona California and much more was sovereign Spanish territory; and afterwards Mexican. An old optimist named Sam Huston tookTexas away from them; & little by little it all went to the guys with GUNS. So now-- now American hispanics are too fussy when they object to a Mexican becoming the political football all over America? IT IS A RACE thing. Get used to it, Man.
Kondrake and Barnes are 100% correct. Our GOP soiled its own pampers. They dismissed the growing minority voting block. They found out how intelligent hispanics are, to their regret. Not FOOLED, they got angry.
So you support the reconquista
January 3, 2007 - 20:12 ET by TexasOptimistSo you support the reconquista, huh?
Imagine that...
(Just kidding. I know that you don't. And I surely don't seek to lynch you. I promise.)
Merry Christmas.
Many would've supported Repub
January 3, 2007 - 17:34 ET by Darth DutchMany would've supported Republicans except for the mean-spirited few who trashed the ethnic minority here illegally
Tumbler, can you quote what the "mean spirited" Republicans said about Hispanics, Mexicans, or otherwise? Or were they denouncing illegal immigration, which you automatically equated with Latinos? I have a feeling the latter is the case...
As I've mentioned in another post, while undoubtedly the majority of illegal immigrants who cross the Mexican border are Latino, you can't just assume that is the case. An "illegal alien" is not an ethnic term that can be slapped on any one particular race; rather it is a customs and legal term. So when you assume that it is just for the Latinos and no one else, that really is a racist statement, is it not?
And, I'm not saying you have said this, but many people feel that there is no such thing as an "illegal" human being. Funny how those people who say that also say that laws are "racist". If a human being can't be declared legal or illegal, how can a law be declared "racist"? I throw that out there for any to answer. :)
Dutch
And if the Republicans had
January 3, 2007 - 15:44 ET by motherbeltAnd if the Republicans had campaigned on not only amnesty, but on welfare, free health care, and voting rights for illegal immigrants, they would have won for certain, right? I agree that they lost their conservative base. The funny thing is they don't learn... they bend over backwards for this or that group, only to have them vote Democratic anyway. They might as well stand on principle and keep their conservative voters, because they simply can't out-pander the Democrats.
dear motherbelt
January 3, 2007 - 16:04 ET by tumbler_2007We lost more races by a whisker than we won, and it could've been different. Bush himself was trying to calm the overheated rhetoric, with the so-called comprehensive plan. --He was booed out of town everywhere he mentioned illegal immigration.
You add to these cockamaynie trips when you say, " not only amnesty, but on welfare, free health care, and voting rights for illegal immigrants." Who's demanding any of that? I sure don't. I say deport whoever we catch; but don't spout filth about them at the first opportunity. This is seen as hate-speech when Latins hear you. They haven't crossed the border for our welfare or free anything. They come looking for WAGES! Once you admit that, you shed the racist stigma; a stigma now on our party.
no workman's comp, 'free' hea
January 3, 2007 - 16:25 ET by kathleenirishno workman's comp, 'free' health care, identity theft, and they send their wages back to Mexico. I understand why they come here, but I am asked to continually subsidize it. Illegal immigration is bankrupting many towns and hospitals. People don't want to assimilate. They want to remain substantially separate, but collect the benefits. This is the reality.
"He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere" -Ali ibn-Abi-Talib, 4th Islamic Caliph
Where was the hate speech?
January 3, 2007 - 17:02 ET by mattmWhere was the hate speech? I submit that it was interpolated because of the poison pill planted by liberal pundits like Geraldo and the rest of the Drive-by media who never miss a chance to mischaracterize republicans as racists.
They haven't crossed the bord
January 3, 2007 - 17:39 ET by Darth DutchThey haven't crossed the border for our welfare or free anything. They come looking for WAGES!
That's just not true. I'm not sure where you live Tumbler, but in California, the illegal alien activists are screaming all the time about having more social welfare benefits, in state tuition, financial aid, etc. Wages may be what initially attracts them, but you're a fool if you think they don't come here (or stay here) for the other "freebies". (Which by the way I place the blame for this solely at the feet of the past and current administrations; they enforced the laws already on the books, the jobs would dry up and all of the other incentives would be gone. I don't blame the illegal aliens for coming here, but don't try to make them sound too noble, they're just as human as the rest of us and will try to get as much as they can for free.)
Dutch
"That's just not true.
January 3, 2007 - 18:52 ET by ckc1227"That's just not true. I'm not sure where you live Tumbler,"
I'll tell you where he lives: fantasyland, lol.
It's funny how many assume we lost because we talked about cracking down on illegal immigration. Isn't it possible we lost because we did nothing about illegal immigration?
tumbler, I was using a bit
January 4, 2007 - 06:32 ET by motherbelttumbler, I was using a bit of hyperbole to make a point....as Rush sometimes calls it, "illustrating the absurd by being absurd." It was about the Beltway Boys (not posters here) saying the Republicans lost because of their opposition to illegal immigration. So I carried it to the other extreme.
As for who's demanding welfare and free health care, I didn't say anyone in this discussion was demanding that. But they are already available in some places, especially health care. And in some places in California, there is already a movement afoot to allow non-citizens to vote in local elections. (the camel's nose in the tent?)
I could say I'm sorry you view that as hate speech, but I will interpret your comment as remarking that others would view it so.
motherbelt, take a hammer, hit self in head... do it again.
January 4, 2007 - 07:00 ET by acaiguanamotherbelt, take a hammer, hit self in head... do it again.
:-)
ACA
...
Acaiguana says: "Which city is next?"
ACA,Yeah, I finally had that
January 4, 2007 - 07:25 ET by Indiana JoeACA,
Yeah, I finally had that lesson driven home rather bluntly tonight, or today or whenever it is... never did get any sleep... doing some major room re-arranging, under deadline.
But trying to engage tumbler in debate is like trying to grab a handfull of... jello? Water? A useless exercise, in any event. Finally popped my cork over it. Just got to be too much!
IJ
Well, I really don't get into the Immigration stuff at all.
January 4, 2007 - 08:13 ET by acaiguanaWell, I really don't get into the Immigration stuff at all.
So, I thought I'd point out some fundamental stuff. Like if one is going to run around with hands waving calling themselves a 'nation' then some baggage gets attached, like sovereignty.
The Mexican people, for example, have a very strong sense of sovereignty and take immediate offense at any slight that might imply their country is 'less' sovereign than, say, the United States. This will get one in serious personal trouble in Mexico.
When we dilute our sovereignty in the name of say, 'human rights' as a shield to excuse illegal behavior by others not even in the American cartoon except as ink spots from a leaky pen, then we ourselves start leaking our own ink.
When we self impose an idealistic standard, like extending our Bill of Rights to enemies rather than facing up to them and fighting them on their terms if need be, then we handicap our security and freedom to the degree of defeat.
As has been said, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Without sovereignty, we cease to exist as a self-determined people and begin to exist as a cog in a set of wheels, the driver which might be a coalition of nations that hate us. I might point to the UN here, but that would be a 'cheap shot'.
So, it amazes me that Americans in general are the first to ignore the issue of sovereignty when all other nations on earth seem to be struggling to define their own in terms of asserting their beliefs, their ideology, their religions and their economics on everyone else.
Chavez comes to mind as does Osama bin Laden's gang of thugs.
It is probably too esoteric for our monomaniacial friend to cede as it destroys his arguments before they get formed. If he was standing off-shore and saying these things, I could sorta understand it. Then it would have no bearing at all on how the US conducts its business.
ACA
...
Acaiguana says: "Which city is next?"
Amen to all of the above. It
January 4, 2007 - 09:52 ET by Indiana JoeAmen to all of the above. It struck me a long time ago how when the U.S. makes any kind of suggestion, no matter how mild, to some countries, we're told to mind our own business. Yet increasingly, other countries want to tell us how to run ours.
To me, one recent glaring example was Fox of Mexico. IIRC, he was the one pushing things like I.D. cards for illegals, and other "reforms," trying to "negotiate a solution" to the illegal problem. But most of those ideas had to do with US dealing with it, not HIM. And mainly in ways that would make it more acceptable and accessible.
And it kills me when people hold Europe up as an example to emulate. I'm sure there are plenty of good things in Europe, but please! If for no other reason than many European countries are among the biggest America bashers around, I can't see taking them seriously as a citizen of this country. And many of their economic concepts? Fuggedaboutit. But how they scream if we dare suggest anything they perceive as interfering in their "sovereignty."
IJ
I should probably be able to
January 3, 2007 - 15:47 ET by rimskyI should probably be able to just have the names roll off the end of my tounge.. but I can't. So, help me here.. who are the hardliners in the GOP? Which Republican Senators and/or Representatives said, Bus 'em Back to damn Mexico or anything similar.. I'm just askin.'
Another myth created to back
January 3, 2007 - 15:53 ET by Chris NormanAnother myth created to back up the notion that Republicans are cruel and heartless...
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
That was me Chris. I said tha
January 3, 2007 - 16:00 ET by bassndudeThat was me Chris. I said that.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
bass,You just lost a lot of v
January 3, 2007 - 16:02 ET by Chris Normanbass,
You just lost a lot of votes, apparently...:)
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
Ahh well, win some and lose s
January 3, 2007 - 16:05 ET by bassndudeAhh well, win some and lose some. Wondered why I dident win. Oh, thats right...I dident run..another oversight on my part.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Don't be an ass. Vote for Bas
January 3, 2007 - 16:20 ET by Chris NormanDon't be an ass. Vote for Bass? :)
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
Hey, thats great...can I use
January 3, 2007 - 16:25 ET by bassndudeHey, thats great...can I use that?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Well, of course you can. Just
January 3, 2007 - 16:33 ET by Chris NormanWell, of course you can. Just remember I want an ambassadorship to a desirable country. Monaco would be nice. Yeah, Monaco, definitely...
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
JD Hayworth comes to mind.
January 3, 2007 - 15:59 ET by RunningBeerJD Hayworth comes to mind.
hayworth was just the meanest
January 3, 2007 - 16:13 ET by tumbler_2007Many others were out in the media every day. Not necessarily candidates for office; just "militants". Like we entertained the various groups; amongst which the "Minute Men". Who gave them official license to corner wetbacks? Not our gov't. Why should they be called up as "experts" on the evening gazette? They don't represent NEARLY half the voters in our country. They're muckrakers and YES; many are blatant racial bigots. They spread the shit all over & we lost the Congress.
The Minutemen protect the bor
January 3, 2007 - 16:22 ET by RunningBeerThe Minutemen protect the border states, mine included. They do it because the feds haven't been doing it for over 18 years. The do it becasue it needs to be done and they HAVE A RIGHT TO DO IT! Welcome to America. ;~)
runningbeer -- minutemen
January 3, 2007 - 16:33 ET by misterbillRe: your statements about minutemen:
Yes they do! No, the Feds haven't. Yes , it does need to be done. And yes, they have a right to do it. I guess (duh) I agree with you even though some (one) others don't.
But, since we are in agreement, perhaps you can explain to me why some people think a fence won't work. IMHO, anyone opposed to a fence is in favor of allowing anyone to come in to the country at any time.
MMMM, kemo sabe--seems like someone still talking with forked tongue.
A fence is what keeps unwante
January 3, 2007 - 16:49 ET by RunningBeerA fence is what keeps unwanted critters outa my yard so I don't see why it wouldn't work at the border. If fences don't work then someone oughta tell American Fence Co they need a new product line.
All seriousness aside ;~) I've heard whiners (one) and liberals (many) saying the fence won't work but you'll never hear that from me.
runningbeer
January 3, 2007 - 18:58 ET by misterbillI have the schedule of the minuteman patrols for the first half of 2007. I am hoping that my health (very bad back) allows me to assist. As of today, I am planning to assist the Minutemen in their noble effort to protect our country because our elected officials are not.
minute men are just outlaws
January 3, 2007 - 16:35 ET by tumbler_2007I call it taking the law into your hands, doing a job like this and nobody gave you authority. We have one outlaw persuing the other outlaw who came here illegally. I never voted for a single Minute Man.
And once more I'll say: Some of them do this because they simply hate Mexicans. Just like Nazis hated Jews. I'm from San Diego. SD County is Klan territory, FYI.
Only a few miles from our southern Calif border, Fallbrook is the home of Tom Metzgar, a Grand Dragon. I knew one fellow back at Miramar Air Station who told me proudly: "I got me one of them pointy hats." He was a Klansman. White supremacists. If that sticks in your craw, too bad. It sticks in mine to see Mexicans called "cockroaches" by some of our NB contributors. Down at the border somebody's calling a man from Mexico just THAT. Count on it. Just because he's not a white American.
I call it taking the law into
January 3, 2007 - 16:54 ET by Dave RI call it taking the law into your hands, doing a job like this and nobody gave you authority.
tumbler,
I normally try to stay out of this debate, but I just cannot let this one go by. Just whose hands do you think the law is in, anyway? The law is in our hands. Our founding fathers gave it to us. When the government fails to uphold our laws, it then becomes our responsibility to see those laws upheld. Otherwise, the freedoms and liberties our ancestors sacrificed and died to leave to us would be lost forever.
When only government is allowed to make and uphold laws, tyranny is usually the result.
That partly was what the 2nd Amendment was crafted to guard against.
Excellent point!!!!!!! You
January 3, 2007 - 17:04 ET by mattmExcellent point!!!!!!! You win the gold star for the day!
Thanks, mattm.Hey, that means
January 3, 2007 - 17:28 ET by Dave RThanks, mattm.
Hey, that means I finally have something to replace my Buckeye Newshawk Award. :-^)
Cool!
Au contraire again mr tumbled
January 3, 2007 - 16:55 ET by RunningBeerAu contraire again mr tumbledown, the Minutemen already HAVE the right to police the private property lines along the border. You don't get to vote for them, their not running for office, they're exercising their RIGHTS.
absolutely not
January 3, 2007 - 17:25 ET by tumbler_2007"You don't get to vote for them, their (sic) not running for office, they're exercising their RIGHTS."
Yeah. Like an illegal. His human rights. But you wouldn't understand. Minute Men and Klansmen have more rights than me. You boys want to shut me up, but I have my rights.
Minute Men of the Revolutionary War turn over in their graves when they hear your crap. You trivialize the very memory of those great men.
I come here legally, I have r
January 3, 2007 - 17:32 ET by RunningBeerI come here legally, I have rights... I come here illegally then I have no rights.
Any questions?
Promised myself I wouldn't do
January 3, 2007 - 19:23 ET by Indiana JoePromised myself I wouldn't do this again. Been down this road before and it's pointless. And I don't really have the time right now. But I've always been a sucker for lost causes. (created off-line while doing chores... dated maybe, but I'm inserting where I meant to originally)
"His human rights."
So now, coming to America is a "human right?" Okay, what about the "human right" of someone from Somalia, let's say, who gets on a plane bound for America, and claims it's his "human right" to enter, sans any kind of paperwork or permission of the government? Is the Customs agent who prevents this violating this person's "human rights?" We should just disband the INS (or whatever it's called nowadays) because after all, they routinely violate "human rights?"
Face it. You're just advocating this "human right" for those who by virtue of proximity (or ethnicity?) find it physically easier to enter this country than many other "humans" who SHOULD have this same "right" you claim for some.
And you are in favor of deporting illegals (you've said so many times, and I take you at your word), yet against trying to keep them from entering to begin with. Doesn't matter if it's the Minutemen (who are defending private property where it includes a border...doesn't the property owner have the right to delegate whomever he wishes to that duty?) or a fence... you're against it. Consider these two viewpoints together for a moment....
(I just KNOW where you'll try to go with THIS, but this is known as an analogy. Someone of your obvious vocabulary skills knows what that is, but you'll try to "tumble" it in a completely different light. Now that I have THAT out of the way....)
ANALOGY: You are in favor of trapping mice in the house, yet against closing up the hole where they are getting into the house. Don't you understand how logically untenable and totally contradictory these completely incompatible viewpoints are? Also, you advocate this logic for only CERTAIN "mice."
THAT'S why you haven't ever managed to make ONE convert in these discussions, that I've seen. It's not that everyone else here is a Mexican-hating white supremacist (btw, how do you know the ethnicity of our fellow posters? YOU'RE the only one who has announced their ethnic origins, that I've ever seen). It's that your arguments do not hold water.
Now, I know you won't actually address any points I make here. You'll either call me a racist, bigot or hater for the "mice" analogy, or you'll call me a white supremacist (I am of European descent, btw, not ashamed of it at all, although some think I should be), or you'll find a spelling error to point out. One thing I know for SURE you will NOT do is honestly sit down and wonder why it seems that "everyone is out of step but Johnny."
Dick Morris' opinion notwithstanding one whit. And even if it DID, it just represents giving up a principle for VOTES. Not a path I advocate, nor one I will follow. He is a "political operative." He speaks PURELY from a standpoint of winning elections. He worked for Bill Clinton, for goodness sake! I don't take my principles from that perspective.
Also, I don't see anyone trying to "shut [you] up." And referring to other's opinions as "crap" is hardly good debating tactics.
That's it. Barring a reasoned response, I'm done. Oh, btw, I don't get paid by the word, either....
"ANALOGY: You are in f
January 3, 2007 - 19:28 ET by ckc1227"ANALOGY: You are in favor of trapping mice in the house, yet against closing up the hole where they are getting into the house. Don't you understand how logically untenable and totally contradictory these completely incompatible viewpoints are? Also, you advocate this logic for only CERTAIN "mice.""
This is a false analogy, because mice have whiskers and a tail......
Tumbler....???... ;^)
January 3, 2007 - 20:48 ET by Indiana JoeTumbler....???... ;^)
IJ great post
January 3, 2007 - 19:34 ET by misterbillIJ great post. I am bothering to address him today because I believe as America declines it is being assisted in that decline by fools like Tumbler. I sincerely and truly believe he does not give a hoot about America. Also, thanks for using "ethnicity". That argumentative punk has made his fellow hispanics non-white. I didn't and others certainly haven't. If that stronzo reads this he needs to know once and for all that we do not consider the illegals a different race. They are of different ethnic background. We welcome legal immigrants. He ignores the fact that he can get off his fat ass and go to Mexico to help. That is one method that would never enter his mind. It is much easier to call you and me names.
So, my message to him is GFYA. He brings out the worst in me.
misterbill, thanks for the ku
January 3, 2007 - 20:46 ET by Indiana Joemisterbill, thanks for the kudos. I haven't even followed the whole thread, like I said, pretty busy day. But I just can't hear him spout the same old rhetoric over and over without responding. It's like being stuck in a loop, one thread seems just like so many others. But I really don't expect to change his mind about it, anymore than he'll change mine. I think the "ethnicity" angle colors it for him (no pun intended). If it were poor Swedes streaming across the border, I think he'd be with us.
Regards,
IJ
"It's deja vu all over again." - Yogi Berra
IJ another bullseye
January 3, 2007 - 20:51 ET by misterbillIJ another bullseye. When I first joined NB grumbler was polite and we had a good dialogue going. I dared to ask him if hr felt his own ethnicity had anything to do with his tolerance. He exploded and has been on me ever since. I sincerely believe if chinese people were migrating illegally into Northern California and taking all the jobs that Tumbler doesn't want--his reaction would be quite different. I think he is a coyote and our opinions may affect his business. I have had enough tumbler today to last a month.
Ta!
my principles are in perspective
January 3, 2007 - 21:52 ET by tumbler_2007BTW; why the Niagara Falls of wording? Brevity and common sense, Joe!
No, I find you entertaining, even if you pack a lot of BS into these precious principles of yours. You aren't the meatheat. The MH is Misterbill, who posts by the Niagara Falls torrent too. He's a meathead and a cheap shot artist. Motivated by hatred and self-absorption. Nothing really principled to add, any more than Tim Graham, who makes many rash statements here in a safe house. He wouldn't challenge Kondrake or Barnes on their home field. Why? He leads with his chin. You cannot substitute sound arguments with cliched fussing.
We lost our congressional seats on account of offensive rhetoric against illegal aliens. From the Right ! ! ! It's offensive to millions of hispanics and Mexican Americans. Folks who helped MAKE this great country, and who defended it in several wars. Hit them where they live, on principle. Go on, dismiss them and piss them off. Whether this is principled or not, it's counter-productive.
Heaping scorn on Morris is also a non-starter. he knows what he's talking about. Youz guys are all out to lunch when real work is required. BRAIN-work. Morris can think rings around you all.
Why the double-post, tumbler?
January 3, 2007 - 23:01 ET by Indiana JoeWhy the double-post, tumbler? Hit the button once, always works for me. And you write 'em your way, I'll write 'em mine. You paying for the server space here or something?
"Meathead?" Where did I use the word "meathead?" Why bother ME with this drivel, as you would say?
As expected, not one word addressing my points. Because you can't. You never can. I give you the benefit of the doubt in being able to engage in intelligent debate, and you just reply with mockery and venom. For me and anyone else who dares disagree with your unimpeachable opinions. If you reply at all, that is.
As shown by your implying that I dismiss Hispanics because I am against illegal immigration, you give them worse dismissal by assuming they don't know the difference between illegal and legal. You're the one denigrating them, not me.
And your feeling about standing on principle is pretty clear: you have none worth standing on, apparently. Whatever will get votes, just go with it. No "precious principles" for you. Victory through hypocrisy, all the way.
A reasoned reply would have gotten a reasoned response. Venom reaps venom. In the future, as necessary, I'll just re-post my above. Because it obviously hits you hard, and you obviously have no answer to any of it.
And TURN OFF THE ITALICS, &qu
January 3, 2007 - 23:03 ET by Indiana JoeAnd TURN OFF THE ITALICS next time! They're all the way down the page now, thanks to you. Or will you deny THAT too? I used NO italics in my post, so DON'T blame me.
my principles are in perspective
January 3, 2007 - 21:54 ET by tumbler_2007BTW; why the Niagara Falls of wording? Brevity and common sense, Joe!
No, i find you entertaining, even if you pack a lot of BS into these precious principles of yours. You aren't the meatheat. The MH is Misterbill, who posts by the Niagara Falls torrent too. He's a meathead and a cheap shot artist. Motivated by hatred and self-absorption. Nothing really principled to add, any more than Tim Graham, who makes many rash statements here in a safe house. He wouldn't callenge Kondrake or Barnes on their home field. Why? He leads with his chin. You cannot substitute sound arguments with cliched fussing. We lost our congressional seats on account of offensive rhetoric against illegal aliens. It's offensive to millions of hispanics and Mexican Americans. Folks who helped MAKE this great country, and who defended it in several wars. Hit them where they live, on principle. Go on, dismiss them and piss them off. Whether this is principled or not, it's counter-productive.
Heaping scorn on Morris is also a non-starter. He knows what he's talking about. Youz guys are all out to lunch when real work is required. BRAIN-work.
So I presume that you are als
January 3, 2007 - 17:54 ET by Darth DutchSo I presume that you are also against neighborhood watch programs? You don't vote for them and yet they patrol the neighborhood and report any suspicious activity to the authorities JUST LIKE the Minutemen. Or do you have examples of Minutemen killing Mexicans? Jailing Mexicans? That would be taking the law into their own hands, but not watching and reporting what goes on to the authorities.
Dutch
False analogy
January 3, 2007 - 18:06 ET by tumbler_2007You use a false analogy; because neighborhood watch is agreed to by the community. It's a united front with the consent of communities; and serves a good purpose.
Minute men aren't answerable to anybody. That makes their authority bogus. They're only present to intimidate the immigrant. Like your fence, they never stop anyone. Why should we enable somebody who's not screened or trained? I said it before: many of them are merely racists on an adventure. Some are from the KLAN. The same creeps who used to keep black men out of the Teamster's Union, right there in San Diego Cty. I personally met them; shop stewards who declared it openly; Keep Nigg--s from taking our jobs." I'm 69 years old. I don't make these things up. I've personally seen them. Racists just lay low today, they haven't changed.
You use a false analogy; beca
January 3, 2007 - 18:25 ET by Darth DutchYou use a false analogy; because neighborhood watch is agreed to by the community.
How are neighborhood watches "agreed to by the community"? (by the way, I'm seriously asking - not trying to be a pain in the butt.)
Forget the neighborhood watch idea then. How is it any different than an individual citizen deciding to go out and look for lawbreakers. Again, not to engage, harass or fight them, but simply to spot any illegal activity and report it to the authorities? The person's not elected, but is simply reporting what they see to the proper authorities.
I'd like to ask another question in all sincerity. Many of the illegal alien activists say the Minutemen are doing a job that only the federal government can and should do. Fine...but they then scream it is racist when the federal government does do their job of either border enforcement or interior enforcement (i.e., the Swift company raids a few weeks back). This leads me to believe that they simply don't want any kind of enforcement at all, so their argument against the Minutemen is effectively knocked down. If the federal government were to beef up the border patrol to the point where the Minutemen were no longer needed, would you be in favor of that?
Dutch
dutch
January 3, 2007 - 18:49 ET by misterbillplease read fumblers challenge to my post below. It does not matter what valid source or info you may research, if it shoots him down, his next debate step is to minimize any data you have and finally he will start insulting you.
The coyote kid. Wants to raise the min wage for his hermanos so they can pay for being smuggled in.
"Minute men aren't ans
January 3, 2007 - 23:37 ET by ckc1227"Minute men aren't answerable to anybody."
Not true; the minute men are answerable to the law, and there is no law against watching the border for illegals and alerting border patrol when illegals are spotted.
ckc
January 3, 2007 - 23:52 ET by Blonde</i> </i> Minute Men are fine Americans.
(BTW, I looked up someone's hint to stop the italics and am trying it here....we shall see).
Okay, I give up....I must have copied it incorrectly. Sorry.
Blonde,Italics start in the
January 4, 2007 - 01:01 ET by Indiana JoeBlonde,
Italics start in the middle of tumbler's "reply" to my post above. DOUBLE-posted, and the SAME one that had you and ACA confused on the next page. Made me laugh to come upon it over there!
Go up and check it out. If not for the names, he'd have a "one-size-fits-all" retort. Of course, it wouldn't be MUCH of a retort, but enough for him obviously
IJ
<edit> let me try this... </em> </em>...I give, too. Just noticed that when in italics, the "path" bar shows "em," so thought THAT might work....
just remember, pals
January 4, 2007 - 01:13 ET by tumbler_2007Ho-ho! "Italics start in the middle of tumbler's "reply" to my post above. DOUBLE-posted, and the SAME one that had you and ACA confused blah blah."
Keep in mind this Bozo doesn't know what the crap he's talkin about. He listens to his own inner music box.
You still around, and still l
January 4, 2007 - 01:32 ET by Indiana JoeYou still around, and still lying? They DO start in the MIDDLE of YOUR POST!!!! GO LOOK for yourself!!! The FIRST of YOUR double-post, the one where you can answer NONE of the points I raised. Italics start with the phrase "From the RIGHT!!!!" Go on, LOOK!
Not wasting anymore time on fools tonight.
IJ --re:coyote man
January 4, 2007 - 01:43 ET by misterbillIJ --re:coyote man. I have enjoyed myself immensely today. I am not a very smart man but when I correspond with senor coyote, I feel like Einstein. I am not sure just how illogical he is because I (and others) cannot make sense out of a lot of his blather.
sarc time
But when you look into their sad eyes and see that they only want to rob you and rape your wife, your heart must go out to them. And now the poor buggers are going to get the USA to send them your Social Security money. And I can't wait for the day when you will be doing their lawn for min wage.
Geez what a sap el coyote is!
See, misterbill, I finally le
January 4, 2007 - 02:05 ET by Indiana JoeSee, misterbill, I finally let him push me over the edge. And realize that was his intention all along. At first, he'll string people along, be friendly and cordial. But as you move closer to the meat of the debate, if you raise points he's not able to rebut, he'll get more hostile, and start imagining slights. Then progress to name-calling, and finally be able to dismiss you when you give up, and just go ape-shit on him.
Note his reference above to me giving him "the finger." I realized after I posted, he was talking about my reply to HIS reply to what I consider my last post. My only post until then, in fact. The one where I raised the "mice" analogy, you were there. But now, he can point to my "last post" there as the one where I lost my patience. I don't think I was any worse than he was in his reply, but now he can dismiss me anytime I post on this subject, like he does you. Is now doing, in fact. Now it's just a race to the bottom of the school-yard taunt-fest.
Victory through attrition, maybe? He does seem to cultivate the "newbies." Looking for converts, I guess. I don't know, but any serious person here would have to wonder why no one else can agree with him on this. If I find myself completely and utterly alone in my opinions, I have to entertain the notion that I'm maybe off-base. Re-evaluate, as it were.
Oh dear, am I pouring another tennis court? Well, concrete work goes cheap in Indiana in January... ;^)
I'm done for the night, have a good one.
IJ <edit> oops, I got the pages confused. "The finger" reference is the next page, my first post is this page.. the one with the italics HE didn't cause. ;^D
I'm pretty disgusted by peo
January 6, 2007 - 21:39 ET by HyunchbackI'm pretty disgusted by people who start throwing the term or concept of racism out to stop debate.
Once you have declared someone a racist you aren't debating. You are accusing. By declaring that the MinuteMan Project is tainted with racism you effectively shut down any debate about whether it has any other meaning or use.
You can find racists in the MinuteMan Project. Your reaction is to declare the whole thing racist. I previously mentioned that you'll find people teaching kindergarten for the wrong reasons. Does that make the whole concept of kindergarten wrong?
I don't care if some members of the Minute Man Project are racist. Racists are citizens, too. I do care about illegal aliens invading my country and a government which leaves a long border wide open. In a world with terrorists seeking ways to strike my nation we can not afford a wide open border, north or south. I don't care if lettuce costs ten dollars a head. I can pay the fair price up front instead of paying for it through higher taxes, higher insurance, higher crime rates and higher health care costs.
By leaving our borders open we invite terrorists to smuggle whatever they wish in via the same paths currently used for smuggling drugs, weapons and humans.
dutchdutch
January 3, 2007 - 18:35 ET by misterbillOh poopoo dutchdutch YOU are not qualified to create analogies. Only Tumbler is. And after you have exercised every piece of logical debate to no effect, you will then start receiving the religious plaints. Oooooh, in God's eyes---if you could only see the pain in their eyes, etc , etc..
According to statistics compiled by US Congressman Steve King (R-5th CD Iowa),
please, mister pill
January 3, 2007 - 18:43 ET by tumbler_2007Take every stat from Steve King of Iowa and connect it to your hemorhhoids with duct tape. Quoting the biggest blowhard in the Republican party is for saps.
Barnes and Kondrake give us an honest appraisal of our party's condition and you come up with stats made up by a crew of political hacks? I thought you were a wiseguy? Stick it in your piles gash.
No one voted for the Minute
January 6, 2007 - 10:12 ET by HyunchbackNo one voted for the Minute Men at Lexington and Concord, either, did they?
If you look hard enough I'm sure you can find people in the Minute Man Project for the wrong reasons. If you look hard enough you'll find people teaching kindergarten for the wrong reasons. The motives of the few don't make the entire institution wrong. Look at the goal of the institution. For Nazis it was absolute power for their part/leader. The Minute Man Project has no such goal.
I want to point out to you a rather under-reported lawsuit going on right now. There is a lawyer who has a class action suit against Swift for hiring illegal aliens to work. His plaintiffs ALL have hispanic names because they are all of latin descent. They are former Swift employees who were let go and they were replaced by illegal aliens who work for less money.
This isn't about race. It's about doing things legally.
Tom Tancredo (sp?). The other
January 3, 2007 - 15:59 ET by iveseenitallTom Tancredo (sp?). The other guys lost. As far as Fox is concerned, Kondracke I can understand, Bar