Two days before Democrats open the new Congress in the majority, CNN business reporter Ali Velshi echoed their liberal talking points on the minimum wage.
See my story here.
Liberal activists and Democratic spokesmen are quick to argue that the minimum wage is too low and unfair. But on the January 2 “American Morning,” that argument came from a CNN business reporter.
While CNN’s Ali Velshi did note that “a lot of small businesses oppose” the new Democratic majority’s proposed wage hike, he insisted “the bottom line is it’s simply not fair that there has been a federal minimum wage of $5.15 an hour” or “about $900 a week.”
His math was way off – $5.15 an hour comes to $206 per week. Velshi probably meant that a minimum wage earner would pull down close to $900 a month, given a 40-hour work week. Pay at $900 a week translates to $46,800 a year, a few hundred dollars more than the U.S. median income in 2005. Of course if pay “fairness” could be legislated by Congress as Velshi advocated, that would be a minor detail.















Comments Policy
The minimum wage in my state
January 2, 2007 - 13:50 ET by JimboThe minimum wage in my state is already over $7 an hour, which puts my small business at an even bigger disadvantage. I expect that my state will vote for yet another increase to match the one given to the rest of the country. $7 an hour to college kids and retirees and lets face it, those with no aspirations, is more than enough.
Work
January 2, 2007 - 13:58 ET by iveseenitallCome on. Minimum wage workers and illegal immigrants do the work Americans won't do. Pay them more so they can have just one job and still get another car or large screen t.v. like everyone else. And when inflation peeks its ugly head up and small businesses fire workers, don't bitch.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
Yeah, I'm a small business ow
January 2, 2007 - 14:13 ET by dmntd1Yeah, I'm a small business owner, luckily still small enough to not have any team members that I have to pay. But, Illinois just upped the minimum wage from it's $6.50 to &7.50 starting this summer and a quarter an hour raise for the next three years. That was deemed better than an automatic COLA raise each year. BUT, but my math, based on an annual inflation rate of 3.14% since 1914 (see here), that would indicate less than a quarter raise each year. But either way, that's just going to make ME work harder so I don't have to raise MY prices to my clients.
Please make sure your train of thought carries freight.
I hear you. So by giving th
January 2, 2007 - 14:20 ET by JimboI hear you. So by giving the college kids, retirees, and uneducated a handout, we need to work ourselves into the ground or jeopardize our businesses by trying to pass the expense to our customers. As if small business owners didn’t have the deck stacked against us to start with!
We have to raise the price every year
January 2, 2007 - 19:11 ET by SportPoliticsMy customers expect a price raise every year. If They get a break in January, they'ell ask me " Aren't you charging more this year?"
It's a built in thing anymore, just like the prices ALWAYS go up in the supermarket and everywhere else. You guys know how insanely afraid the FEDRES is of deflation. They have made sure prices slowly climb, and continue to devalue the dollar, in order to force continued economic growth and cut away at the deficit and the $$$$ the government owes in their new deal promises.
Yeah, I'm a small business ow
January 2, 2007 - 14:13 ET by dmntd1Yeah, I'm a small business owner, luckily still small enough to not have any team members that I have to pay. But, Illinois just upped the minimum wage from it's $6.50 to &7.50 starting this summer and a quarter an hour raise for the next three years. That was deemed better than an automatic COLA raise each year. BUT, but my math, based on an annual inflation rate of 3.14% since 1914 (see here), that would indicate less than a quarter raise each year. But either way, that's just going to make ME work harder so I don't have to raise MY prices to my clients.
Please make sure your train of thought carries freight.
I say, while they're at it, m
January 2, 2007 - 14:05 ET by Chris NormanI say, while they're at it, make the minimum wage come out to equal a hundred grand a year. That way everyone can be well-off. End of story. Next problem...outlaw terrorism. End of story. Next problem.... this is easy. It's like pressing the "Easy Button"...
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
You're right, Chris, it is a
January 2, 2007 - 14:18 ET by bk1955You're right, Chris, it is a lot easier than corporate interests and the moneyed elite want you to believe. You can empower people to pay for necessary services by providing them a living wage, or you can provide social services paid for by your taxes. Alternatively, you can ignore want and suffering or let private charity provide. Which charities do you support?
OR - you can get an education
January 2, 2007 - 14:23 ET by JimboOR - you can get an education, aspire to make something more of yourself than working in a fast food resturaunt, and stop depending on the government for handouts. I worked my way through college, so don't even think about telling me it can't be done.
I wouldn't dream of telling y
January 2, 2007 - 14:41 ET by bk1955I wouldn't dream of telling you it can't be done. Certainly you think of your self a unique, capable and resourceful person. Does everyone you have ever met share those qualities? Some of us need a little more help. I was helped with a Scholarship and Student loans. I was also helped by family and friends who showed me where to find work. I believe the government has a role in creating a regulatory environment which will support its citizens.
BTW minimum wage regulation isn't a handout, countries with a higher minimum wage enjoy higher standards of living. A higher minimum wage raises wages up the earning scale.
Theft
January 2, 2007 - 14:51 ET by UnsaneYou are right, minimum wage is not a handout. It is armed robbery. And these countries that enjoy higher standards of living also enjoy higher rates of unemployment. The young (15-24) in France can't get jobs, and 75% of them want to work for the government because they think they are entitled to a job for life.
"Some of us need a little more help." Do us all a favor and whine that whine to private organizations. Leave government out of it. Government is NOT a charity.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
France seems to be #16 on the
January 2, 2007 - 15:17 ET by crsheddFrance seems to be #16 on the 'standard of living' scale (2005).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
And the 6th largest economy i
January 2, 2007 - 15:40 ET by UnsaneAnd the 6th largest economy in the world. And no doubt falling. But what do you expect when its people believe the greatest thing that happened to them in the past 10 years was the reduction of the work week from 39 to 35 hours?
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Unsane, good to hear from you
January 2, 2007 - 18:05 ET by bk1955Unsane, good to hear from you. Armed robbery, huh? you lost me on that one. The setting of minimum wage is a reasonable regulatory approach to labor market management. Are you suggesting it be eliminated altogether? That seems extreme to me.
As I've indicated before, the US does not employ the same measure of unemployment as the European countries you offer by way of comparison. We only count those "actively looking" for work. Other countries count unemployment differently. This can include the prison population.
BTW Job security is a factor many people consider when planning their careers. Why wouldn't the French?
I am happy to do any favor for you I can. I am sorry that you percieve a statement of the fact of human frailty as a whine. Too bad more of us aren't as tough as you present yourself.
What is your definition of a private organization? Surely you are aware many charities in the US rely on Federal Funding to fulfill their charitable purposes. Remember the Faith Based funding legislation?
I agree with you that government is not charity. Charity is voluntary, participation in government taxation isn't. Many industries are subsidized by the Federal Government, eg corn production, oil exploration, defense industries, medical research,etc. These subsidies are literally hand outs. Do you object as vehemently to subsidizing these corporate individuals as individual citizens?
Is your objection to paying taxes generaally or do you just object to taxes being used for humanitarian purposes?
bk1955 - you have no idea what you are talking about, huh?
January 2, 2007 - 18:28 ET by acaiguanabk1955 - you have no idea what you are talking about, huh?
The setting of a minimum wage is not a reasonable government regulatory role in the free market. I direct your attention to the post below that I put up. Any assertion justifying the minimum wage on this idea is not only dangerous in the power ceded to the government for wage controls, but is poorly thought out and destroys work ethic and incentive.
You demonstrate a complete ignorance on the setting of unemployment numbers criteria and its history in this country (the USA). Your definition is off by a number of years and further has changed more times than a 2-year-old's diaper. The numbers are spurious at best and misleading at worst. By all administrations, Democrat and Republican.
You grasp of economics is more than weak when you talk about government incentives for companies to concentrate their capital investment in areas that are otherwise not very profitable. I personally think the govenment should stop this behavior, but if they did stop it, we wouldn't have a lot of 'minority' illness medicines or Oil exploration since the Democrats screwed that pooch with their anti-drilling rules and anti-refinary rules.
You seem to believe that the government can meddle with the free market with no unintended or bad consequences, but history and current realities show that the bad consequences of nearly every effort by the government far outweigh the benefits.
I am against the Federal Government taking my money and spending it on poorly educated social agenda (read engineers) NGO activities that I would never support in a million years privately.
Your humanitarian approach has cost this country over $7 Trillion dollars (called the War on Poverty - LBJ - remember it) since 1965. There are the same number of poor people today as there were then, but of course the definition of poor is a moving goal post. The War on Poverty is a quagmire, a failure, has cost several millions of lives, is the reason we have a budget deficit and is immoral and illegal.
So your constant reference to a so-called poverty level is a relative measurement that changes like a snake's skin every time the snake gets a little bigger.
You have no idea how you are looked at in this argument by people who have studied these issues and understand business and economics.
If I were you, I'd stick to supporting loony ideas like changing the rules in the House as important stuff.
ACA
...
Acaiguana says: "Which city is next?"
countries with a higher mi
January 2, 2007 - 14:52 ET by Jack Bauercountries with a higher minimum wage enjoy higher standards of living.
What does that mean? Higher than who? Please define what you're talking about.
The US has the highest standard of living in the world, does it not?
Certainly higher than Germany, France and Italy, who I assume you are implying have a higher minimum wage. Yet the US has a per capita income one third higher than those three countries.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
Actually, the US was number 8
January 2, 2007 - 15:15 ET by crsheddActually, the US was number 8 in 'standard of living' in 2005, up two places over 2004. The countries ahead of the US, I believe, all have higher minimum wages than the US.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Nonsense. An absurd compari
January 2, 2007 - 15:26 ET by Jack BauerNonsense. An absurd comparison.
Have you been to Norway? It is a homogenous country of 4 million, that exports oil.
Sure, it per capita GDP is marginally higher than the US. But goods and services cost far, far more than the US.
Apart from Japan, all the countries mentioned are miniscule societies, even Australia which has far lower energy costs because of its climate.
Ireland was until recently the recipient of massive EU handouts.
The top five economies are: US, Japan, Germany, UK and France.
The UK (pop 60 million) has a minumum wage of $10 pe hour, yet it PCGDP is $30,000, wages are lower than the US, and costs are twice that of the US
I stand by my point. You want some costs:
London: pair of Levis 501s $160. Gap Chinos: $65. Pint of beer $6 (minimum), I bed apartment to buy in reasonable district $360,000. Movie: $16. Need I go on?
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
Good stuff as usual Jack.
January 3, 2007 - 23:33 ET by acumenGood stuff as usual Jack.
While the great "unsinkable" vessel ever so slowly pitched to her end, the band played on.......
If you want a true indicato
January 3, 2007 - 23:55 ET by JerryIf you want a true indicator of economic bounty, follow the immigrants.
For 230 years immigrants from across the globe have been flocking to Norway.... no..... Iceland... no.... uh... now what country was that.... could it be... THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA??
The immigrants know what country presents them with their greatest chance of achieving a higher standard of living.
And those standard of living figures are fun to look at, but they are relatively meaningless. When over 10% of the U.S. population recently migrated here with NO FINANCIAL assets, it will tend to lower your "standard of living" averages.
When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).
And how many of these countri
January 3, 2007 - 00:28 ET by NL207And how many of these countries have a birth rate sufficient to at least sustain their populations?
Exactly one. The United States. Source. The rest of them are headed to extinction.
Explain the paradox: If life is so great in these other 7 countries, why do the people who live in them lack the will to procreate enough children for their societies to survive? Could it be that high minimum wages and all these other socialist meddlings in private markets and lives destroy a society's collective will to survive? Could it be government wage and price fixing is a BAD thing for society?
NL207, what are you going on
January 3, 2007 - 00:50 ET by mandrakeNL207, what are you going on about. I can't speak for other countries, but here in Canada the population is exploding. (immigration i think) In fact, it's driving me nuts. You used to be able to buy a decent lakefront cottage for under 100K , now it cost nearly a mill! I really don't think Canada is headed for 'extincition' based on birth rate numbers.
Those who immigrae into Canad
January 3, 2007 - 13:11 ET by NL207Those who immigrae into Canada bring with them a culture alien to that existant in Canada. To the extent that these newcomers replace the existing culture with an alien culture, the former culture and peoples of Canada will die out ... that is, become culturally extinct. If this is not plain enough, I don't know how to communicate this notion to you that a culture is made of people, not things. People grow old and die. If all the young people are of alien origins, then the culture will vanish as the people who hold it age and die and be replaced by the culture of those alien youth.
You live in a dying culture. period. The Canada your grandchildren, if any, will know will be NOTHING like the Canada that you knew as a child.
So What?
January 3, 2007 - 14:02 ET by mandrakeSo the Canada my grandchildren live in will be nothing like the Canada I knew as a child...So what? When I was a school boy they used to make us stand up everyday and make us sing God Save The Queen. Todays children don't! Am I happy about this..you bet! My point is that culture evolves. My own children are busy making their own culture. I hate their music and they hate mine...this is as it should be.
This why I get amused when the 'language police' show up on this site. The English language, like anything, is not static, it's always changing.
So you say the Canadian culture is dying...I say the current generation (including my own offspring) are inventing a new one.
You children are not inventin
January 3, 2007 - 19:00 ET by NL207You children are not inventing a new culture. There is no such thing as a new culture. To suggest such is to imply there is a new morality. A new morality implies that man has identified previously unknown sins and virtues. There are no new sins or virtues not already well defined, known, and understood since the dawn of mankind. Hence, there can be no new morality, hence there must be no new culture, there can only be borowed culture.
Transplanting cultural traits from one society to another does not create a new culture. It replaces a previous culture with that which sourced the imported traits.
Those who welcome such transplantation are making this statement: The new traits are preferrable to the old traits. Apparently you don't like the old, Anglo Canada, excepting Quebec and prefer to souce your social mores from societies where women are oppressed behind veils, people stick pins in effigy dolls for revenge, stealing is OK as long as you don't get caught and justice consists of armed men coming to your house in the middle of night.
Nephew, your post is so rich
January 3, 2007 - 20:54 ET by mandrakeNephew, your post is so rich I don't even know where to begin. But let's start with the statement "There is no such thing as a new culture". If we go back to your original post in this thread, you imply there is something about American culture that is unique WRT to birth rates....but wait..has American culture been around since the dawn of mankind? Oh no.. I'm caught in a contradiction..help!
A lack of imagination... Yo
January 3, 2007 - 22:28 ET by NL207A lack of imagination... You are just a box of clay pigeons looking for a trap stand, boy. You are caught in a contradiction of your own making.
My point is not that America is deviant in its birthrates, it is that the socialist states are deviant. From an historical perspective and even in the contemporary world, it is these European style socialist states who are deviant. They ALL have birthrates less than population replacement and they are the only places on this planet where that is true in the absence of natural or man-made disaster. This is most unusual, perhaps even unprecedented. Can you name an ancient civilization that contracted and collapsed because it failed to produce progeny? I cannot. I can name many who were forcibly conquered, murdered, if you will, or fell prey to famine and disease or natural calamity but I cannot think of one which failed to procreate. I CAN think of one religious group that became extinct because they practiced celibacy, the Shakers, but they were only a minor subgroup of a greater whole. Their greater contemporary whole prospered and grew.
I implied nothing about American Culture. I implied that there was something about socialist meddling in free markets that seems always to lead to depressed birthrates in societies saddled with socialist governments. The pattern is near universal. The more socialistic the government, the lower the birthrate.
I postulated that wage and price regulation are bad for the overall survival of society becuase where these are imposed, insufficient replacement citizens are procreated.
Again with the birthrate thin
January 3, 2007 - 22:52 ET by mandrakeAgain with the birthrate thing! I spent some time up at McGill University over the holidays. I met many NEW Canadians of various backgrounds. Guess what, some of them knew more about hockey than I did..and I'm a native! There was even one Arabic guy who wanted me to take him ice fishing.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just don't buy the idea that birth rate numbers lead to the extinction of a culture...people adapt.
And BTW, I'm of Scottish heritage and damn proud of it there laddie!
Up for the challenge?
January 3, 2007 - 23:07 ET by acumen"I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just don't buy the idea that birth rate numbers lead to the extinction of a culture...people adapt."
A challenge - Read Mark Steyn's "America Alone" and then see if you still believe that birth rate numbers do not lead (I prefer contribute) to the extinction of a culture. BTW - If I thought this excercise was a waste of your time I would not have bothered to offer the challenge. I think you will see things in a different light after reading only a few chapters. In addition, not only are there abundant facts contained throughout, it is an incredibly entertaining read. I cannot think of a more important/relevant-to-our-times secular book to read at the present. Up for the challenge?
I just checked the online Tor
January 3, 2007 - 23:18 ET by mandrakeI just checked the online Toronto Library service. They have 35 copies of that book. However, there are 432 hold requests..this could take a while ;-)
LOL Mandrake
January 3, 2007 - 23:27 ET by acumenLOL - Spring for the $5.00 (US) on Amazon used books - it is soooooooo worth it......
Some people DO actually BUY b
January 3, 2007 - 23:28 ET by NL207Some people DO actually BUY books.
Amazon will be deliriously happy to service your needs without you ever leaving your seat.
I only leave my seat for anot
January 3, 2007 - 23:34 ET by mandrakeI only leave my seat for another drink of scotch :)
Now, now
January 3, 2007 - 23:41 ET by acumenNow, now. What with socialist governments taking ever more (although it doesn't appear they are not spending on books), there is less and less to spend on one's enjoyment.....
On the bright side Mandrake's delimma could be a lot worse. I understand there is an equally long wait to get a life-saving operation in Canada, or most other medical procedures as well. Pssst - Mr. Steyn addresses that as well in "America Alone".
I pray it is not to late for our Canadian neighbors. Get the book Mandrake.....
Alright already! I'll get the
January 3, 2007 - 23:55 ET by mandrakeAlright already! I'll get the book. And yes, I'll agree that much of Canada's health care system sucks. But it is a myth that when it really counts it will let you down. I had to take my youngest daughter to ER recently and she was able to bypass all the usual paperwork and bull and get to a doctor directly...I was quite impressed.
The ER notwithstanding, I can
January 5, 2007 - 00:08 ET by UnsaneThe ER notwithstanding, I can't imagine many people being told they have to wait for basic procedures to be accomplished...ones that can BECOME emergencies...and being happy about it. I would prefer to pay and get it over with myself, emergency or no.
I have been to Toronto before, some years ago. Awesome city. :-)
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Unsane, I think we are basica
January 5, 2007 - 00:19 ET by mandrakeUnsane, I think we are basically agreeing with each other. Noone here is really happy with the the situation. There is enormous political inertia against any change. Hopefully Stephen Harper can do something. Time will tell.
On political inertia north and south of 49 deg. N
January 5, 2007 - 00:41 ET by UnsaneIf it is ANY consolation, Canada is not the only nation on the North American continent dealing with political inertia.
"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???." - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)
Yes, birthrate. Simple math
January 3, 2007 - 23:21 ET by NL207Yes, birthrate. Simple mathematics. Crudely represented, (birthrate -deathrate)*P = dP/dt. This is a familar relation to most calculus students. (birthrate -deathrate)*dt = dP/P. The integral is a natural log function. If the coefficient of dt is negative, that is, lifetime adjusted deaths exceed births, the Population function asymptotes to zero. Some people call zero population extinction.
The NEW Canadians do not share common culture with the OLD Canadians. They cannot since they were not raised Canadian. Therefore, in time, the foreign culture represented by the immigrants will replace that which was Canadian culture, unless the keepers of the old begin to have more children.
Then you do not agree that one measure of the health of a society or culture is its birthrate?
If you are a Scotsman and pleased to be a Scotsman, that is a fine thing. My Scotch all comes in a bottle, and lately it has become a damned expensive bottle.
How is this ranking derived?
January 3, 2007 - 15:19 ET by DarkCurrentHow is this ranking derived? I lived in Japan for 8 years and still visit at least yearly. I moved back to the US in the mid-90s precisely because the US has a better standard of living as I and my family weight the variables. On average Japan's economy has been almost completely flat since then, so the gap has gotten even larger.
The average US household has a higher income, lower prices and a cleaner and generally more liveable environment.
I'd say this ranking is subjective at best. In fact I don't know if a truely objective measurement is even possible.
(I live in China now and somehow have trouble with the Wikipedia link. Perhaps it's all explained there... )
I just looked at the list aga
January 3, 2007 - 15:28 ET by DarkCurrentI just looked at the list again and see Ireland ranked in 4th place. That makes me even more suspicious as to how these rankings are derived.
The longest stretch I've ever been in Ireland was 6 weeks in the summer of 2005, but I've been there at least 10 times (certainly more, but at least 10) in the last 10 years.
It a dull, boring place with bad food. Was that taken into consideration? Having experienced both, Japan should certainly be higher up than Ireland. And the US is still more desirable than Japan as a place to live, as immigration rates clearly show.
This list is useless.
I don’t consider myself uni
January 2, 2007 - 14:52 ET by JimboI don’t consider myself unique. There are many, MANY successful people in this country who worked their way through college.
I too believe the government has a role in providing an environment that supports its citizens. I would even say that it is their primary role. That does not mean, however, that the government has the right to control my business in such a way as to dictate what I need to pay my employees. If the people who work for me don’t like what they earn, there are many other business out there they can work for. If I am not paying a good performer enough and loose that employee as a result, shame on me.
And as for countries who have a higher regulated minimum wage, which pays the less qualified people even more, who do you think pays for that? The consumers. The citizens of that economy do. If that’s not a handout, I don’t know what is. And if that doesn’t drive inflation, then you need to revisit your economics textbook.
50 years of study on the mi
January 2, 2007 - 14:32 ET by MightyMouth50 years of study on the minimum wage.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
bk1955, you need to study eco
January 2, 2007 - 14:41 ET by Unsanebk1955, you need to study economics. An entry-level macroeconomics course would be a good start. If you really want to do something to help the poor AND the businesses (who by the way are not employment agencies), you would advocate dropping the minimum wage to zero and letting the market take care of it.
So, a living wage, huh? No such thing. My "living wage" would be quite high. I have a lot of expensive hobbies. Are you willing to subsidize that, being as compassionate as you are? Tell you what. Why not make the minimum wage $50 an hour and guarantee every American the vacation home of their choice?
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
I'll be happy to attend with
January 2, 2007 - 18:15 ET by bk1955I'll be happy to attend with you you. Your economic proposals are extremely idealistic. As I explained in my comment to Jimbo below, the market will not take care of it.
You seem to be charging me for compassion for excess. That is an interesting concept. You are free to support your expensive hobbies with your better than minimum wage earning potential. I don't equate needs such as shelter, food, clothing, utilities and companionship, with expensive hobbies. You are very generous with your offer of a $50 minimum wage. I support you in your efforts for its pursuit. It is likely you will need to compromise a bit. Probably down by more than 80%. Good luck.
So, bk, are you advocating &q
January 2, 2007 - 19:16 ET by MikeBSo, bk, are you advocating "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"? Who is to determine who needs what? No one is entitled to that which they did not earn. An uneducated, unskilled worker is not worth even the minimum wage of today, much less the proposed minimum wages. When a business contemplates whether or not to partake in a particular activity, they determine the cost and the benefits of that activity. If the cost is more than the benefit, the business does not engage in that activity. Therefore, if an uneducated or unskilled worker cannot produce more than what the company is forced to pay him/her, that worker is laid off, fired, or not hired in the first place. As was pointed out above, busninesses are not employment agencies, or, as I have pointed out before, businesses are not in business to provide jobs for anyone, they are in business to make money for their owners. If wage demands, whether of union or governmental origin, make it difficult to impossible to make a profit, the jobs go overseas where the business can make a profit. I think you need to take a macroeconomics course as was suggested above, because your grasp of economic concepts is sadly lacking.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Thanks!
January 2, 2007 - 19:59 ET by UnsaneWhy, thank you for acknowledging the absurdity of the government arbitrarily telling businesses what to pay people. The market is best equipped to take care of that, not you or the government.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Good question Unsane. The living wage
January 2, 2007 - 19:50 ET by SportPoliticsGood $50 question Unsane.
The living wage : Dems fantasy for votes.
The truth : Minimum wage is poverty wage.
I went and looked at the gov stats, and did some math, and at 5.15 an hour, a person working 2000 hours or 40 a week is at the poverty brink.
By the time they get their minimum wage to 7.50 or whatever they decide upon, with all the loss of purchasing power and inflation, they will be at the same place anyway, the brink of poverty.
So, Unsane, you had a great question. When the democrats stand up there and scream everyone should have a living wage all they have to do is legislate that, and we can all watch the USA's economy go into massive gyrations and insane inflation and then collapse or explode.
I don't know anywhere that even pays just minimum wage anymore. Most if not all places in this small city in Illinois went above 5.15 an hour years ago. Maybe it was an Illinois law, don't know, but that makes sense as Chicago area is amore expensive and that's 90% of Illinois' population.
I just see a minimum wage increase doing what it always does. Drives up all prices, food, gas, goods, transportation, everything. I'm not sure what percent, but it will be another excuse for everyone to raise prices and they will.
It will be like the cigarette tax that was raised 60 cents a pack here a few years back. They raised the price of cigs 60 cents immediately and put up a sign everywhere that the gov taxed it 60 cents more a pack and that's why they were doing it. In a week or two, they all raised it a dollar more a pack, and never said why. So, for our 60 cents in taxes, we got a 1.60 in price raising.
Same thing will happen in most areas as soon as they kick in the minimum wage increase. Prices in Illinois have already been skyrocketing since this Blagojevich. Everything is twice as much as when he got here, ALL the kids have state funded healthcare, the highways cost twice as much, license plates are near double, and the state budget is blown to bits, worse than when the last guy was booted, because Blagojevich cannot stop spending and making everyone in the state a social recipient of his great plan for free everything.
Our city is no better. It just shuckstered through a trick for 30 million in bonds, never voted upon, and lied about by the city attourney and an alderman. The rest of the city council loved it, great scam, no chance for anyone to complain since the public never knew in advance.
That's how it all works anymore, I'm sure. Smoke the budget and borrow 30 years out, in secret if need be. Inflate the money and the prices severly enough that in 5 years you can do it all over again. Whooo hoo it's a great ride.
I was going to reply to your
January 2, 2007 - 14:49 ET by Chris Normanbk, I was going to reply to your comment, but you know what? It's just not worth it, except to say it's none of your business what charities I support. I don't have to justify myself to you, and you've got a lot of nerve asking that question.
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
bk, are you too dense not to
January 2, 2007 - 18:16 ET by Evil Capitalistbk, are you too dense not to understand that minimum wage is not there to provide for two TVs, a new car and a house?
So should I understand your o
January 2, 2007 - 14:09 ET by bk1955So should I understand your objection to the report isn't the validity of the statement of the unfairness of paying a less than living wage, but to the tone you percieve with which it is reported.
My experience is kids whine when the nature of their request has a higher priority for them than for me. Authority figures give in just to stop the whining. I don't agree that the tone in the report is whining, but if it is, it may be appropriate.
fair
January 2, 2007 - 14:40 ET by iveseenitallI worked three jobs all my life and I had an excellent education. I'm glad that I worked so hard. Stop the "fairness" whine--life's not fair.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
Good for you! Of course lif
January 2, 2007 - 14:49 ET by bk1955Good for you! Of course life isn't fair, just look at how wild animals live. The one's born in a time of plenty who can pursue opportunities survive until old age limits their activites or a famine or flood kills them.
In my experience, the people who aren't bothered by the unfainess of life are the one's who benefit from it. My belief is one reason we are here is to help other people who don't have the capabilities and opportunites we have. It is what raises us above the rest of creation.
I'm glad you worked hard too, but are you saying that the hardest workers are the most rewarded? Wait a minute, if that happened wouldn't that mean life was fair? The people laboring for minimum wage probably work as hard or harder than you or me. They have had real wage reduction since 1976. Haven't they have earned a raise.
I have 6 employees earning mi
January 2, 2007 - 14:57 ET by JimboI have 6 employees earning minimum wage. I can state with absolute certainty, that NONE of them work half as hard as I do.
I also have positions that pay in excess of minimum wage. Any one of them can move into a spot if they want to and exhibit the qualities and traits commensurate with those positions. That would be the way for them to “earn a raise” as you put it. Not by the government saying I have to.
The governments already telling you
January 2, 2007 - 21:38 ET by SportPoliticsThe governments already telling you, as you are paying minimum wage to 6. If the minimum wage wasn't there, what would you attempt pay them per hour ? LOL
I mean you aren't paying minimum wage just by chance. If the government doesn't have the right to tell you, why are you caving to their demand ? I guess we both know the answer to that.
Your ignorance isn’t worth
January 2, 2007 - 21:43 ET by JimboYour ignorance isn’t worth responding to, but I will in an effort to embarrass you in front of everyone else.
Point one - If the minimum wage wasn’t there, I would be paying them what the market demanded. Try reading some of the other posts in this thread. You may find it enlightening and less embarrassing.
Point two - Why am I caving into the government’s demand? Because I am a law-abiding citizen, even though I don’t agree with it.
While Jimbo
January 2, 2007 - 21:55 ET by SportPoliticsWhile Jimbo, most employers are paying far more than the minimum. You go look at the mwage stats. 5%, about.
You want to go lower, good luck. Yer already at the bottom of the barrel.
If you had read my posts, you
January 2, 2007 - 21:59 ET by JimboIf you had read my posts, you would know that my business is in a State that already has the highest minimum wage in the country. I am not going to rehash the idea of a free market driving wage rates for the likes of you. Infact, I am going to take the high road (look the meaning up if you need to) and log off. Good night all.
Oh so sorry Jimbo
January 2, 2007 - 22:00 ET by SportPoliticsOh, so sorry Jimbo, I've overestimated those unwilling to better themselves.
US DEPT of LABOR
[ According to Current Population Survey estimates for 2004, some 73.9 million American workers were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.8 percent of all wage and salary workers.1 Of those paid by the hour, 520,000 were reported as earning exactly $5.15, the prevailing Federal minimum wage, and another 1.5 million were reported earning wages below the minimum.2 Together, these 2.0 million workers with wages at or below the minimum made up 2.7 percent of all hourly-paid workers.]
Ok, so 5 percent is too high, it's half that, including below minimum. So, the bottom of the barrel comment was a mistake, as well. LOL
Hey Jimbo, really, good luck.
On humanity
January 2, 2007 - 14:59 ET by UnsaneYou couldn't be more wrong. Humanity is not here to coddle and babysit others. In fact, I do that by being self-reliant and not being a lead weight on society; and that is something that gets increasingly more difficult to do because of socialistic do-gooders who think they have a claim to what I have.
What raises us above the rest of creation is self-awareness, pure and simple.
And it is time to look at reality. I worked for minimum wage...well over a decade ago. My employer quickly realized that he/she was shooting him/herself in the foot by continuing to pay me that, so I got raises. After awhile, I had determined that I had developed enough of a track record for another step up, and that doubled my pay. And so on. The point being is that contrary to your steadfast belief, almost no one in this country works for minimum wage for long. I did for a total of about six months.
As another poster noted, if you are above the age of 25 and are NOT making above minimum wage, you either are lazy or have zero ambition.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
You are sadly mistaken. You
January 2, 2007 - 18:35 ET by bk1955You are sadly mistaken. You are not a self reliant as you seem to percieve. Assuming you shop at a Supermarket, think about where the items stocked there come from. How many people have had a hand in getting them there? Include production, processing, inspection, transportation when you come up with an answer. How was your place of residence built? What do you drive? What would happen if you had a fire or flood or earthquake? You are as dependent upon total strangers you will never meet as you were on the members of your Military Service unit. You are a participant in society. I am sorry your life is challenging, but you misplace the blame. Your self-reliance is an illusion, you limit your growth potential by insisting on it.
Your pure and simple conclusion on self-awareness is erroneous. If you have had a relationship with a dog or a cat you can detect that they also have self-awareness. There are many elements that raise us above the rest of creation, including use of tools, language, and self awareness. Altruism is the only characteristic that is unique to humanity.
I really appreciate you sharing your minimum wage experience. My first job was for minimum wage. I worked for the summer and went back to High School. My next job was low, but not minimum, wage. I worked there while attending college, don't remember what raises I got. Your experience is valid, however, 80% of minimum wage workers are adults. I wasn't an adult when I was paid minimum wage, were you?
Your psychobabble notwithstan
January 2, 2007 - 20:22 ET by UnsaneYour psychobabble notwithstanding, I am self-reliant. I pay money I earn to others who earn their money to provide me goods and services. And sorry, I don't believe that allowing others to steal from me is growing, it is getting stolen from and tolerating getting stolen from.
Altruism NOT what is unique to humanity. I know your dream is to see a humanity that is organized into colonies and hives, but this is not the way humanity works. If you truly believe that much in altruism, I ask you why the Second World was NOT the wave of the future after all. By the way, dogs and cats and so on do not know that they were born and will some day die; humans know this all too well. Take that from someone who has been raised with and has owned dogs.
Oh, and yes, I was an adult when I worked for minimum wage. But you know why I'm not poor? I worked very hard, got raises, kept it in my pants, got educated, and saved 20% of my checks every week. Why is that so incredibly difficult for you to understand?
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Unsane...Your last sentence s
January 2, 2007 - 20:28 ET by Clear thinkerUnsane...
Your last sentence should be edited out. Why you may ask, well it's because you and I both know that bk is a Socialist at the very least, and these types never learn.
Clear
January 2, 2007 - 20:33 ET by BlondeBut....
Perhaps we should just call him/her a "Trot"?
It seems a tad more succinct to me, and more likely to send the subject over the old socialist edge....
But that's just me.
I had the trots once... hug
January 3, 2007 - 15:54 ET by Uncle JohnI had the trots once... huge drag.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
unasne -- Another end produ
January 2, 2007 - 20:45 ET by Jack Bauerunasne -- Another end product of a liberal arts education. Quasi-Marxist claptrap in, garbage out.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
But why is it that I got a li
January 2, 2007 - 20:58 ET by UnsaneBut why is it that I got a liberal arts education and never fell for the quasi-Marxist claptrap?
(Oh yeah. Checkpoints Alpha, Bravo, AND Charlie.)
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Economic Policy Institute
January 2, 2007 - 20:39 ET by BarberianThe Majority of the board of directors of the site you linked are Labor Union Officials.
Excellent source for your discussion!
Huh!!!
January 2, 2007 - 20:44 ET by misterbillYou are sadly mistaken. HUH? You are not a self reliant as you seem to percieve. HUH? Assuming you shop at a Supermarket, think about where the items stocked there come from. DUH? How many people have had a hand in getting them there? HUH? Include production, processing, inspection, transportation when you come up with an answer. DUH? How was your place of residence built? Cave! What do you drive?A one iron! What would happen if you had a fire or flood or earthquake? Me, personally?? You mean spontaneous combustion? You are as dependent upon total strangers you will never meet as you were on the members of your Military Service unit. HUH.HUH .HUH???!!
Geez louise what is he talking about? post verborrhea trauma!!!!
Again, let me repeat it - Min
January 2, 2007 - 18:36 ET by Evil CapitalistAgain, let me repeat it - Minimum wage is not supposed to provide for a house, a car, two TVs and PlayStation 3 or Xbox.
There is no such thing as a fair lwage. In fact, the only reason why any commercial transaction takes place is because both sides of the transactions are CONVINCED that they are getting the better half of the deal:
You give my company your TIME, do what I tell you to do and in exchange for that you get MONEY. You are going to get hired if and only if whatever you produce during that TIME is worth to me MORE than what I'm paying you.
Likewise, from your perspective, you are giving me TIME during which you do what I tell you to do and in exchange for that you are given MONEY. The only reason you are offering your services to me is because you think that I'm an IDIOT who is willing to pay you more for your time than your time is worth. If you are not convinced of that you are not going to offer me your services, rather you are going to look for a bigger idiot who is going to be willing to pay you higher amount.
If you produce exactly for amount I am supposed to pay you i still won't hire you because it would be a waste of resources ( such as space, power, donuts ) to keep you around as you don't produce in excess of what you cost.
Nicely put, EC. Some work
January 2, 2007 - 18:45 ET by lnthompNicely put, EC. Some work isn't worth $5.15/hr, regardless of who's doing it. Some work isn't worth $7.80/hr, which is Oregon's state minimum wage effective 01/01/07, so some workers are going to lose their jobs if they can't or won't do something more. I'm doing work that Intel tells me is worth almost $20/hr, and which I happen to think is a hell of a lot of fun, so I intend to stick around here for awhile and do some more!
LNTHOMP previously posting as LEENT. U.S. Navy (ret.)
I have enough money to last me the rest of my life. Unless I buy something.
What the *f* is a "livin
January 3, 2007 - 15:39 ET by DarkCurrentWhat the *f* is a "living wage"? How do you calculate it precisely? Give us the formula.
Then we can debate whether or not everyone or anyone should be automatically entitled to it. But we need to know how it's defined as step 1.
Can someone please explain to
January 2, 2007 - 14:15 ET by paperheadCan someone please explain to me how raising the minimum wage is actually going to help working families? I mean, where I live, even most fast food places have starting wages at $8.00 per hour simply because they can't find enough people willing to work for $5.15 an hour. Don't liberals know that just raising the wage just causes inflation. Are they so stupid to think that businesses won't raise their prices to produce the same amount of profit? I thought liberals were always the smartest people in the room.
For a justification for raisi
January 2, 2007 - 14:30 ET by bk1955For a justification for raising minimum wage see this http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuegui