Appearing on this Boxing Day edition of the Today show to plug tonight's airing of "In the Shadow of the American Dream," the latest in the “Tom Brokaw Reports” series, the former Nightly News anchor offered a variety of views on the subject of illegal immigration straight out of the amnesty-crowd playbook.
View video here.
Annotated excerpts:
- "It's not going to work to send everybody back."
Why not? And if sending illegals home isn't the solution, how about drying up the jobs here so they will have their own motivation to return home?
- "I don't think you can build the highest wall in the world and it will stop them from coming."
Really? How much would it cost to build, say, a high-tech, 20-foot tall/20-foot deep fence along the border, and how much of the illegal immigration would it stop? I'm guessing a lot.
- "They're filling jobs that Americans don't want to fill anymore."
Ah, the classic formulation. But says who, and at what wages?
- "You can't get high school kids to earn $14-16 to dig ditches and carry bricks and do the hard work. They don't want to do it. They'd rather be at their computer or work in fast food stores."
Really? High school kids won't work for $16/hour and would rather flip burgers for half that? Data please, Tom.
- "The other part of it is, we can't do this alone. Mexico has to play a big part of this. And Mexico is not much interested because these illegal immigrants across America are sending back an estimated $8 billion a year. So it's going to take, I think, the good efforts of all parties to get this resolved and Mexico has to be a big piece of that."
Except you just said - and history proves - that Mexico doesn't want to solve the problem. Which makes it our problem. To quote Mark Steyn, this sounds like a job for America, alone.
UPDATE: In claiming that Mexican immigrants remit $8 billion/year to Mexico, Brokaw understates the figure by a factor of three, according to this recent WaPo article. H/T to FReeper TomGuy.
Contact Mark at mark@gunhill.net
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.
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One need only looks at recent
December 26, 2006 - 08:44 ET by richflanjOne need only looks at recent headlines to see the intentional flaw in Brokaw's statements. The arrests at Swift opened up more than 1200 employment opportunities that citizens and legal residents didn't hesitate to fill. The way to stop illegal immigration is simple:
ENFORCE THE LAW.
Of course, in a liberal's world, that would be unfair and/or racist.....
Mark, thanks again for your I
December 26, 2006 - 09:09 ET by FastEdMark, thanks again for your Iraq reporting The "immigration problem" is going to be the BIG issue in '07. Problems may come about now that the 'new' congress seems to agree with the president, and establish a guest workers program. This may pass, but it would need to have some requirements for accountablility and penalties for being illegal! I'm thinking that most of our enlightened elected officials will NOT look to require anything, for fear of "hurting" the feelings of those who have broken the law, and what might be considered racial profiling. What they should remember though, is the backlash against the illegals and what they should really fear is the undocumented feelings of the majority of citizens - people know that illegal MEANS not-legal.
Now, let's sit back and hear from the ole tumble weed and how Toomy Brokow is soooo right in his analysis.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
immigration
December 26, 2006 - 09:27 ET by seejayAnother media-whore explaining "reality" to us idiots in flyover country.
His media bosses love the fact that 98% of illegal immigrants are Mexicans because to notice this makes us all racists! And a racist is the worst thing in the world right?
Well maybe it's time for the racists! Mexicans swarm our nation and we're not allowed to be angry because they're "Brown People." If they were from Germany I guess it would be OK to resent their invasion because they're from a "White Country!"
What would Mr. Brokaw's handlers tell him to "feel" about someone who wished to put an end to all aid to Africa? Anger! Anger at the racism because those people are Black! And, God forbid, just for the sake of argument, what would Mr. Brokow's position be toward one who would end all aid to Israel? "My God! Antisemitism," because they're Jewish.
How can anyone take these ACTORS seriously? How did we allow showbiz to become the authority on ANYTHING? Personally, I get a little offended by these manipulative frauds and look forward to the day when they are held responsible for the harm they've brought upon our nation.
So now liberals go from alleg
December 26, 2006 - 09:30 ET by The Real TonySo now liberals go from allegedly reporting news to now making news? Brokaw is no expert and if he is reporting, he needs to go back and learn how its done as he's just editorializing.
He's wrong on so many counts. "It's not going to work to send everybody back." Really..how do you know that Tom? This country mobilized millions of people and got them all around the world during WW2. You don't think we can round up and deport 10-20 million back over the border to Mexico in the same time period? He's daft.
Mexico wants and needs those people coming here to keep their economy afloat.
The reason that some teens don't want to work - for ANY wage - is mom and dad, not the job market. These kids get everything they want, when they want it and are handed it to them by mommy and daddy. If mom and dad want to raise their permanent dependents, let them. When mom and dad go, they will either have their inheritance or they will have nothing.
You only have to watch a few episodes of "Dirty Jobs" to see that there is no job in this country that someone won't do for a fair wage, some basic benefits and a chance to move up. Don't believe the pabulum that liberals spew; Americans will do any job necessary.
It's amazing to me that liberals want to keep illegals here anyway. They can't vote(yet) and they are a permanent underclass as long as employers can get away with paying them sub-par wages. Also, since illegals aren't reporting their income, they aren't being taxed. One would think that all that missed tax revenue would have liberals chomping at the bit.
It's very simple and it can be done in the stroke of a pen:
1. Enforce existing immigration laws.
2. Allow border patrol to do their job.
3. Penalties for anyone who hires or houses illegal aliens.
4. Since they are no political refugees, there is no asylum and therefore, daily buses and flights should be sending them back.
5. If a deportee is found back again, impose death penalty.
All of this can be funded by seizing any/all assets acquired through their illegal presence/work in this country, as it is all "ill-gotten gains." (This is currently done with other crimes, such as drug dealing, already.)
It's quite simple and should also be relatively self-supporting and should also create new jobs in this country.
The other most important thing is to pass a law similar to Mexico's regarding "guest workers."
Poof - problem gone.
Politicians and liberals are painting this with the brush that we have a situation we must live with. That is furthest from the truth.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
TONY-- GW -immigration
December 26, 2006 - 17:26 ET by misterbillMy biggest disappointment with GW is his passivity on illegal immigration. I have stood behind him on ALMOST every issue. He had to have his arm twisted to get him to do anything about illegal immigration. I agree with most of what you have written. I do not agree with the death penalty for illegal immigration. Instead they should stay in Mexico as lifelong representatives of the Democratic party.
PS I am guilty of the "get anything from Mom and Dad" accusation. Our son is 20 and he is just learning that he has to depend on himself. When we stopped giving him gas and pocket money- he went out and got a job. Holy Toledo-I am still in shock!!!!
Brokaw
December 26, 2006 - 09:39 ET by iveseenitallSend Brokaw, Kennedy, the Hollywood actors, the Democrats, and the rest of the MSM to live in the barrio for a week and tell them they have to stay until they do the right thing on immigration. The problem will be solved in a week. Limousine liberals are hypocrites of the first order.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
Brokaw needs to be deported b
December 26, 2006 - 09:43 ET by donsalesBrokaw needs to be deported back to Nebraska.....
Nowhere to Run....Nowhere To Hide.....
Whoa there now.. don't go pa
December 26, 2006 - 10:01 ET by rimskyWhoa there now.. don't go painting Nebraska like some kind of liberal factory or something. If you want to send him someplace, send him to friggin Mexico!
Whoa there now.. don't go pa
December 26, 2006 - 10:01 ET by rimskyWhoa there now.. don't go painting Nebraska like some kind of liberal factory or something. If you want to send him someplace, send him to friggin Mexico!
Just puhleeeeze get him out o
December 27, 2006 - 20:48 ET by bigtimerJust puhleeeeze get him out of Montana (along with Ted Turner and his ilk).....I detest the phony elitist bast*rd. They are helping destroy this state along with half of Hollywood and the east coast political leftists...the greenie weenies, lawyers, and unions are the enemy here and the brain-dead dem's here are just that...brain dead, they will never read, learn or see the real enemy and why the jobs have been lost in mining, logging, ect. for years and years.
Pathetic bunch of nit-wits all....and by the way Brokaw says Tester is a moderate....yeah right, and I am Queen of the Nile. Brokaw openly campaigned through his connections with the media with free time for Tester, one of the most liberal State Senators here, every chance he got...he can deny it all he wants, but it was obvious with an IQ over fourty.
Despicable.
Sorry I got off track about the illegal aliens there folks, but everyone here that knows me here knows how I feel....lol!
"If we ever forget that we are a Nation Under God....then we will be a Nation Gone Under." Ronald Reagan
Brokow is another case of 'arrogant' brain.
December 26, 2006 - 09:56 ET by acaiguanaBrokow is another case of 'arrogant' brain.
This sound more like a lecture than a report. Then again, is this the report, "Iraq Surrender Group' of the MSM on Immigration?
It would take a bit of doing to deport the millions in our country illegally.
Wonder if it would cost more than a fence?
ACA
...
Acaiguana says: "Ya can't win if ya don't play."
So, now the talking heads kno
December 26, 2006 - 10:02 ET by VT Con ManSo, now the talking heads know what will and will not work on immigration? These bloviating libtards need a reality check. This pontificating on the AM "news" shows is getting downright infuriating!!!
What has happened to news reporting? Just read the news and stay out of policy, arrogant morons.
What makes Brokaw such a damn
December 26, 2006 - 10:18 ET by rimskyWhat makes Brokaw such a damn expert? This is the question that most people won't ask themselves when they sit in front of their TV's to get their daily sound bite news. Too many people are too far gone, too infected with leftist spew to be able to even think of such a question. What, indeed, makes any of them experts? All they do is skim sound bite information about ANY of the issues of the day and suddenly they are the bottom line on it all. NO.. I don't think so!
what's wrong with m16's?
December 26, 2006 - 10:26 ET by CatherwoodIt never ceases to amaze me. Americans just don't get it. All the talk about the Mexicans seems to be low-key and overly sensitive. What we need to understand is this: parts of Calfornia are gone, New Mexico is gone, Texas is almost gone. This is no minor social problem; this is an invasion of the US by intruders who have no intention of becoming Americans. They want to be loyal Mexicans and live in the United States and have American citizens pay for their lives. I live in a community where this is true. Mexicans clog the schools and hospitals; they pay no taxes or medical bills. They use the local emergency room as their own clinic and then scoff at the idea of paying even the smallest amount. They trash our roadsides to show lack of respect. I've seen all this first hand. This is a war and we aren't fighting because most Americans see it as being not their problem. If it was up to me I would put armed guards on the border with orders to shoot. Those of you who think differently are in for a rude awakening somewhere down the line. If you don't believe that parts of America are already gone, try visiting Los Angeles.
You are absolutely correct Ca
December 26, 2006 - 10:36 ET by The Real TonyYou are absolutely correct Catherwood and I'm glad you put it in no-uncertain terms. Listen up people.
I was just recently in the ER at the local hospital. Before they would see my wife, I had to discuss insurance, my ability to pay and had to sign numerous forms, all just to get in line.
A Mexican man, his immigration status unknown to me, was right behind me. He walked in, could not speak English and they immediately got an interpreter for him. He had no money and no insurance and did not appear to sign any forms.
After my wife got in to see the doctor, this guy was put on the gurney next to us, separated by a curtain. Apparently he had a bad cold and an STD. He was treated and as we went out, I had to pay (since I have an HDHP) I had to pay all of it and deal with my insurance carrier. He didn't make any payment and had his prescriptions filled. I saw no money change hands and no papers were signed (that I could see).
How the hell does that happen? Liberals and their policies. I'm guessing that he was an illegal alien and probably a day laborer; both illegal, but he just got at least 600.00 in free medical care and probably an 80.00 prescription, all for nothing and on our dime. My wife and I were treated like interlopers and hustled through the system after my wallet was drained.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
Here's another sad tale about
December 26, 2006 - 10:47 ET by BlondeHere's another sad tale about an illegal immigrant draining the public health coffers (although one must read halfway down to find out he was here illegally).
Notice the article studiously ignores how much the medical treatment cost the community.
After the holiday wishes to t
December 26, 2006 - 11:18 ET by FastEdAfter the holiday wishes to the fair haired one, and notice that all the caring libs who DIDN'T poney-up the air-fare so's this hard worker could die in his won house! Nor the apologies from all those folks who "work hard" but don't offer any compensation for their medical care.
Brings up a point - if all of these "guest" workers (btw - I didn't invite them) were so honest, and as hard working as they say they are, how come they NEVER seem to offer to pay their way? or is this ANOTHER reportage oversight by the msm (Lsm) to push their agenda?
Here's a thought for all of the biggies at the msm - Why not publish a hiring call for "undocumented pressmen" or "non-union cameramen" and see what would happen with the unioins! Have some guts guys, lower your costs and back-up your agenda!
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
Catherwood, Real Tony.. you
December 26, 2006 - 10:55 ET by rimskyCatherwood, Real Tony.. your posts are real life gut checking horrors of what illegal immigration has done, and will continue to do to our country. I live in NYC, and I can attest to the thickening element of immigrants, much of it, I suspect, being illegal. I'm not native to NYC, so this problem, I think, is more apparent to me vs those that have lived here all their lives, because for them it has been more of a gradual change, which they have unfortunately grown to accept.
you would have to see it
December 26, 2006 - 14:47 ET by CatherwoodTony
I could write a book on the things like you described. Stuff like that happens all the time here. Our hospital even had to close onnce after its resources were depleted by Mexicans legal and illegal who refused to pay their bills. How did the country solve the problem and reopen the hospital? They initiated an addon to our property taxes. Now every taxpayer in the county pays about $50 a year subsidize the medical care of people who refuse to pay many of whom could pay something but won't because they feel they are entitled. And, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Our schools are over 60% Mexican most of whom are illegal. They are given tutors if they don't speak enough English. Teachers are told not to fail them even though they can't pass simple history courses. It's not that they can't, they won't. Learning American history or civics is not what they are about. Our local jails have over 80% Mexican inmates who are in mainly for drug offenses and domestic violence. I have a friend who is a deputy sheriff. He says half his time is spent pursuing methedrine dealers and users. Our local verterinarian was killed by an illegal. The killer escaped to Mexico. Local law is still trying to have him extradited but the Mexican government will not arrest him and send him back because the death penalty is in play. Public areas near our rivers and lakes are now clogged with trash. It seems the illegals in order to get even with the man have started a campaign of throwing their trash in public places to protest the cost of the landfill. Our sleepy little country community is no longer. It's now a battle ground between the locals and the Mexicans. Many of the locals have lefti including most all of the professional people. the only indegenous locals left here are the farmers and ranchers.
catherwood--
December 26, 2006 - 17:55 ET by tumbler_2007You ARE here writing a book. Look at your post; it drags on and ON. Yet, you speak of great things you hardly understand. I'm tempted to simply say you're lying. Would it shock you, or make you angry?
Why? MANY people tell you lies about the illegal aliens around their area. PLAIN LIES! How about some truth? Does anybody tell the truth about them? I do, but so what? Nobody cares for the truth here. First: It's a MYTH, how they are breaking the hospitals. How do I know this? Because there isn't a head-count of the indigents who come into an emergency room or clinic. No one's asked if he's an illegal. No proof is needed. You may be busting a hospital overworked by LEGAL citizens who never pay the bill. They just don't have insurance, Cathy.
Do you hear about the undocumented Mexicans around San Diego County who are routinely assaulted where they hide, in canyons and riverbottoms, in bushes? Homeless, who work in the fields by day? A man & his young son, beaten half to death with iron rebars, by white American teenagers? You never hear about them. Just a little paragraph in the news. No one even cares. Then if I, anyone mentions racism-- God!!! The screams can be heard to China; "WHAT RACISM ???" You don't believe it because you haven't been treated like dogs. On account of your country of origin. Are YOU innocent? Let me guess.
Okay, old man.Prove that wha
December 26, 2006 - 18:15 ET by BlondeOkay, old man.
Prove that what Catherwood states is a lie. How can he not know the situation in his own community? So why don't you prove, with sources, how these illegals all pay for their own health care.....at no cost to anyone?
You sling alot of words around here, tumbler, without one shred of proof.
Go ahead tough guy, prove one single thing you've said, with references. One. One time.
It'll be a first for you.
BTW, I'll up the ante. Can you answer without calling me a white supremacist or a Nazi this time?
catherwood can prove it
December 26, 2006 - 19:07 ET by tumbler_2007Blonde:
Catherwood has never disrespected me, as you did more than once. Therefore I haven't said he/she lies. I said I'm tempted to say that. I know YOU lie, without a doubt.
My point is, about Catherwood. You can SAY illegals are busting those hospitals and public services. But how do you prove that? No-- You assume because those ethnic types come in for free services, they're mostly illegal aliens. Without the proof. They could well be visitors here for two weeks from the interior of Mexicio. Or, they could be LEGALLY naturalized, but unable to buy insurance. You haven't any proof the cause is just illegal aliens over-burdening the system. (In fact, it might be so. But you cannot prove it. You just proceed to say so, on RACIAL grounds. -- Profiling?)
I know if I were short of funds without insurance, I'd go to an ER and get treatment. No questions asked. So would you, in those circumstances. But if your surname is Miller or Gordon, who wonders? If mine is Chavez or Ramirez, you assume I'm illegal. Yet I'm an American citizen. Do I have to prove it to Catherwood, before getting medical attention? I guess he/she thinks so. That's an American characteristic. Thinking you should seem an American if you have blonde hair and blue eyes ONLY. Others are suspect.
I have posted numerous links
December 26, 2006 - 20:02 ET by BlondeI have posted numerous links to prove to you the cost of providing services for illegal immigrants, which you dismiss.
Yet you continue to make idiotic statements, without providing one shred of proof or evidence. Who is the liar, tumbler?
That would be YOU. You lose, again, loser.
Careful flaxen hair, he's tro
December 26, 2006 - 20:52 ET by FastEdCareful flaxen hair, he's trowing fast balls (see another post) and I think he's got something headed for that coiffe of yours, and it's not wrapped with leather.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
No worries, Ed.He'd have to h
December 26, 2006 - 21:03 ET by BlondeNo worries, Ed.
He'd have to have a point first, before he ever attempted to make one.
Laughing. ;-)
blonde's shred of evidence
December 27, 2006 - 13:46 ET by tumbler_2007You posted links and never proved diddly squat. Don't flatter yourself that you're into any truth, Blonde.
*Yawn*
December 27, 2006 - 14:57 ET by Blonde*Yawn*
Blonde, you disagree with the
December 28, 2006 - 00:34 ET by MikeBBlonde, you disagree with the 70-year-old idiot (his words), therefore you must be lying, racist, or stupid (or any combination of these). The tumbleweed is infallible in his Jovian pronouncements on illegal immigration. If you don't believe me, just ask him. It matters not that someone would have first-hand experience or documented facts. If it offends tumbler's sensitivities, then it must be false.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
"Why? MANY people tel
December 26, 2006 - 18:24 ET by ckc1227"Why? MANY people tell you lies about the illegal aliens around their area. PLAIN LIES! How about some truth? Does anybody tell the truth about them? "
I know one person for sure who doesn't tell the truth about them, but I won't name any names(cough cough tumbler cough cough).
Please excuse my cough. With all the third world mystery illnesses brought here by our esteemed guests from the south, there is no telling what I have.
"First: It's a MYTH, how they are breaking the hospitals. How do I know this? Because there isn't a head-count of the indigents who come into an emergency room or clinic."
Well, if there is no head count, how do you know its a myth? The answer is you don't. You're probably right though, I'm sure all the Mexican patients who go through these hospitals are probably legal. What the hell do the people working at these hospitals know? I'm sure you're better informed on who their patients are than they are. I'm betting that the estimated 12-20 million illegals here are also really legal, which means we don't have an illegal immigration issue at all.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..................................
see it everyday
December 27, 2006 - 07:46 ET by CatherwoodThe things I mention in my post are not lies at all; I have no reason to lie. If you don't believe me, that's fine. I invite you to do a search on border hospitals in Arizona, Texas and New Mexico. Look into the requests from the hospitals to the federal government for financial aid to help offset the free care given to illegals who, for example, come across the border for medical care, especially for free care for having babies. Check into the term 'anchor baby' and see what you come up with. The core idea in my post was to convey my amazement that Americans in general have no idea what is going on when it comes to realizing the threat posed by illegals. The hospital thing is just part of it.
Illegals and the problems they cause are not mythical. They are very real. You, I think, are either naive or overly defensive when it comes to dealing with the reality of illegals. If these illegals were more accepting to the idea of becoming Americans, things might not be so bad. But, they have no intention of accepting any American ideals. They are Mexican and they wear that on their sleeve. I apologize for going on so long. Some attention spans are longer than others.
Tumbler, let me say this. W
December 28, 2006 - 09:31 ET by The Real TonyTumbler, let me say this. What I posted is my actual experience and I believe I left enough disclaimers to illustrate that while I may not know the whole truth, I do know what I saw with my own eyes.
As for Catherwood, what is happening there is exactly happening here where I live and they have made it clear. They have been numerous town meetings, county meetings and open-forum meetings at the local Chamber of Commerce that address that the hospital system is failing due to the number of illegals that they MUST treat regardless of their ability to pay anything at all and the hospitals don't even ask them for money.
My property taxes have been raised 80% this year!!! What caused the increase? Was it all related to my property appreciating 80%....no. It is going to pay for the hospital system, and the school system. While I'm not involved in the school system, my friends with children in the local schools all note that the massive increase if from Mexican children and the additional costs of translators and ESL (English as Second Language) support.
I can tell you another thing. You have a point about there being other people that don't pay their hospital bills. I know. I was in the "recovery" business for years but you omitted a very important point; the local hospitals are legal required NOT to track indigents/illegal aliens who come in for treatment. That's why they are not tracked and counted. If that were not the case, you would find that the VAST majority of ER treatment is for illegal Mexican aliens.
Your "boo hoo" story about some getting attacked is a criminal issue and likely to happen anywhere to anyone. The same can not be said about any of us going to an ER for treatment.
If the f*cking media was honest and do a real investigation, they would find and report what is really happening; the fiscal burden of illegal aliens is quickly draining resources while they offer nothing in return and it far outweighs the alleged benefits that these euphemisically termed "undocumented workers" create.
But no, every lousy MSM media story is a "tragedy" about some wonderful person who gosh heck is having a rough go of it, through no fault of their own.
If they are that hardworking, why couldn't they do it the right way and get here legally? If they did, they would have the rights that legal citizens and residents have and there are protections for them, like all of us. But don't ask me for support, or pity, for what are clearly and legally criminals. I'm already forced to support and subsidize by the failure of the Federal Government (not just Bush, for you lurking liberals) to enforce existing laws and to forcibly pick my pocket to cover expenses for them...and they aren't even mowing my damn lawn.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
catherwood---Agreed
December 26, 2006 - 13:31 ET by misterbillcatherwood---Agreed. I live in Georgia--it is one of the states that has some of the largest population growth in the US. Nothing like the border states though. I have, since I signed in to NB for the first time harped on losing America from within. The part that really scares me though is that I am coming to believe that a lot of Americans want it that way. My best friend feels that illegal immigration is OK because his father came from Italy under the id of a friend who had passed away. I said to him that I didn't see boatloads of thousands of Italians landing every week. He still didn't agree. I am posting another post in the add comments of this blog to share information I heard two nights ago from an Atlanta business man re:immigrants.
already gone
December 26, 2006 - 14:51 ET by CatherwoodMost of the Southwest US is already gone; it's just a matter of time before English there is not the language and lawlessness prevails. Most liberals think this is all just conservative talk but it isn't. I live the reality of the Mexican takeover of parts of the US every day. They're here, they're staying and they have no intention of becoming Americans.
C - don't let tumbler hear th
December 26, 2006 - 14:59 ET by FastEdC - don't let tumbler hear those words, he just might blow a gasket. You're singing to the choir here, and what others fail to understand, there is a movement to "take back" what was taken from Mexico - and that's most of the south west and California, course I'd give up hollywood real fast!
And I agree, let's start asking for "some" kind of payment before ANY medical or educational aid is given - how long will it take for the well-spring to end if MONEY is needed? Free-loaders, all kinds, legal and illegal, should be loaded free on to a truck to where they came from. It's time to derail the gravey train.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
Brokaw is just another MSM el
December 26, 2006 - 11:12 ET by GalvanicBrokaw is just another MSM elitist perpetuating the myths he broadcast as fact over his TV career. As others have already pointed out here, those myths are easily shattered.
hi, NewsB family
December 26, 2006 - 13:14 ET by tumbler_2007Hi, Merry Christmas & Happy Noo Year,
Mr. Finkelstein is well-aware of my own feelings about this subject. So are many others, who nevertheless fail to see the importance of my opinions, and won't even attempt to understand my points.
Tom Brokaw turns me off absolutely. I won't pay a minute's attention to the guy ever since the old Dukakis campaign. When I realised forever he's nothing but a narcissistic wanker.
Yet, I say much the same as he regarding those two elements of the illegal immigrant quandary. (Quandary it IS; and will continue to be.) NOTHING will be solved by a fence. No matter how high tech, how tight or how swell. Fah gettabouttit!
As well as, the plethora of unfillable, unwanted and longstanding JOBS which are never going to be given a second look by Americans. They exist. Do NOT fall over in a wank-swoon over the case of Swift & Co. Those were basically good jobs not unfillable by legal applicants. Many good jobs do exist which are routinely filled by able, hard-working citizens. I've filled these myself, and I was born an American. I also knew a few illegal Mexican immigrants who could drive a truck, pour cement, run a kitchen, etc., etc.,
But there's STILL a vast number of occupations that illegals alone will accept. Out of sheer necessity. I don't need tom Brokaw to tell me about 'em; I KNOW men who have done those jobs. I also know able-bodied American citizens who will NOT. They find them too "draining"-- if you know what I mean. These guys would much rather hang by a liquor store cadging small change, or sittin on their ass with big cardboard placards at a corner: "Will work for food." Except they WON'T work. They'll mooch. I still feel for them, good Americans from all walks of life. It's tough being an alcoholic without a job.
Just think about it, my self-absorbed, supercilious Pals. ONE TIME put yourself or your children in the shoe of a man who makes a living groveling in the dirt under the sun; rather than steal, or loaf. Then tell me how desirable the jobs are. Jobs ordinary Americans turn down. Don't speak semi-honestly to me about this. Be honest with yourselves.
I know that this overwhelms y
December 26, 2006 - 13:22 ET by UnsaneI know that this overwhelms you with searing pain to read this, much less understand this, but: if they come here LEGALLY, I have no problems and will welcome them like a long-lost brother/sister regardless of where they came from. If they come here illegally, then they broke the law by coming here and MUST be sent back to wherever they came from.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
dear usane
December 26, 2006 - 16:46 ET by tumbler_2007Let's just understand; my opinion isn't dependent on what you think. You're free to believe anything you please.
I'm agreeing here with Tom Brokaw (a man I really dislike) about key issues relevant to ILLEGAL immigrants. What you like or NOT isn't relevant. --Keep on keeping on, get as far away from my POV as possible, you don't influence me one iota. Sorry!
Fences will not harm me. Nor will I ever need a job cutting corn or washing pots and pans. Illegal immigrants certainly DO take jobs like these; and American citizens DO NOT feel obligations to work them either. THAT is what's relevant in the discussion we're having now. You feel it necessary to "teach" me the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL. But I already know the difference. So does everybody else in this forum. You belabor the obvious just trying to quibble with me. I know it's ME, since I'm ALONE on the side of compassion and love for the destitute; legal and otherwise.
No one else here cares. You are all swapping high-fives because Swift & Co hired a new crew without helping illegals (this time). So you figure Tom Brokaw is wrong, and me too.
Tom is RIGHT, and I am as well. You are all wrong. Bottom line; get a new grip on your agenda, that one's a non-starter.
"I know it's ME, since
December 26, 2006 - 17:11 ET by Roger the Shrubber"I know it's ME, since I'm ALONE on the side of compassion and love for the destitute; legal and otherwise."
I bet that cross gets heavy after awhile, doesn't it, El Guapo?
just another good cross,
December 26, 2006 - 18:17 ET by tumbler_2007Yeah, el goon, a cross can be carried without shame. It's not too heavy. I feel compassion and love, I do. When an underdog is despised by others, I pray for him, not for his tormentors. Just hope you don't object, during this blessed season of love.
You've been blinded by your o
December 26, 2006 - 20:46 ET by FastEdYou've been blinded by your one-theme - we don't dispise the underdog - we just want those who have broken the law, to pay the freight. ILLEGAL means breaking the law. If you or I do it, here or in any other country, we go to jail or sent home. Why can't we ask for the same kind of treatment?
Oh, and how do we, asking the law to be enforced, become tormentors? And being the compassionate person you say you are, where are our prayers? And yes. I do object when you try to be the holier-than-thou - and as in another post - I HAVE walked in the other shoes, and my daughter has seen the mistreatment, doled out by the very people you want to defend.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
Now I know you... you're a
December 27, 2006 - 02:23 ET by liberal_bug_zapperNow I know you... you're a card carrying member of "Reconquista of Aztlan".
Which is why.... we need to deport you and your whole group back to Mexico and reclaim our land from you. We will do it sooner or later... if we wait too long, it will just get bloody. So I hope we do it sooner. No need to have an outright war. But people like you and your soft invasion are going to force our hands... then you'll scream it's our fault. Typical.
Get out of my country tumbler.... I don't respect you or your heritage. Get out!
If you're not a part of Reconquista of Aztlan, it's really hard to tell you apart from them and you'd better start siding with your fellow Americans before we don't care any longer and just label you.
____________________________________________________
"These are the times that try men's souls." ~ Thomas Paine
another self-absorbed koock
December 27, 2006 - 13:59 ET by tumbler_2007Dear zappie:
You sure ARE labelling an American to suit your agenda of hatred.
It's your hatred for Mexicans reflected in the diatribe against so-called Aztlan. If you understood the reality of these Beavis-Buttheads activist groups you would realize what they truly represent.
They're campus radicals and neighborhood gangbangers, not legitimate representatives of our communities. And guess what they hate about YOU--? The selfish notion you parade around, that this is YOUR country! May I inform you, Pal: You don't own this country. It covers many nationalities and ethnic groups besides your white supremacist gonzo Americans. You do NOT represent America at large; you're a citizen, that's ALL. Don't say "My country" and tell me to leave, since it's MY country and always will be. I'm ashamed of Aztlan, don't associate me with them. YOU LEAVE, Buddy. Go back to Dogpatch where you come from, Hillbilly.
You sound like them. So pro
December 27, 2006 - 18:25 ET by liberal_bug_zapperYou sound like them. So prove that you're not. Otherwise.... get the hell out of MY country. Because what you are advocating is what the Aztlan group wants... the invasion and reclaiming of the southern US for Mexico.
Prove you're not one of them and stand up for legal immigration. That means, stand up for the enforcement of laws that the illegals are breaking. Otherwise, my former statement stands.
Oh, and I don't hate Mexicans.... I think I might hate you though since you're an idiot. But I don't have a reason to hate Mexicans in general.... as long as their guests in our country, I welcome them. And if a Mexican immigrates to our country legally.... I'll also welcome them. They cross the border in the middle of the night and steal a job, steal health care, have anchor babies, I'll despise them and want to see them frog marched back over the border.
Do you get it... or do I need to draw pictures?
____________________________________________________
"These are the times that try men's souls." ~ Thomas Paine
I'm as pasty as they come and
December 26, 2006 - 22:26 ET by UnsaneI'm as pasty as they come and I washed pots and pans, tumbler. It paid and I needed the money. And when they asked if I could prove my legal right to work in the United States, I have proof in spades!
And once again, you are taking a dim view of the U.S. immigrant population. Are you HAPPY to see them do nothing but cutting corn and wash pots and pans?
Reread my post above. You seem to be having some severe difficulties with reading comprehension. I didn't even type that post with Cyrillic letters as I have been known to do in the past.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Tumbler, none said that life
December 26, 2006 - 13:26 ET by Dan The Man 2Tumbler, none said that life was easy or fair. We just want our citizens to have a fair shake at jobs and sevices, like the Swift plant. People will take jobs if they need or want it bad enough. And if they cant make enough money then they are free to better themselves and try for better jobs. That is what makes America great is teh freedom to be able to fail or make it really good or anywhere in between.
In the constitution it gives us that freedom, but the constitution does not say it gives non citizens taht freedom in our country.
Build a wall and build it tall, build it long and build it strong.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.
tumble dude - you never addre
December 26, 2006 - 13:57 ET by FastEdtumble dude - you never address the illegal vs legal. You speak of people who DON'T want to work, vs people who will do anything to work. You have said nothing about the legality of the situation.
Why is OUR problem that any other country will NOT help their own citizens? Posted before, God bless these folks for wanting to come to the greatest country in the world, but do it LEGALLY! You say no-one wil do the job that these people will do - if that were SO true, then why can't these folks get the proper documents to do those jobs? Is that so hard, or has their government decided to "unload" them on the USA, in order to get their "undesirables" out of the way?
There is an unintended cosequence to having illegals work, and get accepted into the workplace. Because of our largess, they can get FREE medical care, just by showing up at a hospital, however, the well that used to pay the bills, has dried up. Now there is NO medical care for anyone, those who can affford as well as those that can't. And if you care, that includes citizens, who you say, don't want the jobs. Another unintended consequence is the backlash that is affecting LEGAL immigrants. Because of illegals, a natural human behavior takes over and everybody looks at everyone else with a little different eye.
So, from one self-absorbed, supercilious pal to another, when we talk of illegals, I have walked in "others" shoes, I've taken those jobs that you say Americans don't want. And, I've seen my daughter NOT get any job, because the line of illegals didn't have the courtesy or the cultural where-with-all, to make room for a wheelchair.
So, from now until whenever, take your sanctimonious, liberal, do-gooder, leave the citizens behind and cater to the illegals, and . . .
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
So, El Guapo, since, I am suc
December 26, 2006 - 14:09 ET by Roger the ShrubberSo, El Guapo, since, I am such the self-absorbed and overly-proud evil American I might not grasp what you're saying, you are saying that only ILLEGAL immigrants can fill these jobs that we lazy, drunken bums in America cannot fill? If a Mexican comes into this country LEGALLY, they suddenly become too good for these jobs?
Your arguments, as usual, are muy estupido.
Thank you, btw, for the "Three Amigos" tie-in, using "plethora", El Guapo.
roger
December 26, 2006 - 17:36 ET by misterbillroger--<sarc> oh you are such a racist~!! You are probably a blue-eyed blond with pale skin. OK now that that BS is out of the way--can I tell you how these poor people nned the work and they only committed nearly one million sex crimes.In Mexico there is no such thing as rape--they call it assault with a friendly weapon. <sarcoff>
The nearly one million sex crimes is an actual number I have posted here before. Just as Cuba once did, Mexico is sending us their unwanted criminals in the midst of the hard working honest ones who come here. Enforcement of the laws of immigration will greatly reduce that.
PS For such a prejudiced guy you post a great report!
Sieg Heil, baby!
December 27, 2006 - 11:35 ET by Roger the ShrubberSieg Heil, baby!
got to explain it again
December 29, 2006 - 16:17 ET by tumbler_2007Explain it once more for Roger the Brshusser,
We were referring to the plethora of menial jobs all over our country for which no one except the desperately poor ever apply. Not that there were never poor Americans. We know there are: on welfare and pickin up aluminum cans on the street.
I mean jobs on lonely ranches without pickup trucks. Jobs in restaurants pearl-diving and bussing dishes. Cuttin grass for affluent American families, weeds and yard-cleaning. Picking the lettuce and celery out in mudfields, scrubbing toilets in fleabag motels. All while hiding out from the immigration officials. Laying low, and never complaining about the pay.
While we have myriads of unemployed citizens on welfare. Packing heat in the hoods, and panhandling at the liquor store. Pimps and gangsters who; if you suggested they go work in the ditches irrigating crops might kick you in the balls without a word. THOSE are the ones who won't apply for menial jobs. Remember, they grew up Americans. You PRETEND not to know who we're referring to? YOU? When have you ever pounded the ground looking for a job in a taco stand? Mexican illegals do it, but you're too proud. El Tonto--!
Tumbler, sorry pal but I have
December 28, 2006 - 09:43 ET by The Real TonyTumbler, sorry pal but I have got to call "bullshit" on this post. Sorry, its all bullshit. Anyone, can produce one or two examples of an American who may be lazy, shiftless, or alcoholic. That means nothing. By the way, alcoholism is an illness and there is treatment for it and if you have it while employed and admit it, you cannot be fired for it, unless you did something wrong before you admitted it. Any HR rep can tell you that.
As for your other remarks, I did some of those miserable, back-breaking jobs too, sometimes holding two or three jobs at a time to make ends meet and ensure that the roof over my head stayed there and I had something to eat. That doesn't give me any greater virtue that anyone else. Oh one big f*ucking difference....I was LEGAL while cleaning out greasetraps, doing landscape work and pouring cement, and the government made goddamn sure to take a chunk of my wages out in taxes to keep them running.
The difference is the illegal alien may be doing the same back-breaking work but he is getting paid off the books and therefore is making more than I was at the same job, while getting free medical care. Big f*cking difference.
I also see a lot of illegal Mexicans here not doing s*it themselves but sucking Coronas from a paper bag all day or shaking down younger/smaller Mexican illegals for money to have a "spot" at the day labor roadside congregation.
You are the one that needs to take a long hard and honest look at yourself and what you think of the situation..and of us here.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
Mark -NB- some recent input
December 26, 2006 - 13:46 ET by misterbillMark -NB- some recent input-- I spent a couple of hours on Friday evening sharing drinks and conversation with a new relative(by marriage). He is a project manager for a major electrical contractor in the Atlanta area. We entered the grim, dark area of illegal immigrants on the job. He was all in favor them. I got the old story about taking jobs Americans don't want. His point was (and valid, IMO), that his first hand opinion was more accurate than any number of articles I may read. He told me his latest experience. He said that he had approached a local high school and had signed on 8 students to enter the electrician program.He said that after a few weeks, all of them had dropped out. He pointed to the fact that my son did not want to enter a trade. He said that he had many Mexicans on his job site and they were very hard working. He said that if he had to depend on American laborers he would have to shut down his project. I will not spend the space to list my rejoinders about the overall and long-term effect,but here is the issue:
This man is opposed to illegal immigration. His position is that the border must be secured, and yet he feels he needs the legal immigrant labor to find people who will work hard for him. In closing he feels that the only dependable workers he can find in unskilled construction are Mexicans. This attitude prevails among others of my friends (esp. those who own their own businesses.) I was told--"hey , you're retired, things are not the same as they were just a few years ago."
What say you NBers????????????
I have long thought America h
December 26, 2006 - 13:59 ET by Roger the ShrubberI have long thought America has raised a generation of candy-assed sissies who cannot deal with any adversity, have little physical skills, all fine products of our fine educational system. A generation of spoiled, lazy slobs who feel they are entitled to everything they want, but do not want to earn it.
I am all for immigrants coming to this country, living the American dream. Just come to this country LEGALLY.
Oh, the minds that are simila
December 26, 2006 - 14:41 ET by FastEdOh, the minds that are similar - because our parents (boomers that is) grew-up through the Depression and WW2, they took it upon themselves to "not let my child want, the way I did". That brought about the mess of the 60's. I was there and scratched my head, thinking "who said it was a right to have everything, and not work for it". Then, as us boomers got to be child friends, instead of parents, we got our "spoiled, lazy slobs, entitlement thinking yahoos". What this country needs is a good swift kick in the ass, but then we'd be in court for child endangerment, cruelty to children (20 and 30 somethings) and unusual punishment ot the shoes we used to place that kick.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
Yep, as usual, Ed, great mind
December 26, 2006 - 14:53 ET by Roger the ShrubberYep, as usual, Ed, great minds think alike!
Legal is correct
December 26, 2006 - 17:23 ET by tumbler_2007My own views are that all legal immigrants take (A no-brainer.) preference. Doesn't matter whether or not he'll take a menial job. If he/she is legal and wants to pick cotton, why Sure! If he's legal and goes to school and becomes an engineer, so much the better. I don't think Tom Brokaw disagrees.
We aren't talking about them. We speak here of those who came illegally to work. You claim they have no demonstrable job to do, because any American will take it when it's available. Which is clearly your own opinion, and nothing but a pipe dream. Americans will NOT work in the ditch-digging and dish-washing fields. They do NOT take jobs as housekeepers in flea-bag motels, as Mexican illegal girls do. They do NOT, you can't prove they do, and bottom line, stop playing that dumb broken record.
Furthermore, fences cannot end the influx of more illegal entrants. PLUS: a fence will accomplish nothing for removing 12 million illegals already in the country. It's money wasted. Tom is right about that as well. You just don't have a clue what you're blowing smoke about. But you never stop playing the expert. You in particular, Roger. Calling me el guapo seems humorous to you. Does it make me or anybody else give a shit? NO. Call me anything you want. But at least listen to what I say. I'm giving you the straight skinny ABSOLUTE; about the illegal immigration problem of our country.
Right now I can assure you and your cohorts; there will have to be another amnesty program, with strict conditions. No one's going to deport 12 million folks. Sorry to disappoint you, Chum.
You are without a doubt eit
December 26, 2006 - 18:54 ET by ckc1227You are without a doubt either the dumbest person posting here, or you are a liar, either to us or yourself. I'll leave it to you and others to decide.
"Americans will NOT work in the ditch-digging and dish-washing fields."
Not sure what "dish washing" fields is, but a close friend owns his own pipe laying company, which means he runs a "ditch digging" company. He has 2 crews of 5 each, totalling 10. Every one of them is legal. He is one of 20 different independant contractors who do this work for a larger company. 95% of those hired by these contractors are legal. So much for that "job Americans won't do".
"Furthermore, fences cannot end the influx of more illegal entrants."
And no one ever said it would. Stopping 90 percent would be more than acceptable, and would be considered a success. If we used your 100% percent rate to determine success, no one would ever be successful at anything.
"PLUS: a fence will accomplish nothing for removing 12 million illegals already in the country. It's money wasted. "
Again, no one ever said it would. The post office accomplishes nothing for removing 12 million illegals already in this country, doesn't mean the post office is wasted money. It's job isn't the removal of illegals, and neither is a fence. The job of a fence is to stop illegals, not remove them. 2 different issues.
But all this isn't necessarily relevant. You feel that because employers can't find legal Americans to do a job(which is BS) then it is okay to subsidize the success of their company on the back of illegal labor. It isn't. If you can't succeed by operating a business legally, then you shouldn't be in business. And that goes for every aspect of business, not just labor. If a business can't afford to buy its inventory, we wouldn't condone stealing inventory from a competitor and reselling it. Likewise, we shouldn't condone the hiring of illegal labor simply because they can't remain profitable by hiring legal labor.
More spin Tumbler?? What yo
December 28, 2006 - 09:52 ET by The Real TonyMore spin Tumbler?? What you fail to mention is that there are Americans who won't take those jobs because they are paying less than the minimum wage. I'm guessing you see no problem in having a permanent underclass as far and away the vast number of illegal aliens working are getting paid less than the federal minimum wage. Even the ones that make that and/or more, are getting paid off the books and not paying taxes.
Another thing, the more accurate number of illegal aliens is approximately 22 million.
If the illegal aliens taking these crappy jobs were also forced to be on the books and pay taxes, they would leave those jobs too...in a heartbeat!!!
Maybe a fence wouldn't stop them, especially since its only going about 1/3 of the total border. But shooting illegals in the desert may serve as a distinct deterrent, and have fewer illegals here.
No matter what shit you spin, the simple and indisputable fact is that they are criminals. They have broken the law. They are in violation of the law, they know it and therefore they need to be treated like criminals.
We could certainly gather up and process at least 2-4 million in a year. We could do triple that if we streamlined our processes.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
If there is a job worth doing
December 26, 2006 - 14:02 ET by Dan The Man 2If there is a job worth doing at a fair wage then there will be those who will work. We dont have to rely on immigrants who will work at lower wages as we can make the wages more. Not a popular idea and cost will rise but the economy will adjust.
The idea of guest workers to me looks suspuciouly like slave labor. I also look at France and the problems they have now with their guest workers who stayed and now want more tahn the jobs their parents and grandparents got. It is slavery sure and simple as we dont want these peopel to advance to make better wages or have better jobs.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.
On misterbill's question
December 26, 2006 - 14:04 ET by UnsaneYou just wait until an economic downturn. Then those homegrown crybabies will be screaming for the opportunity to work ANYWHERE. But then, I had to bust my ass to pay my way through college, doing all kinds of work I wouldn't ordinarily want to do but did anyway because it PAID.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Fasted, shrub etal
December 26, 2006 - 17:16 ET by misterbillAlthough there is a difference in our ages our thoughts seem to be very much in line. I feel very much as each of you do. One of my points while discusing this was the High school he chose is in one of the most affluent areas of Atlanta. (Cobb County). Furthermore , the high school he recruited at was one of the more affluent sections of the County. About 85% of the parents of these students are college grads with a large number of advanced degrees. I doubt there was a lot of encouragement from the parents for their children to be electricians or tradesmen. My nose does not turn up at all at being a tradesman. I asked why he didn't recruit at another HS where the homes and incomes were more modest. It was a matter of proximity. So, I said that we could not come to a balanced conclusion under the circumstances.
Can we give control back to the teachers? Do you trust them, if you could allow them to discipline your children? Yes, our kids are candy asses---the strange part is they think they are tough. Perhaps some NBers will understand why I would like to see some form of service too the country as a mandatory part of all young American's training. I KNOW it's not just me who realizes what great training I got from Uncle Sam. Even if it is like an old WPA or CCC environment it would IMHO give the young folks a taste of America. Help with Katrina type situations, bear arms , if that is their choice. Build a bridge, install sewer facilities in parts of Appalachia. Give blood, work at a hospital. There are any number of services that this nation could use. And if the kids want to go in from high school--give them some form of a GI bill to go to college after they give their country two years. AND damn it, teach them American history --the American version --not the MSM or delusional liberal college professor version of our history.
I foresee a day in America when skilled tradesmen will be near the top of the income heap. But more importantly, I want, so bad for our young folks to see what they have and to protect it from any kind of invading force.
We agree with many things, bu
December 26, 2006 - 22:35 ET by UnsaneWe agree with many things, but I have to part ways with you on one little thing: I do not trust teachers to discipline children. The problem is that I attended a school full of teachers who positively HATED children run by a principal who so loved to hit children he would without the necessary district mandated permit (and I suspect that is why he was not a principal anymore not long after I left there). Perhaps it was some sort of sick sexual perversion on that principal's part.
And one other thing: skilled tradesmen are ALREADY making a killing. You will NEVER be able to outsource plumbers, bricklayers, electricians, mechanics, and other such tradesmen. (I confess though even as I have a more academic inclination, I understand completely why people opt to do these things, and can at least discuss some of the issues involved in these trades - my father knows how to do all those things.) I see it all the time. The people who look down upon these professions are ignorant snobs of the highest order.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
unsane - agreement
December 26, 2006 - 23:56 ET by misterbillunsane - agreement--we may be even closer than you think. I did ask--would you trust the teachers? I was asking because I have my doubts. When I attended Christian school a hundred years ago, physical punishment was standard, but never bad. A whack or two on the hand with a ruler--usually a little painful, but more humiliating than painful. I would be a little concerned as you are in this day and age even more than (I am guessing) when you went to school.
I had heard of school districts where serious paddling was allowed. I fail to see how that would positively impress a child.
Teachers vs. Parents. Parents win every time
December 27, 2006 - 02:47 ET by UnsaneI also look at it this way: I never feared the teachers. I feared my parents. THAT is the way it should be. My parents backed the teachers and that was that. Now, the breakdown of parental authority is another issue altogether, but I would submit that if people aren't prepared for the responsibility of parenthood, then they should exercise their freewill and not have children, for there is never any shame in turning down responsibility you don't want or can't handle. In fact, that itself is a VERY responsible and commendable act.
Teachers, in the end, play a very ephemeral role in our lives. We know them, good or ill, for a year or so and then they fade into the rear view mirror. Why have such temporary actors/actresses handed the role and actions of parents? Parents are forever; we will see and feel their influence while they are here and they will fill our memories (and haunt some of us perhaps!) when they are gone.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
I say...
December 26, 2006 - 17:41 ET by Guy Arthur ThomasThe immigrants from Mexico are a reality. They can be turned into an asset or a liability by Republicans. Right now no politician is going to risk his job to tell the truth...they are waiting for Limbaugh or Sean Insannity...maybe even O'Reilly or Bortz to pretend to have an epiphany and open the discussion to alternatives to one size fits all boot 'em out and build a wall. When one of the talking heads opens it up...well then a few conservative politicians no doubt will suddenly find the courage to discuss the reality you just described.
If you claim to be a conservative, please don't disgrace yourself and conservatism by thinking and arguing like a liberal.
guy, et al--excuse me?
December 26, 2006 - 18:29 ET by tumbler_2007What is this about "the courage"--??? Courage to what?
Hannity and Rush, whom I admire, have been on the side of fencing and demonizing and hurling on illegals since way before the last election. Did you wonder about courage? Did Kennedy show courage, sticking up for amnesty?
Or do you show courage here, editorializing? Talk is cheap. ME, Moi, I --have had the courage to confront about a dozen hard-liners here. With common sense and the truth. It takes more courage to be the one dissenter in a cage-full of wildcats like this one. (Not to mention a number of bigots.) And I have it. All you guys are safe inside the cheap-shot bullpen. I pitch. Nobody can hit my fast ball. And I'm a great American, tell that to Sean and Rush!
Tumbler...You must have misread me...
December 26, 2006 - 18:58 ET by Guy Arthur ThomasTumbler, I believe you misread me. When I use the word "courage" I am being facetious. The point is they know already alternatives need to be put on the table but are so lacking in courage they refuse to lead, instead they follow carefully to insure their ranting Crybaby Boomer constituents will vote for them again, hence the facetious use of the word courage in describing the eventual willingness to discuss alternatives but only AFTER the talking heads pave the way. And certainly my record is clear regarding posters who have followed the immigration arguments and I am disappointed that you failed to acknowledge my posts supporting making an asset out of the immigrants by conservatives instead of seeing them as purely as a problem. I have agreed they represent future votes for or against and the simpleminded solutions some suggest are unrealistic and based in fear. So before you go off thinking you are some martyr, you aren't. There are legitimate positions on both sides of the issue.
If you claim to be a conservative, please don't disgrace yourself and conservatism by thinking and arguing like a liberal.
if I'm mistaken about you
December 26, 2006 - 19:18 ET by tumbler_2007Guy, Art.
I misunderstood? Fine.
You seemed to favor a BIG fence in the last post. I thought. Anyway, you're right. If the fat's in the fire, don't throw gasoline on it. Find a better solution, that's the sensible response. Nobody in these blogs ever has a solution, they offer the old Fence BS. Calling Brokaw names won't save the country. Put a definition on your solutions. Come up with something new and workable. I'm not your enemy, I just disagree with the fatheads around us who actually THINK they've provided answers.
Solution for Illegal Immigration
December 26, 2006 - 19:44 ET by Guy Arthur ThomasThere is a solution, an easy one. Increase the federal penalty for knowingly hiring illegal aliens to 10 years. Anyone who aiding and abetting the employment, if not the directly person who hired the illegal gets 5 years. They won't get hired and they will go away.
Now for the truth. CONSERVATIVE politicians have yet to develop the courage or integrity to tell conservative voters or even moderate voters that they really ARE NOT serious about the problem because they WANT the illegals for many reasons. They have to pretend to be offended and produce reports of costs and stories or horrors, some true and some fabricated, to keep the conservative votes. But the truth is they are not serious for a minute. I know that, you know that but many don't want to see this. What you see is what you get. What you are getting are Republicans dragging their feet.
Me? I am for amnesty and citizenship with some strict standards and qualifications. I am also for the increasing of the penalties. I think the illegals can be and would be a wonderful asset for conservatives and Republicans but right now the vision of reality is quite blurred. I am no dummy. I also realize some risks, particularly terrorists and extreme communistic philosophy arriving with some of these illegals and so their citizenship must have a unique probationary period unlike others with far greater registration of personal information and DNA collection but once the period of stricter period of probation is finished then full citizenship indeed. Obviously this is no treatise and a very cursory treatment but this might illuminate my position.
If you claim to be a conservative, please don't disgrace yourself and conservatism by thinking and arguing like a liberal.
tumbler: "Nobody in th
December 26, 2006 - 23:38 ET by Galvanictumbler: "Nobody in these blogs ever has a solution, they offer the old Fence BS."
The solution starts with the Fence -- and by Fence, I mean the combination of obtacle, surveillance, and patrolling that deter most potential illegals from attemtopting entry, and catches the majority of those who do attempt. A physical fence is important in heavily populated/traficked areas, but sensors permitting remote monitoring may suffice in unpopulated stretches of the border.
Concurrently, we enforce visa violations as specificed by existing immigration laws. That means pursing violators and deporting them, not giving them a court date and turning them loose again.
And at the same time, we punish US employers who knowingly or voluntarily hired illegals. This exempts employers who required documentary proof of suspected illegals but were fooled by clever forgeries; we can't expect them to be experts on documentation. However, those who in anyway aid the hiring of illegals by providing counterfeit documentation, are to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
These three approaches require proper resourcing, which has been their weakness in the past. We must hold our elected Senators and Representatives accountable for not only making immigration policy, but ensuring the Executive Branch has the resources to carry it out. And if a President declines to enforce the laws, impeachment is in order (As happended to Andrew Johnson).
While waiting for these measures to begin taking effect, we can have a genuine national debate about immigration policy in this country, and not some flurry of headlines and bills rushed through the Congress to put a check in the box.
Contrary to the attribution to Teddy Kennedy for having the 'courage' to support a general amnesty for illegals, it takes absolutely no courage to ignore a problem. Kennedy and his ilk apparently don't believe a problem even exists, and acknowledgement is the first step toward solutions. We tried amnesty in '86, and the problem only got worse.
In fact, Kennedy is a moral coward; he lacked the courage to stand up in the Senate and demand that US immigration policy be properly resourced for enforcement. If he disagreed with the law, it was his moral obligation to campaign against it.
number of bigots - names, and
December 26, 2006 - 20:41 ET by FastEdnumber of bigots - names, and proof. editorializing - ah, maybe you too, we'ver shown proof, your turn. hard liners - us?, how's about you? Common sense and truth - which and when, common sense understands what ILLEGAL means, truth means they broke the law.
Your courage is misplaced, hiding behind talking point that you cannot back up, courage is working in the jobs, that you say americans don't want, except the legals aren't being hired, cause it doesn't take courage to hire people without proper documentation. Safe in a bullpen? only if the bull is a sissy without facts. Fast ball? - you haven't tossed a pill that would come colse to being fast, unless you count fast and loose with the "truth".
Wildcats? Thanks, we take that as a badge of honor, epecially when we go after red meat! Um, red might be your favorite color? Anyway, me thinks the handle of tumble comes from falling on the ole knoggin too many times, please sit, don't hurt yourself - there might not be a hospital open in your part of the woods, all the freebies taken by the illegals.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
fast ed met tumbler
December 27, 2006 - 03:00 ET by tumbler_2007You talk a good game but what is your actual solution? Talking down at me? I approve of better methods, not your pie in the sky.
It does take courage, not backing down from all you lock and load bullshitters in here. I don't know why I'm your target. I'm not an illegal, I'm a good American exercising my freedom of speech. Many are the times I said to you that you have every right to your opinions. Clearly you enjoy a majority in NewsBusters. Me; I'm a Republican who is NOT in lockstep with the local madmen. Guys like Fast Ed, who say-- "IT'S EASY. (Just move heaven and earth like um tellin ya.")
Yeah; get the legislation (You can't). Punish the guys who hire. (The law can't; it's still a free country.) Make penalties much stricter (No way; it takes more legislation and the people aren't behind that. You only THINK they should be. Our congressmen LOST, didn't they? That shows you a majority of Americans DON'T follow you in lockstep.) You are only a majority in THIS blog, Dude. Your courage is derived from convincing Blonde and Bigtimer and Misterbill. Not much more. I stand without allies against all of you because I have the courage of my convictions. Your "badge of honor" is hauling out the insults whenever I post contrary to your naive opinions. Nice try; you're OUT, eddie. Don't cry; go down to the minors and practice harder. You're outta your element here.
Riposte
December 27, 2006 - 03:25 ET by UnsaneActually, it is YOU who are out of your element. You simply do not want to accept that the far reaching majority of posters on this board like - no, love - LEGAL immigration, but want to end illegal immigration.
I really love that line about standing alone because of the courage of your convictions - you are a real martyr for lawbreakers! What a brave one! Naive opinions? Never mind that some of us can see the damage that illegal immigration can cause.
It is also refreshing to see you crying about others "hauling out the insults" - considering you are 1000% above the fray and have NEVER called me a racist/xenophobe, or other posters "Nazi", "bigot", or other such charged terms. Indeed, you just referred to people in your own party as "the local madmen". Yep, trust tumbler to NEVER EVER resort to insults.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Out of my element? Never, nev
December 27, 2006 - 09:37 ET by FastEdOut of my element? Never, never did I EVER talk down to you or anyone else, here or on/in any other media. Actual solution? Work the law. Yours? Haven't heard - maybe that's what you mean by tlaking down, we ask for a soultion and get no response.
If you were to do ANY research, you will find that what we have proven, on many occasions, that ILLEGALS are hurting jobs, medical care, education, transportation. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is a FACT. Not feelings, but fact, published and verified.
As far as the courage thing goes, what courage have you, sitting behind a keyboard, like the rest of us, thinking that you are the only correct thinker. Don't assume that you are Sisyphus, rolling your ideas up OUR hill. The hill your trying to overcome is bad or incorrect information.
As far as majority goes, since everyone is poll driven, most polls show that americans, as a majority, want a decision on the immigration problem and they want a decision on ILLEGAL.
You say you stand alone, using your courage as a badge of honor and are the only one with convictions - you insult us, thinking we don't have convictions. You talk down to us, using insults like "naive opionions". The only OUT to me, is the ball screaming over the center field bleachers, wining a no hitter against the fiction of your ideas and opinion - your opinion, protected by our freedom of speech, is just that. We have shown facts, as well as opinion, based on those facts, while your ideas have been built upon the sands of feelings and good intentions, both of which don't cut it in the real rough and tumble world of facts.
Freedom of speech is a protection, guarenteed, doesn't mean it has to be listened or acknowledged.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad
sliders away
December 27, 2006 - 10:20 ET by CatherwoodAny good hitter can hit a fastball. It's the two-seamers and sliders that give good hitters problems. Even a bullpen catcher knows that.
"They're filling j
December 27, 2006 - 02:08 ET by liberal_bug_zapperAh, the classic formulation. But says who, and at what wages?
________________________________________________
I've done a few long posts on this... and I've already proven through my own actions in my life, and know by the actions of those in my circle of friends and even in my family.... that illegals are taking jobs from Americans.... and at the same wages we get paid. The myth that they're getting paid less is just that... a myth.
Does anyone know what these people get paid to pick fruit? A good friend of mine was picking apples in Washington State right alongside questionable immigrants at 12 bucks an hour. That's quite a bit higher than the minimum wage and he said it's normal for the area. They're also understaffed sometimes, so the farmer gives them all 16 hours of overtime a week, that's time and a half for those in Rio Linda which means 18 dollars an hour for 16 hours... you do the math. Those are not bad wages, and those are jobs... that if advertised to Americans, would be snatched up by Americans looking for work.
The problem is, my friend says they only advertise locally.... and he says word has spread in the migrant community and that families of Mexicans live in towns surrounding the orchards. Multiple families share small homes, sometimes having as many as 16 people in a three bedroom house, and he said many of them drive nicer pickups than he does.
My point is.... that the migrants are doing what they can to keep the farmers happy and fully staffed so he does not have to advertise for workers. So he only does what the law requires and puts ads in the local papers only.
Americans would do the job if they knew about the jobs. There's an old fisherman's saying that when you find a good fishin' hole, you keep it a secret or it won't be good for long. The legals are bringing family illegally and keeping the work and pay between them.... it's their fishin' hole.
The only problem is they're fishing on someone else’s land.... which makes them thieves. So Mexicans are stealing nearly $8 billion from us every year. Time to stand up and kick some thieves out.
____________________________________________________
"These are the times that try men's souls." ~ Thomas Paine
mexicans are working
December 27, 2006 - 03:15 ET by tumbler_2007OK, zap. You call it stealing; but it's really working for a wage. Some may steal but the majority WORK for their pay. We don't need your fiction, Sir. Let me say as well; your anecdotal $12 wage is nice but just not on every farm. You mot refuse to believe it but it varies. And apples in Washington is easier than tomatoes in the S. Joaquin Valley at 110 degrees in the shade (there IS no shade, BTW). Little factoids like these which you ignore; and even your wage scale is BS. The true deal for an American can be quite discouraging when he can apply for much better in town, indoors with A/C.
In short, I hate to tell ya, but you don't know what you're talking about. Greenhorns hardly ever know.
So what you're saying is th
December 27, 2006 - 04:15 ET by liberal_bug_zapperSo what you're saying is that if you come to my property, and hunt deer on my property.... it's not stealing.... it's just hunting?
How about this, what if we all come over to your house while you're not there, break in and watch football and drink beer and eat chips. After all, we're just watching the game and having some beer and snacks right? No crime in watching the game and having some beer and snacks right?
____________________________________________________
"These are the times that try men's souls." ~ Thomas Paine
lib_bug-zopper
December 27, 2006 - 13:22 ET by tumbler_2007I hear ya,
Yes, the analogy is correct. We can say stealing merely because these are illegal aliens. But that's the letter of the law. The spirit gives life and the letter kills.
Besides; nobody has declared the violators blameless. Just because I don't reiterate your mantra doesn't mean I approve of illegal entry into the U.S. Nobody does. I have compassion. I really see the alien's necessity and hope for the best for him and his family. If he's caught, there's no argument. Deport him.
Just let me ask: Why this ass-ole commentary about breaking in watching football, beer and chips and your self-absorbed outrage? Keep your stupid beer & chips. Stick em where the sun never shines. One day you'll be 6 feet under and every poor Mexican and you will share the same fortunes. And God will judge who was the just man. God will disregard our self-righteous borders, trust me. I would much rather keep my mouth shut about my "deer hunting property." What a massive ego!
"I'm Christian, and the best one of all ever, so there!!!"
December 27, 2006 - 13:57 ET by UnsaneAh, there it is. tumbler's apologist rants for lawbreakers aren't complete without his self-congratulatory "I am the best, greatest and most perfect Christian of all because I CARE about illegal immigrants!!!" lines. Speaking for me, I don't care because it doesn't matter to me. I can't imagine this sits well with others though.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
You don't have answers....
December 27, 2006 - 18:40 ET by liberal_bug_zapperYou don't have answers.... except that no matter how right we are... you defend their right to come here illegally.
Why don't you go back to Mexico member of Aztlan. We won't let you make the lower States into a new province of Mexico no matter how much you scream about human rights and the like. If you're not a member of Aztlan... stop shilling for their cause.
Since you know I'm right about them being lawbreakers and thieves... you also know that we will eventually get really pissed and our representatives will begin to enforce the law... and with strength I hope.
We will build a fence.... we will kick out every illegal we can catch…. And we will release the border agents who are going to jail for shooting a drug smuggler. They should have shot to kill. Then he wouldn’t be suing. And it was dark, he had a van full of marijuana, they’d have been found to have done a good thing, which they did… with the exception that they should have killed him.
____________________________________________________
"These are the times that try men's souls." ~ Thomas Paine
Do us all a favor Tumbler and
December 28, 2006 - 10:12 ET by The Real TonyDo us all a favor Tumbler and keep God out of your notes....
Just like a liberal to try and invoke God when he is losing the argument.
If you really hope the best for them, you should be urging them to come to the country legally, not by understanding and accepting their crime.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
real tony baloney?
December 29, 2006 - 16:28 ET by tumbler_2007"Just like a liberal to try and invoke God when he is losing the argument."
I'll invoke God as often as I please. I'm no liberal, either. And I've NEVER lost any argument in this website. I've been consistent and always reasonable. The fact so many prejudiced Americans can't see it my way is no sign they've won an argument against me. GOD isn't your cup of tea ? ? ? Then go piss up a rope. (If you'll do us all a favor.)
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
December 29, 2006 - 17:36 ET by Blondeha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
There you go again, tumble, being rude and crude.
Imagine that !!!!
Brokaw, the naive
December 27, 2006 - 07:59 ET by CatherwoodWe would not have to send them all back as the liberal, rich guy Brokaw suggests. All we would have to do is put pressure on the illegals. Round up about 10,000 of them and send them back; the rest will follow on their own. We should also realize that there is a deliberate occupation at work here. Mexicans are streaming into the Southwest with the intention of occupying and holding land they say is theirs. It would be difficult to root them out. It is true that a wall won't work; it would only deter. Our only choice to prevent any further invasion by illegals is armed military on the border with orders to shoot to defend our country. Hopefully, warning shots will be all that's necessary. This is a war, by the way. Americans just don't realize yet that they are in one.
As i f'n sit here and read
December 27, 2006 - 08:08 ET by CCCPAs i f'n sit here and read this at 7:00 in the morning i don't think i once saw what i am now going to comment on...
THIS IS NOT OUR PROBLEM!!!
why in the HELL is America responsible for illegal aliens who can't get work in their own country and do pathetic jobs there?? I don't see hwo this is America's problem to babysit almost half a countries population because they can't provide for their OWN people!! Tumbler your hispanic....i know it sucks to see your own people get treated like shit every now and then....but we should quit deciding what the U.S. should do (for the most part) and fix the CORE of the problem which is mexico's inability to provide for it's own country when it's worrying about who gets paid in the drug trade....if there is a reconquista....it will just be like the host country Mexico....people need to start realizing these people are ILLEGAL.. you could even go to the point of calling it an invasion.... people entering a country illegally....just like saboteurs destroying the country from the inside...we should start deporting, build a wall, then start dealing with the mexican government even it consists of military action.
“The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do.” - Comrade Josef Stalin
On Mexico
December 27, 2006 - 11:58 ET by UnsaneWhat is indeed the most depressing aspect of all this is the fact that Mexico CAN and SHOULD be, with its agriculture, natural resources, huge labor pool, industrial base, and access to the sea, a First World nation...if not right up there with the G8, then definitely in the top 20 economies of the world. Yet it isn't, due to massive government interference and incompetence, and immense corruption. And what is Mexico's attitude to its own citizenry? "If you don't like it, too bad. Start walking north. You won't be missed." I'm thinking that if we were to seriously crack down on illegal immigration, and show Mexico that the United States isn't their dumping ground for citizens they don't want or care about, it would force Mexico to change for the better. I LIKE the idea of a dynamic, economically expanding Mexico that constantly creates opportunities for its own citizens...and thus opportunities for us all.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
unsaner than ever
December 27, 2006 - 13:38 ET by tumbler_2007Dear uns,
Your latest diatribe is off the wall as usual.
You're going poetic about the perception of Mexico you're in love with. Nothing but your odd fantasies. Just where do you get off, analyzing what Mexico thinks about it's citizenry? You don't have a clue. Assigning a foreign country its place "up there with the G8 and a 20th place in the world economy" as if you had a crystal ball. I fail to understand where you concoct these quasi-intellectual theories about another man's country. Just BLATHER.
I challenged you above to say what you mean to DO about these problems. Any idiot can pontificate. I also challenged you & others to put yourselves in those shoes, and the shoes of another man's poor children before you talk the talk. You're an embarrassment as typical American individuals. Heartless, self-important and bombastic. Examine your stupid conscience and just for a while--keep your opinions to yourself, because you're DULL, DULL, really DULL.
Silly tumbler strikes again
December 27, 2006 - 14:10 ET by UnsaneActually it is best to know who you are talking to before you speak. Did you know that one of the reasons for the mass migration northward could be attributed to - surprise! - good old fashioned racism from Mexico? If I had access to my library, I would quote chapter and verse where I got this.
People who scream at me "You don't know a damn thing about Mexico!" are the most amusing of all. One poor soul who did that to me, some months later, noted that Cinco de Mayo was the Mexican Independence Day. He was sure in for a nasty shock when I corrected him and took him on a brief sketch of 1860s Mexico. He never was dumb enough to accuse me of ignorance in matters of Mexico ever again.
Actually, tumbler, I am infinitely more compassionate than you are. I welcome all LEGAL migrants to this great country like long-lost brothers/sisters...and I really don't care where they come from. The illegal immigrants should be promptly shown the door. Mexico CAN and SHOULD be as prosperous as the United States and the fact that it isn't makes me nauseated. That you think there is nothing at all wrong with that to me is quite disturbing. If that is heartless to you, so be it. And if anyone should keep his opinions to yourself, it is you, if at the very least because you work for the Department of Redundancy Department. Yes, tumbler, we know: if you are an illegal immigrant from Korea (example), you should be immediately sent back. If you are an illegal immigrant from Eastern Europe (example), you should be immediately sent back. But if you are an illegal immigrant from Mexico, the law should absolutely positively not apply to you.
Finally, for the last time, I HAVE no conscience. Even the docs are terrified of me because my heart is made of obsidian and my blood looks like very well used motor oil. It is also rumored that dairy products spoil in my wake and that flames turn blue when I am near.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Quickly crosses himself and r
December 27, 2006 - 16:54 ET by Dan The Man 2Quickly crosses himself and recites litanies designed to ward of the facts.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark. -- save my gun, shoot a liberal.
crosses himself
December 28, 2006 - 11:27 ET by misterbillWears a necklace of garlic to keep conservatives and Americans away.
(As well as vampires.)
A heart of obsidian and blood
December 28, 2006 - 00:58 ET by MikeBA heart of obsidian and blood like used motor oil? Dairy products spoil in your wake and flames turn blue when you are near? Unsane! Hermano! You're an ogre too? Awwwriiiight!
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
It's true! I have been bann
December 28, 2006 - 02:32 ET by UnsaneIt's true! I have been banned from supermarkets and ice cream shops everywhere for a reason. And you can forget about me going to WI anytime soon. :-)
I didn't tag myself "Unsane" for nothing, now...
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
god your like a f***ing brok
December 27, 2006 - 15:51 ET by CCCPgod your like a f***ing broken record...yea if i was an illegal i'd cry to liberals to get them to change shit just for me....if i was an illegal i wouldn't blame all my jobless oppurtunities on a country thats not even mine....or im not supposed to be in....stfu tumbler your saying the same damn thing over again 'don't blame mexico' WTF are you retarded if Mexico gave half a shit about its people leaving we wouldn't have such a problem
“The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do.” - Comrade Josef Stalin
illegals
December 28, 2006 - 11:23 ET by misterbillStarted to watch the Brokaw program--after a while -- I became upset at the BS. The Gould company is saying they pay $14 an hour and cannot find Americans to do the job. Well damn it, if we loaded Americans who needed a job and a place to live on Greyhound busses, drove them to Colorado, etc. Then helped them to find housing and---oh never mind , that's what my company used to do. But, who wants to spend that money?? Not Gould. You can bet your sweet life that it would impact Mr Goulds income and profit.So--let's hire illegals and sling the BS that we can't find Americans who will work for $14 an hour.
PS Brokaw ESAD!
cannot find Americans?
December 29, 2006 - 17:02 ET by tumbler_2007Sure there are Americans who'll work for $14;
I worked for less. But Mexican illegals can't take those jobs, ordinarily. They'd get themselves rounded up by the INS, and deported. They have to lie low. YOU, the American who doesn't have to lie low, still won't admit he doesn't like certain jobs; even if they pay. After all, you've "got an education!" (Even though seeing your posts here belies the fact.)