Has it at long last begun to occur that John F. Kennedy is fading from the perennial lists of historian's picks of the "top most influential" historical Americans? If this latest survey of Historians is any indication, it just may be.
And it is about time, too… unless you are a hero worshipping journalist like Peter S. Canellos of the Boston Globe who is calling foul in his piece this morning titled, In pantheon, whither JFK?.
The Atlantic Monthly asked 10 eminent historians to rank the 100 most influential Americans of all time, and Kennedy did not make the cut. Worse, he was named on only two ballots.
Only TWO. Gosh, this is a calamity.
Canellos goes on to reveal others on the list, a list that includes the presidents before and after JFK, and informs us why these historians didn't put JFK on the list and why the two who did, did so.
But, he also laments that these foolish historians made a huge mistake with a display of near outrage at their malfeasance.
…Now, historians seem ready to believe that Kennedy's fame was entirely a matter of style -- and of grief.
...Still, the historians may have overcorrected
...Kennedy was solidly articulate: He solicited input from a wide range of advisers and outside specialists, deftly debated various approaches, showed respect but not too much deference to the Joint Chiefs, and crafted a combination of military actions and diplomatic thrusts that completely outmaneuvered the Soviets.
…It (the Cuban Missile Crisis) was a textbook example of presidential leadership under perhaps the greatest pressure faced by any chief executive. Johnson and Nixon -- and others of Kennedy's successors -- could have learned from it.
Interesting how people such as Canellos love historians when they say Reagan was not the big deal some think, or that George W. Bush is the "worst" president in history.
But don’t go goring THEIR favorite oxen!
Granted this list is pulled from a larger pool of possible entries than the "Greatest President" lists that we usually hear about considering that a president list gives only 43 choices. But for JFK not to have made in into a top 100 list is momentous, indeed. It may just signal a shift in consideration away from the substance free hero worship inculcated in the 60’s generation and toward a more honest portrayal of his somewhat empty presidency.
JFK may count as one of America's most tragic, unfulfilled potentialities, but he most certainly cannot figure among the country's greatest individuals. In fact, he was in office for such a short time it is not a fair reading of his accomplishments to rank him as a momentous president at all.
His one major moment of crisis in office, the famed Cuban Missile Crisis, may have displayed some of his elements of leadership -- though some claim he gave too much away in the face of Soviet capitulation turning their loss into their gain and our win into a loss -- and some mention his visionary thinking on space – though, left to others to complete -- but Kennedy really had little lasting impact on the country. He did little about the Cold War, he had no part in the Civil rights battles, nor did he effect much change in foreign policy. He did have some temporary effect on the economy, but his successors quickly wiped it out.
His one true legacy seems to be the mourning the country endured upon his assassination compounded by that of his brother and Martin Luther King's.
But there is one more enduring mark that Kennedy has left amongst us. His ability to enamor journalists as Cannellos eminently displays. This is an effect that papers over his lack of achievements in comparison to others in his position for those in journalism. Those who still hang on to that gauzy feeling of "Camelot" that the press was so instrumental in mythologizing even as he was still alive, still look to his short time in office as some sort of Golden Age quite regardless of any real achievement.
Mr. Canellos gives us another example that, while the Media may ostensibly imagine themselves too smart for religion, they won’t have their religious icons attacked or besmirched… or left off of historian’s "best of" lists.
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Good, now maybe future generations won't be propagandized
November 28, 2006 - 12:12 ET by SportPoliticsGood, now maybe future generations won't be propagandized with the glory and worshipping of JFK as the greatest president and human ever known, like I was subjected to.
I see what this Canellos is from your link:
[Peter S. Canellos is the Globe's Washington bureau chief. ]
So, are any of these newsy reporters Reagan worshippers instead, or are all of them democrat bootlickers?
Yeah, but now we've got a g
November 28, 2006 - 12:18 ET by lnthompYeah, but now we've got a generation in the midst of being propogandized that WJC is the greatest president ever known, and JEC Jr. is the greatest human ever known.
LNTHOMP previously posting as LEENT. U.S. Navy (ret.)
My success and happiness are not determined by who wins elections.
Interesting observation lntho
November 29, 2006 - 09:09 ET by The Real TonyInteresting observation lnthomp, and I agree with you. May I add that this may be more the WJC influence. Someone on this thread mentioned JFK's narcissism...that pales compared to Clinton's self-adoration. Perhaps this is yet another way the Clintonistas are rewriting history. All hail to William Jefferson Clinton.
Honestly and truthfully, I cannot understand how anyone at all thinks Clinton was a good President or even a decent human being.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
sports kennedy jf,that is
November 28, 2006 - 13:16 ET by misterbillmemory dimming, but I remember an article published during JFKs term. The article dealt with accomplishments of the first 100 days of each president's term. As I recall Filmore and one other pres were behind kennedy . I remember that I felt he did not have the credential to be Pres. and I did not vote for him. I failed to understand the hero worship that surrounded him. I also remember the men he deserted on the beach during the Bay of Pigs fiasco. I felt that was one of the biggest reasons our allies looked at us with suspicion. I detested his brothers. What were Robert's qualifications to be anointed AG? Teddie is a jerk and only has his job because of idiotic hero worshippers who choose to live vicariously rather than drawing joy out of their own lives. Never forget Chappaquiddick!
Kennedy...snnnxxxx
November 28, 2006 - 12:20 ET by Guy Arthur ThomasI grew up not being impressed with John Kennedy as a President from all I learned and read about him. I never found anything fascinating about Jackie either other than a very frail ego that was big on narcissism which lead to her obvious mental instablity over the years.
I look back and see little contribution by Kennedy. Most of what is told about him or fashioned as accounts of his leadership are mythological. Yes, there was and is an entire segment of our culture unable to get beyond the shallow evaluations of appearance and whose naivity is neverending, the same segment that base popularity of political leaders on presentation and not substance. These are predictable lot of children inhabiting adult bodies. They think Oprah Winfrey believes what she spouts, they preach environmental conservativism while abandoning it except for a few token practices in their private lives, they hate genuine authority, they are preoccupied with the lives of others and the appearance of others because their own lives and inner-selves are wrecked ashore a desolate island (mind you this is true whether the person is extremely well of financially or extremely poor). Grand delusions of utopia; people whose gullibility leads them to believe life is about or should be about pretty people who pretend to like being around ugly obnoxious lesbians, deliberately hostile thugs whose disrespect toward women and people in general is obvious but excused by their hypocritical supporters, high drama homosexual men whose impulsiveness can't even be matched by an undisciplined 3 year old child, shouters who shout down those with whom they disagree and cannot stomach, due to their pathetic lack of constitution, the ideas and considerations of others contrary to theirs, people who elevate the status and value of animals above fellow human beings, those lonely because their lives are spent preoccupied with themselves with little time for genuine contribution in the lives of others which brings genuine mental health and personal stability and integrity, not to mention self-exteem, the list goes on and on but these are the people that are suckers for the mythology of John Kennedy.
Oh, did I forget to mention...The MsM?
I am a member of LSCA (Lazy Spell Checkers Anonymous).
It is quite interesting to se
November 28, 2006 - 12:29 ET by UnsaneIt is quite interesting to see how Kennedy is portrayed as being...well, Godlike. In my opinion he was quite hit-and-miss and therefore average.
Hits: space exploration, Cuban missile crisis, realizing that tax cuts DO increase revenues
Misses: he could have gone all in to Vietnam and nipped it in the bud but he did not. ANYTHING ELSE related to Cuba. And IIRC, many of the social programs that LBJ got passed into law originated with JFK
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
interesting. i grew up admi
November 28, 2006 - 12:29 ET by buddycinteresting. i grew up admiring JFK and RFK and then after reading up on their life and after seeing the results of their views, changed my views. JFK was a fine speaker. he was nice looking. he read a lot. other than that i can't think of anything nice to say about him. i would not rate him in the top 35 us presidents. i would not rate him in the top 10,000 people of my life time (roughly the 50's to the present). he is a god to liberals and from that you can learn and great deal. JFK was a drug abuser, a sexual devient, shallow, self centered, corrupt, unfaithful, a poor father, a poor catholic, an appeaser, weak willed and lacked political courage (funny because the book someone wrote for him and he took credit for was entitled "Profiles in Courage" and dealt with political courage won a pulitizer prize).
Truman was the last great Democrat President
November 28, 2006 - 12:33 ET by Free StinkerTruman was the last great Democrat President.
That doesn't mean I don't think he made *bad* decisions . . . some based on bad advice from FDR appointees he kept in his administration . . . some his own mistakes.
Since Truman? Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, and Clinton . . . need I say more?
Kennedy cut taxes to stimulat
November 29, 2006 - 07:04 ET by Andrew H.Kennedy cut taxes to stimulate the economy and stared down the Soviet Union--all in all he did a good job in his three short years. It would be very hard to think of him as a modern day democrat. In my view he was a lot closer to Zell Miller than his younger brother.
The fact remains it would be hard to be significant on an all-time scale when he was in office short of three years.
Never relent.
Sexual deviant? Never heard
November 28, 2006 - 12:44 ET by balboaSexual deviant? Never heard that one before. And I've heard the drug abuser charge, but don't know the specifics?
balboa Says: And I've heard
November 28, 2006 - 17:29 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsbalboa Says: And I've heard the drug abuser charge, but don't know the specifics?
He had a bad (injured) back (a la Rush) and required pain management. Something anyone can fall victim to.
"$100 million to make my boy president? That's cheap!" paraphrasing Joe Kennedy
DSG
Gee, at least you're not ge
November 28, 2006 - 12:30 ET by balboaGee, at least you're not generalizing...
JFK had faults, yes. Show me a perfect Republican, and I'll show you a fairy tale. JFK has reached mythological status because of his tragic death. People saw hope and promise in him. Whether that would have happened or not we'll never know, but even in his short time, he inspired many people.
He inspired Kruschev to put N
November 28, 2006 - 12:35 ET by Free StinkerHe inspired Kruschev to put Nukes in Cuba. :-(
On another note: Show me a perfect Republican - No such thing. Even Reagan made mistakes. :-(
why must they be perfect?
November 28, 2006 - 12:46 ET by tumblerThere are no perfect men.
Bad times are when men are tested. Truman was at best a fair president; but handled a tough job OK. All the following Democrats, including JFK, were a sorry lot. Reagan came close to perfect. No disgrace, actually. Kennedy was really lucky to have been assassinated, for the sake of his "legacy". He had ties to the mob, serious problems with moral turpitude and a nasty background, which the media helped him to obscure.
Such as his bootlegger, Nazi-sympathizing father, the way he bought his election vs. Nixon; etc.,
A media such as W has been dealt today would have had JFK shot at dawn the day before his Dallas demise. No need to hire any hit men.
Such as his bootlegger, Naz
November 28, 2006 - 12:54 ET by Jack BauerSuch as his bootlegger, Nazi-sympathizing father
tumbler -- that's being kind. As US Ambassador to the UK, old Joe was actually a cheerleader for the Nazi cause in the US.
It destroyed his political career when the US entered the war. Hence the carefully crafted energies he poured into his son as "war hero."
If the US government has listened to the Kennedy patriarch's advice, that Britain was finished, and come to an understanding with Hitler, then the forces of darkness (a monstrous tyranny) would have prevailed.
Of course, that's never mentioned by Teddy Kennedy.
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Right you are, there was on
November 29, 2006 - 13:07 ET by RowaneRight you are, there was only one perfect Man, ever, and even He had his moment of doubt.
You're right about the tragic
November 28, 2006 - 13:04 ET by mattmYou're right about the tragic death being the cause of his iconic status. If it hadn't been for that who knows?
What I like to point out about JFK is that he was an anti-communist hawk, a supply-side tax cutter and that his "ask not what your country can do for you..." comment is more in line with Reagan than with any Democrat or "moderate" Republican of today. This was the point Quayle was trying to make when Lloyd Bentsen made that easy cheap-shot remark that the media had an orgasm over....
It's the same thing with Ku
November 28, 2006 - 13:07 ET by balboaIt's the same thing with Kurt Cobain. He would not be nearly as legendary if he were still alive. ("Smells Like Teen Spirit" still a great song, btw)
I have to disagree. Nirvana
November 28, 2006 - 21:26 ET by UnsaneI have to disagree. Nirvana sucked, was grossly overrated and equated the death of metal. He does not speak for my generation.
Truth be told, he's not speaking for anyone right about now...
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
If you think Nirvana sucked,
November 28, 2006 - 21:36 ET by balboaIf you think Nirvana sucked, isn't that agreeing with me?
Nirvana was desperately needed to kill metal, which had become a gross caricature of itself. I'm much more of a Pearl Jam guy, but I loved the "Nevermind" album and song Heart Shaped Box.
Quayle Bentsen
November 28, 2006 - 13:21 ET by misterbillCall me an intellectual snob, but Bentsen's snide remark was perhaps, one of the most childish remarks I have ever heard. I did not, at first, understand the praise he got for it. In the world of debating , it was a non issue point. Then, (coming from MA, I have friends and family there), I came to realize that to them what Bentsen said , would,in today's elegant debates be the same as saying, "your Mama". Brilliant, eh??? The public just adored do nothing Jack so much and disliked Republicans so much that they ate it up as if it were profound.
CRD
November 28, 2006 - 22:07 ET by CRDMisterbill,
You are not in a position to criticize others for childish remarks . Review you own comments on this site just today.
CRuD
November 29, 2006 - 13:24 ET by misterbillYou are right, but I am not vying for a position of power in Amercan national politics. If I were, I would curb my sarcastic humor and attempt to live up to the honor of the position I sought.
PS I post often enough that I do not remember which comments you are referring to. I did post one insulting comment and was called to task by the offended party. I apologized, he/she accepted.
suppose they had
November 29, 2006 - 14:14 ET by tumblerMisterbill:
Suppose they had a flaming-war, and nobody came? I like it when I meet a feisty opponent like you, because I enjoy the game. Like John MacEnroe; serve and volley and the devil take the hindmost. We can flame away without letting things get too gross.
Some guys have a cow at me. Some get vile. I just do it slow and easy, the old tumble weed in their faces. You ought to know by now.
tumbler - "suppose they had a war?"
November 29, 2006 - 14:21 ET by misterbilltumbler - "suppose they had a war and nobody came". I always liked that one. And I liked the commercial where the two older leaders had to duke it out instead of sending all the young folks off to war.
the olden times
November 29, 2006 - 14:41 ET by tumblerYeah; another example is the cockpit. I used to own gamecocks when I was younger, in southern Calif. Interesting chickens. They fight to the death.
They say in ancient civilizations, a war could be averted by two good kings, just by matching their champion gamecocks in a neutral ring. Of course, honor was the ruling imperative. Your chicken was killed, you were the losing cause. That was it; your side is defeated. And did you know George Washington kept gamecocks? Lincoln was a great fan of the cockfights. Today it's looked down upon. A real shame.
Response
November 29, 2006 - 21:09 ET by CRDJust check out each of your responses for 11/28/06. Not pretty !
all about Quail
November 28, 2006 - 13:25 ET by tumblerOK; yet Quail wasn't even pointing to any qualities he associated in himself alongside JFK. He was replying actually, to Bentsen's jab about his being green-behind-the ears, too young and inexperienced;
Before he could say, "Sure, Kennedy was also young, and he was fine by you," Lloyd Bentsion had made the notorious cheap shot. In fact, Quail was making an excellent point before getting sand-bagged. He was just too slow to react. He had no verbal skills.
Great
November 28, 2006 - 12:32 ET by iveseenitallGreat post, Guy Arthur. My sentiments exactly!
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
The power of the news media
November 28, 2006 - 17:06 ET by JDWThe power of the news media...
JDW
Kerry: "You know, education, if you make the most of it ... you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."
GAT great post!
November 28, 2006 - 13:28 ET by misterbillGAT great post! You have, as the expression goes, "Put it in a nutshell" !
I sometimes feel that 80% of the people I meet are all living through the lives of others. Another cogent post last week talked about why Americans speak and practice "hate America" attitudes. It is self-loathing. Why? I sure as hell don't know.
My dad used to say, "We all put our pants on, one leg at a time".
GAT PS
November 28, 2006 - 13:31 ET by misterbillGAT My dad said to me many times that:
"one of life's greatest puzzles is why there are far more horses' asses than there were horses".
GAT...Perfect!You hit the nai
November 28, 2006 - 17:29 ET by bigtimerGAT...Perfect!
You hit the nail right on the head! Great post!
Thank you...you spoke volumes for me in a way I never could articulate.
Thank You...
November 28, 2006 - 20:41 ET by Guy Arthur ThomasTo those who were edified by my thoughts as expressed below and on, and found them echoing theirs, you are welcome indeed and I too am grateful for your timely thoughts and illumination on many occassions.
I am a member of LSCA (Lazy Spell Checkers Anonymous).
Kennedy Worship
November 28, 2006 - 12:26 ET by EllisWyattThe chattering classes' worship of JFK is bad enough, but the worship of JFK Jr. was even more ridiculous. JFK Jr. accomplished almost nothing in his life, yet his death was mourned by the chattering classes as some great national tragedy.
Agreed. Many in the MSM des
November 28, 2006 - 13:45 ET by GalvanicAgreed. Many in the MSM described him as a 'possible future President,' when the man showed no interest in running for public office.
For the Chattering Class, JFK Jr. was America's Princess Di.
ellis you are missing the point
November 28, 2006 - 13:50 ET by misterbillellis you are missing the point <sarc on>
If you are young, rich and good looking, obviously you are worthy of the adulation of the masses.
JFK wasn't handsome
November 28, 2006 - 13:58 ET by tumblerActually though, you're right. It got Rooseveldt elected. He was all the above. JFK had a gargoyle face and the accent was goofy. But rich and young; yeah.
Some idiots just want Ameri
November 29, 2006 - 13:17 ET by RowaneSome idiots just want America to have "Royalty" so badly that they will almost diefy anyone.
Look how the masses viewed "Princess Di" and that Swimmer Ted is still in office riding his brother's name all his life.
Any member of the Kennedy clan are given a pass on a lot of things.
I would agree that Kennedy wa
November 28, 2006 - 12:28 ET by BruzillaI would agree that Kennedy was not the greatest president or politician, but speaking as a devout conservative Republican I think he should rate higher than FDR and Truman. Warner makes the point that Kennedy's handling, or mishandling, of the Cuban Missile Crisis can be construed as a victory for the Soviets, but let's look at FDR and Truman's (guys who made the list) dealings with the Soviets. Hiss and other Communists on FDR's staff guided him to hand the Soviets pretty much everything they wanted, and many of these people stayed on to provide guidance to Truman. And what did Truman accomplish? Aside from okaying the atomic bombing of Japan (a no-brainer), preventing us from winning the war in Korea, and posing with a newspaper proclaiming "Dewey Wins!" he didn't do much that I can recall. If these guys were president today they would never get re-elected because of their gross mismanagement of wars.
As for JFK, during his three years in office he was the first US president to really stand-up to the Soviets; he was one of the few presidents who realized cutting taxes on businesses was the way to improve the economy, and his push for the moon resulted in 1,000s of new products and benefits for the American people. I would consider that was a lot of noteworthy accomplishments and influence for one guy over a three-year period.
Bruzilla
November 28, 2006 - 12:39 ET by SportPoliticsI note the list is "most influential Americans", along the lines of the Times magazine cover for person of the year, which includes BAD people.
Here is the list of 100 with a small synopsis by each name. I've read it all and will count the "black slavery racism" related entrants, which I believe number about 20-25.
After reading through it I'm more convinced JFK is in trouble because it looks like a bunch of whiney liberals contributed to the list.
Number 96 was enlightening:
96 Ralph Nader
He made the cars we drive safer; thirty years later, he made George W. Bush the president.
( A little too much liberal bias slipping out there?)
_________________________________________
Yes I count 25 slavery/abolition/anti-racism entries of the 100.(the little synopsis is part of my evaluation)
I note also it is overfilled with "anti-" religious mentions. ( an indication of liberal hatred of religion)
Then they have the nuclear bomb entrants, more than several.
Then the newspaper influence, one that changes a presidential election.
Then the "robberbarrons" hatred, coupled with Walstreet.
The writers whitman and twain, Moby Dick author, and Spock, plus of course Henry David Thoreau.
There are a lot of women's issues entrants.
It makes me sick reading their little synopsis', and thinking how much liberal hatred is outlined there.
Good points all, but JFK will
November 28, 2006 - 12:40 ET by UnsaneGood points all, but JFK will never be rated higher than FDR. Granted, the latter did much to introduce the United States to big government, and this is lamentable, me being a conservative, but the fact that he did makes him a bit of a "revolutionary" figure in Presidential history (much the same way that Andrew Jackson vetoed more bills than his predecessors combined, and he didn't veto because he thought the bills were unconstitutional the way his predecessors did; he vetoed because he simply didn't like the bills; this was different!).
Indeed, JFK's views on taxation made him a man ahead of his time. Reagan would do the same thing 20 years later.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
I think another kudo JFK dese
November 28, 2006 - 13:06 ET by BruzillaI think another kudo JFK deserves was he was the first President of his time to be willing to tell the Soviets "No" instead of always trying to placate them and meet them halfway. Without the Cuban Missile Crisis showing the timidity of the Soviet Bear I don't think you have a Ronald Reagan getting elected.
the kudo for JFK
November 28, 2006 - 13:36 ET by tumbler"he was the first President of his time to be willing to tell the Soviets "No" instead of always trying to placate,"
But realistically, Kennedy had no other useful option. He could NOT permit installation of the missiles. He did what ANY president would have done, IMHO.
Let's carry your other analogy further:
Without Joe McCarthey to blacken the image of Republicans for the next half-century we never would have lost that election in the first place, Nixon vs. Kennedy. Looking backward now; JFK had a very lucky star hovering over him. Even Dallas turns out advantageous, as we can now see.
Excuse me, but the idea of a
November 28, 2006 - 23:00 ET by kathleenirishExcuse me, but the idea of a brave Kennedy telling the Soviets, "no", is a supreme over-exaggeration, is it not?
We had to concede quite a bit to get the Soviets to pull their missiles out of Cuba, didn't we? We had to promise not to install some missile system in Turkey and other concessions, ones we should not have had to make, considering the actions the Soviets were up to. I am sure someone who knows more about those details will explain them in better detail.
I have to laugh at the immature and juvenile liberals who worship Kennedys. And, it looks like the libs are feeling their oats. Back to the glory days again, with a movie about Bobby Kennedy coming out, as well as some anti-CIA movie with the kook Angelina Jolie. I don't even know anything about that movie but I would bet the bank it bashes the U.S. and the C.I.A.
I am saving the poteen for when Ted K. kicks it. Happy Day, sorry to say.
"He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere" -Ali ibn-Abi-Talib, 4th Islamic Caliph
The downside was that we had
November 29, 2006 - 00:28 ET by UnsaneThe downside was that we had to yank 15 Jupiter missiles from Turkey. The upside was that even after those 15 missiles were pulled out, we still had a 7:1 missile advantage with the Soviets.
And the Soviets still didn't have that much in the way of a missile advantage even twenty years later. The Minutemen that the United States had were more accurate and were solid-fueled (meaning shorter response time). The missiles the Soviets had were liquid-fueled - meaning you had advanced warning if you saw fuel trucks out by SS-18 silos for no apparent reason - and they had to use larger warheads because their missiles were not accurate enough. Nor did they have much of an idea how to take care of their equipment. As Dunnigan and Bay put it in A Quick and Dirty Guide to War (First Edition): "Those missiles you see on trucks in Red Sqaure parades may look great on TV, but that is a very bad way to carry a missile around if you intend to shoot it."
We also promised not to invade Cuba, but it was clear it couldn't be an unsinkable aircraft carrier. If any other funny business occurred there, what would have become of that promise not to invade?
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Sure, apart from overseeing
November 28, 2006 - 12:42 ET by Jack BauerSure, apart from leading the ALLIED victory in WW2 alongside Churchill, what the hell did FDR ever do?
And don't even get me started on the Romans.
Seriously dude, I'm also a conservative. But let's try to be FAIR here.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
What did FDR ever do?He mad
November 28, 2006 - 13:42 ET by Warner Todd HustonWhat did FDR ever do?
He made the USA a proto-socialist state, THAT is what he did!
I still think winning WW2 t
November 28, 2006 - 14:16 ET by Jack BauerI still think winning WW2 trumps all.
But hey, that's just me.
(And it is kinda odd to leave that out of the equation. Let's rate scientists but we won't consider e=mc squared when assessing Einstein.)
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
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that's just you & me
November 28, 2006 - 14:22 ET by tumblerMost of all, back then there was no politically correct way to say war.
Geo S Patton said it well: We kill Germans. Never even said Nazis. He was no purist.
tumbler -- spot on NBuddyWW
November 28, 2006 - 14:29 ET by Jack Bauertumbler -- spot on NBuddy
WW2 was the last war America fought to win.
Our aim is victory. Victory at all costs... For without victory there is no survival.
Sorry to say but since then, too many good men have died because too many politicians seem as concerned about the enemy as their own troops.
And I'm talking all politicians, not one side.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
He was a piece of work
November 28, 2006 - 14:37 ET by tumblerI admire Patton no end. Have you read his book, "War As I Knew It--?
Some war planner objects to his spearheading away in the dust. "Your flanks are going to be exposed." He sent back, "Fu-- my flanks. Um busting through their flanks."
Have you read his book, &q
November 28, 2006 - 14:43 ET by Jack BauerHave you read his book, "War As I Knew It--?
No -- but I will now.
If you would like to see and hear my small tribute to Patton and the battle for Fallujah, you might like to play this mini-movie I created.
It's called BETTER MEN THAN ME
It's only 3 minutes long. I have mentioned it on NB before.
http://www.moviebus....
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militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
What, you think leading Ame
November 28, 2006 - 14:24 ET by balboaWhat, you think leading America and the world through a dangerous segment of time marked by the rise of two nefarious powers hell-bent on taking over the world is an accomplishment? You impress easily.
Why can't you just say you
November 28, 2006 - 14:31 ET by Jack BauerWhy can't you just say you agree with me?
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
Sorry... :-)I agree with yo
November 28, 2006 - 14:33 ET by balboaSorry... :-)
I agree with you.
LOL -- I was just laughing
November 28, 2006 - 14:39 ET by Jack BauerLOL -- I was just laughing at your verbal contortions, which I finally took to mean agreement after reading thrice.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
There's absolutely no denying
November 28, 2006 - 16:01 ET by aeroThere's absolutely no denying that FDR was among the top most-influential people in American history. His legacy--both good and bad--still lives on in ways that affect us all each and every single day. Yes, he led the US and its Allies to victory and inspired a level of support for WWII at home that is unmatched in American history. But he also almost single-handedly created the entitlement state that may very well eventually crush the greatest economy in the world. And in his unwillingness to step down in the final days and let someone healthier and more mentally aware negotiate the peace terms, he allowed the seeds of the Cold War to be sown. I think it can be argued that the negative effects of his policies and decisions may very well someday eclipse the positive benefits of winning WWII. The destruction of the American way of life was simply deferred--the welfare state that FDR started will do it eventually if we don't change things. (That's if the terrorists don't do it first, that is.)
Bruzilla FDR
November 28, 2006 - 13:44 ET by misterbillFDR was a man in very ill health at Yalta and his other meetings with Churchill and Stalin. That being said, he did give too much away. I have first hand reports as to his health conditions and the physical stress put upon a frail man. IMO he was so superior to BS Kennedy that his name should be on a separate page. BTW we won the war in Korea. Did you watch the wrong show?? Or did you attend a university "creative history" class?
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Reagan, #17 on list - to be clear
November 28, 2006 - 12:36 ET by Gary HallPresident Reagan is #17 on the list - to be clear.
The Top 100
17 Ronald Reagan - The amiable architect of both the conservative realignment and the Cold War’s end.
The difference between Reagan
November 28, 2006 - 13:56 ET by jdhawkThe difference between Reagan and Kennedy vis-a-vis the Soviet Union is miles apart. Reagan took a risky and calculated stance against the Soviets and won. Kenndy fumbled bummed into the crisis that became known as the Cuban Missile Crisis and nearly started WWIII.
Its a wonder what money can buy. It bought respectibility from a bootlegging daddy for his sons.
An eye opener is the book, Do As I Say (Not As I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy.
The Kennedy myth spinners don't get it
November 28, 2006 - 18:53 ET by PlaceboOne has to have a great guffaw when hearing folks beatifying JFK. The myth spinners did one helluva job; it seems, however, it is either unravelling or, at least, fading.
Kennedy was everything but a saint… we all know the stories, he was flawed as are all humans. The leftists are wishing they could clone Jack and bring him back. Sorry, Geriatric Park is a science-fiction, for the moment, at least.
I’m amused at the pining; if JFK had been here things would have been better… meaning, obviously, Vietnam… sorry, he put us in there in the first place.
Nor do we hear mention of The Bay of Pigs fiasco… Kennedy wasn’t president for but a short period; to lionise or iconize him is simply, spin. Then again, those of the left have made myth spinning a career.
Blasphemy by me??
November 28, 2006 - 19:07 ET by misterbill"Johnny we hardly knew ye." Perhaps a good thing!
I have always been upset that JFK was assassinated. I have never been upset that he is no longer in the White House.
One thing every myth spinner
November 29, 2006 - 00:35 ET by UnsaneOne thing every myth spinner forgets is this: historians can be very patient. All they need to do is wait for enough people to die (sad but true). In fact that is almost necessary in history. For the primo stuff to come out, you have to wait until the participants and quite possibly a good chunk of that generation are dead.
The second thing they forget is this: the number of people who were either too young to remember 22 November 1963 - or were simply not alive then - grows every single day. These are people with less emotional attachment to the events of that time and they will form their own opinions and ideas of those times on their own. How JFK will be viewed in 2060 or even 2020 will be radically different than how he is viewed in 1980 or 2000.
I suspect that most of us already know these things, but just enough people don't realize this, so I thought I'd bring it up.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
if the Soviet archives that
November 28, 2006 - 21:24 ET by JPninerif the Soviet archives that were released after the Soviet Union fell is any indication then JFK was no hero with the "Cuban Missile Crisis", in fact he was an absolute fool. read "Fidel" by Humberto Fontova, or historians like Peter Sweizer on the subject.