On Monday's Countdown, MSNBC host Keith Olbermann used his latest "Special Comment" segment to attack President Bush's recent contention, in response to a question about what lessons could be learned from the Vietnam War, that "the task in Iraq is going to take a while," and that "we'll succeed unless we quit." The Countdown host started off by charging that President Bush, "who permitted the 'Swift-Boating' of not one but two American heroes of that war," exhibits an "avoidance of reality" that "is going to wind up killing more Americans." He also dismissed the Cold War-era domino theory, as well as Bush's linkage of Iraq to the war on terrorism, as "nonsense," and claimed that Vietnam is now prosperous because America pulled out. Olbermann: "The war machine of 1968 had this 'domino theory.' Your war machine of 2006 has this nonsense about Iraq as 'the central front in the war on terror.'" More Olbermann: "That stable, burgeoning, vivid country you just saw there is there because we finally had the good sense to declare victory and get out! The domino theory was nonsense, sir. Our departure from Vietnam emboldened no one. Communism did not spread like a contagion around the world." Olbermann further contended that one lesson Bush should have learned from Vietnam is that "if you lie us into a war, your war and your presidency will be consigned to the scrap heap of history." (Transcript follows)
Video clip (6:05): Real (4.6 MB at 100 kbps) or Windows Media (3.8 MB at 81 kbps), plus MP3 audio (2.1 MB)
Below is a complete transcript of Olbermann's "Special Comment" segment from the November 20 Countdown show:
Keith Olbermann: "And now, as promised, a 'Special Comment' about the President's visit to Vietnam. It is a shame and it is embarrassing to us all when President Bush travels 8,000 miles only to wind up avoiding reality again. And it is pathetic to listen to the leader of the free world talk so unrealistically about Vietnam when it was he who permitted the 'Swift-Boating' of not one but two American heroes of that war, in consecutive presidential campaigns. But most importantly, important beyond measure, his avoidance of reality is going to wind up killing more Americans. And that is indefensible and fatal.
"Asked if there were lessons about Iraq to be found in our experience in Vietnam, Mr. Bush said that there were, and he immediately proved that he had no clue what they were. 'One lesson is,' he said, 'that we tend to want there to be instant success in the world, and the task in Iraq is going to take a while.' 'We'll succeed,' the President concluded, 'unless we quit.' If that's the lesson about Iraq that Mr. Bush sees in Vietnam, then he needs a tutor. Or we need somebody else making the decisions about Iraq.
"Mr. Bush, there are a dozen central lessons to be derived from our nightmare in Vietnam, but 'we'll succeed unless we quit' is not one of them. The primary one, which should be as obvious to you as the latest opinion poll showing that only 31 percent of this country agrees with your tragic Iraq policy, is that if you try to pursue a war for which the nation has lost its stomach, you and it are finished. Ask Lyndon Johnson.
"The second most important lesson of Vietnam, Mr. Bush: If you don't have a stable local government to work with, you can keep sending in Americans until hell freezes over and it will not matter. Ask South Vietnam's President Diem or President Thieu.
"The third vital lesson of Vietnam, Mr. Bush: Don't pretend it's something it's not. For decades we were warned that if we didn't stop 'communist aggression' in Vietnam, communist agitators would infiltrate and devour the smaller nations of the world, and make their insidious way, stealthily, to our doorstep. The war machine of 1968 had this 'domino theory.' Your war machine of 2006 has this nonsense about Iraq as 'the central front in the war on terror.'
"The fourth pivotal lesson of Vietnam, Mr. Bush: If the same idiots who told Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon to stay there for the sake of 'peace with honor' are now telling you to stay in Iraq, they're probably just as wrong now as they were then -- Dr. Kissinger.
"And the fifth crucial lesson of Vietnam, Mr. Bush, which somebody should have told you about long before you plunged this country into Iraq, is that if you lie us into a war, your war and your presidency will be consigned to the scrap heap of history.
"Consider your fellow Texan, sir. After President Kennedy’s assassination, Lyndon Johnson held the country together after a national tragedy, not unlike you tried to do. He had lofty goals, he tried to reshape society for the better, and he is remembered for Vietnam, and for the lies he and his government told to get us there and keep us there, and for the Americans who needlessly died there. As you, Mr. Bush, will be remembered for Iraq, and for the lies you and your government told to get us there and keep us there, and for the Americans who have needlessly died there and who will needlessly die there tomorrow.
"This President has his fictitious Iraqi WMD and his lies, disguised as subtle hints, linking Saddam Hussein to 9/11, and his reason-of-the-week for keeping us there when all the evidence has, for at least three years, told us we needed to get as many of our kids out as quickly as we could. That President had his fictitious attacks on Navy ships in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964, and the next thing any of us knew, the Senate had voted 88-2 to approve the blank check with which Lyndon Johnson paid for our trip into hell. And yet President Bush just saw the grim reminders of that trip into hell: of the 58,000 Americans and millions of Vietnamese killed, of the 10,000 civilians there who have been blown up by landmines since we pulled out, of the genocide in the neighboring country of Cambodia which we triggered. Yet these parallels, and these lessons, eluded President Bush entirely. And, in particular, the one overarching lesson about Iraq that should have been written everywhere he looked in Vietnam went unseen.
"'We'll succeed unless we quit'? Mr. Bush, we did quit in Vietnam -- a decade later than we should have, 58,000 dead later than we should have, but we finally came to our senses. That stable, burgeoning, vivid country you just saw there is there because we finally had the good sense to declare victory and get out! The domino theory was nonsense, sir. Our departure from Vietnam emboldened no one. Communism did not spread like a contagion around the world. And most importantly, as President Reagan's Assistant Secretary of State, Lawrence Korb, said on this newscast on Friday, we were only in a position to win the Cold War because we quit in Vietnam. We went home. And instead it was the Russians who learned nothing from Vietnam, and who repeated every one of our mistakes when they went into Afghanistan and alienated their own people and killed their own children, and bankrupted their own economy and allowed us to win the Cold War.
"We awakened so late, but we did awaken. Finally, in Vietnam, we learned the lesson. We stopped endlessly squandering lives and treasure and the focus of a nation on an impossible and an irrelevant dream, but you are still doing exactly that, tonight, in Iraq. And these lessons from Vietnam, Mr. Bush, these priceless, transparent lessons, written large as if across the very sky, are still a mystery to you.
"'We'll succeed unless we quit.' No, sir. We will succeed against terrorism, for our country's needs, towards binding up the nation's wounds when you quit, quit the monumental lie that is our presence in Iraq. And in the interim, Mr. Bush, an American kid will be killed there, probably tonight, or if we are lucky, not until tomorrow. And here, sir, endeth the lesson. We will continue with the O.J. Simpson story and Michael Richards' apology after this."
Comments Policy
I thought it was Kennedy
November 20, 2006 - 23:39 ET by exLibI thought JFK got us into Vietnam.
Is Keith trying to give JFK the pass here and pin the war on LBJ?
Most libbies call Vietnam "Nixon's War" and try to pretend it was all Nixon's fault.
This guy is a clown.
And in '63, months before JFK
November 20, 2006 - 23:44 ET by GalvanicAnd in '63, months before JFK himself was assassinated, Diem was murdered in a military coup. That was JFK's way of establishing a more stable Saigon government.
Oh the irony!
November 21, 2006 - 01:19 ET by UnsaneEven more ironic: Diem was assassinated 22 DAYS before JFK was.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
You can argue that Vietnam st
November 21, 2006 - 00:13 ET by UnsaneYou can argue that Vietnam started with Eisenhower. It was he who sent in the first advisors.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Eisenhower
November 21, 2006 - 00:17 ET by BlondeUnsane,
Why does no one understand this?
And how does it go from the beginning, to being "Nixon's War"?
Wondering.
I just can't quite make the same leap of logic.
And why are there three words always missing in this conversation?
Dien Bien Phu?
The relevance of history
November 21, 2006 - 00:23 ET by UnsaneBlonde - It is because people either cannot, or more likely, will not, study history. As a fellow history major and I constantly, sarcastically lament: "Who needs history? All that stuff happened in the past, man, and doesn't apply to today. We should all be reading People Magazine instead for that is so much more important."
Interesting you bring up Dien Bien Phu. General Giap was of course victorious over the French there. What was Giap's previous profession? A history professor.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
History
November 21, 2006 - 00:28 ET by BlondeOuch, Unsane.
That really hurt.
We gave a nice long look at bailing out the frogs, once again.
And kinda sorta did, but not. Well, not so as they'd get to keep their empire thing going. Idiot French. (Does anyone else remember that Vietnam used to be known as French Indochine?)
And the rest, as we know, is history.
More on Dien Bien Phu
November 21, 2006 - 00:36 ET by UnsaneNot intended as a slam on you by any means...just a slam on a general attitude. Not to mention I keep getting asked why I studied history in college...
When I took a course in Combat Logistics, I was shown a British made documentary on Dien Bien Phu. (It should be obvious that the Brit doing the voice-over was doing his damndest to be extra smug.) The funniest part was when one of the French officers got promoted during the siege, and they decided to parachute a single bottle of champagne to him. It descended behind enemy lines and was presumably enjoyed by the Viet Minh.
Of couse, given my background, I should note that it was perhaps the biggest French logistical disasater since the march on Moscow in 1812.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Dien Bien Phu
November 21, 2006 - 00:48 ET by BlondeUnsane,
No harm, no foul.
But I wonder how many people actually understand our entry into Vietnam? And when we got involved? Precisely?
And of course, before that (shortly after the end of WWII) how we were involved in Greece? Actually, it was the very beginning of the Special Forces. But of course, no one knows that little fact....running down communism is no longer of any interest....hmmm.
Oh, I could go on for a long time about parallels....but the one which concerns me the most, right now, is the idiotic bleating of the press.
They're going to try to lose this war for us. And be happy about it.
And if we, as a nation, allow them to treat us like sheep....well, you get my drift.
According to Tom Clancy's Sha
November 21, 2006 - 01:25 ET by UnsaneAccording to Tom Clancy's Shadow Warriors (written with Gen Carl Stiner, U.S. Army retired), the Special Forces originated during WWII and were used to work with the French resistance...as much as could be done, for the French resistance, as showcased in the opening of the book, were quite busy and content to fight and kill each other as much, if not more so, than the Germans.
Yes, indeed, people forget how close Greece came to going Red back in the early postwar years. (I, remembering the tail end of the Cold War extremely well, loves to read about how we ran down communism back in the day, as they say!)
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Unsane,I've read other books
November 21, 2006 - 01:36 ET by BlondeUnsane,
I've read other books on the origins of SF... all of the antecedents of the SF refer to the O.S.S.
But the true beginnings of SF, advising indigenous forces, for the purpose of acting as force multipliers, had its true beginnings in Greece.
Of course, only one in five hundred Americans would even have a clue.
After Greece...hello Diem Bien Phu... or not.
It was the fifties, after all....and the Cold War.
But that's another story.
Unsane
November 21, 2006 - 12:32 ET by kafkakaeferNot to mention the mutual agreement of Stalin and Churchill to share their influence in Eastern Europe. Meaning the British and Greek authorities defeating the greek insurgency without fear of getting into trouble with the soviets and conversely Stalin fighting the insurgencies in Eastern Europe (Poland Hungary etc.).
BTW, very nice pick on the french, again.
"Hegel says somewhere all great events and personalities in world history reappear in one fashion or another. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second as farce."
The Eighteeenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte (1852) sect. 1, Cf.
German Hypocricy
November 22, 2006 - 21:56 ET by Blondekafka...
Talk about the bloody pot making fun of the kettle, my fine german friend....
BTW, very nice pick on the french, again.
Hello....kafka! Wake up!!!!
Whereas we Americans just snipe at the French...you Germans have a nastly little habit of invading them.
WTH were you thinking when you posted that?
Shame on you.
Unsane..in all reality, Eisen
November 21, 2006 - 11:31 ET by bassndudeUnsane..in all reality, Eisenhower was not the one to send the first advisors into Vietnam, it was Truman. Eisenhower did increase their numbers tho, but did not allow them to travel into the field with those they trained.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Truman? I bet the French ar
November 21, 2006 - 12:14 ET by UnsaneTruman? I bet the French are still pissed about that...
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
When is that jagoff gonna g
November 21, 2006 - 01:32 ET by TeddyWhen is that jagoff gonna get canceled?
Reruns of Walker Texas Ranger
November 21, 2006 - 01:38 ET by ChemicalOperatorReruns of Walker Texas Ranger get higher ratings than Olbermann.
I will laugh the day his show is cancelled.
This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave.
It was France's mess that the
November 21, 2006 - 01:51 ET by mattmIt was France's mess that they turned over to us. Olbermental is an idiot if he thinks communism didn't spread after we left*-he's a perfect example of it.
*In fact, he's an idiot anyway.
Olbermann: "The domino t
November 20, 2006 - 23:41 ET by GalvanicOlbermann: "The domino theory was nonsense, sir. Our departure from Vietnam emboldened no one."
Just ask the Laotions victimized by the Pathet Lao. Just ask the Cambodians who survived the Khmer Rouge's reign of terror, which included a Vietnamese invasion, after we withdrew from SE Asia. Millions died in SE Asia AFTER we pulled out.
Olbermann: "Communism did not spread like a contagion around the world."
Well, after Vietnam, a number of countries either fell to the Commies, or suffered long Communist insurgencies. Laos, Cambodia, Angola, Mozambique, to name a few. And by the end of the Carter Administration, the Soivet Union was in Afghanistan. And in the '60s, Communist insurgencies were threatening Malaya (suppressed by the Brits), Indonesia, and the Philippines. In the '70s, there were Marxist movements all over Central and South America, and the Maoist Sendero Luminso (Shining Path) in Peru.
In short, there were more countries under Communist regimes or battling Communist/Marxist/Maoist insurgencies after 1973 than there were before 1973. Sounds like a domino theory and a contagion to me.
Are they forgotten on the dustbin of history? For the most part, yes, thanks in large part to US resistence inspired and led by Ronald Reagan.
Olbermann further contended that one lesson Bush should have learned from Vietnam is that "if you lie us into a war, your war and your presidency will be consigned to the scrap heap of history."
Ooooh. That smarts, Herr Olbermann. Consigned to the scrap heap of history? So clever. Is that anything like being consigned to the scrap heap of TV ratings?
We have our new Secretary of Defense
November 21, 2006 - 00:16 ET by SportPoliticsWe have our new Secretary of Defense, Herr Olberflee-er.
lol-
Thanks Galvanic! It is amaz
November 21, 2006 - 08:08 ET by The Real TonyThanks Galvanic! It is amazing the hypocrisy of Olbermann. Vietnam became properous AFTER we pulled out. Amazing! So "prosperous" has a new definition I wasn't aware of; where the scientists, teachers and engineers were rounded up and killed thereby putting the country a century behind the rest of the modern world. Wow. I must remember to get a new Funk & Wagnall's before the week is up so I can find out what else I don't know.
My best friend's wife just emigrated here from Vietnam. I think she would most happily refute anything Olbermann and his minions can creatively lie about. She lived through the war and saw it firsthand. She is so grateful to be here it is indescribable. By the way, she is also a devout Roman Catholic and so was her family. As she freely admits, it was their faith in God that saw them through the horrors.
But this dope Olbermann knows better. Yeah right. I don't know whether to be shocked that he is still on the air or be amazed at this land of opportunity.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
Here's a question for Olberma
November 21, 2006 - 12:49 ET by GalvanicHere's a question for Olbermann: We know that hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese nationals have fled the country since the fall of Saigon. How many people have immigrated to the "prosperous" Vietnam?
I've been a life-long conse
November 20, 2006 - 23:53 ET by blogonatorI've been a life-long conservative and I can't stand Olbermann, but more and more, I see sense in his special comments and find myself becoming a republican of conservative ideals who is disliking this president more and more. And really what's wrong with that? There are good republican presidents and bad ones... it doesn't mean I'm crossing over to the dark side (libs) or want the terrorists to win.
KO (Yuck)
November 21, 2006 - 00:06 ET by BlondeBlogonator,
I must confess, up until the election two weeks ago, I had never seen Keith O's face on my TV screen.
And that was fine. Sorry I actually saw that ugly mug, and idiot comments, too.
I've read enough, here, about him, to know all I need to know..he's a bombastic mutt.
That's not to say that disillusionment with George Bush is without merit. But to take that position because KO is going ballistic, is way too much, well, at least for me.
I, myself, am not thrilled with many things (spending, spending, and more spending) that have been done by the current administration.
But I would never enumerate my complaints with the CIC in a time a time of war. That's a horse of an entirely different color.
How can you possible find anything of merit in what Keith spouts off about?
I don't get it. At all. Not in the least little bit.
This is the problem with empt
November 21, 2006 - 01:59 ET by mattmThis is the problem with empty-headed blowhards like Olbermanic; They pitch a fit and foam at the mouth and some people end up being persuaded just because of the level of vitriol - kinda like Hitler and Al Gore.
, I see sense in his special
November 21, 2006 - 00:07 ET by SMGalbraithI see sense in his special comments
Okay, I'll bite.
What "sense" is there in his special comments? He claims that we live under a "form of fascism". He claims that "dissent has been stifled". He claims that the threat or danger from Islamic terrorism has been greatly exagerrated. He claims that we must give habeas corpus rights to enemy combatants or we're violating the Constitution. He claims that Chris Wallace is part of the Rove and White House machine out to smear Clinton. Et cetera, et cetera ad nauseam.
If you see any "sense" in the above, we've got to talk.
And do you think it's appropriate for a self-described "news anchor" on a "news show" to give such commentaries? Either he's a straight news reporter or a commentator. Pick one.
SMG
I think there are many conser
November 21, 2006 - 00:19 ET by GalvanicI think there are many conservatives who are disappointed with Bush. Afterall, he never brought Congressional largess under control by exercising his veto power, and thus abandoned one of the cornerstones of conservatism: fiscal responsibility. He certainly has failed to sustain popular support for the Global War on Terrorism (a regretably unfortunate term to be sure). And conservatives can agree or disagree on the basis for the Iraq war and/or the way the war has been conducted.
But as I outlined in my repsonse to Olbermann's statements, Herr O is either ignorant of facts or deliberately selective in his arguments, and that's worthy of rebuttal.
I think there are many conser
November 21, 2006 - 00:27 ET by SMGalbraithI think there are many conservatives who are disappointed with Bush.
Agreed. But disappointed for entirely different reasons than those posited by the supposed "news anchor" Olbermann on his supposed "news show".
My response was originally intended for Blogonator.
My response was originally i
November 21, 2006 - 10:02 ET by GalvanicMy response was originally intended for Blogonator.
Mine, too.
LSD Works
November 21, 2006 - 00:32 ET by exLibSure a couple tabs of LSD and Olberman can make allot of sense.
I know from experience that sometimes you can get so angry that it is very similar to a drug high.
I think that Olberman has those kinds of reactions and causes them.
For me however, I listen to him and wonder what the heck is talking about. I think he sits around trolling the moonbat sites and takes the most outlandish ideas and vents them on his show.
I used to be pretty liberal, mostly from the social side, but never got into the "all republicans are bad by definition" kind of mentality although my wife did. Keith personifies that mentality to a tee.
Keith with his thinking that a re-write of history is going to fly just because it it's all anti-Bush is just spinning his wheels.
FYI,
There are plenty of "Conservative" talkers who destroy Bush from the Right and do a pretty good job of it. Jay Severin comes to mind first and foremost. He is a Buchanan conservative and claims to be a libertarian but won't vote that way because he's thinks it unwise.
Also,
Joe Scarborough usually has on a panel of 2-3 liberals against which he is supposed to be the "conservative" but he rarely defends Bush or any of his policies.
Unfortunately, Olbermann is m
November 21, 2006 - 00:00 ET by kubob21Unfortunately, Olbermann is merely being the epitome of the left in America these days, totally clueless about history. The reeducation camps of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia (later became the killing fields) were a direct result of the USA leaving the peoples of those countries to the mercy of their respective communist dictatorships. Sad that the left in America finds more to admire in the total lack of democracy of a communist dictatorship, than in the free elections here in the US that may elect conservatives. No, to them elections here are not about democracy, but a game to be cheated at with lies and propaganda from their buddies in the MSM to gain power to quash true democracy with judges and ballot initiatives who's true purpose is hidden.
Ladies and Gentlemen, there
November 21, 2006 - 00:06 ET by Uncle JohnLadies and Gentlemen, there's your "model for the newscast of the future". ROFLMAO.
"Special Comment"? Yeah, "Special" in a "short bus" kind of way... This twit thinks he's instructing someone? Maybe the three people who watched it live got something out of it, like an uncontrollable urge to rush to the bathroom...
Keep up the fine work, Keith. We're all counting on you.
So, Mr. Olbermann is a fairwe
November 21, 2006 - 00:18 ET by UnsaneSo, Mr. Olbermann is a fairweather communist now, huh? Or is he just a history idiot? Or, both?
Yeah, Vietnam has been SO prosperous since the United States left...it would have nothing at all to do with the fact that Hanoi has been taking steps, a la their hated enemy, China, to reduce their control of the economy, would it?
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
And who, I wonder (ok, I do
November 21, 2006 - 08:36 ET by sarcasmoAnd who, I wonder (ok, I don't!) could have been giving the Chinese all that good economics-101 advice?? The foreign policy comparison nobody wants to make isn't Vietnam & Iraq, but Vietnam & Cuba...
JMR
Someone get Olberman his me
November 21, 2006 - 00:22 ET by Richard RomanoSomeone get Olberman his meds; they clearly ran out! Goodness blogonator--sense? Perhaps you should drive Olberman to get his meds and take some yourself!
And he is
November 21, 2006 - 00:26 ET by Free StinkerThat picture of Olberman makes him look like a raving lunatic.
The things he says make him sound like a raving lunatic.
No wonder MSNBC is in trouble
November 21, 2006 - 00:35 ET by sandy1157His attacks on Bush are unreal and MSNBC must be crazy to let him rant on and on. By the way wasn't it the democratic royality that started the war in Nam? Wasn't his name JFK? Is his name in the scrap yard? I think it should be instead of being turned into some kind of God liberals and the media worship! He started the war in Nam and Nixon got the blame!
The Kennedy's never seem to get blamed for anything
November 21, 2006 - 00:45 ET by terrigIsn't it ironic that well most of us know (btw I have a Masters in History for those of you libs who think you know it all because you took a combat logistics class-well so did I) anywho it never ceases to amaze me that Kennedy and Johnson really aren't the stinkers in the History books regarding the Viet Nam war. The Kennedys as a whole never really get blamed for anything. Hell, Teddy killed someone and the people of MA put him back in office every six years. I don't know, it just seems to me that Kennedy's role in Viet Nam is one that tends to be overlooked.
Maybe Keith will remember to refill his meds, he's way overdue.
Know it all Leftist? Mich?
November 21, 2006 - 01:31 ET by Unsane(btw I have a Masters in History for those of you libs who think you know it all because you took a combat logistics class-well so did I) I hope you are not accusing me of being a Leftist. If you are, I will be compelled to ask you what on earth I have ever done to you to deserve that slap?
Yes, Eisenhower sent the first advisors. But Vietnam was very winnable, and a laudable effort as the purpose was to thwart communism. If LBJ and McNamara would have permitted his commanders in the field to prosecute the war and not micromanaged everything from DC, I suspect that there would still be a North and South Vietnam divided at the 17th Parallel even today.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Re: LBJ and McNamara
November 21, 2006 - 01:41 ET by misterbillRe: LBJ and McNamara I saw McNamara on Public TV one night about two years ago. He confessed to having F***d up 'Nam. He acknowledged that he had a staff of young inexperienced people and he ran with what they suggested. My nephew told me at that time('Nam), that rocket ammunition was assigned on a monthly allotment to combat helicopters. If they used up the allotment in a week, they went out w/o rockets. He was shot down three times in his two tours. Fortunately, he was never captured.
Duh
November 21, 2006 - 01:43 ET by UnsaneIndeed, I remember McNamara's "confession". I had one word for that in response. (Your sentiments exactly, perhaps?)
Duh.
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
McNamara
November 21, 2006 - 01:46 ET by misterbillMcNamara, I thought that in spite of his advanced years he should have been taken outside and stood against a wall. Then we should have given him a 21 gun salute.
McNamara
November 21, 2006 - 01:53 ET by BlondeWow, you two.
I've been doing a bit of research on Naval flight ops during Viet Nam. And I ran across an amazing quote.
I know I can't track it down now....but the entire military establishment hated McNamara then, and hates him to this day for what he did.
Trust me when I tell you....bean counters can't be trusted (and I am a number cruncher of the first degree!).
More on Vietnam
November 21, 2006 - 12:22 ET by UnsaneVietnam, from what I can remember from Every Man A TIger (damn I miss free, unfettered access to my library!), was divided for air ops purposes into seven areas, which made cooperation among the services and the designing of a single air strategy against the North Vietnamese impossible. Note that this was NOT the case during Desert Storm, and that is (among other things of course) that made that air campaign such a success.
Nor did it help our troops in Vietnam that LBJ was so scared of widening the conflict that bombing could not happen north of Hanoi, nor could Haiphong's harbor be mined, nor could targets be hit in Hanoi, nor could SAM emplacements be hit until they were fully operational...(etc)
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Unsane -- Nam--McNamara
November 21, 2006 - 12:35 ET by misterbillUnsane -- Nam--McNamara. I did a quick review of McN on the web last night. It reminded me of what he did for which he was praised from one side and roundly condemned from the other. He ran the war on "System Analysis". He had all his young staffies study cost efficiency. So, he saved some money! He killed a lot of military projects (planes and aromored vehicles) and tried to run the war on a budget! To what end?
On bean-counters
November 21, 2006 - 12:55 ET by UnsaneTo what end? Why, to perpetuate the employment opportunities of bean-counters in the DoD, of course...
(Perhaps war should be left to those well versed in matters military and liberal arts educations instead...)
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
Thats what you get when you l
November 21, 2006 - 13:05 ET by bassndudeThats what you get when you let politics get involved in military matters. Vietnam. Wars are best left to the men that fight them, and let them do what they think they need to do at the time, and keep your mouth shut about what they did. They will get home alot sooner without being hobbled by a nosy congress.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
More on Vietnam
November 21, 2006 - 12:22 ET by UnsaneVietnam, from what I can remember from Every Man A TIger (damn I miss free, unfettered access to my library!), was divided for air ops purposes into seven areas, which made cooperation among the services and the designing of a single air strategy against the North Vietnamese impossible. Note that this was NOT the case during Desert Storm, and that is (among other things of course) that made that air campaign such a success.
Nor did it help our troops in Vietnam that LBJ was so scared of widening the conflict that bombing could not happen north of Hanoi, nor could Haiphong's harbor be mined, nor could targets be hit in Hanoi, nor could SAM emplacements be hit until they were fully operational...(etc)
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
The result in Vietnam is wh
November 21, 2006 - 04:38 ET by MyKindaSpamThe result in Vietnam is what happens when Congress runs a war. I hope the new leadership in Congress keeps that in mind when the take office in January. A group of poll takers who worry more about positive PR in Paris and Beiruit than they do with winning shouldn't be dictating military strategy.
Bingo!! My sentiments exact
November 21, 2006 - 08:17 ET by The Real TonyBingo!! My sentiments exactly!!
Look how our country treated their greatest military leaders; Patton and McArthur? They lead our country to victory and wanted to proceed forward and both were summarily dismissed.
War is Hell. No matter how much planning and forethought, things happen and you have to react and then replan. Good military leaders recognize this and combine it with vision to accomplish the goal. A bunch of pandering suits in Washington, that cannot agree on simple items like a tax cut, (although no problem with pay raises for themselves) should NOT be driving military strategy.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
"should NOT be driving m
November 21, 2006 - 08:18 ET by ChemicalOperator"should NOT be driving military strategy."
They should not be driving a golf cart, let alone a military.
I have never understood how being elected to congress makes you a military genius. I am unaware of a training course for these officials, they are law makers, the generals are the warriors. Let the generals do their jobs.
This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave.
sandy...I am no kennedy lover
November 21, 2006 - 13:01 ET by bassndudesandy...I am no kennedy lover by any means, but to say that JFK started the war in Vietnam is not really correct. Kennedy allowed the advisors to accompany their counter parts into combat. Truman sent the very first advisors into Vietnam. We had CIA there sence before WW11 was over. The French were there before us. That war raged for a long time and to put the full blame on Kennedy, while he was the one that got us involved in a combat roll, is not really fair.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
This was cheered by all 9 o
November 21, 2006 - 01:25 ET by hawkrock60This was cheered by all 9 of the people watching.
Actually, that would have bee
November 21, 2006 - 01:28 ET by Free StinkerActually, that would have been 8 people cheering. Newsbusters usually has somebody wacthing this loon so we don't have to! ;-)
It takes a mental hazmat su
November 21, 2006 - 08:08 ET by KStormIt takes a mental hazmat suit to watch Olbermann, and there aren't too many of those in existence. Kudos to NB for enduring the spitwads so we don't have to!
9 senile people in a retireme
November 21, 2006 - 01:34 ET by ChemicalOperator9 senile people in a retirement home in Ohio, They lost the remote shortly after the 2000 elections and havnt been able to change the channel since.
As an interesting side note, When Olbermanns show was first aired, the request for tranquilizers went up 350% and so did the amount of people mysteriously throwing themselves down flights of stairs.
This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave.
Heheh, Chem... when does Olb
November 22, 2006 - 04:41 ET by Andrew H.Heheh, Chem... when does Olberman baby run out of nutty things to say? Just keep rehashing the lies and character assination over and over until he finds a real job. There's plenty of "news" outlets who would hire them but they can't because they're losing money. I like that part of it a lot.
Never relent.
Its kind of fun to watch him
November 22, 2006 - 04:45 ET by ChemicalOperatorIts kind of fun to watch him flounder, Hes slowly sinking his own ship. Liberal monopoly of the media is a thing of the past and he needs to realize it, or go back to sportscenter.
This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave.
Olbermutt
November 21, 2006 - 01:31 ET by nkviking75Look at that huge head. Is Easter Island missing a statue?
(Sorry for snark over substance. He brings out my worst instincts.)
"I've been a life-long
November 21, 2006 - 02:45 ET by ckc1227"I've been a life-long conservative and I can't stand Olbermann, but more and more, I see sense in his special comments and find myself becoming a republican of conservative ideals who is disliking this president more and more. And really what's wrong with that? There are good republican presidents and bad ones... it doesn't mean I'm crossing over to the dark side (libs) or want the terrorists to win."
There's nothing wrong with having issues with the President, but if you have to make up issues, or see logic in those who make up issues, then I can only assume they and you are the real issue, not the President.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for someone to point out the lie that got us into the war.....
For decades we were warned
November 21, 2006 - 05:40 ET by MyKindaSpamFor decades we were warned that if we didn't stop 'communist aggression' in Vietnam, communist agitators would infiltrate and devour the smaller nations of the world, and make their insidious way, stealthily, to our doorstep.
The main difference is that THIS time, our enemy openly states that is their goal. If Keith doesn't want to take them at their word, I suggest he look at the numerous polls from Europe that detail these "agitators'" political beliefs and loyalties. Don't listen to us, listen to them.
The domino theory was nonsense, sir. Our departure from Vietnam emboldened no one. Communism did not spread like a contagion around the world...And yet President Bush just saw the grim reminders of that trip into hell...of the genocide in the neighboring country of Cambodia which we triggered.
Who does Keith think was doing the killing in Cambodia? It wasn't Buddhists or Capitalists. It was the Communists! Another reader pointed out that he is also wrong about the spread of Communism around the world and in our neighborhood. I guess if he says these things enough, they will eventually become true. After all, it's worked for the media.
Doesn't he read? For that matter, doesn't he even watch his own network? Communism is going strong and spreading to this day. A Communist was just elected in Nicaragua. There was a successful regime change in Cuba. North Korea went nuclear. There is a rapid Chinese military and technological buildup. Yeah. Communism is dead in the world, and Communists offer no threat. Someone needs to get this guy a library card.
Just because I can't help mys
November 21, 2006 - 08:28 ET by The Real TonyJust because I can't help myself; let us not forget that France elected a communist years ago and Spain did just recently. The soldiers of this great nation fought and many of them died to save Europe from fascism and communism..and these twerps revert right back to it.
Useless.
Fight Terrorism at home - defeat a liberal!
Misterbill said, "save
November 21, 2006 - 10:53 ET by MyKindaSpamMisterbill said, "save Europe from facism and commumism...and these twerps revert right back to it." Since Europe never moved away from communism, how could they "revert" back to it? You're being too generous by giving them the very undeserved credit of realizing the *flaws* of communism at some point.
I would normally just snicker at their enthusiasm for this ideology that makes everyone equal...equal in their misery (except for important Party members, though), but we are seeing how those kind of beliefs effect us now. Those Europeans are driving the thought and policy in the US that divides and hurts us. I wish they were useless in other areas than our opinions, but they are, unfortunately, useful in American politics, education, business and culture. We need more exposure of what they really stand for and what their goals are to render them truly useless.
o'dor-ta-chic-squeezer
November 21, 2006 - 06:22 ET by foolnomoremanys thanks!!! for history lesson and insightful reading, i must go fill o'decay's truth receptacle, one Mm moorrre time..
bless and support the troops <> savage,serevin,anne,michelle,laura,2008
Olbermann further contended t
November 21, 2006 - 09:55 ET by Dave ROlbermann further contended that one lesson Bush should have learned from Vietnam is that "if you lie us into a war, your war and your presidency will be consigned to the scrap heap of history."
Methinks Keith is confusing Mr. Bush with Lyndon Johnson.
Gulf of Tonkin, anyone?
It appears Keith Olbermann's ignorance of history is on par with his ignorance on just about everything else.
At least he is consistent.
Considering spending level
November 21, 2006 - 09:59 ET by sarcasmoConsidering spending level increases, let's just say Keith's not exactly the first to make the comparison between these 2 big-government-lovin' Texans...
JMR
Good Point
November 21, 2006 - 12:21 ET by Wineguy13Is KO referring to LBJ or JFK? Perhaps he thinks that RMN lied us into war ten years after the start of our involvement. Certainly the conventional wisdom on LBJ's tenure is at worst a solid C, while the CW on JFK has him as the second coming. Only RMN's administration resides in the 'scrap heap of history', so either Olbermann knows that nobody will actually check his facts, or he simply doesn't think critically before he rants. I believe it is a combination of both.
We don't care what Olbermouth
November 21, 2006 - 10:15 ET by sembyWe don't care what Olbermouth says - he's an idiot who does not have a clue about reality - he's mentally unfit and so is NBC for hiring the bumbling idiot!
Again with mantra that the
November 21, 2006 - 10:58 ET by happyuscitizen"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival." You ever hear of Sir Winston Churchill Keith? There you go again with mantra that the war is lost, when as like in Vietnam the US military, of which was a majority draftee army, had some tough battles and fought valiantly, and now we are experiencing the same thing our troops are fighting hard and meeting each and every challenge and winning on the ground.
Here's an example of the type of people who believe in what they are doing and I found it on the Seattle Post Intelligencer's website which surpised me, to give up as Olbermann and his echo chamber pals insist on would dishonor men and women that have given so much.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003436814_greenberet18.html
"Old Bad Lay" Olbermann needs to read the biography General Võ Nguyên Giáp in regards to his post-Tet Offensive feelings about the chances for success of his forces. The NVA was in shambles, the VC decimated, and Giap was worried about repelling a US invasion of the North, because they had put all of their eggs in the proverbial basket. We are currently in a similar situation when Westmoreland wanted more troops to finish the job, we have know-nothings ala Walter Cronkite and Olbermann belly-aching we have lost. We didn't lose Vietnam militarily, and we are not losing Iraq now militarily, it is the same ineptitude by the politicians that stand to insure a loss.
By the way Cronkite was nowhere near the action during Tet with his flak jacket and helmet when he proclaimed the "war is lost", that was a couple of miles down the road, and Olbermann and his ilk are trying to do it again. The utopia the media envisions of no conflict with the UN as the arbiter of all disagreements does not exist. Here's another from Sir Winston, "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."
Oh and by the way Communism failed, Capitalism is prevailing, and Keith, Vietnam and China are successful Totalitarian Capitalist countries.
However, when tools like Olbermann wrap themsleves in the blanket of freedom provided to them by those whom they look down upon, plays to the propaganda talking points of the Mahdi Army, and al-Qaeda. Keith is one of those that supports the troops, but..... only if there is a good public relations opportunity for him like most of these talking heads.
The troops need to be unleashed and put down the militias and insurgents. They are more than capable to get the job done. The squeamish can cry for the terrorists, murderers, and thieves their obstructionist/seditious behavior is helping after the fact. The only way home for the troops is a lot of dead terrorists.
I will leave you all with this quote from Sir Winston and in this holiday season say a prayer over your hala Turkey and be thankful that these words are still true today.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
Enough with this sophomore
November 21, 2006 - 12:15 ET by Wineguy13I suggest that NB eschew any more posts about Olbermann's Special Comment pieces. As a self-important third-rate host and self-described liberal, we should not be surprised he makes statements such as this. It has little purpose but to get the users riled up and waste space. Indeed, the contributers on this site do not see fit to comment on most of the drivel spewing forth from Air America. So why waste time with this guy's rants?
P.S. I do wish someone would tell KO that the guy from The Village Voice is not funny and painful to have to sit through even for a Liberal.
I wouldn't doubt that Vietnam
November 21, 2006 - 12:48 ET by bacher468I wouldn't doubt that Vietnam is more prosperous now. The slaughter that took place after we withdrew should mean that there are more than enough jobs to go around for everyone left, particularly in the body disposal industry.
"You mean I'm going to STAY this color??" - Navin Johnson, Modern Day Renaissance Man
Can any liberal tell me what
November 21, 2006 - 13:02 ET by paperheadCan any liberal tell me what war they would fight if they had to? Apparently, you guys want to lose the war on terror. If we leave Iraq right now, that is what will happen. When we left Vietnam, we were met with thousands of refugees fleeing their country. Unfortunately, this time, we will be met with the terrorists that will follow us home. Olbermann reminds me a lot of Hitler, ranting and raving like a lunatic with the liberals in this country just waiting on every vile word that comes out of his mouth. When is Abrams going to come to his senses and fire this idiot.
Olbermann further contended t
November 21, 2006 - 14:10 ET by ghotifunOlbermann further contended that one lesson Bush should have learned from Vietnam is that "if you lie us into a war, your war and your presidency will be consigned to the scrap heap of history."
It is no secret that the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, used as an excuse to increase U.S. troop involvement in Viet Nam, was, uh, embellished, shall we say?
And just who authorized that embellishment? Why, none other than the socialist LBJ!
Talk about lies leading us to war!
As near as I can tell, similarities to Viet Nam and Iraq are very few: the politicians won't (didn't) let the men on the ground fight so that victory can (could) be assured and bad decisions by the politicians led to the deaths of American troops.
We have a real need to be in Iraq. Certainly, at the time, the fear of the Domino Theory necessitated our presence in Viet Nam.
Will LBJ's presidency be consigned to the scrap heap of history? Thanks to his efforts, we have a welfare state...
Swiftboating of a Hero
November 21, 2006 - 15:17 ET by George2107The real leason in this story is that every time information is provided that a liberal does not like they claim "swiftboating." Well let us remember that the Swift Boat Vets were there and had first hand knowledge of the real facts; that Kerry did not serve a full four years of active duty as he agreed to do; that he has not provided information or records to show that he attended reserve training as required since he didn't serve a full four years on active duty; that he has not authorized the release of his military records as he promised to do; and that his discharge that he provided on his web page was not issued until the Carter Administration. more than four years after his service obligation was completed. Has anyone seen the actual discharge certificate with the code that shows the section of military regulat