The Friday broadcast network evening newscasts, seemingly with no self-awareness of the role of the traveling press corps, all focused on how in Vietnam President Bush was pressed about comparisons of the Iraq war to the Vietnam war -- a topic he commented on only when asked by a U.S. reporter. CBS was the most adamant in raising parallels, Bush's avoidance of service in Vietnam and how he is now “creating another” Vietnam. Katie Couric declared that Bush “couldn't get away from the inevitable comparisons between Iraq and the war America lost in Vietnam.” Over vintage video of the Vietnam war, Jim Axelrod asserted that the Iraq war “is starting to look more and more like this war. The parallels are plain.” Axelrod contended that “Mr. Bush's trip here was bound to fuel his critics who've never bought his explanation about how he managed to avoid military service in Vietnam. But Iraq raises the stakes and changes the focus from what he did during the Vietnam War to whether he's creating another one. On a just-released audiotape, President Johnson in 1966 shared his goals for Vietnam." Following audio of LBJ promising the U.S. would leave Vietnam “just as soon as you can have anybody that will guarantee stability," Axelrod intoned: "Mr. Bush's remarks today had an eerie echo as he spoke about Iraq."
On ABC's World News, fill-in anchor Elizabeth Vargas insisted "the war in Iraq shadowed President Bush today during his visit to Vietnam” as the Vietnam war “has drawn comparisons to America's experience in Iraq.” From Vietnam, Martha Raddatz echoed Couric: “For President Bush, the comparisons to his own war in Iraq were inevitable.” NBC anchor Brian Williams announced that “the topic of the current war followed” Bush “all the way” to Vietnam. David Gregory, in Vietnam, also used the “inevitable” characterization of the comparison made by journalists: “The White House tried to avoid reflecting on the war in Vietnam because of the inevitable comparisons to the Iraq war.” Gregory asserted that “the obvious parallel between Vietnam and Iraq is the American public's desire to find a way out,” and though the Vietnamese are still oppressed in a communist state, Gregory suggested the U.S. won: “But if there is a hopeful sign in the Vietnam of today, prosperous and western-looking, it is this -- that it is possible to lose the war but win the peace." (Transcripts, and a little bit on the morning shows, follows)
Bush's comments, outside the Sheraton in Hanoi where he took questions from reporters as he stood with Australian Prime Minister John Howard, occurred a little past 2am EST Friday morning, a bit past 1pm local time Friday in Vietnam. I was unable to locate video of the exchange with reporters, so don't know who asked the question comparing Vietnam with Iraq, but the White House transcript provides this as the question which generated the soundbites of Bush on which the networks pounced: “Are there lessons here for the debate over Iraq?”
In the morning, Friday's Today show put this tag on-screen during Kelly O'Donnell's story, “Vietnam Visit: Lessons for Iraq.” Over on ABC's Good Morning America, the MRC's Megan McCormack noticed, anchor Chris Cuomo set up a 7am news update report: "President Bush is in Vietnam today bringing back memories of the unpopular war fought there and comparisons to the current war in Iraq." Jessica Yellin relayed from Vietnam: "Touching down here in Vietnam, President Bush was immediately confronted with comparisons between the war America fought and lost here 30 years ago and what some critics call the quagmire in Iraq.”
The MRC's Brad Wilmouth corrected the closed-captioning against the video for the stories on the November 17 CBS and NBC evening newscasts (I handled ABC):
CBS Evening News:
Katie Couric: "Meanwhile, no surprise, President Bush faced plenty of questions about Iraq as he became only the second American President to visit Vietnam since that war. He's in Hanoi for an economic summit, but he couldn't get away from the inevitable comparisons between Iraq and the war America lost in Vietnam. Chief White House correspondent Jim Axelrod is traveling with the President."Jim Axelrod: "Meeting in Vietnam with one of his strongest allies on Iraq, Australian Prime Minister John Howard, President Bush would not rule out sending even more troops to fight the war there."
George W. Bush, outside with Australian Prime Minister John Howard: "We've got a lot of people looking at different tactical adjustments. Once I make up my mind what those will be, I'll share it with him right off the bat."
Axelrod: "With pressure building at home to bring U.S. soldiers back from Iraq, Mr. Bush was asked if America's experience in Vietnam held any lessons for today."
Bush: "We tend to want there to be instant success in the world, and the task in Iraq is going to take a while."
Axelrod, over vintage video of the Vietnam war: "The President's trip to Vietnam is inviting the last comparison the White House wants made -- that this war is starting to look more and more like this war. The parallels are plain. For President Lyndon Johnson, Vietnam was part of a broader ideological battle against communism. For President Bush, Iraq is the central front in fighting terrorism. Even without the Iraq War, Mr. Bush's trip here was bound to fuel his critics who've never bought his explanation about how he managed to avoid military service in Vietnam. But Iraq raises the stakes and changes the focus from what he did during the Vietnam War to whether he's creating another one. On a just-released audiotape, President Johnson in 1966 shared his goals for Vietnam."
Lyndon Johnson audio: "We'll come home and we'll be out of there just as soon as you can have anybody that will guarantee stability."
Axelrod: "Mr. Bush's remarks today had an eerie echo as he spoke about Iraq."
Bush: "We're not leaving until this job is done, until Iraq can govern, sustain and defend itself."
Axelrod: "Right now, U.S. troops are bogged down, domestic opposition is growing, a presidency is under fire -- a description that fits Iraq and loudly resonates here as well. Jim Axelrod, CBS News, Hanoi."
ABC's World News with Charles Gibson, but anchored by Elizabeth Vargas:
Elizabeth Vargas: “The war in Iraq shadowed President Bush today during his visit to Vietnam, the second stop in his trip to Asia. The U.S., of course, fought a long and unpopular war in Vietnam, a war that has drawn comparisons to America's experience in Iraq. Our chief White House correspondent, Martha Raddatz, is traveling with the President. She joins us now from Hanoi, where it is now Saturday morning. Martha?”
Martha Raddatz: “Elizabeth, this visit has really become a story of two wars: The war the U.S. is involved in now in Iraq and the war it was involved in more than 30 years ago. The President was greeted as a friend of Vietnam today, promoting capitalism and trade in a country which fell to communism in 1975. Tonight, at a state dinner, the President toasted his communist hosts.”
President Bush: “For decades, you had been torn apart by war. Today, the Vietnamese people are at peace.”
Raddatz: “One of the first things the President saw on his drive into Hanoi today was the lake where Senator John McCain was captured after his aircraft was struck by a missile during the war.”
President Bush: “He suffered a lot as a result of this imprisonment. He was literally saved, in one way, by the people pulling him out.”
Raddatz: “George Bush is only the second U.S. President to visit Vietnam since the war ended in 1975 -- Bill Clinton was the first. But for President Bush, the comparisons to his own war in Iraq were inevitable. President Bush was asked today if there are lessons to be learned in Iraq from the Vietnam experience.”
President Bush outside with Australian Prime Minister John Howard: “One lesson is, is that we tend to want there to be instant success in the world. And the task in Iraq is going to take a while. [edit jump] We'll succeed unless we quit.”
Martha Raddatz: “Chuck Searcy, a Vietnam vet, runs the Vietnam Memorial Fund here in Hanoi, an organization that honors the memory of U.S. vets.”
Chuck Searcy, Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund: “The Vietnamese actually feel some sadness, I think, for Americans that we again find ourselves in a very difficult dilemma. They really feel kind of sorry for us.”
Raddatz: “We spoke to Nguyen Duy Thos, a former Viet Cong soldier who says the two wars should not be compared. 'The U.S. was trying to overthrow the government in Vietnam,’ he said. 'In Iraq, the U.S. is trying to help.’ Later today, the President will visit a POW/MIA command center, Elizabeth. There are still 1,800 military personnel who are unaccounted for here.”
NBC Nightly News:
Brian Williams: "The President of the United States is tonight in Vietnam. As they say, it's a new world, and that is what the President is finding in Vietnam, even though the topic of the current war followed him all the way there. Our chief White House correspondent David Gregory is traveling with the President in Hanoi."
David Gregory: "Thirty years after America's unsuccessful war in this country, a U.S. President was greeted in Hanoi as a friend. The Vietnamese lined the streets to catch a glimpse of the presidential motorcade speeding through Hanoi's sprawling commercial district. Today the White House tried to avoid reflecting on the war in Vietnam because of the inevitable comparisons to the Iraq War. Still, Mr. Bush said, there are lessons."
George W. Bush: "One lesson is, is that we tend to want there to be instant success in the world, and the task in Iraq is going to take a while. We'll succeed unless we quit."
Gregory: "Vietnam War historian Stanley Karnow thinks Iraq and Vietnam are very different conflicts, but he does see similarities.”
Stanley Karnow, historian: "Well, we're making the mistake of not understanding what the nature of the countries we're fighting in."
Gregory: "The President said one of the most poignant moments of his drive into Hanoi was when he passed a Truc Bach Lake where Arizona Senator John McCain, then a Navy pilot, was captured after his war plane was shot down. A baby boomer who was not eager to fight in the war that defined his generation, the President said his first ever trip to Vietnam left him amazed."
Bush: "History has a long march to it and that societies change and relationships can constantly be altered to the good."
Gregory: "These days the U.S.-Vietnamese relationship is all about closer economic ties, a message Mr. Bush underscored in a series of meetings here today, including a visit to Communist Party headquarters where the President sat beneath a bronze bust of Ho Chi Minh. The obvious parallel between Vietnam and Iraq is the American public's desire to find a way out. But if there is a hopeful sign in the Vietnam of today, prosperous and western-looking, it is this: that it is possible to lose the war but win the peace."
—Brent Baker is Vice President for Research and Publications at the Media Research Center





Lyndon Johnson audio: "We'll come home and we'll be out of there just as soon as you can have anybody that will guarantee stability."
Elizabeth Vargas: “The war in Iraq shadowed President Bush today during his visit to Vietnam, the second stop in his trip to Asia. The U.S., of course, fought a long and unpopular war in Vietnam, a war that has drawn comparisons to America's experience in Iraq. Our chief White House correspondent, Martha Raddatz, is traveling with the President. She joins us now from Hanoi, where it is now Saturday morning. Martha?”
Raddatz: “George Bush is only the second U.S. President to visit Vietnam since the war ended in 1975 -- Bill Clinton was the first. But for President Bush, the comparisons to his own war in Iraq were inevitable. President Bush was asked today if there are lessons to be learned in Iraq from the Vietnam experience.”
Brian Williams: "The President of the United States is tonight in Vietnam. As they say, it's a new world, and that is what the President is finding in Vietnam, even though the topic of the current war followed him all the way there. Our chief White House correspondent David Gregory is traveling with the President in Hanoi."
Gregory: "These days the U.S.-Vietnamese relationship is all about closer economic ties, a message Mr. Bush underscored in a series of meetings here today, including a visit to Communist Party headquarters where the President sat beneath a bronze bust of Ho Chi Minh. The obvious parallel between Vietnam and Iraq is the American public's desire to find a way out. But if there is a hopeful sign in the Vietnam of today, prosperous and western-looking, it is this: that it is possible to lose the war but win the peace."









Comments Policy
Of course there is a comparis
November 17, 2006 - 22:45 ET by pocomocoOf course there is a comparison with Viet Nam and Iraq.
When the Democrats pulled the rug out from under the military in Viet Nam by cutting funding, it is estimated that, in the ensuing years, two million Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians were murdered. They, in effect, became nothing more than 'political fodder' for the Democrats.
If the Democrats, once again, cut and run, it will be deja vu all over again for the Iraqi people resulting in more 'political fodder'.
During Vietnam War, Cheney &q
November 18, 2006 - 01:43 ET by joe conservativeDuring the Vietnam War, Cheney "cut" out of his college class to "run" to get his deferment which he performed successfully five times during the conflict.
Troll."I would also say
November 18, 2006 - 01:49 ET by BlondeTroll.
Blonde....I don't think Joe i
November 18, 2006 - 01:54 ET by ww thumperBlonde....I don't think Joe is
conservative
a "troll"
but not...... I wonder if he will ever say anything intelligent someday?? :^} Political correctness when dealing with Islam will kill america....ww
ww
November 18, 2006 - 02:04 ET by Blondeww,
I've decided when someone acts like an idiot troll here, instead of "engaging", I'm just going to post one word....."troll".
It's an experiment. But it seems to be working. So far.
Blonde Your almost
November 18, 2006 - 02:07 ET by ww thumperBlonde Your almost as bratty as I am. :^))) ww
Blonde Says: I'm just going
November 18, 2006 - 19:32 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsBlonde Says: I'm just going to post one word....."troll".
Hmmm, a starvation diet. Just might work!
DSG
Thanks, DFTT,You never know.
November 18, 2006 - 19:39 ET by BlondeThanks, DFTT,
You never know. And with a screen name like yours (which I really like, but always want to type it as DFFT for some reason)....you'd be the best judge of that!
Hm....starve a troll, feed a fever?
Laughing.
OK OK
November 18, 2006 - 19:44 ET by misterbillOK OK, I know we shouldn't correct each other, but the use of the name troll, unfortunately has a good side to it.
Troll:
1.(in Scandinavian folklore) any of a race of supernatural beings, sometimes conceived as giants and sometimes as dwarfs, inhabiting caves or subterranean dwellings. 2.Slang. a person who lives or sleeps in a park or under a viaduct or bridge, as a bag lady or derelict.
I prefer troglodyte:1.a prehistoric cave dweller. 2.a person of degraded, primitive, or brutal character. 3.a person living in seclusion. 4.a person unacquainted with affairs of the world. 5.an animal living underground.
Iraq is a mess. Are we forg
November 18, 2006 - 06:25 ET by joe conservativeIraq is a mess. Are we forgetting George W. Bush striding across the deck of that aircraft carrier with his mission accomplished banner?
Joe, The mission was accompli
November 18, 2006 - 10:10 ET by Dave RJoe,
The mission was accomplished. Saddam was removed from power, just as the U.N. had authorized. All George W. Bush did was carry out the policy of regime change in Iraq, which was the standing policy of the Clinton Administration.
Funny how you lefties seem to always conveniently forget that.
Bwaaahahahaha. Never heard
November 18, 2006 - 10:15 ET by Sua Sponte 75Bwaaahahahaha. Never heard that before and I'm quite sure it wouldn't do much if any good to even try and explain it to you.
So which province have you been serving in that is such a mess?
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Saddam Hussein was recently c
November 18, 2006 - 16:58 ET by UnsaneSaddam Hussein was recently chased from power to spider holes at the time that banner was to be found on the carrier. Mission accomplished. You Leftists amuse me by constantly citing that, thus demonstrating your complete ignorance of matters military.
If Iraq is SUCH a mess, how come regions of the country are getting FDI?
Your screen name is a perfect indication of the simple fact that Leftists are never honest about who they are and what they believe. If you are a conservative, I am an extreme Leftist, the very definition of "barking moonbat".
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy." -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)
You Leftists amuse me by cons
November 18, 2006 - 20:20 ET by Dave RYou Leftists amuse me by constantly citing that, thus demonstrating your complete ignorance of matters military.
Not to mention ignorance of everything else, too.
"Are we forgetting Georg
November 18, 2006 - 20:08 ET by NL207"Are we forgetting George W. Bush striding across the deck of that aircraft carrier with his mission accomplished banner?"
No. We are forgetting the 110 stories of both WTC towers plummeting into about a 30 foot heap of wreckage, snuffing out the lives of nearly 2700 of our fellow citizens in the process.
jos nonliberal (BS)
November 18, 2006 - 19:16 ET by misterbillWTF does Cheney's deferment or anyone else's have to do with this issue???
What does this non-sequitur h
November 18, 2006 - 20:03 ET by NL207What does this non-sequitur have to to with the point you were replying to? Nothing, that's what. You lose.
So predictable, so pathetic.I
November 17, 2006 - 23:54 ET by JacksonCalhounSo predictable, so pathetic.
I have absolutely no use for these chattering fools. They have no idea how insignificant they really are.
Well, at least President Bu
November 18, 2006 - 09:05 ET by Red JeepWell, at least President Bush didn’t go to Vietnam before the election, but why go at all? His advisors at the White House and the President had to know the press pinheads would knock themselves out with comparing Viet Nam to Iraq.
It really is disgusting to see David Gregory, Martha Raddatz, and Elizabeth Vargas as the face of the trips press coverage. David Gregory got the most out of one sentence: “A baby boomer who was not eager to fight in the war that defined his generation, the President said his first ever trip to Vietnam left him amazed." He got the concepts of baby boomer, draft dodger and stupid all in one sentence. Bet he gets a bonus.
I am beginning to think the White House should have its own press corps, with its own online newspaper that could be a fact check against people like Gregory etc.
Red Jeep, try whitehouse.gov.
November 18, 2006 - 18:38 ET by BufordRed Jeep, try whitehouse.gov. There is an entry called "Setting the record straight" that responds to some of the media disinformation.
Although it gets no press coverage, the posts are sent directly to the media.
Thank you for the info.
November 18, 2006 - 22:02 ET by Red JeepThank you for the info.
I’m stunned. I was
November 18, 2006 - 10:24 ET by Jack BauerI’m stunned. I was wondering what Gregory was doing during the Vietnam era as I assumed he was in his fifties.
Turns out David Gregory was born August 24, 1970. Can you imagine what this social drinker will look like in 20 years?
But I did find some interesting possible links between him, his wife and the Clintons.
His wife, Beth Wilkinson, is an executive vice president and the general counsel for Fannie Mae.
Which links Gregory’s wife directly to Jamey Gorelick – a personal friend of Hillary Clinton!
You see, Gorelick used to be Vice Chairman of Fannie Mae, until she bailed as it was going under to join the main law firm representing Fannie Mae.
That’s Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP: the world’s largest law firm:
WCPHD also provided 3 high powered lawyers to the 9/11 Commission and staff, to work alongside Gorelick in getting the cover-up and fix in.
Amongst the firms many legal triumphs is the infamous McCain-Feingold bill.
Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP represented Senators McCain and Feingold in getting legislation passed to make it illegal (in some cases) for citizens to donate money to political campaigns.
Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP opened up shop in China in November 2004. They also happen to be part of the lawyer fraternity for GOOGLE, who recently agreed to allow China to censor them.
Interesting, no?
Here's another interesting factoid: Remember a couple of years back, when there was a rush by US lawyers to Guantánamo Bay on their own time, to offer their services free to terrorists who are not US citizens and who are not detained in the US – and who hadn’t asked for them.
They've been busy little bees ever since filing lawsuits whose sole aim and purpose is to derail the war against Islamo- terrorism, and to cripple the US ability to gather intelligence to stop another 9/11.
Well you guessed, the leading law firm defending these foreign terrorists held in Gitmo pro bono (for free) is...
Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP - and Jamey Gorelick.
Turns out David Gregory was b
November 18, 2006 - 11:08 ET by Dave RTurns out David Gregory was born August 24, 1970.
So, he was five when the Siagon embassy was evacuated? Incredible. Like you, I always assumed he was much older.
Great post.
He already looks like Grand
November 18, 2006 - 11:29 ET by Jack BauerHe already looks like Grandma Moses to me. And he's only 36!!!! Wow.
Thanx for the hat-tip on the post.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
gregory 36????
November 18, 2006 - 19:19 ET by misterbillNah, his world knowledge IQ is not that high!
Jack,These people are so inte
November 18, 2006 - 11:15 ET by Indiana JoeJack,
These people are so intertwined, if politics were genetics, they'd be as inbred as the Kallikaks. Uncles marrying nieces, sisters with brothers, mothers with sons. It's shallow at their end of the political gene-pool.
(btw: 0.000000016667 %. Right? Or did I miss a "zero?")
Joe, buddy I'm taking your
November 18, 2006 - 11:27 ET by Jack BauerJoe, buddy I'm taking your word on that number, my brain will hurt trying to compute that in my head!
As to the political, familial and financial links between reporters and politicians. Yeah, this is really really important stuff. As such is is ignored by Gregory's media chums.
Note how rarely you'll ever see stories from MSM hacks on other MSM hacks?
It's much more important for Brian Ross to spend a year "investigating" slimey iams from Mark Foley...
I mean, who wants to know about the Clinton's links to BIG LAW firms run by pals like Jamey Gorelick who offer pro bono representation to foreign terrorists?
Not that I'm saying Foley wasn't a creep who should have been exposed, by the way. But what's more important?
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
Didn't do it in my head, Jack
November 18, 2006 - 11:41 ET by Indiana JoeDidn't do it in my head, Jack. Got this new-fangled thingy called a "cal-Q-later." LOL!!! But it gave an answer in something like "e (-10)," and converting THAT to decimal was a bit dicey. Anyway.....
To head off any "trolls" out there who might jump in with a "Foley WASN'T important???" type line, let's just say BOTH scandals were important.
The question then becomes, which deserved more coverage? And which got virtually NO coverage?
You know the answer to that one....
"It's deja vu all over again." - Yogi Berra
<edit> Just btw, it was YOUR "pop quiz." How do you grade it if you don't solve it? ... ;^D
I've always preferred fract
November 18, 2006 - 11:47 ET by Jack BauerI've always preferred fractions to percentages. Just the way I was taught way back. Much more elegant to say a quarter than 25%.
You say a quarter, and immediately a warm apple pie, not long out the oven, cut into four equal pieces with me eating one, Homer-like appears in my head.
Proud member of the all-powerful and vast
militarist/industrialist/capitalist/zionist-bagelist complex
"...with me eating one,
November 18, 2006 - 11:57 ET by Indiana Joe"...with me eating one, Homer-like..."
Sorry, Jack, but I think "Homer-like" would be you eating THREE!
If you mean "Simpson," and not the author of "The Illiad," that is!
LMAO!!!
Got to run. Son need food.
L8R, all. ... ;^D
If you mean "Simpson,&qu
November 18, 2006 - 14:56 ET by Dave RIf you mean "Simpson," and not the author of "The Illiad," that is!
Hey, how do we know the Homer that wrote The Illiad wasn't a beer-swilling gluttoness blob like Homer Simpson?
Point taken.But, was he yello
November 18, 2006 - 18:52 ET by Indiana JoePoint taken.
But, was he yellow? ... ;^D
The only parallel with Viet N
November 18, 2006 - 11:33 ET by Indiana JoeThe only parallel with Viet Nam that I can see (and I'm 50, so I remember. Missed service by a couple months), is that, like then, the press is whipping the public into a frenzy with daily "body counts," talk of an "unwinnable" war, and constant propaganda for the other side, ala "Hanoi Jane."
If anyone is making Iraq our "next Viet Nam," it's the press itself.
And the "bubbas" that are buying this batch of "boob bait." Only THESE "bubbas" aren't, by and large, rural "hicks." They're the urban "sophisticates."
urban "sophisticates.&qu
November 18, 2006 - 11:45 ET by Dave Rurban "sophisticates."
Is that a new term for a city-dwelling , mine doesn't stink but yours does, liberal elitist snob?
Dave,If you like, sure. But,
November 18, 2006 - 11:52 ET by Indiana JoeDave,
If you like, sure. But, I don't think it's really "new." I won't claim to have invented it, I've heard it before. As in, "sophisticated city socialites." From years ago.
But your definition pretty much covers my meaning. ... ;^)
Right
November 18, 2006 - 11:48 ET by iveseenitallRight, Indiana. Two comparisons - (1) the traitorous bastards in the press and on college campuses (2) the millions who died horribly after we cut and ran. BTW, I find it sickening how gleefully and assuredly people like Couric, Gregory, Williams, and the rest state that we "lost" the Vietnam War. We never did lose a battle, but to them we lost the war. Makes you think, no?.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
the most candid comparisons
November 18, 2006 - 12:07 ET by truconservethe most candid comparisons with both situations that come to mind is our apparent inability to really understand the peoples and cultures of both places, combined withour obsession with "winning" without defining "winning", and the selection of stategies that almost guarantee that we will never "win" anything without annihilating entire countries- if we want to call that "winning".
"we can stand down only when the lazy bums can stand up"..."what me worry? we won! mission accomplished, let's get the hell out"- alfred e neuman
"We'll succeed unless we quit."- george w bush- hanoi, vietnam, 2006
cultures
November 18, 2006 - 12:14 ET by iveseenitallHow sensitive. Understand their "culture". How about they understand ours.They never will and if we don't win in Iraq, they will win. And they've said,a thousand times, that they want to wipe us off the face of the earth. Boy, am I glad we didn't try to "understand" the Japanese "culture" when they snuck up and bombed Pearl Harbor. How terrible that we "won" WW I I. BTW, we stopped communism from spreading too quickly. That's why we were in Vietnam.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
So,that's why president Bush
November 18, 2006 - 12:26 ET by truconserveSo,that's why president Bush is visiting communist Vietnam? That's why China, Laos and Cambodia have communist governments?" That's why Afghanistan is being overrun with a combination of opium producing warlords and taliban?That why Osama Bin Laden is still alive in Pakistan? What happened to the American idea of justice regarding the real perpetrators of 9/11? Why does Thomas Kean and the 9/11 Commission state that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11? Are they all just a bunch of raving lunatics in your neocon-kill as many people as we can for no good reason-playbook?
"we can stand down only when the lazy bums can stand up." "what me worry? we won! mission accomplished, let's get the hell out." - alfred e neuman- timeless
"We'll succeed unless we quit."- george w bush- hanoi 2006
Names
November 18, 2006 - 12:34 ET by iveseenitallDon't you dare imply that I'm a "Killer" for disagreeing with you. And I'm probbly much older than you, so quit the "neocon" garbage.Name calling will get you nowhere. Your thinking is the same locally. If a kid says "F You" to his teacher, we should let him because of his "culture". You are wrong, sonny.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
you haven't answered any of m
November 18, 2006 - 12:51 ET by truconserveyou haven't answered any of my questions yet. and if you are over 60 you do have a few years on me- look at my profile if you want.
"we can stand down only when the lazy bums can stand up." "what me worry? we won! mission accomplished, let's get the hell out." - alfred e neuman- timeless
"We'll succeed unless we quit." george w bush- hanoi, vietnam 2006
BTw, big guy- you still have
November 18, 2006 - 12:39 ET by truconserveBTw, big guy- you still have not defined "winning" in Iraq. and all those "they" who are out to kill us- are you sure that they now live in Iraq and not Pakistan and Saudia Arabia? sound like you have a lot of respect for the freedom of the people of Iraq, when you want to hold them accountable for 9/11, and kill them.
"we can stand down only when the lazy bums can stand up." "what me worry? we won! mission accomplished, let's get the hell out." - alfred e neuman- timeless
"We'll succeed unless we quit.&quo
Sick
November 18, 2006 - 12:54 ET by iveseenitallTypical, illogical liberal thinking. Think as I do or you are a "killer"in the most vile sense. Americans have died so that people like you have the freedom to be on this blog. Your words are immature, worn out, and contemptible. Grow up.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
'Nam -we lost the war.
November 18, 2006 - 19:28 ET by misterbillisia
"We never did lose a battle, but to them we lost the war. Makes you think, no?."
I get angry before I think. How can we lose a war we won?? Because the press says so! Because we must remove our troops and abandon millions of people because if we don't the media will show us more pictures of people being napalmed. The press every day saying we had no right to be there and our troops were babykillers. Remember that???I just went through a little of this last night with my son's girlfriend. A whole generation of lemmings like the Berkely students of 'Nam. When I asked her where the hell she got her opinions re:'Nam, she said that is what she was taught in school. (She is 20.) It's not a good thing to say to your son's girl friend, but I got a little hot under the collar and I asked her to open her mind and find out the truth. The only historical things the young folks learn in school is that America is a bully and an aggressor. God save our country.
PS
November 18, 2006 - 19:32 ET by misterbillAnd then I, who was around at the time have to sit and listen to these brainwashed kids who weren't even born, tell me and each other what monsters Americans are. Well, I won't sit and listen to it. So to avoid some serious arguments, I usually don't get involved in discussions of this nature with young people.
misterbill
November 19, 2006 - 12:54 ET by iveseenitallMisterbill, you are so right. We have a reared a generation of brain-dead individuals who refuse to think beyond what they are hearing day in and day out from the MSM and their brilliant "professors". But,of course, the blame goes both ways. The liberals have no conscience when it comes to the tripe they are spewing to our kids. Most of the time they know they are lying to them. Both the MSM and the teachers have captive audiences. In schools, kids with differing points of view are actually threatened by the sickos who see the classroom not as a neutral learning environment to explore ideas, but as a podium for propaganda.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
isia - depression
November 19, 2006 - 13:40 ET by misterbillisia - depression has set in and I am trying to overcome it. I am at a stage in my life where the mindlessness of most people makes me feel nervous about our country. In my personal life, I have had some setbacks too. I see a nation where public officials have an amoral attitude about payoffs, etc. I see law enforcement officials who are more concerned with their conviction records than with justice. I cannot blame them since they are judged by their numbers rather than their fairness. I see a whole generation of young folks who do not have a clue that they are giving away this country. I honestly believe that over the next few years there will be another major attack against our country. And even worse, I believe there will be Americans who will attempt to justify those attacks as being caused by we ugly Americans. I am trying to keep a positive attitude. I am even more nervous when I see a fool like Pelosi in a seat of power. BOR calls it "San Francisco values", and I am afraid I agree.
I believe in the power of prayer and I pray each day for my country. I also pray that my son and his friends wake up and smell the roses that are America and are willing to defend it.
Vietnam
November 18, 2006 - 18:17 ET by pbthinkerYou forgot the one parallel that I find amazing, after the Democrats lost the election, in 1968, they conveniently turned Vietnam in "Nixon's War" and tried to make everyone forget about LBJ. Now they say, "This is Bush's War." like the United States isn't having any casualties or they're all GWB's and they never voted for it. Why the American Public didn't hold them accountable for their actions is beyond me, and I am a Vietnam Vet.
You're right, pbt, that one e
November 18, 2006 - 19:01 ET by Indiana JoeYou're right, pbt, that one eluded me.
However, I will plead that there's no denying that we went into Iraq under GWB. So the parallel is not so precise.
Even though the Dems deny any responsibility, conveniently "forgetting" that they authorized the invasion, we still have GWB for President, so they can more easily lay it on his doorstep. And will continue to, even when their forced "redeployment" results in the disaster any sane person can see it will cause.
But the point does have some merit, I grant you that.
Raddatz: “We spoke to Nguye
November 18, 2006 - 12:57 ET by Dave RRaddatz: “We spoke to Nguyen Duy Thos, a former Viet Cong soldier who says the two wars should not be compared. 'The U.S. was trying to overthrow the government in Vietnam,’ he said. 'In Iraq, the U.S. is trying to help.’
Very interesting line, that is.
The war in Vietnam ended when I was eleven years of age. I remember very little of it, except that my parents, particularly my mom, didn’t like for me to watch news reports about it. I had to sneak into another room to see any of them. Eventually, I learned that my mom had lost several friends in that conflict. In the years since, I have read numerous books about Vietnam and the war, including the work by Stanley Karnow mentioned in the story.
I have long felt the one of the reasons we engaged the North Vietmanese in a war, aside from trying to prevent a communist take-over of South Vietnam, was to demonstrate to the Soviet Union that we were willing to fight to prevent the spread of Marxist/Leninist slavery, much like we had done in Korea the decade before. (Incidentally, I believe that we were in Korea for essentially the same reasons we later were in Vietnam.)
I believe we are in Iraq for most of the same reasons as Korea and Vietnam, only, this time it is to overthrow a dictatorship (which we have done) and, like Korea and Vietnam, to prevent Iraq from being enslaved, this time not by Marxist/Leninists, but by their Islamo-Fascist cousins. We are also trying to prevent Iraq from becoming a training ground for terrorists. I also believe that part of it is to send a message to Islamo-Fascists in other parts of the word that we aren’t going to put up with further expansion of Islamo-Fascism into the western world. This, to me, is where the similarities essentially end.
Like Korea, North Vietnam was never a direct threat to this country. The Islamo-Fascists, however, are. They have now successfully attacked this country, or its interests, six times in recent years, the latest successful being September 11, 2001. Prior to that, we were hit five times during the Clinton years (for which fact I am calling BS on the assertion by the dims and their briefcase-carriers in the MSM that George W. Bush is responsible for Islamic-Fascist terrorism.) We were nearly hit with a major attack a few months back, but, fortunately, that attack was thwarted. I am sure there have been numerous other planned attacks, some major, some not, that didn’t come off either, and that we will probably never even know about.
It is beyond me why the so-called enlightened members of the MSM appear to be utterly incapable of making this distinction.
what countries did these terr
November 18, 2006 - 13:08 ET by truconservewhat countries did these terrorists who attacked us come from?
"we can stand down only when the lazy bums can stand up." "what me worry? we won! mission accomplished, let's get the hell out." - alfred e neuman- timeless
"We'll succeed unless we quit.&quo
THAT TEARS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
November 18, 2006 - 13:24 ET by Dave RTHAT TEARS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Truconserve, have you ever heard of the concept of draining the swamp? No? Well, that just proves that George W. Bush, along with the rest of the people in charge of this war, know a hell of a lot more about Islamic history than you do.
If you knew anything at all about Islam, you would know that Muslims are commanded by the Koran (Quran?-or however they are spelling it this week) that, in the event a Jihad breaks out, they are to go to wherever it is happening and fight. That means to the other side of the world, if necessary. The Islamo-Fascists have declared war on this country. They have vowed to destroy all of us, not just conservatives and libertarians, by the way, but ALL of us.
Instead of going to Iraq to "kill the infidel" would you rather have the Islamo-Fascists coming here to "kill the infidel?" It seems to me that this is the perfect setup. We kill them over there instead of over here. Much less of a mess to have to clean up.
By the way, liberals are considered by Islamists to be among the biggest infidels of all.
Ever notice what they do to homosexuals? They stone them.
Don't even bother arguing w
November 18, 2006 - 19:40 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsDon't even bother arguing with someone who quotes Alfred E. Newman. Throw a comic book at him instead.
DSG
Serious biz
November 18, 2006 - 15:33 ET by acumen"what countries did these terrorists who attacked us come from?"
The US via Europe (pretty much all of the western end with a few eastern countries), via the Sudan, Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia and just about every other country in the ME.
Is there a serious point to your question? If so lets get serious. For starters, I will be dead and gone when the remaining 7/8ths of the iceberg that arose and knocked down the WT Buildings in NY emerges and devours what is left of the developed world, so the following is not to my benefit:
Number crunching 101 - The salient feature of present day Europe, Canada, Japan and Russia is that they are running out of babies. What is happening in the developed world is one of the fastest demographic evolutions in history. Greece has a fertility rate just below 1.3 births per couple (the healthiest in Mediterranean Europe), Italy at 1.2, Spain, 1.1. In short, what demographers call the point of "lowest-low" fertility from which no human society has ever recovered. Extrapolating those numbers by 2050, 60% of Italians will have no brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts nor uncles. The rest of Europe is not far behind. In 1970 the developed nations had twice as big a share of the global population as the Muslim world - 30% to 15%. By 2000, they were at parity, each having about 20%. And by 2020? Well you do the math. And best done quickly as this is happening now.
Now compare the above with the median age in the Gaza Strip of 15.8 years and you should start getting a clear image of the majority of your future planet-riders.
Simply put, a people that won't multiply, can't go forth or go anywhere. Those who do will shape the age we live in and that would be your Muslim and I really don't think it will matter which country they are from because they will be a majority in every country.
Now to some Americans, probably such as yourself, it doesn't always seem obvious that there is any connection between the "war on terror" and the so-called "pocketbook issues" of domestic politics. But there is a correlation between the structural weaknesses of the social-democratic state and the rise of a globalized Islam. The state has gradually annexed all the responsibilities of adulthood - health care, child care, care of the elderly to the point where it's effectively severed its citizens from humanity's primal insticts, not least the survival instict. Back to those "some Americans" mentioned above, they should have learned a lesson on 911 when big government flopped big-time and the only good news of the day came from the ad hoc citizen militia of Flight 93. Curiously enough, that ad hoc citizen militia didn't really care what country those that hijacked them were from but more importantly were interested in where they were taking them to.......and so should you. The fact is wherever these terrorists originated, they brought three things with them that the developed world is losing at warp speed; numbers, unity of purpose and the will to accomplish that purpose.
Now I realize it's currently in vogue to embrace multi-culturalism but tell me what good that will do you and the rest of the world by 2050 when the numbers are crunched for the last time and you find out that multi-culturalism is passe? A not to distant last time that will tolerate only one culture - that of Islam. A culture where gays are crammed back in a closet lined with razor-sharp spikes, a culture where your sister is killed by the state because she "allowed" herself to be raped while the rapist is congratulated for pointing out her "obvious" weakness and a culture where everyone will bow down and worship at the state-appointed time of course -a god to die for. And abort.....ooops, "a womans right to choose?" Now you're killing me.
Sure it's currently fashionable to not only question the motives of our government but to blame them for the mess we are in. We can make much ado about our current VP for accidently shooting a fellow hunter while not taking a second to bother with our intentional desire to shoot ourselves in the foot. After all, we ARE talking about fashion here. And in the short-term today's fashion trumps the seemingly far-away less important growing Islam and the devestating effect it will have on ALL of the world. A fashionable term to throw around these days is root-cause; "We just need to understand them." Not a bad proposal - in thirty years a vast majority of the world will, willingly or not, be Muslim. But there is a vast difference between knowing someone and capitulating to them. Yes demography is the most basic root of all. Many gave no conscious thought to Islam before 911. Now we turn on the news to find out the latest trouble spot in the world but we already know at least one party involved in the trouble: Muslims vs. Jews in "Palestine," Muslims vs. Hindus in Kashmir, Muslims vs. Christians in Africa, Muslims vs. Buddhists in Thailand, Muslimes vs. Russians in the Caucasus, Muslims vs Buddhists in Thailand, Muslims vs. backpacking torists in Bali, Muslims vs. Danish cartoonists in Scandinavia and on and on and on. Environmentalis may propose thinking globally, but act locally.......these guys live it.
When OBL made his observation about people being attracted to the strong horse rather than the weak horse, it was partly a preception issue. You can be, technically, the strong horse - plenty of jets, tanks, smart bombs, nukes and whatnot -- but, if you're seen as too feeble ever to deploy them, you'll be kitted out for the weak-horse suit. However, OBL wasn't thinking about Europe whose reabsorption within the caliphate Isalmist see as all but complete. Oh, no that's a done deal. Rather, he was considering the hyper-power. As Maulana Inyadullah was being interviewed by a "multiculturalist" media type awaiting the call to arms against the Great Satan he offered this pithy soundbite to David Blair: "The Americans love Pepsi-Cola, we love death." How appropriate - let's toast the NOW generation while we contemplate the nuances of which country the 911 terrorists came from.
Hat tip to Mr. Mark Steyn from which much of the above data and some verbage was 'borrowed' - "America Alone - The End of the World as We Know It."
Great rant, acumen! And I mea
November 18, 2006 - 18:46 ET by Indiana JoeGreat rant, acumen! And I mean "rant" as a good thing, here!
This whole thread, you and Dave R, is really great reading. You both have made the point clear and plain. No pussy-footing around, "here are the facts."
I find it interesting, if not amusing, that someone like "truconserve" (talk about your obvious "troll" SN!) can keep needling and niggling, while continuing to enjoy the wonders of cephalic rectitis (think about it....).
But then, he unwittingly finally wakes the sleeping giant, and is just completely overwhelmed by the flood of facts and logic that come raining righteously down upon his .... head.
He didn't have too much to say after all this, did he? He brought out some of the best arguments in favor of the WOT from you guys, and the logic and factuality of it probably fried his little DUmmie brain.
BRAVO!!!!
Excellent post Acumen. Brav
November 18, 2006 - 19:47 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsExcellent post Acumen. Bravo!
DSG
acumen
November 18, 2006 - 19:57 ET by misterbillFantastic post. Your eyes are open to the growing problem. I hope many, many people read your post. I have been reading about some of the items you listed above. In Italy, per a magazine article, they welcome Muslim workers because the birth rate is so low and the population is aging. They say there is no one to do the work of young people. What faster way can you think of to lose your own country and it's identity. Rome will finally fade from history.
While AHs like Gore worry about GW, you have addressed a far, far more serious threat!
A large number of the 9-11
November 18, 2006 - 20:00 ET by NL207A large number of the 9-11 attackers entered the United States from Germany. I agree! We should have declared war on Germany!
Moron. National origin means nothing. Every one of those Jihadists of 9-11 was acting as an individual and contrary to the laws and policy of his country of origin. They all would be arrested, tried and even executed in their home countries for that act. They committed an act of war outside the covenant of their homelands.
Respect.
November 18, 2006 - 13:12 ET by iveseenitallWonderful argument, Dave. I, too, have family and friends who were wounded and died in Vietnam while people like John Kerry were back here calling them "killers" and "criminals ". You are spot on as to why we went there and why we are in Iraq. Thank God for young people like you who think, research, and consider things before calling names.
NEVER,NEVER trust a liberal
Thanks, but 42 ain't as young
November 18, 2006 - 13:26 ET by Dave RThanks, but 42 ain't as young as 25.
Young
November 18, 2006 - 13:31 ET by iveseenitallDave,
42 is "young" to me. Nonethleless, thanks again for your common sense. Keep up the good fight.
NEVER, NEVER trust a liberal