An Open Debate Challenge to rhayes


The Topic:   The nature and origins of the what is now called the 'War Against terror'.

The Ground Rules:   Just you and I, hayes.  We will see how good you really are.  The rest of you stay out of this.

Duration:  As long as it takes.


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lol

Wow, how did I miss this. Here are some Randy (rhayes) goofballs. Here and here. Enjoy!

DSG

NL

NL,

If it is possible I would like to step in for hayes?

It will be nice to see anothe

It will be nice to see another liberal view to replace my mentor Hayes, who was unjustly banned, considering that there were many more than Republicans debating(?) or just insuling poor Hayes.
I thought that it would only the somewhat civil NL?

Mentor? hahaha

Your mentor?  hahaha  That's one of the funniest things you've ever said rhayes.

Seriously, do you guys talk to each other in real time?  Or do you handle your dual personality by leaving messages to each other?

MGDL

MGDL, Here is the repsonse.

Fair enough, I won’t belabor this issue of Al-Jazeera

First assumptions are fine, if you are actively following up for second and third assumptions and understandings. I believe you do, so let’s just keep active with following up.

You offered no evidence and I could pick a specific area of support, you can find it amusing, but as I said this is just a weak argument, so we can leave it at that.

"Civilian casualties happen, it is a fact of war.” I agree that this is a fact of war, and therefore war must very seriously considered as we enter into it. We didn’t in this case and we are paying the price. Not doing so is an outrage and a crime.

Moreover, I don’t make a conclusion as to the source of the deaths and I don’t minimize them. This is where I object to you, not to minimize the deaths, regardless of their source. This is especially since we took preemptive action with forethought and potential malice.

Ok, the logic doesn’t work in comparing car production with accidents because it is not in the nature of a car that there will be accidents. It is as you described earlier, “Civilian casualties happen, it is a fact of war”, in the nature of war to have civilian casualties.

I reject your premise that the idea of war is to convince your enemy. You can hit me all day long and you won’t convince me of anything. Only discussion and appealing to the rational mind can convince anyone of anything. I do understand the need for physical, as you can be attacked. However, I believe that by education and intelligence you can reduce your dangerous situations. I know you are going to think this is insane, and no I can't point to a society that this has worked. But I don't fear anyone, and I don't have to fight to advance my life, except verbally and conceptually as I have done here.

You talk about how noone is challenging China, but Singapore won independence from China, Vietnam is fighting for it’s independence and do you remember Tiananmen Square Massacre?

What do you object to about these laws?

So if you limit the choices to these 2, I would agree with your logic. However there is no reason to limit to these two options. What are these tasks that only H does? Iraqi’s built their own electric and water systems and could have rebuilt them. Here is a list of the top 500 engineering firms. So it seems like there are a good number of companies, notice KBR is 24th on the list.

I am going to have to rejec

I am going to have to reject your premise that "Only discussion and appealing to the rational mind can convince anyone of anything." Do you have children? If so how do you get them to behave? Children's minds are rarely rational...as time goes by they learn to be more and more rational as they age and gain wisdom. Sometimes for some children a swat (or threat of one) is the only thing that gets through to them(I have a child like this) . As much as I hate to use the threat of a swat, sometimes that is the only way I can get my child to comply--fortunately it doesn't happen very often. Now, I understand that other countries or terrorist groups are not children but, some countries refuse to cooperate (which is irrational) and terrorists cannot be considered or relied upon to be rational either. So where does that leave us? It leaves us with either doing nothing and letting them get away with advancing their ideologies or, we can speak the language they understand...violence. We should hope to avoid violence but, if we avoid violence at all costs thinking we can solve everything through sanctions and diplomacy we weaken our stand and send a message to our enemies that we don't have the will to lay down the law (so to speak). Prime example: Saddam violating 17 U.N. resolutions and his constant violation of the No-Fly Zones and firing upon our pilots patrolling the No-Fly Zones...the slightest violation of any of those resolutions or the No-Fly Zones was our justification for war. Sadly, it took us 12 years to finally take him to the wood shed over it. Violence was the only language Saddam understood. Violence was the only language Saddam spoke. Sometimes violence is the only remaining solution.

Perhaps you meant Taiwan rather than Singapore? Taiwan has remained independent mainly because of the U.S. support for Taiwan and the threat of U.S. (nuclear) intervention if China decided to "reclaim" the island nation...but that's Cold War stuff. Regardless, Taiwan's independence is still a U.S. concern therfore, China is held at bay. Singapore gained it's independence from Britian in 1965...I don't know how you're connecting them with any conflict with China, and what current struggles re you talking about between Vietnam and China? Since around 1999 they have had relative peace. My point is that China has never been so concerned about humanitarian rights or playing by the rules of the Geneva Conventions. As for Tianamen Square, that was a great student demonstration for freedom, but sadly it was brutally crushed by the government over the couple of months it lasted. And that is my point. You mess with China and they will crush you.

I object to the MFCFRB because it is in violation of the 1st Amendment to the Constituion of the United States of America. It stifles political speech. McCain and Feingold sponsored it to protect themselves and other political buddies from political mudslinging. Ever hear of the Keating Five? Probably one tiny reason McCain wanted this legislation.

I object to seatbelt and helmet laws because I don't need the government to protect me from myself. Is it good sense to wear a seatbelt or a helmet? Yes it s, and that's why I do (and always have even before it was mandatory). These types of laws allow the government to grab more and more control over our lives one "tiny" law at a time.

I object to mandatory insurance laws. These laws allowed insurance companies to charge even higher premiums because everyone that wishes to drive within the law became a "captive audience." Again, is it good sense to have insurance? Yes. "Uninsured motorist" coverage was already there to protect ourselves from those that don't have insurance. Those motorists that choose to drive without insurance are still in the same predicament as before the mandate to have insurance...they are still uninsured and still can't pay damages/expenses/medical bills. We don't need the government to mandate whether we purchase insurance or not...like anything else the government has it's hands in, it makes goods and services more expensive. Has the mandate for having auto insurance made our country a better place? I suspect that the insurance companies lobbied for mandatory insurance knowing they would generate more revenue as most people strive to be obedient to our laws. The idiots that chose not to insure themselves before are likely to be the same people that are uninsured today.

I oppose speed limits (namely on highways and interstates) outside of commercial and residential areas. High speed limits in Europe work. I also believe there are far more important and productive things our law enforcement officers could be doing rather than sitting on the side of the road waiting for people to break the speed limit. I don't enjoy paying taxes and seeing cops sitting around. Our law enforcement officers could help bring crime down by patrolling troubled neighborhoods and commercial areas. Their presence in certain areas could be an effective deterrent to many crimes.

I oppose restrictions on firearms. I should be able to own whatever type and however many weapons I can pay for. I shouldn't have to wait for any amount of time before I can take possession of a gun. It is none of the government's business what guns I own. All adult (non-felons) should be able to carry a gun if they choose without having to be licensed by the government. Every citizen should be able to defend their person, family, possessions, and home and not have to rely on ineffecient and unreliable law enforcement agencies. One of the main reasons why we have the 2nd Amendment is to ensure "We the people" are able to protect ourselves from an oppressive government. The only way we can truly keep our government accountable to "We the people" is to have an armed citizenry. Once the 2nd amendment is gone, the rest will quickly follow.

I believe it is my duty (as well as every citizen's duty) to pay taxes. I think everyone should pay the same low rate like with a flat tax or the fair tax (similar to other countries VAT). I don't think that it is right that something like 95% of the taxes are payed by 2% of the population. I don't like the idea that if I make over $350,000 a year I have to hand over more than 1/3 of my income to the government to give to people that the government/IRS decides can put it to better use than I can.

So let me ask you, do you support these laws to which I object? If so what are your reasons?

Look at my comment again about Halliburton. I said the type and scale of operations. Halliburton has much deeper pockets and expertise (how many of those fifty engineering firms specialize in putting out oil well fires?) than the majority (if not all) of those other companies for the type of contract they were awarded. Regardless of that, considering the short notice/urgency of the operations, Halliburton may have been the only company that could deploy with little or no notice. There are so many rules with government spending it makes one dizzy. Things like is it an American owned company, is the owner a woman, a vet, disabled, or a minority? Minimum and maximum costs. Paperwork...there's always paperwork. Even I don't understand it all, but I do have experience in that realm and I know that it isn't as easy as Cheney or the DoD picking up the phone and awarding Halliburton a No-Bid contract. You may be interested to read this about Halliburton and their government contracts. Have a little faith and trust in our government.

Gun Safety Tip #8: No matter how responsible he seems, never give your gun to a monkey. (www.imao.us)

Ok with your rejection, let m

Ok with your rejection, let me try to go a little further by clarifying that this is about long term change. I don’t have children, and understand the difficulty in raising them, so I am not going to say what is best or even that I have theories. I think that looking at the raising of children over time shows that education is the key to making lasting impressions and change.
Yes Saddam was bad, and yes, he did continue to do things against our wishes, but

I really challenge your assertion that refusing to cooperate with us is irrational.

Let me talk through this, rational implies some sort of judgment, and I would guess that you would put this judgment into rational is that which works towards ones own interests? So then saying that someone doesn’t cooperate with us is irrational says that our interests and their interests are the same. This is frequently not the case. So we have to look at what they are not cooperating with. In the case of Saddam you say that sometimes violence is the only remaining solution, but in fact we know that this wasn’t the case, are we in agreement on this point, I really hope so. Iraq was not an imminent threat to the US.

Technically you are wrong the violations of the UN treaties are cause for the UN to take action, and we bypassed this, because the other 4 countries with veto power didn’t agree with our assessment. So we should have checked our assumptions, instead our president pushed forward.

All of this is to say that there are reasons and “understandings” yes I want to understand the terrorists, because it is only in knowledge of the cause that we can change the symptoms. I think we have now seen the ramifications of trying a different approach. We know have to go back and start again with planning for the causes of peoples actions.

I think the issue of China is different, in that the financial value of China is what has stifled the information about dissent in China. It is their purchasing power that no one wants to challenge.

McCain-Feingold is something that shouldn’t even be needed, we should have publicly financed elections as they are public servants and applying for that job. I hope you don’t mean that a dollar is a unit of free speech?

The seatbelt law is an interesting one, which will take us all the way back to the nature of society or maybe more precisely the role of government. Let me just pose some questions, do you think we pay for results of crashes in our taxes and health care system? Do you think we should investigate restaurants for cleanliness standards?

I object to these also, we are mandating the use of a product or service but not regulating it. This creates a monopolistic situation, because it removes a feature of negotiations. I can’t say, if that is your price then I will go without.

I agree in principle with no speed limits, this will require a cultural sea change, as people tend think, I am driving here, so whatever speed I am going, I have a right to be here. Rather than staying to the right if they are not currently passing a car. However, public transportation should be far more efficient and convenient removing many cars from the roads. I agree about Police time as well, but the trade off for them again is financial, this is how they support a good portion of their budgets.

Guns, now here I disagree. I have no problem with people owning a pistol, rifle, or the like. I don’t see the necessity for automatic weapons? However for the sake of argument say all guns, why shouldn’t there be a license like driving a car? Why is that acceptable and not a gun, you have the right to the gun, but there is some steps required for displaying competence and training. Where I think the government has a reason to know what guns you have is in this. I don’t care which or how many guns you have, but most guns have a unique fingerprint, is my understanding. Those should all be recorded and the registered owner of the gun, so if there is an questionable discharge of the gun, ie murder, then we can match the bullet with our database and say Mr. Gunowner where is this gun you had registered to you? Can you explain how it was used in X. I don’t think individual guns are going to overthrow our current militia? This goes back to it can’t be about who’s is bigger, and has to be based on reason and mutual benefits.

Taxes are interesting, but can’t be taken out of the context of the rest of society. Since we don’t have equality of opportunity, ie if you take someone of the same iq, from different economic tiers and they are not likely to reach the same levels. I don’t think 95% are paid by 2% but I get the point. A flat rate is interesting, should it be on what is made or what is spent? Who uses more of the common resources? Should this be a federal or a state decision?

I submit applications for federal funds for a living, so I am aware of the process, but there are ways around the systems. I do trust, but then I have to verify. This administration has shown that they are absolutely NOT trustworthy. They have taken us into record deficits, debt, and a horrible war, and reduced our standing in the world dramatically. The harm of this administration is immense.

Your last asinine paragraph i

Your last asinine paragraph is pathetic enough for me to comment.

Bush reduced our standing in the world?  I hate to say this, but you need to stay the hell away from foreign affairs, as you clearly have the mentality of one who sees foreign affairs/policy as a competition for high school homecoming queen.  The fact of the matter is you are infinitely too late.  If you want the United States to be universally loved, IT MUST BE GONE (hat tip to Nightwish).  The United States began having enemies starting on 4 July 1776, and will not change so long as the Stars and Stripes flies.

But I like it that way.  Personally, as a huge fan of the works of Niccolo Machiavelli, I would MUCH rather the United States be FEARED around the world rather than be loved.  Besides, for having this reduced standing in the world, people STILL want to emulate the United States, not the rotting EU, and people STILL immigrate here by the thousands.  Hmm, wonder why?

And your whine about the debt is laughable.  Do you equally bitch loudly about FDR for spending $79 billion in 1943 while getting $24 billion in revenue?  And here's betting you won't be crying a single tear about the debt, so long as that debt is being spent to coddle, pamper, spoil, and babysit you on a daily basis, a la the rotting EU

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

" Personally, as a huge

" Personally, as a huge fan of the works of Niccolo Machiavelli, I would MUCH rather the United States be FEARED around the world rather than be loved"

Finally, it comes out! The philosophy of tyrants that got away with tyranny(for a while) and  our right wing controlled media

 Machiavellie comes out of the closet. !

Imagine our beloved right wing propaganda station suddenly being as honest as you and stating how important it is for the rest of the world fearing us.

Yep, Bush is doing a great job of putting fear in the banana republics that  regard him as a joke or compare him to dead tyrants that finally had their come uppance!

Unsane

I would be happy to have a discussion with you, but please try learn from MGDL.

Here are the rules:

1. You have to want to learn

2. Support what you say

3. Recognize context

4. don't over simplify

5. Have a point

A. Being disliked and feared are not the same thing. Not being liked means we are disliked not that we are feared.

B. Debt can have a purpose. If you are starting a company and need money upfront to start, if you are buying a house. Who you borrow from is also relevent, much of our debt for years was purchased by americans in the form of government bonds. This is no longer the case. FDR faced the great depression, and spending was a way of addressing that. One could argue that this precipitated one of the most prosperous periods which then more than met our debt obligation.

The rules, comrade?

The rules, comrade?.....the rules?   hahahahahahaha!

I have to want to learn??? 

I have to want to learn???  Me???  You might want to speak for yourself.

Support what you have to say???  Again, speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself.

I would leave much more detailed posts, but I have this thing that's called a job.  Actually, I have two of them; one of them involves defending your right to whine about what a horrible nation this is and how evil capitalism is.  And you NEED me to work.  After all, if I and millions of others weren't working, who would you plot to steal from?

You are failing miserably in history AGAIN, I see.  In 1943 (the year I cited) it was not the Great Depression.  It was WWII.  Crack open a history book and you will see the Keynesian economics FDR practiced may have kept the economy on life support, the the Depression did not end until the Lend-Lease Act and the subsequent participation in WWII awakened the American economy from its long slumber.  But, why let that historical gem get in the way of you saying/doing ANYTHING to show that turning over everything, to include your personal liberty and mine, to A Big Nanny in Washington solves every conceivable problem on earth?

The deficits run today, though deplorable (and for that I blame everybody), are nothing compared to the financial problems of the Nanny States you so adore.  Hell, France and Germany are obligated by treaty to not have deficits that go over 3% of GDP, yet they break that limit all the time!  By contrast, the U.S. deficit hovers around 2-2.5% of GDP, as memory serves.

Finally, in case you missed the point of my statement, stay away from foreign policy.  Why should you?  Simple:  The real world is NOT high school; it is NOT about who is liked and who is disliked.  The United States of America can only exist if it is the meanest SOB on the mountain.  (What, do you think our independence was granted by King George III out of the kindness of his heart?)  That means the United States CAN and MUST be totally FEARED.  I personally do not know and do not care about who likes the United States and who doesn't.  Unless of course you can show me where in the Constitution how many electoral votes different nations have and how many representatives they have in Congress. 

Besides, the way I see it, people immigrate here constantly still, and many more wish to; and whenever anything in the world goes wrong, the rest of the world still cries to us on speed-dial.  If THAT is losing respect in the world, well damn, I can certainly live with that.  We MUST be doing SOMETHING right (which bothers the living hell out of you, doesn't it?)! 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Un,OK, I will try, here goes.

Un,

OK, I will try, here goes.

  1. We are not going to settle the effects of FDR’s new deal/spending on the economy, reasonable people still disagree.
    1. What is in question then is why one assumes debt, ok I missed the year you were talking about for the facts on spending. The question remains of why you go into debt? In this case you are defining those reasons correct, WWII, lend/lease which provided defense equipment to allies? So were those good reasons? Just another small question, how did it awaken this economy from its long slumber?
    2. The fascinating thing about numbers is that it all depends on what is being considered when creating the number. I will grant any number you like to consider for an annual deficit, which you quote around 2-2.5% of GDP, but our actual public debt, not total debt, increased 4.8% from the year 2006 to 2007 a change from 4.80 to 5.04 Trillion. Then if you look back to Feb 2003 until march 2007 it increased 28% from 3.65 to 5.04 Trillion. Why did we add 1.39 trillion to our debt? What did we gain from this? Who do we owe this to?

OK history guy, pick a nation/country/civilization that has maintained their strength over time? Just 1, and in case you want to say us, china is more frequently being discussed as the new super power, as discussed here, here, and here

Keep crying those crocodile t

Keep crying those crocodile tears over the debt.  I don't like it because 1) the government should run as efficiently as possible and 2) I like the idea of a 15% tax cut from the money spent to finance the debt.  You wouldn't whine about the debt if it was being used to coddle, pamper, and babysit the American citizenry as is the case in the rotting EU nations.

Why did we add $1.39 trillion to our debt?  Because we, as American citizens, who love the pork our Representatives and Senators bring home and the "entitlements" provided by the government won't demand the same level of efficiency we demand of corporations, and thus, we deserve all the crap we can handle. 

Who do we owe us to?  Well, it is quite obvious you have not taken an economics course.  We owe the debt to ourselves.  Don't whine that BS line about China owning 90% of our debt either - our debt is 1/3 foreign owned, and the reason that's the case is quite simple: U.S. Treasuries are as sure a thing as there can be in the world of finance. 

As for your remark where it seems you gleefully look forward to the day when China is a superpower: why would I say the United States has been the most powerful since day one?  It has only existed since 1776, and has only been a major player on the world stage since 1900. 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

I know that you cannot wait f

I know that you cannot wait for the day for America to become a whiny, toothless, helpless nation (much like Canada is, for example) just because "oh, no nation is a superpower forever, can we just turn over EVERYTHING to China now, please???", but there are some things to bear in mind.

Change your article: China is set to become A superpower (and so is India, if it reforms itself internally, but we'll leave that for now), and certainly there are many things to indicate this is so.  Indeed, China has traditionally been a powerful nation with a large economy, except for the rough patch it hit the last 500 years or so.  However, nothing is inevitable. 

The upsides of China are a large population, abundant natural resources, and the embracing of capitalism.  Downsides: due to the "one-child" policy, China risks getting old before it can get rich, in the words of The Economist, which has implication for its society.  Also, if it cannot reform itself from within, as history decrees MUST be done as it is acquiring a middle class (and nations that acquire a large, aspirant middle class become democracies one way or another), then reform will be forced upon it from within, and that will de-rail the process of becoming a superpower for a time, or perhaps permanently, depending on how severe the disruption is. 

Yes, it is true that few civilizations last forever, and that certainly they do not remain on top forever.  But that doesn't mean I am going to sit on the ground and cry about it, and just give up (like you wish to do).  Besides, as I love the United States of America, I would much rather see it the meanest, baddest SOB on the block, envied by many and feared by all. 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

unsane

Your must hurt, the contorions that you must go through to say and think the way you do. We owe the money to ourselves, yes 1/3 of the debt is foreign owned. And therefore...

No country has been able to last, but I propose we continue this pattern and not learn to do things better, because we are such a bright group?

I can't help if you are willing to contradict yourself. You have figured out a way to lie to yourself and nothing will change that until you want to change.

Best of luck,

Please explain how I have fig

Please explain how I have figured out how I have lied to myself.  Are you angry because I am not a Socialist as you are?

Please name a nation/civilization that has succeeded by punishing and stealing from its most successful, productive citizens, AND has managed to project its political power and will across the world, by force. 

If socialism has always worked, please explain the rotting EU, and the demise of the Second World.

How does the United States"do things better"?  By cowering within its borders and reducing itself to helpless whining about the world beyond?  By not extending liberty to others?  By suborning itself to the Champs Elysees and Tiananmen Square and asking their permission to do as much as issue passports to its citizens?  By turning on its most successful, productive citizens, and viciously punishing them and looting them in order to coddle those who refuse to...well, do anything but fail and fail again and again and again? 

I think not.  For the United States to "do things better", I would recommend the privatizing of Social Security, the complete pullout of the government from health care, a "flat tax" of 15-17% across the board on everyone with no exepmtions whatsoever (instead of having the government steal from teh top 60% of wage earners in order to babysit the bottom 40%), paying down the national debt and having a balanced-budget amendment (has this Congress even proposed one???), and keeping its military well funded so that we may properly defend our interests and those of our allies.

There.  Now, that wasn't so difficult, was it?

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

unsane

I think we are going to disagree, but I will give you the floor. So think through some details, are you saying someone making 16,000 a year should pay 2400 a year in taxes?

How should this revenue from this flat tax be distributed? How much should go to the military, say? How much to things like schools, roads, and I don't know say police, fire, etc?

Yes, someone making $16,000 a

Yes, someone making $16,000 a year should be paying that much in taxes.  Fairness in taxation to me means that everywhere I look and see an American citizen, I know that they are paying 15-17% in taxes.  Can you tell me why that same individual making $16,000 a year should pay nothing...or better still, why i should subsidize him/her by paying him extra to make poor decisions and have children he otherwise cannot afford?

Why should the government steal from the top 60% of wage earners in order to babysit and subsidize the failings of the bottom 40%?  Why must we employ a massive bureaucracy to have that undertaking?  Why must I burn up a Sunday afternoon just to figure out what I owe the government in taxes (oh, and by the way, since I have mutual funds, the government punishes me for that transgression by going after my capital gains; only rich people get that, you see)? 

The late, great, Milton Friedman had it right.  You can eventually have a lot fewer poor people if the government stopped paying them to BE poor and STAY poor!

How should this revenue be distrubuted?  Well, I'd say that the current level of defense expenditure is just fine (maybe a little extra to pay for additional airlift capacity or things like that, but not much more), and I would say that local law enforcement authorities shouldn't get a dime of federal money, and nor should fire departments (75% of which are volunteer anyway - donated any money to your local or nearest VFD lately?), and nor should schools - which, by the way, need LESS money.  (If money was the be-all and end all of all education, why isn't the DC school district graduating Mozarts, Barnaards, Salks, Einsteins, and the like every single spring in massive armies?)  A crappy product deserves LESS money, not more.

Transportation likewise falls heavily in the state categories.  True, the Interstate Highway system was 90% paid for by federal money, but the far reaching majority of that money was for the purchase of rights-of-way. 

If it were me, we would begin phasing out government funded Social Security in favor of a privatized system.  Possibly, the same thing with Medicare, so that people can have more control over their lives (and not having the government do everything for them.)

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

See, we don't have to be star

See, we don't have to be start out as opposition.

I think our opposition will remain in terms of military spending as we disagree on how we assure our security. I understand the intrigue of your position, but I disagree with it.

Why should we steal from one and give to another? Well I don't believe in stealing, so I would say you don't. Second your %'s of 60 vs 40, I think is dramatically incoherent. It also dramatically simplifies the scenario, saying you are either on the top or the bottom, and there is not middle or degrees. I think this is a fundamentally flawed description.  Now here is where I am with you, the tax code shoud not be as complicated, but the reason that it is so complicated is that the "wealthy" wanted caveauts and loopholes so they could avoid paying taxes. Moreover I agree with ideas that I have heard saying that owning stocks and mutual funds and other investments should have some graded scale for capital gains which emphasize the reason and the purpose of them. As you know it is not the owning of stocks or mutual funds that you are taxed on, but rather the sale and profit from. So what does make sense if that if you buy and sell stocks (shorthand for all investments) rapidly, you will pay high capital gains taxes. If on the otherhand you hold stocks for 5 years you might pay half of the cap gains rate. If you hold them for 10 years for example that you won't pay anything on the sale.

There may be some perverse incentives in our programs like paying more to people with more children, but we also want to support the children in our community as they are the future and we would prefer their future be positive than negative.

You avoid the question about taxes by separating state and federal. Either way they are paid for by taxes, do you support these? My local FD is not volunteer, you would have to travel for miles to find a volunteer FD. While 75% may be volunteer of the number of FD’s the far greater number of Firefighters I would suppose would be paid by taxes.

Un, we have some fundamentally different views about the world, I don’t believe the government does everything nor should they. What we do have a community upon this blue globe and we have to figure out a way to live here together. If you just try to kill everyone who disagrees with you or scare them, is not the correct approach.

Such nice, bleeding heart gar

Such nice, bleeding heart garbage.  "See, we are all one on this planet, and we really aren't that different."  Well, actually, we ARE.  I have faith in individuals and private institutions, and as well view the world through the prism of my own sense of independence.  You, on the other hand, want government to control as much of life as possible, because you simply do not trust other people.

I didn't avoid anything on the taxation issue.  I could argue you obfuscated the question by sprinkling in functions you know are not the responsibility of the federal government.  We can discuss state and local taxation if you wish, but for the sake of this argument we really ought to stick with the federal government...unless of course you are a resident of the State of Texas and live in Houston, as I do. 

Again, any time the government wishes to go after people because they are "rich", it is nothing more than theft.  You have failed, miserably, to read the whole point of my 15-17% "flat tax" idea (I supported Steve Forbes for President on that idea alone): properly applied, there would be NO loopholes for ANYBODY.  If I were out and about amongst my fellow citizens, and I knew that all were paying 15-17% with no exemptions whatsoever, what bitterness could I possibly feel?  Why, none whatsoever. 

Another reason the tax code is so complicated is because of all the freebies given to the poor for making increasingly poor decisions.  I am single with no children or dependents, so the tax code sticks it to me, while rewarding those who are single with children.  This, in spite of the simple fact that one of the easiest ways to avoid poverty is to simply not have children until you are ready for the responsibility. 

But of course, since you have an overwhelming hatred and envy for anyone on earth who makes a dime more than you, you see the tax code as written for those Hyper-Evil Rich Leeches you so hate (and ONLY want to steal from, early and often).  I just see it as a complication, a needless burden on everyone.  Why no simplify the whole damn thing and set the tax rate at 15-17% with zero exemptions for anyone whatsoever? 

Finally, this happy adolescent nonsense of "We have a community upon this blue globe and we have to figure out a way to live here together": the people of Constantinople might really get a charge out of that, as might the citizens of Carthage and other cities.  History, like it or not, laughs at that sentiment.  This world is about whoever the meanest, baddest SOB is, pure and simple.  Growing up, I was quite concerned about a country called the Soviet Union and its desires to consume the world in its bankrupt philosophy.  I figured out early on that they were not to be reasoned with as you think can so easily be done all over the world.  Fortunately, those in charge knew that all too well, and as a result, the Soviet Union is no longer with is.  The enemies have changed, but the ways to take them down and defeat them have not. 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Actually, I have a copy of Th

Actually, I have a copy of The Prince on prominent display in my office, and have had a copy in such display for some time.  But I wouldn't recommend reading it to you: the lessons in that book just might give you severe headaches.

It IS important for the entire world to FEAR the United States. 

Speaking of fear, rhayes, why do you constantly whine about "Right Wing propaganda"?  I barely watch news on television anymore, because the U.S. media does such a poor job of covering anything that happens outside the country. 

As for different nations regarding Bush as a joke: I don't think the Libyans regarded him as a joke when they coughed up their WMD program in December 2003.  Nor did the Lebanese who eventually tossed the Syrians out of the country in early 2005.  I was in South Korea for a year and didn't see the North in any eager mood to head south. 

Need I go on?  I am sorry the government isn't babysitting you today as you demand...well, no, I'm not, rhayes/schmidt.

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Read your history, learn a lot!

many Jews lived under the Ottoman rule.

True.

They actually found Islam to be much more tolerant and welcoming.

Completely false. They were subject to a heavy tax, religious intolerance, slavery and murder. Read this for more accurate and concise info.

they are not the only group of people in history that has tried to take
over another's land and disliked them. The Crusades are but one example.

The Crusades were an attempt by Europeans to protect themselves from the invading muslims. Read your history.

DSG

what sources are you using, 

what sources are you using,  neotroll?? the neorevisionist history of the christians always being right?? tgdf!

PS..say hello to fates webb!, neocaucasians! This was mighty white of this site to allow him back!

What the heck do you care, ha

What the heck do you care, haysie?

You wouldn't read a link if it were posted.

And if you tried to post a link, it would be broken.  Like a four year old, you demand sources, but never ever, ever, post one.  And if you try, you eff it up.

Neo-idiot, you are, rhayes.   Ooohhh, or should I say, shmidt?

"I would also say that despair is not a method." ~Gen. John P. Abizaid, CENTCOM, in response to an idiotic, grand-standing statement by Hillary Clinton.

Arent you feeling a bit racis

"rhayes Says:
November 19, 2006 - 19:43

what sources are you using,  neotroll?? the neorevisionist history of the christians always being right?? tgdf!

PS..say hello to fates webb!, neocaucasians! This was mighty white of this site to allow him back!"

Arent you feeling a bit racist today. 

Sounds like someone needs Jesus.

DNC presidential candidate for 2008, "Brave Sir Robin"

You should read more of his p

You should read more of his posts.  He hates the Japanese, whom he loves to refer to by an unflattering term; he also thinks that people in Iraq are not ready for democracy.  He is definitely racist and extremely hateful. 

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy."  -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)

The crusades were a respons

The crusades were a response to 6-7 hundred years of islamic imperialism. Go ahead and revise that all you want it won't make it untrue.

Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realizes that it bears a very close resemblence to the first.

- Ronald Reagan

The Crusades were an attempt

The Crusades were an attempt by Europeans to protect themselves from the invading muslims. Read your history.

Really? I never heard that.

Well, bal, not a scholar on t

Well, bal, not a scholar on the subject, but yeah, I know the Muslims DID invade Europe from the east. Made quite a bit of headway, too, IIRC. AND from Morocco across the Med, I believe. Heard of the "Moors" in Spain?

But as to who was responding to whom, it's "chicken or egg" time for me. No idea which came first......

Indy

Cf. Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East." Excellent book, exhaustively researched, no bias that I picked up on. Islam definitely gave up on the promise of modernity and turned on Europe, but there's a lot more to it.

I'm not a scholar on it either, but this book made me feel like one.

"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18

Whoops, didn't realize this

Whoops, didn't realize this thread was 4 months old. My bad.

"If their sins were as scarlet, they are now white as snow" Isaiah 1:18

On Bernard Lewis

Indeed, Bernard Lewis is an outstanding writer.  I am currently reading For Prophet and Tsar (when I have spare time, a precious commodity these days) about how the Russians used Islam to co-opt Muslim subjects and aid their expansion into heavily Muslim regions such as Central Asia. 

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

NL

Why must they have a muslim feature of their definition of a terrorist?

Please also define a war?

Also an interesting note, is why is an abstract concept an emotion?

I applaud you for the proposition, I think this is key.

For cjkinsey

cjkinsey - I suggest you read plenty of Walter Lacquer (sp?) before asking about terrorism and terrorists.  Did you know that the word "terrorism" was in fact coined by the French during the French Revolution?

Perhaps you can point me to terrorist attacks in the past 100 years or so when an angry Christian walked into a crowded bazaar and blew themselves up, to kill as many Muslims as possible?  Or, a time when Christian hijackers flew airplanes into the Dome of the Rock and the Kaaba Stone? 

The sad fact is that in recent years, the majority of terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by Muslims.  I personally have nothing against them, even if I think it is 100% okay to eat pork, own a dog, drink alcoholic beverages, and allow (and encourage!) women to wear skirts that expose a little more than their Achilles' heels.  If they want to live differently than I do, that's fine.  It's the fact than there are too many of them that want to drag me into their personal Hell that I find objectionable.

Oh, and one more thing: ever heard the #1 hit song from the Arab World from back in 2001?  It's a little jam called "Akrah Israel".  That is NOT the Israeli national anthem, that I can assure you. 

Here is a definition of war a Leftist like yourself will find extremely uncomfortable, yet all too true: "War is the continuation of politics by other means."  Von Clausewitz wrote that in On War in 1832 and this holds true today as it did then or before. 

Anything else you need help understanding?

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

Yes plenty

Unsane

I am not trying to be nit picky, but I think the details are important. I don't care where the word came from, I care about our current use of and understanding of it. In particular your and the others on this site use of the term.

What makes something a terrorist act? I could easily refute your claim of the "the sad fact is... perpetrated by muslims." It could be said that preemptively striking a country that was of questionable threat to us is an extreme act of terrorism.

So they had a song, there are tons of objectionable songs, what are they doing and what are we doing?

Unsane, nifty quote but will raise far more questions, why don't you try using your own words so I see what you understand. Clearly be specific, or I will have to break down what you say, change your definitions, and take up more time.

so, cjkinsey - I'd love you to refute Unsane's claim! ACA

so, cjkinsey - I'd love you to refute Unsane's claim!  ACA

I'd like to see your numbers, your sources, your list, your ideas about how the vast majority of terrorist acts since 1980 were perptrated by non-muslims.

That I'm just waiting for with my breath held.

Come on Big Guy.  Refute.

ACA

...

Quoted from:  'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)

ACA

You can start with pure numbers, nearly 450,000 on the low end, likely 600,000 dead Iraqi civilians, more than would have died without our invasion of Iraq.

Changing international laws, to keep life saving drugs and food out of peoples hands by prices or genetic modification.

These issues which affect the continued livelihood of people is very similar to that of a terrorist bombing.

If you want to start with p

If you want to start with pure numbers, you better start with numbers that make sense. It has been almost 4 years since our current war started in Iraq, 1460 days. your "low end" number of 450,000, divided by 1460 days, means 308 Iraqis per day have died, on average since we invaded. And you claim there are that many more than would have died without the invasion? And you claim that it's more likely 600,000, which would be 410 per day, every day? for the entire 4 years? More than would have died if we hadn't invaded?

Nonsense.

Lee T.

U.S. Navy (ret.) / Hillsboro, Oregon

I have enough money to last me the rest of my life. Unless I buy something.

cj, you're clearly an anti-American leftist wacko

cj, only extreme left anti-American wackos desperately try to equate islamic extremists who deliberately target non-combat civilians (the true definition of terrorism) with the United States' military action. 

I bet you support International A.N.S.W.E.R., too.

inthomp

Stunning evidence you provide. Here is the report and the methodology.

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html

cj the A.N.S.W.E.R.-boy

Nice try, anti-American A.N.S.W.E.R.-boy, but you don't get to rewrite the definition of terrorism.   Pretty dishonest of you.  But then you're a leftist, so it figures.

RJ

How am I being dishonest. I am telling you that I am challenging the definition and why. I know you think someone is dishonest if they disagree with you, but in fact I am being perfectly honest and clear.

I challenge your frames of understanding, your assumptions, and want you to think with more inclusive concepts and then narrow things down with specific situations.

When we do that and talk about specifics, I don't think we are really all that far apart. Or at least I hope we aren't.

Geez, cj, do you ALWAYS talk in pamphlet-speak?

Geez, cj, do you ALWAYS talk in pamphlet-speak?    Try using logic and common sense instead.

You have decided to change the accepted definition of terrorism in order to make a political point.  That is dishonest.

More than any other army or country in history, the U.S. is trying to avoid civilian casualties.  Islamic terrorists are doing everything they can to inflict casualties on civilians.  Not even by the most warped, agenda-driven definition do the two come together.  

RJ

You are making up words to obfuscate, "pamphlet speak"? My comments are directly related to a comment provided on this site, and do not continue to some point I want to make, as might be conceptualized by pamphlet speak.

I do say that you are not providing evidence for your claims. We have said we are trying to limit civilian casualties, but that is contrary to our actions. We have invaded a country that was not an imminent threat to us and thereby necessarily causing civilian casualties that would not have happened without our bombing.

Save it for the silly moonbat sites you link to, cj

You're a boring debater, cj.  You have no spark.  It's all rote.  I'll be stopping soon.

"Pamphlet-speak" describes your style of speech, not your quotes.  Like many socialist-types, you speak as if you're reading from Mao's Red Book. (geez, not literally, you dope!)

As for the rest of your silly nonsense, save it for the moonbat blogs you link to on your site.

One idea that Liberals like

One idea that Liberals like you refuse to grasp is that there is a definite and huge difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage. I think one of the big points people are tyring to get through to you is that the terrorists are causing the lion's share of civilian casualties through their operations.

One of the nefarious things that people like Saddam, Hitler and others do/did is to co-mingle military/strategic facilities in and around civilian population centers. This serves two purposes, 1.) it helps them protect those facilities from attack because of the risk of collateral damage and 2.) the ensuing bad PR the attacker might face from carrying out a strike on said places also helps to avert attack.

I used to be stationed in Germany. Not far from my base was an old hideout that Hitler and his cronies used in the Eiffel Region. They marked the roof with the "protected" symbol of the medic's cross. Had the Allies found out that Hitler was misusing the symbol to protect a hideout, we would have been justified in carrying out attacks against it, regardless of who was in or around it. Luckily for the village it is in, it wasn't until after the war that the Allies discovered it was a hideout and NOT a hospital.

The U.S. and other Geneva Conventions countries spend billions of dollars to develop weapons that minimize collateral damage which in turn keeps civilain casualties (as a result of our actions) to a minimum. Terrorists spend their time and money developing weapons/strategies that maximize civilian casualties and collateral damage.

The big problem with all of this is that the bleeding hearts believe that war should have rules. IMO, war should be a no-holds barred conflict with unconditional surrender ending the hostilities. Cease-fires and the like do not bring lasting peace. If you were a country/terrorist group and knew you would be crushed with overwhelming force, you would probably think long and hard before you decided to mess with other countries or groups.

Why don't you take a trip to Iraq and ask 1,000 people on the street what they think of all of this? What really matters is what do they think? Do they feel liberated? Do they feel their quality of life is better or holds more promise than before Saddam was deposed? If they are happy about how their lives are going and thankful that the U.S. took action, would you still think we are in the wrong?

BTW, you should get better at answering the questions posed to you with statements instead of turning around and asking yet more questions. That is a typical practice used to avoid defending your claims.

Gun Safety Tip #8: No matter how responsible he seems, never give your gun to a monkey. (www.imao.us)

MGDL

I don't conflate collateral damage and targeting civilians, infact I think it is you who conflates the two. For example when we bomb an entirely civilian location, as frequently happens in war, it is always declared collateral damage (CD) and an error. 1. You have to be skeptical of such mistakes when they are frequently include targets that seem extremely odd to have been hit. Such as Al-Jazeera's building. 2. You must consider if why you are there in the first place when considering why there bombs dropping that can cause CD.

I am interested in this idea as well that there should be no rules. Why then do you object to blurring of the lines between collateral damage and targeting civilians? What difference does it make there are no rules and we should be able to do anything we can think of?

Do you think we are country of laws?

You think overwhelming force provides lasting peace? I disagree. You may quell someone for a period of time, but they will continue to look for ways to subvert you, unless you predicate your actions on mutually beneficial proposals. That is how you develop lasting piece. You can't kill everyone, and if you try to you are a mass murderer.

I would not think it was wrong if all 1000 people wanted help, or even the majority, plus the majority of the people here, and the majority of the people in the surronding areas. You will likely say that I am trying to appease everyone by including so many people, but rather I think this is the advanced planning and thinking that was so desparately lacking in the run up to Iraq. Now we have created a regional conflict that is likely to lead to much more devision than another plan. It was forseeable to be caught in this mess, in fact Dick Cheney saw it a decade ago, but now decided that enough benefit would come to his group to make it worth while to sacrifice the lives and money of other americans.

I will answer questions, diversions that say I support any given frame or concept are not questions, they are attempts to put assumptions on to me. It does require more work to understand, but I am not running from any question. I am encouraged by your post.

kinsey...You wrote: "You

kinsey...

You wrote: "You think overwhelming force provides lasting peace? I disagree".

It worked in Germany, Japan and many others throughout history, so why does overwhelming force NOT work now? Because you say so.

Thank you for telling me what to think.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

CT

The reason I don't think overwhelming force fully describes the scenario in Germany and Japan is because we had to implement the Marshal Plan. We had to pay to develop their countries and industries with German and Japanese workers. We created jobs that they controlled, developed and managed. The prosperity that grew from them, gave them independence and self esteem that re developed their identity. Almost 5 years into this invasion, we are still just trying to get back to pre-invasion levels of electricity and clear water in Iraq.

If we had continued to say that Germany and Japan owed us from the war, like we did in WW!, we would not have had the countries we have today. The problem in this case is that we have been so desimated by republican economic policy that I am not sure we can afford to pay our way out of the mess that GW has fallen into in Iraq.

kinsey...This statement made

kinsey...

This statement made by you "we have been so desimated by republican economic policy" is the most idiotic I have heard in quite some time. Because you are being dishonest or you are just brain washed, this will be my last conversation with you.

BTW... I'm 50 years old and this is the best overall economy I can ever remember. In fact, this economy has done absolute wonders for me and my family and I would like to thank the republican economic policy.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

CT

Wow, I have been so brainwashed because I disagree with you? Regardless of what I can point to as measures or why I say that. It is a free country and you can choose whatever sentence you want to justify your own desires, but I thought as a clear thinker you might be able to consider an argument, as it is.

I might suggest that just your own measures might not be the best markers of the ability of our countries financials.

Of course not, cjkinsey!  Yo

Of course not, cjkinsey!  You passionately hate the United States of America because:

1) We have a military, and that military is the most powerful ever.

2) This military can project power all over the world.

3) Our citizens are free to make whatever life they want for themselves.

4) The government is not in the business of stealing from its most productive citizens in order to reward/coddle/babysit/pamper its least productive.

"HAV3 TH3 BRIDG3S OF INSANITY B33N CROSS3D AND FOR3V3R R3TRACT3D???."  - Meshuggah, "3ntrapm3nt", from Catch Thirty Thr33 (2005)

kinsey...This statement made

ooops, dbl post.

And while I'm at it...what th

And while I'm at it...what the hell is this supposed to mean "Dick Cheney saw it a decade ago, but now decided that enough benefit would come to his group to make it worth while to sacrifice the lives and money of other americans."

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

I don't find it odd at all

I don't find it odd at all that some civilian centers were bombed
for the reasons I stated above about evil men co-mingling their war
materiels and personnel in civilian areas. I also don't see anything
wrong with Al-Jazeera's assets being targeted (if they were...I never
read anything on it; I'm not saying it didn't happen just because I
never heard of it)...The first targets in a war are: radar, air
defense, communications, and intelligence. Al-Jazeera may be a private
company, but even you would be hard pressed to prove they don't
receive funding from terrorist groups/terrorist friendly governments in
addition to being the un-official terrorist propaganda network. Taking
out their ability to broadcast makes sense to me. The majority of
civilian casualties in this war are from the terrorists. And blaming
those casualties on the U.S. because we started the war is exactly like
saying that all car accidents are caused by GM, Ford, Chrysler, et. al.
because they made the cars.

That's right, I do believe there should be no rules in
war...However, because our lawmakers decided it was a good idea to sign
on to and remain a member to the Geneva Conventions I believe we have
an obligation to follow the provisions as outlined...I do believe in
the rule of law, but I also believe that we have allowed some pretty
stupid laws to be enacted which we should either overturn or amend. I
think we should withdraw from the Geneva Conventions as well as the
U.N....it would be interesting to see how quickly Iran and other
countries stop rattling their sabres and keep to themselves. As CT
pointed out, overwhelming force did work in Germany, and Japan as well
as other areas and past wars...through the benevolence of the U.S. and
our allies under the Marshall Plan after WWII, we helped rebuild Europe
and Japan to get back on their feet, and yes, that brought a measure of
goodwill but, that same goodwill wouldn't have gotten us anywhere
without the violence of 4-5 years of constant battles, several
thousands of tons of firebombs, 62,000,000 dead and wounded (total of
all sides), and two atomic bombs that brought both Germany and Japan to
their knees begging for peace. The unfortunate truth is that history
has shown tha