PBS Ombudsman Calls a Foul on Blatant Editorial For Kerry '04 In 'History Detectives'

Photo of Tim Graham.

On his page on the PBS website, PBS Ombudsman Michael Getler agreed with e-mailers on an episode of gratuitious liberal bias – a seemingly out-of-nowhere attack on the 2004 ad campaign against John Kerry by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth – on the show "History Detectives." In a brief commentary, Wes Cowan denounced how the group known as "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and funded by a wealthy Republican campaign donor smeared Kerry's military record and possibly cost him the election." When Getler asked the executive producer Christopher Bryson about the claim, he shot back: "In stating that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ‘smeared Kerry's military record’ we carefully and believe accurately summarized and characterized a great deal of objective reporting by established media organizations, respected media watchdog groups, and an official Pentagon investigation."

Those "objective" reporters included The Washington Post, and the Annenberg Center’s Factcheck.org, which also relied on the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, and a Kerry pal’s commentary in the Wall Street Journal. But the "objective" label gets more hilarious when Bryson also cited John Kerry’s incredibly sympathetic liberal biographer and pop-historian Doug Brinkley, and the left-wing Center for Media and Democracy’s online Sourcewatch encylopedia. CMD puts out paperback books with obviously left-wing and partisan titles such as Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush’s War on Iraq and Banana Republicans: How the Right Wing Is Turning America Into a One-Party State.

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Public broadcasting doesn’t do very well in being responsive to public complaints, especially about a liberal bias. (By contrast, a liberal campaign recently forced PBS omnipresence Ken Burns to add an entire Hispanic-heroes segment to his forthcoming documentary on World War II.) Getler has been the PBS ombudsman since 2005, after PBS was outraged that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting named two ombudsmen, the usual media establishmentarian (former NBC political reporter and PBS host Ken Bode, who still blogs occasionally) and conservative journalist Bill Schulz (mostly with Reader's Digest), who was completely unacceptable to the liberal system. He departed after a few blogs.

Getler also has the media establishment credentials from The International Herald Tribune and The Washington Post (he was also an ombudsman there). He began his analysis this way:

"We interrupt this program to bring you . . . a political message." That line wasn't actually broadcast on PBS this week, but that's what several viewers thought happened while they were watching the July 9 airing of the "History Detectives" series. And they have a point.

I've said several times in these columns over the past 18 months or so that there is always something new to discover about how things happen on public television. Today's lesson is how to shoot yourself in the foot — at least in the minds of a fair number of viewers — by injecting something debatable, political and seemingly irrelevant into a program that people seem to enjoy because it is different, imaginative and not political.

"History Detectives" is a co-production of Lion Television and Oregon Public Broadcasting. It is now in its fifth season on PBS, with about a dozen programs a year, each with three different segments. The program appears to be very popular, with about four million weekly viewers, according to PBS. It devotes itself "to exploring the complexities of historical mysteries, searching out the facts, myths and conundrums that connect local folklore, family legends and interesting objects." About 75 percent of the stories investigated are contributed by viewers, and a four-person team experienced in historical investigations tracks down the clues and facts. In my view, the concept for the program is among the most creative and imaginative on public television.

I recall only a few occasions during my time here when I would get a critical e-mail or two from a viewer taking issue with the way something was presented. But a portion of the July 9 show produced a heavy flow of critical mail. The opening segment of the program, by "detective" Elyse Luray, focused on a vintage, post-Civil War photograph showing about 20 older white soldiers in uniform standing shoulder-to-shoulder with two uniformed black soldiers. As the program pointed out, in Reconstruction-era America, such associations were frequently taboo. So what brought them together for this picture? Detective Luray went to work. The bond, it turned out, was the Grand Army of the Republic, a fraternal order organized for war veterans. So far, so good.

But then immediately following this, another member of the "History Detectives" quartet, Wes Cowan, an anthropologist and owner of an auction company that specializes in historical Americana, delivered a brief commentary that started off talking about the historical battle for veterans' benefits. But he ended up talking about Sen. John F. Kerry's role in 1971, when, as a young Naval officer, he was a leader of those veterans who turned against the Vietnam War, and how, in 2004, a group known as the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and funded by a wealthy Republican campaign donor smeared Kerry's military record and possibly cost him the election."

Getler included a pile of letters from disappointed viewers. While declaring his sympathy for the Kerry position, he found the commentary out of place:

When I say, as I did at the top of this column, that these viewers have a point, I mean that, in my view, this comment of Cowan's, and the way it was presented, seemed to me to come out of nowhere, be irrelevant to the segment viewers had just watched, and jumped out as sort of a gratuitous political shot that seemed to distract from what is almost always an entertaining program removed from this kind of thing.

Also, the Swift Boat assault on Kerry in the '04 presidential campaign was a long-running and very controversial battle, not given to one-liners. And, as some viewers put it, there are lots of reasons why Kerry lost. There are undoubtedly large numbers of people who would agree with the characterization of the Swift Boat campaign as a smear on Kerry — who was awarded three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and Silver Star while serving in Vietnam — while many others see it differently....

Having followed this over the years, I felt, personally, that the evidence supported Kerry's record, citations and performance in battle. But the issue here for me is the appropriateness, or rather the lack of it, of Cowan's commentary.

—Tim Graham is Director of Media Analysis at the Media Research Center


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I think it's great that peo

I think it's great that people e-mailed and complained. Conservatives don't do it often enough. Liberals have all of these orchestrated e-mail campaigns and they get things done like removing debate commentators.

PBS needs to not-exist. As

PBS needs to not-exist. As for those who've claimed before that the FCC's not actually planning to regulate cable or satellite, well...
JMR

History Detectives Politics

This isn't the first time History Detectives has gone to political comments completely unrelated to the history story.  Last year in a story about German prisoners held in the U.S. during the second world war a comment was made that "a lot of prople think that the holding of foreign prisoners by the U.S. at Getmo is a violation of the Geneva Convention". It just came out at the end of the story which was nothing about the violation of the GC by the U.S. in WWII.

FaulknerI have watched a few

Faulkner

I have watched a few episodes of "History's Detectives".  I have tried to ignore the blatant liberal bias of the show. I now call the show "History's liberal/leftie detectives." Each show has at least 1 segment in the leftie slant. Usually about evil white people and slavery or evil white people and Indians etc. There even was a segment about the evil oil companies through their evil minions in the form of bus companies putting cable car operators out of business in the 50's. There is usually  a liberal (not often related) revisionist monologue at the end of each show.  The premise of the show was initially good but is being used to further a leftie doctrine. Just look at the so-called "detectives" in the show ( a black man with a muslim name, an airhead hottie, an older woman-the architectural historian-and a token white male of indeterminate but sometimes leftie persuasion) all spout knee-jerk leftie platitudes in the show sooner or later. If you looked in the dictionary under liberal you would see a group photo.  

How is it that when a group o

How is it that when a group of 200+ of Kerry's comrades express an opinion that he is not up to the job of president of the USA is now "SMEARING?"

Interesting, I've always f

Interesting, I've always found it interesting how people can attack a man for volunteering to go out and get shot at while praising one who hid out in the Air national guard. If you don't think it was hiding, ask yourself why the same unit included the son of the govenor and nine Dallas Cowboys.

History Detectives was really not the proper venue for bringing this up though.

And as far as liberal bias, trained, educated and accredited historians (myself inculded) tend liberal simply because we have a better handle on the failures of political and social consrvatism over the last 2500 years of electoral politics.

"Interesting, I've alw

"Interesting, I've always found it interesting how people can attack a
man for volunteering to go out and get shot at while praising one who
hid out in the Air national guard"

So everyone who joins the National Guard is "hiding out"? Make sure you post that on your door in great big letters, next time a tornado comes through your town.

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

I'm obviously ONLY referrin

I'm obviously ONLY referring to those who obviously have joined only to avoid active combat. A sad, sad attempt to put words into my mouth I niether spoke, or wrote. How about actually responding to the subject at hand?

MightyMouth

I am sure he is referring to Bill Clinton's glorious service in the military. Wait...maybe he is referring to the Barney Fife of Viet Nam, John Kerry...injured himself and collected his discharge.

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.
Thompson/Rice

People on both sides of the

People on both sides of the political spectrum did things to avoid going to Vietnam. Is it possible for conservatives to avoid the mindlessness of the "Blame Clinton" rhetorical strategy?

blame Clinton

Who is blaming Clinton for what? I do not understand the point of your post.

Ok SPQR, I'll give it a sh

Ok SPQR, I'll give it a shot.

Our disdain for him is not because he volunteered to "get shot".

We dislike him because he came home and trashed our troops and said they were reminiscent of Ghengis Kahn.

We dislike him because he then proceeded to meet with our enemy overseas while the war was still being prosecuted.

We dislike him because N. Vietnamese generals credit him and his fellow protestors with helping them "win" then war.

We dislike him because his picture is prominently displayed among the war heroes in N. Vietnam's war museum.

We dislike him because he chose to throw his medals over the White House fence in protest of our country and military... wait... threw someone else's medals... uhhh.. threw his RIBBONS... that's right... his ribbons.

But if it makes you feel better to consider our disdain is caused by his service to our country, then by all means do so. Whatever fits your template.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Nice try, and how did you d

Nice try, and how did you devine that they joined to avoid active combat? Ask any Guardsmen that join today if they are joining to "avoid combat".

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

The two situatuions are not

The two situatuions are not comparable. With a draft there was mimimal operational need to draw from either the Reserves or Guard, something LBJ refused to do even with his aborted post-Tet 105,000 man level raise in mid-1968. That's how people knew at the time that getting into the guard was a way to avoid the draft and that it severly reduced one's chances of seeing combat. Since there is no draft today, the two situations are not analagous. The Guard and Reserves are sent all the time. I live right across from a Reserve base and I've seen them come and go to Iraq several times now. Once again, you are trying to ascribe an anit-military attitude that does not exist here. I would suggest stopping believing the myth that Liberals are anti-military.

my apologies

"I would suggest stopping believing the myth that Liberals are anti-military."

I humbly apologize...it is the conservatives that refer Iraq as a quagmire...soldiers as baby-killers and baby-burners...</sarc

1. Putting words into my m

1. Putting words into my mouth again...

2. As counterinsutgentcy is a political act (the CIA and Ed Landsdale figured out in the 1950's) and Bush's response is primarily military, it's the strategy from the top that is failing (quagmire) not the grunts on the gound faithfully following orders, bless 'm for doing so!

Was not counterinsurgency a p

Was not counterinsurgency a part of our mission in the RVN? And dont tell me it was a CIA operation then. It was one of the primiary missions of MACV.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

I would ask our friend SPQR w

I would ask our friend SPQR what non-military political function was used to save El Salvador from the FMLN, then rescue Nicaragua from the Sandy's?

What political function destroyed the Malaysian insurgency?

What political function removed the communist guerillas from the hill country of the center of the Korean Peninsula?

Oooh, lets add some more pain

Oooh, lets add some more pain to our friend SPQR...

1.)  What political act finally destroyed the pro-western insurgency in South Vietnam following the take over by the NVA in 1975?

2.)  What political act finally eliminated the Burgeoning Czech's freedom movement in 1968?

3.) What political act was used at Tiannaman Square?

SPQR, you assertion that libe

SPQR, you assertion that liberals are not anti-military is absurd. I know a few and all of them are anti-military, and have been from an early age. The very idea that you could join the guard to avoid duty in vietnam is also wrong. I served in vietnam and knew many that were guard or reserve. I know that there were more air force reserves than army. Many flew air support missions for us. Your way off base here. And I know more than a few former guard and reservists that would take exception to what your posting here.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Run, SPQR! Run! Run from the

Run, SPQR! Run! Run from the truth long enough, and you begin to belive the lies, and become on of the dupes.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

But, the liberals ARE anti-mi

But, the liberals ARE anti-military.  It used to be that liberals were PROUDLY anti-military. 

Now they simply seek to hide it ...

It's that new stealth techn

It's that new stealth technology. Stealth military loathing. Those dastardly liberals... I mean "progressives"... have gone high tech.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Or one that left the country

Or one that left the country and went to, say, Europe? Wonder who that could have been? Must have been someone that perhaps "...loath the military"?

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Kerry joined the Navy thinking he'd be safer

Seems to me Kerry enlisted in the Navy because even if he was sent to SE Asia, odds were he'd stay on a nice, safe ship.  After all, Vietnam was primarily a land and air war.  It just didn't work out that way for him.  He found himself on a Swift Boat.  Fortunately for him, he managed to escape that assignment, eh, swiftly.

Meanwhile Bush trained as a fighter pilot, a job that might have landed him in combat.

And as far as the track record of conservatism, if you can't see the huge, repeated failures of liberal policies here and around the world, you don't have your eyes open.

When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.

The Delta was dangerous. A

The Delta was dangerous. A good friend of mine was in the Delta in a PBR. His second day on R and R his boat was lost. They didn't find anything bigger than a phone book left. And, check out Kerry's own 8mm combat footage. Didn't look like a picnic to me.  I would suggest reading up more on the Hell that went on in the Mekong.

Kerry the sailor man

Of course the Delta was dangerous.  I just think Kerry was angling to serve on a ship at sea, a gamble that didn't work out.  He might just as well have gambled on the draft lottery.

One of the points made by the Swift Boaters was that Kerry's footage was frequently staged.  Those witnesses were attacked, but never convincingly rebutted.

When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.

Familiar with the Delta regio

Familiar with the Delta regions. Also aware of the Kerry "combat footage". It was an "reenactment" taken the next day at Kerrys orders. No green tracers in that footage. Not a one in any of them. Besides, if Kerry was busy shooting film during a fire fight, that would make him derelict in his duty. Are you suggesting that Kerry was derelict in his duties?

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Kerry's footage was &quot;Her

Kerry's footage was "Heroic" staged imagery designed for his "Second coming of JFK" political campaign that he had planned.

SPQR here probably thinks Gomer Pyle was a real Marine

BD,

If SPQR here thinks John (I got a purple heart when all I really needed was a band-aid) Kerry was a "war hero," he probably thinks Gomer Pyle was a real Marine, too.

I had a neighbor once who had been a chopper pilot flying medevac missions in Vietnam. He did three full tours over there and was shot down multiple times. He was also wounded on more than one occasion. He refused any purple hearts as he felt that his wounds weren't of a serious enough nature to warrant them.

He wanted to go back again, but they wouldn't allow it. He told me that was one of the few times as an adult that he actually broke down and cried.

John Kerry spent four lousy months in Vietnam. War hero my ass.

Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.

SPQR, you are a complete fraud.

SPQR, you are a complete fraud.

"The Delta was dangerous. A good friend of mine was in the Delta in a PBR. His second day on R and R his boat was lost. They didn't find anything bigger than a phone book left. And, check out Kerry's own 8mm combat footage. Didn't look like a picnic to me.  I would suggest reading up more on the Hell that went on in the Mekong."

Oh really?  A really really good friend?

Crap.

"The two situatuions are not comparable. With a draft
there was mimimal operational need to draw from either
the Reserves or Guard, something LBJ refused to do even
with his aborted post-Tet 105,000 man level raise in mid-1968."

More crap.

In 1967, 1968 and 1969 units of the Guard were activated for both combat support roles (that would be stateside duty to release active duty soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen) to go to SE Asia.  In Johnson's (D-Texas) War over 50,000 US men and women died in Vietnam.  Or is that irrelevant to this discussion?

Many NG guys went through basic, AIT and shipped with my generation of combat soldiers who ended up in SE Asia looking at the other end of the enemies' guns.  To disparage even the stateside duty of any Guardsman is shallow, cheap, anti-military in itself and obviously done from a person who has never (not once) in his life served in uniform.

I'm calling you out.  You are not a veteran and your grasp of history is beyond stupid.  It is nearly criminal to continue to listen to the insanity of your tripe.

I was with a unit that by its very nature did not have any Guardsmen serving in it; but I can assure you that I met many solid groundpounding grunts in Nam who were in the Guard and had been activated by your rude, bucolic and ignorant President, Lyndon Baynes Johnson (D-Texas).

Kerry's 8 mm films, huh?  Geez, everyone had those over there and were bent on turning their service into an agenda for future political gain and action.

My personal opinion is that Kerry was a KGB sleeper who knew exactly how to do what he did, how to manipulate POW families the way he did, how to travel to meet with the enemy as he did, and what the impact on moral at home would be.  //sarc off//

Let me explain something to you my Philsbury Dough Boy, you don't have the slightest clue about which you speak.

(DRAWL):  Waall, I've got a good friend....

Crap

ACA

...

Quoted from:  'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)

PSas far as combat. As tri

PS

as far as combat. As trianed to fly the F-102, Bush's only job was to intercept Soviet Bear-Foxtrots. With such stubby wings and HUGE engines, both the 102 and 104's were designed to do little else. Even more unlikley by 1970 as both sides as transferred the bulk of their nuclear forces to ICBMs.

Sure.Go on and tell us how

Sure.

Go on and tell us how the USSR had no Nuke-Delivering Bombers when Bush in the ANG.

BTW - How did that memo thingie work out for you and your Lib buddies?

So, somehow serving in a Air

So, somehow serving in a Air defense mission flying over Northern Canada, or sitting in a missile silo in the Dakota's was not worthy service from your perspective?

No no no BD. The level of se

No no no BD. The level of service isn't different between the two.

The difference comes when you don't actually serve.

That is NOT what SPQR said.

That is NOT what SPQR said.

I know I was correcting him.

I know I was correcting him.

What he should have said was something like, "Bush's 'service' specifically is not equitable to that of a person that actually serves guarding a missle silo."

I was simply clarifying.

Since Bush gathered enough po

Since Bush gathered enough points to qualify for what the reserve calls "Good Years" (50 Points each) for each year that he served, this is a moot point.

Ok. I see what's going o

Ok.

I see what's going on.

We'll all agree to defend Bush's 'service' to the death despite the glaring inconsistencies in his record, while viciously attacking John Kerry who actually served in a war for his country and risked his life to save fellow Americans.

I thought so.

Plain &amp; Simple

Plain & Simple

It is indeed.

It is indeed.

If you look at his service re

If you look at his service records, you will note that President Bush gathered enough points for each year at his Retirement Year Ending Date (RYE Date) to gain a good year.

There is NO requirement beyond that to gain appropriate status. 

Perhaps if his unit was mobilized for deployment and he did not move with it, then you might have an argument for "Missing Movement" but since it never occurred.....

Meanwhile Bush trained as a

Meanwhile Bush trained as a fighter pilot, a job that might have landed him in combat.

Or which could have gotten him killed without even going anywhere near a combat zone. F-102's weren't exactly the safest things to be flying around in.

Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.

SPQR, Oddly enough, trained

SPQR,

Oddly enough, trained, educated and accredited physicists (myself included) tend conservative simply because we have a better handle on the fact that liberalism is in direct contradiction to the physical laws of the universe, and has been since the dawn of time.

Physics? How about religio

Physics? How about religious conservatives who don't believe in radiological dating systems and insist that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

What about us? Radiological d

What about us? Radiological dating couldn't possibly be erroneous...? Science has never been wrong before, I guess:(...

Yeah, well at least you have

Yeah, well at least you have a chance to prove science wrong.

You still believe in proof -

You still believe in proof - after all my posts?!! Is there anything I can possibly do about this?

Faith is easy when things make sense. Real faith is believing in the ridiculous.

Welcome to my religion ,bro - the Earth was created in six days, we walk on water, raise people from the dead, rain fish from the sky, it's all good - never a dull moment:)!

Faith IS easy. That's the po

Faith IS easy. That's the point.

That's an incredibly short-sighted and lazy viewpoint you have.

If your best argument is to try to convince me that 2 + 2 does not necessarily equal 4, then there is NOTHING you can do about this.

Return to fantasy land. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

How is it short sighted and l

How is it short sighted and lazy exactly? Indulge me...

Also feel free to expand on the 2+2 thing...

Gay haters unite!

1) It's short sighted b/c if

1) It's short sighted b/c if you never question anything, you never have any progress.

2) I've already expanded on the 2 + 2 thing. If my girlfriend and I invite another couple to dinner, then there are four of us. aka 2 + 2 = 4. Still don't get this example at all.

3) Feel free to expand on my accusation that you support the disruption of soldier's funerals.

Thanks for responding, Leon:)

Do you know how many questions I had to ask to get where I am now? I'm asking a question even now...

You are wed to this idea of proof just because you see something with your eyes, my friend. Please explore that further. It is for your benefit not mine...

I post the link to enlighten people about this particular religious hatred by my fellow Christians - so that it can be confronted - pretty bold of me isn't it? Any other questions?

Gay haters unite!

It MIGHT be considered bold i

It MIGHT be considered bold if you didn't ACTUALLY hate gays.

What is the opposite of love,

What is the opposite of love, Leon? Do you love gays?

Do you have kids? Do you love them? Would you let them do whatever they felt like doing?

Do you know any adults who like to have sex with kids - they might feel like they were born that way? Do you support their desires? 

What is the opposite of love, Leon?

Gay haters unite!

Truth, What is this nonsen

Truth,

What is this nonsense? What is love? What does this have to do with anything?

Are you joking around? I don't understand what your point is at all. In fact, I could barely make my way through the post.

1) There is no opposite of love. Love is subjective and undefinable. Specific to the individual.

2) I do have love for the gays I know. I mean, they are my friends and family. Why would I not love them?

3) I have no kids

4) I would think if I did I would love them

5) Of course I wouldn't let them do whatever they felt like doing. But I don't see how this relates to being gay at all.

6) I have actually met an adult that liked to have sex with kids. He was the youth pastor at my church and the best excuse I ever had to stop going to youth group. He was a true monster.

7) I'm not sure if he was born that way, but I do believe there's something wrong somehwere in his brain, physically. However, I have no idea if they're born that way. It could be something like a diminished prefrontal cortex. I have no clue, but there's more going on with these creeps than a simple question of desire and choice.

8) I do not support their desires. What a silly question. I support chemical castration for all pedeophiles. Please. What a stupid question.

9) Again, there is no opposite of love.

10) So what's the wrap-up? What was the conclusion we reached through that line of questioning? What have we learned? What have you shown through the questions you've asked?

I don't know. This post is a non sequiter.

Leon why do you &quot;love&qu

Leon why do you "love" gays and yet hate peds - even though there is apparently no opposite between those two feelings...?

Notice that's another question:)...

Gay haters unite!

TM, You're just ignorant t

TM,

You're just ignorant to reality. That's fine.

Loving a child is wrong. Loving an adult is ok. And how does your previous post, my response to that post, and this post follow any sort of logical path to conclusion? How did what I said in my previous post lead you to say there is apparently no opposite between the feeling of loving an adult of the same sex and loving a child?

I've answered all of your questions. Won't you answer mine?

Leon I'd love to answer your

Leon I'd love to answer your questions! Thanks for taking the time...

1. how does your previous post, my response to that post, and this post follow any sort of logical path to conclusion?

Um, what?

2. How did what I said in my previous post lead you to say there is apparently no opposite between the feeling of loving an adult of the same sex and loving a child?

You said there was no opposite to love. You love gays. Is your feeling the same for peds? If not is it different? Is it the opposite? Or slightly different? Is hate the opposite of love?

Gay haters unite!

TruthMonger, I posted somet

TruthMonger,

I posted something in the Forum section of this site a few weeks back that deals with ideas of proof and truth. Yes, this is a shameless plug, but I'd be interested in your opinion on it.

That's a long read hydro! Hel

That's a long read hydro! Help me out - do you believe in proof?

Gay haters unite!

TruthMonger, Yea, I forgot

TruthMonger,

Yea, I forgot to warn you.

Proof - yes in math, no otherwise (including science).

Of course, it takes me like eight pages to elaborate on that in the forum thingy.

so what is the difference bet

so what is the difference between proof and faith then? and can you prove that 2+2=4?

Gay haters unite!

Well it was Russell and White

Well it was Russell and Whitehead that proved 2+2=4. But I am a modern who believes 2+2=5 for large values of 2. :-)

mandrake, I remember hearin

mandrake,

I remember hearing back in high school that the proof for "1+1=2" is like a hundred pages long. I've never looked into it (and if I did, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to follow it anyways).

I'm guessing how you go about proving something like that depends on the system you are starting with. I'd imagine in some systems, it's trivially derived from the axioms, but in other systems, it's more difficult.

And now I'm reminded why I didn't become a mathematician. Number theory is for nerds.

hydro,much easier to make 1+1

hydro,

much easier to make 1+1=2 an assumed and prove other axioms from it

question: does proving something make it true or do you know some certain things to be true and work from there?

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

botg, Proof within a partic

botg,

Proof within a particular math system establishes mathematical truth within that system (usually) - but true in some absolute sense? I don't think so. Descartes made the argument long ago that there in no way to establish that even math truths are absolute. I tend to agree.

Descartes made the argument l

Descartes made the argument long ago that there in no way to establish that even math truths are absolute. I tend to agree.

It's still not how you live personally and not how society functions generally

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

botg, Well, I know that as

botg,

Well, I know that as a matter of practicality, I have to accept math truths to get my paycheck.

and historical truth that you

and historical truth that you got a mortage, purchased a house etc. so you can go home at night

Great discussion! thanks hyd

Great discussion! thanks hydro et al - I'm outta here - til tomorrow!

Gay haters unite!

proof

The proof of 1 + 1 = 2 is indeed a very complex and tedious proof. Once that has been established, then proving other addition results is just the product of mathematical induction.

[Note: Axioms are not proven.]

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.
Thompson/Rice

how do you arrive at an axiom

how do you arrive at an axiom?

seems if you must prove 1+1=2 then nothing is a given

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

botg, That's a good questio

botg,

That's a good question - and one I'll let someone with more math background answer.

But from what I understand, there are different types of mathematical systems that deal with different types of math entities - in some of them, something like "1+1=2" (or some appropriate translation into the system's language) might not be given as an axiom and might take work to prove.

But really - someone who knows more about this stuff than me should comment on this.

axiom

An axiom is an assumption that can be accepted as true. Most people accept that 1 + 1 = 2 is true...this would be an axiom. Then with mathematical induction, you could arrive at 2 + 2 = 4. Whitehead and Russell were not content with that and they took it a lot further. [Truthfully, it has been about 25 years since I studied this proof. It was very complex then...trying to recall their axioms eludes me.]

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.
Thompson/Rice

LionKing, I guess my questi

LionKing,

I guess my question is - how do you know what and how many axioms you need for a system? I know it took a while for them to axiomatize Euclidean geometry - so they made sure that they had all the necessary axioms (formulated in the right way) to derive all geometrical theorems.

But how do you go about it in general? That I got no clue on.

hydro

Actually, in most existing fields of study, I would venture to guess that axioms are not used. If a new Theorem is to be proved, then it must rely on other Theorems or specific Lemmas [Mini-theorems]. Much of the basics of existing fields have been tackled by many a great mathematician.

In new fields, I imagine that a group of like-minded mathematicians get together and come to terms defining the new field including its axioms. From these axioms, theorems are derived that are used to shape this particular field.

The real trick is being able to use one field of study to prove or disprove Theorems in other fields.

LionKing, Yea, I would gues

LionKing,

Yea, I would guess that most of the work in math is done within some established system, in which case you use the existing theorems, lemmas, conjectures, etc... to do your work.

But I was wondering what the actual procedure is for establishing the axioms in some given area. How do you know if you have all the axioms you need - or that you don't have more than you need? That I don't have a clue on.

hydro, actually number theory

hydro, actually number theory is relevant to this site. Sometimes you need it to understand the arguements about Global Warming.

What is humourous to me is that sometimes I am included in the SET of all 'liberals' and sometimes I am not..!?? It's very strange!

mandrake, But if you were i

mandrake,

But if you were included in the set of all sets that don't include liberals, would you be a liberal then?

I have a headache.

Russell's paradox! too funny.

Russell's paradox! too funny.

mandrake, I was hoping you'

mandrake,

I was hoping you'd get the reference.

TruthMonger, Well, ultimate

TruthMonger,

Well, ultimately, there is no difference. I say you can "prove" that one mathematical statement follows from another because of the way math is set up - it has built into definite rules of what it means to "prove" something (well, that isn't quite true, but for our purposes, lets pretend it is). But even then, every mathematical system has a set of axioms which are accepted as true without proof.

Proof is an interesting conce

Proof is an interesting concept isn't it?

What do you think about advanced mathematical "proof" 500 years ago?

Or 500 years from now?

Gay haters unite!

TruthMonger, &quot;advanced

TruthMong