Michael Moore and MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann had a lovefest on “Countdown” July 12. Now, we’re not quite talking Brokeback Mountain, but close enough.
The filmmaker went on “Countdown” to discuss his recent catfight with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer and Dr. Sanjay Gupta, but got sidetracked with his praise for Olbermann.
“[I] think what really got me going in terms of the other day [his spat with CNN] is that I just, I just feel Keith – and – and of course you talk about this all the time on – on your show, and your commentaries have been incredible about the war – that here we are, we’re in the fifth year of this thing and, and I've seen very few media outlets issue an apology for not doing the job that they should have done,” Moore said.
Olbermann also had no qualms about letting his viewers know how much he supports Moore. In the interview tease, Olbermann said national health insurance is a topic again “thanks to Michael Moore’s movie ‘SiCKO.’”
“You just used a great phrase here that – that we seem to be distracted by – by nitpicking,” said Olbermann. “This is the way things like … should there be universal health care. These are the way these things get – get sidetracked. Isn’t it?”
Nitpicking is apparently fine with Moore, when he’s doing it. It’s just when others start calling his facts into question that he gets hot and bothered. Moore calls it nitpicking, CNN called it fact-checking.
Moore told Olbermann that he wasn’t going to give up until CNN issued an apology for its “inaccuracies” that led to his spat with Blitzer and Gupta.
—Dan Gainor is director of the Business and Media Institute.
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
"By the way, Keith, I ju
July 13, 2007 - 20:32 ET by drillanwr"By the way, Keith, I just love your shoes! Where'd you get them? And do they come in, you know, BIG BOY size?"
LMAO! That would be size 1
July 13, 2007 - 20:37 ET by motherbeltLMAO! That would be size 12 G, right?
CNN should say they'll apol
July 13, 2007 - 20:40 ET by motherbeltCNN should say they'll apologize right after Moore apologizes for the inaccuracies in his films.
Oh, but seriously, Moore doesn't have to apologize...his films are spoof, and opinion, and satire, and a combination of all...you know a "work of art" as he calls them.
Artistic license, you know.
Sadly, I predict that CNN in
July 13, 2007 - 20:57 ET by Philly Pete 07Sadly, I predict that CNN in general and more specifically Wolf Blitzer, will be apologizing to that loud mouth oaf in the not too distant future. I think Wolf was simply asking well grounded questions to the "liar" without realizing the questions he asked were too pointed and that Moore was without answers or explanations. Therefore, Moore exploded unexpectantly and now CNN is shocked. We'll see CNN (Wolf Blitzer) capitulate soon!
Just curious-have there been
July 13, 2007 - 22:24 ET by Del DolemonteJust curious-have there been any websites spring up recently dedicated to sniffing out and brick by brick documenting errors or intellectual dishonesty in Moore's latest movie?
Maybe it's been too soon since it came out...
:)
July 14, 2007 - 00:52 ET by clarkfkI am from Michigan, where Michael Moore is from. I want to take this time to personally apologize, on behalf of the State of Michigan and its residents, for Michael Moore. Most of us here are not proud of him and resent the tarnish he has put upon this great state.
On a side note: Michael Moore is from the second worst city in Michigan - Flint. Flint is a very blue collar and democrat supporting city. So, in some way I can understand where he is coming from. But mostly I just wish he'd fall into one of our great lakes and "disappear" like so many other shipwrecks before him.
clark -Some things are just o
July 14, 2007 - 11:14 ET by drillanwrclark -
Some things are just out of your control ... except Global warming.
Michael Moore and MSNBC’s K
July 13, 2007 - 21:46 ET by GatorgradMichael Moore and MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann can KISS MY ARSE!
No really! Both of them are contemptious asses that think that the USA is better off with some feel good socialistic government that is ruled by the left that "feels" what is "moral" and "just".
Neither of those oafs ever have a debate over the issues and just spew opinions and meaningless statistics like all other bleeding heart, bed wetting liberals. Not to mention they act like they are above all that question them as if they are behind the curtain and "Nobody should question the great and powerful OZ!"
Give me a break! I am so SICKO of the two of them.
"Ma, he's making eyes at
July 13, 2007 - 21:54 ET by Scout Finch"Ma, he's making eyes at me! Ma, he's awful nice to me! Ma, he wants to marry me!"
I watched this when it came
July 13, 2007 - 22:51 ET by LighthouseJI watched this when it came on, it was pretty shameless. I guess Moore needed the comfort of someone to agree with him after the shock of someone confronting him with facts.
I thought Moore failed in his entire endeavor to take on CNN. Moore ambushed Blitzer, then when Gupta called Moore out by saying he cherrypicked figures to skew them as much as possible, then Moore comes crying on Olbermann's shoulder was the decider.
I hope some people are already working on a rebuttal film to Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 1/2. I always enjoy seeing how bitter the democrats still are over 2000 and the fact the existings laws, not Bush, "stole the election". Now, the majority of the public are tired of being associated with the Iraq war (not that they neccessarily support Democrats but the media doesn't make that distinction), the leftist machine is in overdrive and falling over themselves to advance their agendas (and organize corruption schemes they know the media won't put nearly as big of a spotlight on).
Well, at least Olbermann did
July 13, 2007 - 23:03 ET by SMGalbraithWell, at least Olbermann didn't hand Moore a check.
So, this generation's Edward R. Murrow (oy!) is becoming a bit more professional in his new-found profession (one hesitates to call it journalism; certainly not news reporting).
SMG
“Nitpicking is apparently f
July 13, 2007 - 23:39 ET by Space Cowboy“Nitpicking is apparently fine with Moore, when he’s doing it. It’s just when others start calling his facts into question that he gets hot and bothered. Moore calls it nitpicking, CNN called it fact-checking”.
Here we go again folks. Yep, your hot shot blogger/reporter, Dan Gainor, is on top of another fast-breaking, hard-hitting expose’. Michael Moore EXPOSED. See it LIVE here on NewsBusters!!
Much is made of the fact that Moore gets hot under the collar about the charge of “fudging the facts”. Read this excerpt from the Larry King ingerview with MM and Dr. Gupta and see if you wouldn’d have gotten pissed too. Here’s the sum total of what this “fact-checking expose’ of Moore is all about:
KING: Dr. Gupta, what did he fudge?
GUPTA: Well, you know, we talked about the specific numbers with regards to Cuba per capita spending versus in the United States. And look --
KING: All right, let's get through that.
GUPTA: Well, I mean, he pulls $251 from this BBC unsourced report and then he -- and then he has this $7,000 number, which is a projected HHS number. It's not -- it's not an actual number yet.
The sum total of the “major” difference here is that Moore seems to have accepted as fact numbers that the BBC reported regarding per capita health care cost in Cuba – not an egregious journalistic sin as far as I can see – and used HHS numbers that are PROJECTED for this year. That’s what the “fudged” charge is based on. To "fact check" Moore, Gupta pulled up some nitpicky alternative numbers. We could debate whether Gupta's chosen numbers were more or less correct than Moore's, but nothing supported the idea that Moore "fudged the facts" as was claimed.
After Dr. Gupta agreed with Moore's number for Cuba - and admitted that he'd made a mistake - this comes down to $1400 difference between Moore and Gupta in the annual per person health care in the U.S. – the figures Gupta uses is data that is three years old and the figures Moore uses are projections from HHS for this year? I mean, which would you pick? I’d go with the current projection and, if you asked this question to 100 people on the street, 99 of them probably would too.
Furthermore, all of this comes weeks after Moore emailed his coaberating information to Gupta and Gupta still couldn’t even get the Cuban numbers right. He had to retract those numbers on air.
What is clear is that "fact checking Moore" means one can throw up something, anything, and use it to cast doubt on his integrity and fools like you will slurp it up like kool-aid.
Yep, this is some major sh*t, people. You're really on top of breaking news here, Gainor. I can see why they hired a hot shot like you
Space Cowpie,First of all, Mi
July 13, 2007 - 23:54 ET by Dave RSpace Cowpie,
First of all, Michael Moore has been proven time & time & time again to be a flagrant liar. If you believe anything said by this man, particularly his assertion that the Cuban "healthcare" system, or the Canadian one, is better than our own, then you are a total idiot.
Right now, if you live in Canada and your dog needs a hip replacent, that operation can be obtained in about a week. If, however, you reside in that country and you or a two-legged loved one should need same, your wait will be two to three years. If I need one, I could probably have it scheduled by next Tuesday, at the latest.
Stop coming in here and making typical liberal excuses for the fact that you are too lazy, too stupid or too ignorant to take responsibility for your own heathcare.
After all, about all you liberals out there ever do is push the responsibilities you should be taking on onto someone else.
Get off your ass, you lazy POS.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
Yo, Dave R Stupid, speaking o
July 14, 2007 - 00:01 ET by Space CowboyYo, Dave R Stupid, speaking of getting off your lazy ass, I notice YOU DIDN'T ADDRESS ONE FREAKING THING that Moore SUPPOSEDLY "fudged". What's wrong, forget to engage your mind before you heaved your load of vomit all over this blog?
If everything Moore says is a lie, you'd think even a simplton like you would be able to come up with some evidence. But then, you'd have thought wrong.
Spaceterd,What I am sick to d
July 14, 2007 - 00:22 ET by Dave RSpaced-out Cowboy,
What I am sick to damn death of is irresponsible liberals like Michael Moore and you telling me that I am somehow responsible (and should therefore have to pay) for the STUPID DECISIONS MADE BY GOVERNMENT MIS-EDUCATED IDIOTS. After all, our healthcare system didn't start having real problems until the government started getting involved. The deeper the involvment of government, the worse (and more expensive) these problems become.
I am truly sorry that there are those who made decisions in their lives that caused them to be unable to take care of their own heathcare, but I am already having over half of what I earn taken away from me (at gun point) and given to idiots who have made stupid and irresponsible decisions in their lives.
I heard a caller on a local talk show recently that was bitching that he couldn't afford health insurance. It turns out the guy was 32 years old and had two kids, yet he was only making $7.50/hr working in some retail store. What the hell is this 32 yo idiot who can only make barely above minimum wage doing having children in the first place? And why should I have to pay for that stupid decision?
Our government is the exact same government that runs the USPS, creates regulations that require Americans to obtain passports to travel in and out of Mexico and Canada, yet cannot even begin to keep up with the increased demand for said passports-to the point where many Americans are having to cancel their non-refundable vacations. This is the same government that teaches our children that 2 + 2 = 5, 6, 3 or whatever the hell the idiot kid thinks it sould be.
This is also the very same government that couldn't find its ass with both hands, directions, a flashlight, a map and a fifteen minute head-start, yet you government-worshiping liberals want to put something as important as our healthcare system in control of this very same idiot government.
I cannot even begin to imagine anything more stupid than that.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
Dumbo, I share your impatienc
July 14, 2007 - 01:01 ET by Space CowboyDumbo, I share your impatience with government buracracy - especially under the Bush Administration. They are doing a grand job of proving that government is the problem.
However, note that we're the only major industrial country - except South Africa (if you want to call them a major industrial nation) - that doesn't provide UNIVERSAL medical care. At the same time, we pay TWICE the per capita cost for health care as the next closest country. We do this while about 46 million people don't have health care and while our health care costs are going up at TWICE the rate of inflation. And the World Health Orgination ranks our OVERALL quality of health care at 35th - two places better than Cuba.
So, Dumbo, you tell me what the problem is with this situation - if any - and what the solution is - if any. Why is our country spending more and getting less? Why can every other country provide for ALL their citizens (at least at the basic levels)?
Yes, I know we have very high-tech and high-end health care available for those that can pay. But, why not a quality system for all? We already supply half of our nations health care with Medicare which delivers health care at a fraction of the overhead costs of HMO's. Why can't that model be expanded? We could continue to have a insurance-funded system for those that want it - as several other countries are doing - and provide a basic system at a fraction of the costs that we are paying now - AS EVERY OTHER MAJOR INDUSTRIAL NATION DOES.
And, Dumbo, once again you've done NOTHING to challenge the issue I opened with - that Gainor is serving up kool-aid regarding Moore's "fudging" the facts.
Well Space Cowboy,You can lov
July 14, 2007 - 12:20 ET by mikejWell Space Cowboy,
You can love Moore and his lie's all you want, but my question is, why do you want universal health care like Canada and Cuba? So you look forward to long waiting lists for transplants and surgeries? Having to make routine Dr's appt's months and months in advance?
New York Times article “”Doctor, What’s the Prognosis? Crisis for Canada”:
“Does any of this sound like the utopia of “universal coverage” Canadian politicians promised their constituents? Ask the people who have to wait 8 weeks for an MRI; or 4 months for heart bypass surgery; or 10 weeks for referral to any kind of specialist. The hard truth is that socialized medicine is destroying health care in Canada.
“Most Americans do not like the restrictions on choice and flexibility dictated by today’s managed care/HMO system. Increasingly, American patients encounter similar versions of what Canadians face: waiting lists for appointments, arbitrary treatment decisions made by bureaucrats rather than by physicians, and the threat of cutbacks in government programs such as Medicare in order to control the deficit. Today, in the absence of rational reforms, the United States teeters on the brink of a Canadian-like system. “
Ahh, if only Space Cowboy could give us the utopia of universal health care to rival the utopia that was Iraq before Sadaam was ousted and the US destroyed the flowery meadows and dammed up the rivers that ran with chocolate.
Liberals easily demonstrate the moronic abilities for all to see.
You know, mikej, if I was you
July 14, 2007 - 13:19 ET by Space CowboyYou know, mikej, if I was you, I'd avoid the use of the word "moronic" unless I was looking in a mirror.
First, you, like most on this thread - including the head phoobah, Gainor - repeat over and over the kool-aid induced belief that Moore "lies". When I post proof that Gupta's charge of "fudging the facts" rests on a few "facts" that Gupta has selected that are themselves suspect, I get no response except to repeat - again and again - that Moore "lies". None of you can address how specious these claims are or even seem aware of your own willingness here on NewsBusters to react like Pavlovian dogs and to be manipulated by such claims. You apparently don't mind being led around by the nose like pliant fools or are bothered by your own willingness to dutifully regurgitate whatever talking points these people want you to repeat.
And, secondly, to bolster your case about the failings of the single payer system in Canada, you use a quote from the New York Times that includes detailed problems with . . . wait for it now . . . OUR OWN HMO-CONTROLLED SYSTEM!!
"Increasingly, American patients encounter similar versions of what Canadians face: waiting lists for appointments, arbitrary treatment decisions made by bureaucrats rather than by physicians, and the threat of cutbacks in government programs such as Medicare in order to control the deficit. Today, in the absence of rational reforms, the United States teeters on the brink of a Canadian-like system. “
Good one, mikej. As Forrest Gump's mom would have said, "Stupid is as stupid does".
But, no hard feelings about your lack of substance, logic, or coherence which you replace with a heavy dependence on insults. Us "liberals" are very compassionate towards the mentally-challenged. I'm sure you're doing the best you can.
I don't know the answer to the American health care system's problems, but I would appreciate an HONEST debate. Moore deserves credit for making health care an issue. And, even Dr. Gupta alludes to the problems he has with our system - the kind of problems the NYT quote you post above alludes to as well. I know these problems first hand because my girlfriend is a doctor who works hard to help her patients and then works even harder to jump throught all the obstacles to getting paid that the insurance companies place in her path.
We SHOULD fact-check Moore but don't you think people like Dan Gainor need to be held accountable too? All I'm asking for is an honest debate. Let's call BS when we see it - no matter who's dishing it out.
SpaceFirst, you, like most on
July 14, 2007 - 13:35 ET by botgSpace
First, you, like most on this thread - including the head phoobah, Gainor - repeat over and over the kool-aid induced belief that Moore "lies".
Like it or not Moore is a liar (ht Acumen posted just below if space had bothered to check)
I have a copy of F911, enough there to convince me to not waste any more time listening to or fact-checking MM.
Kopel also disemboweled the &
July 14, 2007 - 13:46 ET by Del DolemonteKopel also disemboweled the "facts" in another Moore "documentary" here. The comparison with Spinal Tap is a riot!
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp
First, see my response to acu
July 14, 2007 - 14:05 ET by Space CowboyFirst, see my response to acumen below.
And, secondly, even IF all the Kopel stuff was accurate - which it isn't - none of you are addressing the CURRENT attempt to make Moore into a liar that is posted above by Gainor.
What part of Gainor is a propogandist do you not get?
see post below why when we ha
July 14, 2007 - 14:07 ET by botgsee post below
why when we have a known LIAR would we waste more time on his sorry arse?
\"The more I study science, the more I believe in God." Einstein
Even Moore admits he lies
July 14, 2007 - 14:04 ET by Jack BauerI'm sorry to break this to you, but the so-called documentary which first brought "success" to Michael Moore is "Roger And Me"...
The whole premise of the movie (and Moore has actually ADMITTED) is a lie from start to finish.
And that would be this: the documentary purports to show Michael Moore trying to get an interview with Roger Smith, General Motors CEO who made the decision to close the plant at Flint, Michigan, which resulted in the loss of 30,000 jobs.
The only problem is: Moore had interviewed Smith on camera three times. And Smith had agreed to these interviews.
Now, if you want to believe Moore about anything, that's your problem.
But please, DO NOT come here and maintain the fiction that Michael Moore can have anything to do with an honest debate about anything.
So, Moore's use of a theatric
July 14, 2007 - 14:26 ET by Space CowboySo, Moore's use of a theatric device - "here I am stalking Smith for an interview" - disqualifies his documentary - even though, in reality, he had succeeded in getting the interview? OK, that's your call.
I wonder if you apply anything like that standard to the Bush Administration (but that's an argument for another time and not a parallel example as we're talking about the responsibilities of a documentary producer trying to illustrate a point with poetic license and a government with a sacred contract to be honest with the people it purports to lead).
I'm going to throw in the towel on defending Moore at this point. I know his style is outreageous and over the top and that leads to the kind of tedious disection that Kopel devoted himself to which, in turn, leads to the constant rant by people like you that Moore "lies". I guess I look at the bigger picture Moore is painting, find his style fun to watch and don't get hung up on the kind of thing Kopel does (see my example below in the answer to acumen). But, love him or hate him, you have to give him credit for being able to get his work seen. He's master of that.
But, for the record, no one on this thread has even attempted to address the current attempt to make Moore into an inveterate liar - the interview with CNN and the use of Dr. Gupta's "facts" which led to the charge that Moore "fudged the facts".
So, to be fair to all, how about I admitt that Moore - in his outrageous style - likes to "cherry pick" facts (as Gupta puts it) to support his opinions and play with theatric devices like stalking Smith and YOU admit that the attempts to discredit Moore are equally suspect. Deal?
And, let's all admit - I would hope - that we need to address the problems with the American health care system.
I have no idea whether Moore
July 14, 2007 - 14:38 ET by Jack BauerI have no idea whether Moore lying disqualifies his work as a documentary for you.
I had this weird idea that unlike works of fiction, a documentary was meant to tell a true story from the perspective (and perceived truth) of the Director.
Now while it was true that GM closed their Flint plant and that affected the community ... it was not true that Moore couldn't get CEO Smith to talk about that.
So, far from being a framing device, what Moore did was calculating and unpleasant.
He manipulated the ACTUAL truth to make Smith look like a heartless bastard who didn't have the decency to even try to justify his corporate decision.
You know: Smith to workers, fuck you?
I have no idea whehter Roger Smith is a heartless bastard or not. And guess what, I don't need Michael Moore to decide that for me by a "theatrical device."
Maybe you are happy with that. I think his manipulation makes Moore a lying twat.
So given his track record, why should we believe one thing Michael Moore films?
Now, you prove to me that Michael Moore hasn't lied in all his subsequent documentaries.
I don't know the "Roger
July 14, 2007 - 14:48 ET by Space CowboyI don't know the "Roger and Me" story enough to discuss.
But, I'll give you a much easier assighnment than you gave me (prove to me that Michael Moore hasn't lied in all his subsequent documentaries). You prove to me that the Gupta's charge that Moore "fudged the facts" that started this thread is true.
If you're going to demand that Moore meet the highest standards of accuracy, at least demand the same from his critics. Or, are you more than willing to grasp ANY charge hurled at Moore and belive it's true?
Ok, you don't have to answer that. I think I know the answer.
And, again, even Gupta admits that we have a problem here in River City with our health care system. You can credit Moore ( I know that will not come easy ) with putting this debate front and center.
Not interested. I know what
July 14, 2007 - 14:51 ET by Jack BauerNot interested. I know what Michael Moore is. And so do you as I have just laid it out in rather fine detail for you. The facts and the demolition of your "theatrical device" theory.
But as I said, if you care to try to prove Moore isn't a liar, I ain't stopping ya.
Ok, and my assighnment still
July 14, 2007 - 15:02 ET by Space CowboyOk, and my assighnment still stands, too. Prove that Gupta is right and Moore is wrong - or, more to the point - that you're not being manipulated by some not-so-skillful propoganda framed and posted by Gainor. Or do you have different standards of honesty depending on whether the person supports your point of view or not?
Ironically, Gupta is in general agreement with what Moore wants to do and actually seems to want to help him be more effective. I don't like, however, that he took a cheap and unsupported shot with the "fudged" charge. In the attempt, ironically, to help Moore be more effective he has undermined his own effectiveness by using questionable data himself.
Let it go...
July 14, 2007 - 17:30 ET by acumenWho really cares besides you SC?
America gave their opinion about socialist health care a long time ago when they rejected Hillarycare.
Besides, we don't really see a lot of difference between what comes out of sicko's mouth or the talking heads on CNN. They are all just a bunch of self-serving bozos willing to sell their mother for 15 more minutes in the spotlight.
Let it go bro, nobody here really cares. Why not just sit back like the rest of us and enjoy the "fat" fight.
Apparently Moore's peers aren
July 14, 2007 - 16:36 ET by drillanwrApparently Moore's peers aren't too keen on his film making and regard him as less than a documentarian. The charge has been renewed as of the recent release of Moore's latest film (saw a couple of the documentarians on FNC a couple weeks ago). Now I suppose the charge will be made that they are just jealous of Moore.
I'll just sit this here quietly and walk away:
Letter to the Academy (Awards)
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2007/07/letter_to_the_a.php
No, the charge will be made t
July 14, 2007 - 16:47 ET by Space CowboyNo, the charge will be made that you saw it on The Faux "News" Channel. Duh!
Soooo, that makes it faux?
July 14, 2007 - 17:13 ET by drillanwrSoooo, that makes it faux?
There aren't documentarians pissed that the Academy of Motion Pictures is recognizing and rewarding Moore in this catagory ... When it is obvious his [works] do NOT fit the rules as outlined for said catagory of Documentary? I, and Fox, have just pulled this out of our collective arses? Moore's fellow documentarians are just honky-donky with him? Oh, and check the date on that letter ... It was written a couple years ago. The directors (actual documentarians) have renewed their protests to the Academy repeatedly. But I (and FNC) are just making it all up ... Okay.
Concensus drill
July 14, 2007 - 17:20 ET by acumenI thought FOX News had the highest ratings of any cable news show.
Wouldn't that make for a "concensus"?
Maybe they get more news channels in space.....
Geeze! You're RIGHT! Can we
July 14, 2007 - 17:35 ET by drillanwrGeeze! You're RIGHT!
Can we now charge all the other networks and cable channels with treason (a la RFK, Jr.), or strip their FCC licenses, journalistic credentials, and any awards they may have collected over the years (a la Dr. Heidi Fleiss ... er, Cullen - sorry, always getting those two mixed up, they have such similar ... um, jobs)???
I would concede that Moore wa
July 14, 2007 - 14:39 ET by botgI would concede that Moore wants to make it look like Fox led the charge to Bush.
So your concession is that Moore is intentionally attempting to deceive!!!!
I'm going to throw in the towel on defending Moore at this point. I know his style is outreageous and over the top and that leads to the kind of tedious disection that Kopel devoted himself to which, in turn, leads to the constant rant by people like you that Moore "lies". I guess I look at the bigger picture Moore is painting,
Let's not quibble over the truth of the 'facts' let's look at the conclusions based on the lies. Just because he lies doesn't mean his conclusions aren't true!!!!
Stop confusing him with facts
July 14, 2007 - 16:54 ET by Del DolemonteStop confusing him with facts.
DelSpace Cowboy stipulates to
July 14, 2007 - 16:56 ET by botgDel
Space Cowboy stipulates to the assertion and then argues against it. Ya can't make this stuff up!
Listen Maurice,I realize that
July 14, 2007 - 23:00 ET by mikejListen Maurice,
I realize that neo-lib's who have this insane idea that government controlled everything is orgasmic, is really what is being put forth here.
My point with the NY Times article was that even with our problems here, it might get so bad that it gets to the point where we HAVE TO HAVE a National Health Care system like Canada or Cuba.
Our system may not be perfect, but it beats by a long shot and a half the Canadain and Cuban forms that are so beloved by the Round Mound of Sound Michael Moore.
Lets Twist Again
July 14, 2007 - 00:26 ET by acumenTo understand the deceptions, it helps to understand Moore’s ideological position.
I wonder if Kopel is going to
July 14, 2007 - 13:42 ET by Del DolemonteI wonder if Kopel is going to do to "Sicko" what he did here to "F-9/11". Seeing as the movie has only been out a short while, my guess is that he or someone else will get around to it real soon.
If you want to believe every
July 14, 2007 - 13:59 ET by Space CowboyIf you want to believe every one of the “deciets” that Dave Kopel serves up on the website you link us to, acumen, be my guest. Here’s an example of just ONE of those “deciets” from his website, “Fifty Nine Deciets in Farenheit 9/11”.
Regarding a brief overview of the election-nite coverage of the 2000 election, Moore’s voice-over moves quickly throught a condensed version of what happened as the networks covered events that night. Apparently TOO condensed for Kopel because he finds a “deciet” in this. The voice-over mentions the early call for Gore and then the shift to Bush. Moore does place the burden of the shift to Bush on Fox News – which was only ONE of the stations that shifted their call – but what he says is true nonetheless.
Here’s a excerpt from Kopel (emphasis mine):
Moore’s editing technique of the election night segment is typical of his style: all the video clips are real clips, and nothing he says is, narrowly speaking, false. But notice how he says, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy…" The impression created is that the Fox call of Florida for Bush came soon after the CBS/CNN calls of Florida for Gore, and that Fox caused the other networks to change ("All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'")
This is the essence of the Moore technique: cleverly blending half-truths to deceive the viewer.
[Moore response: On the networks calls: provides citations for the early and incorrect Florida calls for Gore, around 8 p.m. Eastern Time, and for the late-evening network calls of Florida for Bush around 2:20 a.m. Doesn't mention the retraction of the Florida calls at 10 p.m., or that CBS led the retraction.]
Are we trying a little TOO hard to find “deceit” here? What we have is a voice-over that condenses the events making no mention of an approximate six hour period of time. I would concede that Moore wants to make it look like Fox led the charge to Bush.
I could go on and on with even more examples, but I hope you get my point.
Hate Moore for his editorial opinions if you want but please see this for what it is - an attempt to discredit Moore by making everything he says a "lie".
I would concede that Moore wa
July 14, 2007 - 14:05 ET by botgI would concede that Moore wants to make it look like Fox led the charge to Bush.
So your concession is that Moore is intentionally attempting to deceive!!!!!(a LIAR)
Which is precisely why I won't bother with anything else which come out of this warped person
I admit that Moore is a prank
July 14, 2007 - 14:40 ET by Space CowboyI admit that Moore is a prankster that uses lots of devices that don't strictly adhere to journalistic standards. It's great fun for those that like what he does and leaves him open to the kind of anal-retentive examiniation that Kopel does.
But, in the case at hand, the CNN/Gupta piece, that ends with the charge that Moore "fudged", is just not supported IMHO. At least admit unfairness towards Moore when it's warranted and admit that you're all to happy to use such specious claims to discredit him. If you're going to demand the highest level of "fact-checked" accuracy of Moore, demand the same from his critics.
devices that don't strictly a
July 14, 2007 - 14:49 ET by botgdevices that don't strictly adhere to journalistic standards
precisely why i won't bother with his latest drivel
But, you WILL swallow the koo
July 14, 2007 - 15:05 ET by Space CowboyBut, you WILL swallow the kool-aid served up here by Gainor with no questions? You actually belive that Gupta has a valid point and that the way Gainor wants to use it is honest?
Can you say "double standard". Sure you can.
How about "hypocricy"?
But, you WILL swallow the koo
July 14, 2007 - 15:11 ET by botgBut, you WILL swallow the kool-aid served up here by Gainor with no questions?
I haven't addressed the issue here as i've said numerous times, since Moore is a deceiver as you yourself admitted. I've told you reapeatedly i will not examine further statements from a known LIAR, life is too short to waste and it seems you are trying to blow smoke at the real issue which is Moore's credibility
Naw, I'm laughting at how you
July 14, 2007 - 15:46 ET by Space CowboyNaw, I'm laughting at how you'll swallow any flavor of kool-aid Gainor serves you. As long as the end conclusion is "Moore lied", you could care less how we got there, right.
Right!
I got there via viewing my co
July 14, 2007 - 15:54 ET by botgI got there via viewing my copy of F911
Mikey lies whether you like it or not.
I have not mentioned Gupta or Gainor and you know it; so away with that straw-man. jonbo, if you choose to engage a known liar that's your own foolishness.
And, botg, if you choose to b
July 14, 2007 - 16:09 ET by Space CowboyAnd, botg, if you choose to be so easily manipulated by this CNN/Gupta tempest in a teapot, you're a candidate for a bridge I'm trying to sell. Trust me, you'll get rich - and quick!! Please send me your bank account number immediately and I'll transfer the title.
Thanks, it's nice doing business with such a trusting fool, er, I mean, such a intrepid businessman.
Spaceythis is the FOURTH time
July 14, 2007 - 16:15 ET by botgSpacey
this is the FOURTH time you replied with your straw-man which i have told you repeatedly does not have a durned thing to do with anything.
You must be a troll or just plain dumber than a box of rocks, either way i see no reason to answer you again on this you already look stupid enough!!
I guess I didn't know that ad
July 14, 2007 - 16:44 ET by Space CowboyI guess I didn't know that addressing the point of this whole thread was a "straw man". How convenient for you. Now you don't have to do any heavy lifting to back up your claims that Moore "lies". You can just state it as true and move on.
Why am I not surprised?
Spacely, from 2 hours ago in
July 14, 2007 - 16:49 ET by botgSpacely, from 2 hours ago in YOUR words
botg Says:July 14, 2007 - 14:39
I would concede that Moore wants to make it look like Fox led the charge to Bush.
So your concession is that Moore is intentionally attempting to deceive!!!!
I'm going to throw in the towel on defending Moore at this point. I know his style is outreageous and over the top and that leads to the kind of tedious disection that Kopel devoted himself to which, in turn, leads to the constant rant by people like you that Moore "lies". I guess I look at the bigger picture Moore is painting,
Let's not quibble over the truth of the 'facts' let's look at the conclusions based on the lies. Just because he lies doesn't mean his conclusions aren't true!!!!
(i told you you look stupid enough already)
"Spacely"! That one
July 14, 2007 - 18:23 ET by Del Dolemonte"Spacely"! That one is a keeper. Or you could call him Cosmo...
Bet you weren't ready for that
July 14, 2007 - 16:56 ET by acumenI can only imagine this is what space life in sicko's black hole must be like.
Aint nothing to say
Thats gonna satisfy my soul deep inside
All the prayers and surveyors
Keep the whole place uptight
While it keeps on gettin darker outside
Im a space cowboy
Bet you werent ready for that
Im a space cowboy
Im sure you know where its at
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Hey, acumen, it gives it a li
July 14, 2007 - 17:56 ET by Space CowboyHey, acumen, it gives it a little better context if you include the first half of the verse you chose:
I was born on this rock
And Ive been travelin through space
Since the moment I first realized
What all you fast talkin cats would do if you could
You know, Im ready for the final surprise
There aint no way around it
Aint nothing to say
Thats gonna satisfy my soul deep inside
All the prayers and surveyors
Keep the whole place uptight
While it keeps on gettin darker outside
And, more to the point of my Space Cowboy persona is this verse:
All you back room schemers, small trip dreamers
Better find something new to say
Cause youre the same old story
Its the same old crime
And you got some heavy dues to pay
That’s YOU I’m talking about, Sparky.
I'm humbled SC
July 14, 2007 - 18:22 ET by acumen......it gives it a little better context if you include the first half of the verse you chose.....
Yeah, but I thought you would appreciate me using sicko's technique. Can't win.....
That’s YOU I’m talking about, Sparky.
Thank you! Oh! Thank you! I feel so special, I can hardly conjugate verbs. I just want everyone to know that even in my wildest hallucinations, I never would have fantasized that this acknowledgement by the Space Cadette Academy could ever be so meaningless. You know, there are so many back-stabbing, two-faced harpies to thank! First off though, I want to pay off the self-congratulatory circle jerks in the demedia, who looked deep within their magic 8-balls before giving me this fantastic recognition! Also, I want to thank my guru for being such a powerful force in my contract negotiations. And to the people under the stairs like Space Cadette, who taught me to take life by the fifth of cheap wine. And finally, to all the sycophantic talk show hosts, I couldn't have done it without you! Thank you America, and good night!
You're welcome, of course, ac
July 14, 2007 - 18:37 ET by Space CowboyYou're welcome, of course, acumen.
I think you left out the line, "They LOVE me. They. . . they really love me."
But, you got my life's motto right, "Living life one cheap bottle of wine at a time".
"I mean, which would y
July 14, 2007 - 00:15 ET by ckc1227"I mean, which would you pick? I’d go with the current
projection "
For some reason, I'm not surprised you'd prefer the projected, unproven numbers over the ones proven to be true. The cost per person comparison is a canard to begin with. That's like comparing the cost of living between a homeless person and a middle class homeowner. Sure, the homeless person has a lower cost of living, but I ain't trading places with him.
Still, believe whatever you'd like. Just have the honesty of your convictions and make sure the next time your child(if you have children) gets sick, you do everthing you can to get her to Cuba for treatment. I wouldn't want her to suffer needlessly in our inferior health care system.
Ironic note:
Italy, according to WHO, is number 2 for health care, yet, for some reason, their former leader, Silvio Berlusconi came here for his heart treatment.
One point we have missed in d
July 14, 2007 - 18:33 ET by Del DolemonteOne point we have missed in discussing this case with Spacely here is that he's actually admitting that a CNN person may have been dishonest.
Gee, Cosmo, do you think CNN may have been lying about other stuff in the past? Oh, that's right, they already admitted covering up for Saddam Hussein's atrocities so they could keep their Baghdad Bureau open. And their CEO had to resign in disgrace after falsely accusing US troops of murdering journalists. Sounds like faux news to me LOL.
Moore should have brought a g
July 14, 2007 - 01:20 ET by JohnBMoore should have brought a glove and bat to handle the softballs Olbermann tossed at him.
This is all part of the plan to win
July 14, 2007 - 13:16 ET by exLibThis is all part of the Dems plan to win in 08 and the MSM helping them do it.
Moore's blow up at CNN was eerily reminiscent of Clinton's tirade at Wallce on Fox.
Dems refuse to debate on Fox.
Moore and other's insistence that the only reason there was a war was because the MEDIA didn't do it's job and basically lied along with Bush.
So what does this accomplish. It all leads to one simple fact.
It lets all the Dems off the hook for voting for the Iraq war, ALL of THEM.
I agree with another poster who said Wolf WILL apologize to Moore. It's will happen IF the goal is to get Dems completely in power in 08.
Then you have to add in all the stories about how pious all the Dems are vs how hypocritical the Reps are in their faiths.
Question:When a devout worshi
July 14, 2007 - 14:18 ET by drillanwrQuestion:
When a devout worshiper such as Olberman finds himself in the presence of Michael Moore does he make the sign of the Golden Arches before genuflecting? Is communion a pepperoni slice on the outstretched tongue, followed with a drink from the holy beer can?
Pity he keeps breaking the 11
July 14, 2007 - 14:20 ET by Jack BauerPity he keeps breaking the 11th Commandment: