Even CNN can swallow only so much of the Michael Moore, socialized-medicine Kool-Aid.
Just when you thought all hope was lost, CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta took on Moore on the July 10 “Larry King Live.” Gupta criticized inaccuracies in the data used in Moore pro-universal health care flick “SiCKO.”
Moore had lost his cool the day before on “The Situation Room” with Wolf Blitzer because a report by Gupta claimed Moore had “fudged” some his numbers. Those numbers were primarily data about the costs of health care for Cubans, even though Gupta had committed his own blunder with one of the numbers.
Gupta accused Moore of “cherry picking” certain data from various reports on health care to substantiate his case and said Moore’s lack of consistency could have consequences on the drive for socialized care. “It makes it very hard to advance the argument if you're not getting the numbers right,” Gupta said.
Moore also accused Gupta of ignoring that one of his sources had donated money to various Republican candidates. Ironically, Gupta and Moore have one thing in common – they both have donated money to political candidates, but all to Democrats in recent elections.
Comments Policy
Insert "Sounds like Moore was
July 11, 2007 - 13:09 ET by Challenger GrimInsert "Sounds like Moore was swift-boated" joke here.
Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!
This is OT, but is anyone e
July 11, 2007 - 13:37 ET by motherbeltThis is OT, but is anyone else having site trouble? Whenever I hit "post comment" or "login", I get a blank page with the notation "done" at the bottom, as if the page had loaded. I have to use my NB bookmark and start all over to get back to the page.
Motherbelt...Me tooThe only t
July 11, 2007 - 13:43 ET by Airforce_5_OMotherbelt...Me too
The only thing you should feel when shooting insurgents is recoil.
I'm having the same trouble.
July 11, 2007 - 13:44 ET by HelenSI'm having the same trouble.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
OK so it's not me LOL. Hop
July 11, 2007 - 13:53 ET by motherbeltOK so it's not me LOL. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.
At least our posts make it th
July 11, 2007 - 14:42 ET by stratmanAt least our posts make it through despite the snafu.
I get it too.
July 11, 2007 - 14:16 ET by kbworkmanIs this part of the fairness doctrine?
Maybe - could Reid and co., h
July 11, 2007 - 14:44 ET by FastEdMaybe - could Reid and co., have stolen the Rove weather machine and alterd it to creat blank pages on a media bias blog? Seems fair to me.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
Hypocrisy
July 11, 2007 - 14:06 ET by exLibFunny how every Moore movie is an in-kind contribution to the DNC and MM is worried that ONE of Gupta's sources donates to Republicans.
WOW!
Chutzpah often as not actua
July 11, 2007 - 14:16 ET by sarcasmoChutzpah often as not actually works; and in chess, poker, and politics the best defense is usually simply a persistently-good offense. Michael Moore is nothing if not persistently-offended by the news media despite their fawning bias FOR his propaganda-films, in most cases. "Hypo-crazy" chutzpah of this level, however, is rare...Good observation/catch.
JMR
What I found more illustrativ
July 11, 2007 - 15:06 ET by EvilRoyWhat I found more illustrative of Moore's motives was when Wolf asked permission to continue the interview on videotape with Moore and show it later in the broadcast. Moore practically choked on his own saliva; he would NOT allow anyone to film him if he didn't have complete control over the editing. He practically called Wolf a liar when Wolf promised to show the tape unedited. So much for trust in the Wide World of Michael Moore.
Moore understands very well t
July 11, 2007 - 15:21 ET by GalvanicMoore understands very well the power of editing, because he's a professional film editor who has extracted quotes out of context to humiliate his subject.
I think what's getting Moore this time around is that some MSM outlets are actually scrutinizing the claims in his film, and he's chaffing under the scrutiny. Add to that, his film will probably earn considerably less than Fahrenheit 911; maybe he's trying to squeeze out a little more publicity for it through controversy..
Racial slur?
July 11, 2007 - 14:19 ET by mercerg1Anyone else catch Moore mocking Dr. Gupta's last name by saying it with an exaggerated Indian accent during his interview with Wolf?
Where's the sensitivity police now?
People who do that are insecu
July 11, 2007 - 17:05 ET by Del DolemontePeople who do that are insecure.
By the way, I was shocked to see Larry King actually scold Lumpy at one point last night. He deserved it, though.
Idiot
July 11, 2007 - 15:38 ET by Al SnoreMichael Moore is the biggest load of crap. People who are part of systems with socialized medicine not only pay way higher taxes, they are forced to wait months at a time for appointments or for procedures such as surgeries. I have spoken to Canadians who have been part of the American and Canadian system, and guess which one they prefer??
I'm frustrated that, after li
July 11, 2007 - 16:14 ET by Space CowboyI'm frustrated that, after listening to this discussion both yesterday and today, I'm still waiting to hear exactly what facts Gupta thinks Moore fudged. All of this hoopla is about disagreements over the amount spent per person in Cuba and the U.S.? It's literally a tempest in a teapot. But, hey, whatever it takes to get the usual Pavlovian response to the mere mention of Michael Moore's name on NewsBusters.
You even mention that Gupta had to admit to being wrong about the amount per person spent in Cuba but still manage to make this sound like some kind of MM smackdown. Earth to NewsBusters, your blatant bias is showing.
It's important to point out that, even though Gupta is in general agreement with Moore's overall take on our health care system, his claim that facts are wrong in "Sicko" will be what people take away from this little dustup. You did notice that he was in agreement with Moore that the system is a in dire need of reform? You somehow forgot to point that out.
Larry King did an admirable job but was still failed to get a precise focus on Moore and Gupta's differences unless the minor quible about the ranking of the U.S. vs. Cuba and the amount spent per person by both Cuba and the U.S. was the sum total of the debate. That was it? That's all Gupta has to complain about that Moore got "wrong"? And, then he has to actually correct himself about his own Cuba data? And, he had been emailed all of Moore's supporting data weeks ago and still insisted on using per person figures for the U.S. that are almost three years old.
This could whole episode could have acturately been labeled "Gupta makes much ado about nothing and embarrases himself in the process." But leave it to NewsBusters to serve up another distortion of Moore and his movie for the slobering fools they cater to.
I'm frustrated that this little quibble has overshadowed the really important issues and allowed kool-aid drinking sychopants like Dan Gainor to try and discredit "Sicko" with a pointless debate over which source of data is more accurate - even though the difference between the amounts in dispute is negligable and the two debaters are in general agreement.
Must be a slow news day at NewsBusters.
Mikey! Is that you? Have anot
July 11, 2007 - 17:03 ET by Del DolemonteMikey! Is that you? Have another cheeseburger.
Anyone who has seen "SiC
July 11, 2007 - 17:03 ET by Dan GainorAnyone who has seen "SiCKO" could discredit it because it is a piece of one-sided trash propaganda. And I am no one's sychophant, especially not Gupta's. He's just finally made a few decent points here. Any time that happens, even CNN deserves a modicum of credit.
And even a 2-year-old could follow both of our blog posts on this issue to larger stories on the BMI Web site for further info. You are at least 2, right?
SC, if that is the best you've got, I suggest you crawl back to Democratic Underground where your ilk get their jollies.
Um, Dan, you seemed to have m
July 11, 2007 - 17:26 ET by Space CowboyUm, Dan, you seemed to have missed my point - just like you missed the fact that Gupta and Moore are in general agreement that the health care system in this country is in dire need of reform and that the differences they have are minor. If you can't address those simple and straight-forward points, I'm afraid it's you that needs to crawl off somewhere. I mean, how in the world did you get a job here?
So, you've got the floor. You're the man with the plan who's put up this post for some reason, so let's have the answers: are we wasting time in idle chatter about nothing here or is there some glaring distortion that you want to point out that supports Gupta's claim of "fudging" besides the different cost per person he claims for the U.S. and Cuban health care systems? (Oops, sorry. He had to retract his Cuban numbers. Don't you hate it when that happens?) Or, is that enough for you to declare a Gupta "smackdown"?
Or, maybe you want to take a different approach and explain to us why we're the only developed country that lacks a universal health care system, or why we spend more thanTWICE the per-person amount of the next closest country, Switzerland? Or why we rank 35th in the World Health Organization's rankings of health care quality? Or how anyone with a glimmer of compassion can stand for HMO's that have whole departments devoted to denying health care to people that have paid for it?
I await with bated breath. Address the point or crawl - your choice.
(chirp, chirp)Nothing but cri
July 11, 2007 - 18:14 ET by Space Cowboy(chirp, chirp)
Nothing but cricket noises here.
Crickets getting stomped on, lazy boy
July 11, 2007 - 20:13 ET by UnsaneThis country has such horrible, scummy health care that it continues to clean house in the Nobel Prize Medicine category (with few exceptions) since at least the 1970s.
This country has such horrible, scummy health care that it is on the forefront of the frontier of medical science. I would be willing to bet that the city of Houston ALONE has done more to advance medical science over the past decade than any of your beloved Nanny States has done in the past 40.
This country has such horrible, scummy health care that Silvio Berlusconi went to that massive Italian metropolis of Cleveland for his "free" health care. Oh, what's that? He went to Cleveland even though he had to PAY for it? Why, that cannot be!!! Italy is supposed to have FREE QUALITY HEALTH CARE!!!
To me, it's not much of a coincidence that France last got a Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1980.
Now, stop being lazy, stop trying to steal from me, and get your own damn doctor.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
And anyone who believes sta
July 11, 2007 - 20:25 ET by Jack BauerAnd anyone who believes statistics produced by any UN agency, really does deserve to be sent to a Cuban hospital for their next major health problem.
And not one of those nice hospitals frequented by Fidel Castro and the gang, but one of the dumps open to the average Cuban peasant.
So Jack, don't you have some
July 11, 2007 - 21:29 ET by Space CowboySo Jack, don't you have some bad evil-doers/terrorists to corral and torture . . . or something.
I'm surprised you find time to blog on subjects you don't seem to know a lick about with arguments that are as worthless as so much spit in the ociean.
Who is collecting tolls at
July 11, 2007 - 21:43 ET by Free StinkerWho is collecting tolls at your bridge?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in one building.
Humorous isn't it Free?Jack c
July 11, 2007 - 21:49 ET by bigtimerHumorous isn't it Free?
Jack could wipe him away with his little pinky...
Lol....
BT - Correct again!
July 11, 2007 - 21:54 ET by Free StinkerIndeed. :-)
The troll doesn't realize when it's in over it's pointy little head.
Ew, the scary Jack Bauer. R
July 11, 2007 - 22:25 ET by Space CowboyEw, the scary Jack Bauer. Right, some guy who uses the name of a fictional character on TV. Wow, I'm impressed. Oh yeah, and did I mention scared?
Did your mom mention it's t
July 11, 2007 - 22:28 ET by Free StinkerDid your mom mention it's time to put out the garbage?
At least it's summer and you don't have school tomorrow.
Free,LOL-Yeah, but he has an
July 11, 2007 - 22:38 ET by Dave RFree,
LOL-Yeah, but he has an electro-shock therapy treatment scheduled for 10:00 am.
You know, to bring him back down to Earth for a few days. Maybe.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
On screen names
July 11, 2007 - 23:17 ET by UnsaneNot that my partner-in-crime Jack Bauer needs me coming to his defense (as he defends himself quite well), but if the only thing about him you have to attack is his screen name, you lost the argument.
I picked the name of a band that opened for Slayer in one of my favorite concerts ever, also as a way to thinly veil myself to those who know me (as some have intruduced me, "This is ______ ________, he's insane." So what?)
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
So, lighten up, Unsane. You
July 11, 2007 - 23:48 ET by Space CowboySo, lighten up, Unsane. You've been reading too much Ayn Rand and going all serious on me. I tweaked JB for a little sport. Too bad he wasn't around to play.
On Ayn Rand and Thomas Sowell
July 12, 2007 - 00:03 ET by UnsaneYou should read some Ayn Rand. You might learn something, although I suspect with your Socialist attitudes, you'll have an aneurysm midway through reading Atlas Shrugged.
In fact, I also recommend Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. That reading might hurt you. A lot. And check out William I. Hitchcock's The Struggle For Europe. The section on the NHS will prove enlightening.
Finally, check out Virginia Postrel's The Future and its Enemies. Mrs. Postrel notes that her book is being translated into various Asian languages, but not into such languages as French. After reading the book, I understood why in a hurry. Mrs. Postrel wouldn't call you a Socialist: she would call you a stasist.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Last I remember, Cubans by
July 11, 2007 - 21:51 ET by JerryLast I remember, Cubans by the boatload were FLEEING paradise and sneaking into the United States. I don't recall any Americans risking their lives in rubber rafts to get to the liberal mecca of Cuba.
Oh yeah, Mexicans by the truckload are sneaking into this craphole country of ours too.
I guess these immigrants will have to be indoctrinated in our educational system for a few years before they realize just how terrible it is here and just how wonderful they really had it in their homeland.
When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).
Spaced-out Cow-pie,Why don't
July 11, 2007 - 22:10 ET by Dave RSpaced-out Cow-pie,
Why don't you just come clean and tell us the real reason you support socialized medicine in this country?
The sad but typical fact of the matter is, you and your liberal comrades are just too lazy and/or too stupid to take responsibility for you own health-care.
If you want to truly reform our healthcare system, then you should be supporting the idea of getting the federal government out of it altogether. It is no accident that the deeper the federal government gets involved, the worse the problems become.
This is the same incompetent federal government that cannot even process passports within a reasonable amount of time and can't seem to close our southern border, but you liberal idiots want to put this very same federal government in charge of our healtcare system.
Just how profoundly stupid can you be?
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
I think Mr. Gainor made his p
July 11, 2007 - 18:32 ET by contraryI think Mr. Gainor made his point in the previous regarding CNN not "towing the line" in regards to MM. I believe he was giving CNN kudos, and that is the point of this, albeit, unnecessary article. You are looking for some debate on US health care facts, and this probably isn't the place as most Newsbuster contributors deal with media bias. (hence the chirping)
Minor? That's why Moore nearl
July 11, 2007 - 22:29 ET by Dan GainorMinor? That's why Moore nearly burst one of his overworked blood vessels?
Moore's movie is just emulating Leni Riefenstahl and creating a piece of garbage propaganda that isn't worth the celluloid that it would take to make a better film. Gupta knows that and is critiquing it. He is not my favorite TV guy, but it's a novelty for the networks to criticize anything Moore does.
As for getting a job here, clearly I did so on merit, something the left has problems understanding. As for idle chatter, apparently you have more time for it than I. I actually have a job.
We are the only country that lacks a universal health care system because we are also the smartest country. The last thing we need is another government boondoggle like taxes, Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security. That's what Moore is selling. Another socialist state. I'd rather be left alone.
Personally, I don't care how the World Health Organization ranks anything. They have an agenda that isn't exactly pro-U.S.
And I don't crawl for anyone or, in your case, anything.
YES, minor. And Moore's rea
July 12, 2007 - 19:37 ET by Space CowboyYES, minor. And Moore's reaction could very well be because this is so picky.
How else do you characterize a $1400 difference in the annual per person health care in the U.S. - one (from Gupta) using three year old data and the other (from Moore) using a projection for this year? I mean, which would you pick? I’d go with the current projection and, if you asked this question to 100 people on the street, 95 of them probably would too.
To "fact check" Moore, Gupta pulled up some nitpicky alternative numbers. We could debate whether Gupta's chosen numbers were more or less correct than Moore's, but nothing supported the idea that Moore "fudged the facts" as was claimed. That was the point I raised in my first post and which you have YET to address. That’s why I question how you got a job here – and I still question it.
What is clear is that "fact checking Moore" means one can throw up something, anything, and use it to cast doubt on his integrity and fools like you will slurp it up like kool-aid.
KING: Dr. Gupta, what did he fudge?
GUPTA: Well, you know, we talked about the specific numbers with regards to Cuba per capita spending versus in the United States. And look --
KING: All right, let's get through that.
GUPTA: Well, I mean, he pulls $251 from this BBC unsourced report and then he -- and then he has this $7,000 number, which is a projected HHS number. It's not -- it's not an actual number yet.
The sum total of the “major” difference here is that Moore seems to have accepted as fact numbers that the BBC reported regarding per capita health care cost in Cuba – not an egregious journalistic sin as far as I can see – and used HHS numbers that are PROJECTED for this year. That’s what the “fudged” charge is based on.
Yep, this is some major shit, people. You're really on top of breaking news here, Gainor. I can see why they hired a hot shot like you.
"Gupta makes much ado
July 11, 2007 - 17:51 ET by BigB"Gupta makes much ado about nothing and embarrases himself in the process."
Yeah, that's just what happend...Wait, wasn't he the one with a blood vessle about to pop on his bloated forehead while throwing a hissy fit??? The one that immediately switched the subject to the War because he couldn't refute what the other guy said??? The one who bravely posted his rebuttal on his website(avoiding any kind of pesky questions)??? The one that started screeching about being libeled??(victim)...I'd be embarassed too....Jesus...
Maybe El Tub-o-Guts should have done something other than pee all over himself...like maybe standing up for himself and refuting what Gupta said. I wonder why he didn't start rattling off some facts..he made the damn movie didn't he???
I just love it when these people get caught lying....Bill Clinton/Chris Wallace- Get pissed and all red in the face, get that thumb working....Rosie/Hassebeck....get pissed, claim victimhood, GET FIRED, go insane....
HEH!!!
Now, this might sting just a little bit.....
You seem to be confusing the
July 11, 2007 - 18:11 ET by Space CowboyYou seem to be confusing the MM interview on Wolf Blitzer with the MM interview on Larry King. Moore appologized for some of what he said in the Blitzer interview yesterday on the Larry King program today - specfically he appologized for asking Blitzer to appologize for the failing of the MSM in the runup to the Iraq invasion.
And, if you watch Moore much, you should know by now that his schtick is all about being over the top. So, even when he appears to be going balistic, he's putting on an act. He was laughing and playing nice with Blitzer at the end yesterday.
And, what exactly is wrong with going balistic when you're faced with "facts" that are in dispute themselves that are being used to discredit your work? Gupta was using data that was years out of date and, even after having complete source information sent to him, failed to correct it. He even admitted on air to one mistake.
I do believe Moore should have agreed with the "free" health care point Gupta was making today, even if we ultimately pay much more than any other country through insurance costs and co-pays - not to mention the possibility that services that could save your life may be denied.
Nobility versus immorality
July 11, 2007 - 20:16 ET by Unsane...yet, instead of, say, starting a charity to help those in need (a noble act), you want the government to punish me and steal from me because you are too whiny and lazy to get your own damn doctor or to help others on your own(an immoral act).
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Why did he have to aplogize?
July 11, 2007 - 21:51 ET by Del DolemonteWhy did Moore have to apologize? After all, he's an Oscar (TM) winning "documentary" film maker.He also was given the best seat in the house at the 2004 Democrat Convention. Which is all one needs to know.
My mom, a lifelong Democrat who gave Clinton a pass, voted for Bush in 2004 solely because of that one image she saw of Lumpy sitting next to Jimmy "Desert 1" Carter in the royal box....
As I recall, it took at least 6 months after it came out for Moore's "F-9/11" to have its faults exposed, so I would think that if his new film has flaws, it will also take time for those to come out. The CNN medical guy was probably just going on first impressions, not actual detailed research.
This is a repeat from yesterd
July 11, 2007 - 17:56 ET by Clear thinkerThis is a repeat from yesterday, but I feel it necessary to enlighten some over and over again.
"Everyone in this country can get healthcare. If you don't beleive me just ask the 12-20 million illegals in this country".
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Really? can they get an artif
July 11, 2007 - 18:06 ET by bunnytoesReally? can they get an artificial shoulder implant? Please, do tell!
As I stated, ask one of the i
July 11, 2007 - 18:10 ET by Clear thinkerAs I stated, ask one of the illegals.
My guess would be that they can.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
A few years ago, a Mexican
July 11, 2007 - 22:26 ET by motherbeltA few years ago, a Mexican couple brought their teenage daughter here illegally in order to get a heart and lung transplant, and she did. At Duke University, no less. In fact, she had two, because a mistake was made and she got organs from someone with a different blood type. That's two sets of organs that could have gone to an American child. And US taxpayers are on the hook now for her immuno-suppressive drugs for the rest of her life.
So yeah, they can get transplants too.
Gee, Bunny,I've never heard o
July 11, 2007 - 18:11 ET by BlondeGee, Bunny,
I've never heard of an "artificial shoulder implant".
I know the orthopedic surgeon who invented the artificial hip, however.
Try again.
Blonde...Don't you need an ar
July 11, 2007 - 18:16 ET by Clear thinkerBlonde...
Don't you need an artificial shoulder to hold up an artificial head?
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Hmm, Clear, perhaps.I used to
July 11, 2007 - 18:20 ET by BlondeHmm, Clear, perhaps.
I used to have a friend that called her dad "Headless"...which always struck me as being pretty funny.
Well, in this day and age of islamofascists, maybe not any more.
Blonde...Yeah, those slimebal
July 11, 2007 - 18:25 ET by Clear thinkerBlonde...
Yeah, those slimeball Islamists take all the fun out of good old name calling.
Sort of related question.... you ever wonder why liberals don't take terrorists serious when they say they want to kill us all?
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Clear,Well, per Rosie et. al.
July 11, 2007 - 18:29 ET by BlondeClear,
Well, per Rosie et. al....all we have to do is talk to them, you know, try to understand where they're coming from...after all, they're parents too. Any reasonable person would see that, come on Clear!
I had someone say to me today that "wow, you're really, really conservative!" A compliment. I think he was kinda shocked...you know, most women are kind of liberally leaning (???). It was pretty funny.
Yeah I guess, but it would be
July 11, 2007 - 18:31 ET by Clear thinkerYeah I guess, but it would be a short discussion. They would talk, and we would gurggle as our throats were slit.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
And a proud conservative to b
July 11, 2007 - 18:32 ET by Clear thinkerAnd a proud conservative to boot!
You go girl.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Thanks, Clear.It was a very e
July 11, 2007 - 18:35 ET by BlondeThanks, Clear.
It was a very enjoyable moment in a pretty good day.
Speaking of "artificial
July 11, 2007 - 18:29 ET by Space CowboySpeaking of "artificial heads", doesn't it take one to present a minor disagreement between Moore and Gupta over costs per person in the U.S. and Cuba into a major argument?
What part of Moore and Gupta agreeing that our health care system is in need of reform did you people miss?
And, why is it that Gupta's use of three year old data on costs in the U.S. is more valid than Moore's use of current data that uses a "projection"? Which would you use . . . three yearl old data ($6000 per person) or more current data that projects the cost for this year ($7400 per person)?
They both scored some points and avoided some questions in this exchange. But, in general, they both agree to the larger point that the system needs to change. And, I agree with Moore. No way should we have a system that denies services to people based on the desire to pump up the bottom line. What part of "immoral" do you not get?
So Johnbo,What's your plan fo
July 11, 2007 - 18:31 ET by BlondeSo Johnbo,
What's your plan for healthcare reform? Since you seem to have all of the complaints about our current system down pat.
Universal healthcare would be
July 11, 2007 - 18:36 ET by Clear thinkerUniversal healthcare would be a disaster in this country. Good doctors would start their own private clinics for those that can afford their services and the rest of the country would get flunky doctors from overseas. Some of which could be working with the terrorists.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Yawn, this is an argument?We
July 11, 2007 - 18:43 ET by Space CowboyYawn, this is an argument?
We would end up with a two-tier system probably similar to Great Britian. Universal coverage for everyone and a private system for those who wanted to pay for it. Works for them and could work for us.
As for the terrorists point you make, it's always possible that ANYONE from another country is a terrorist. Maybe we should isolate ourselves completely. At any rate, it's no reason to deny a health care system that provides the efficiency already proven in Medicare, removes the heavy expenses caused by the profit motive of the insurance companies (that cause us to have the most expensive health care costs in the world - BY DOUBLE), and relieves private business of the burden of health care that keeps them from being competitive.
Space Cadet...No, my point wa
July 11, 2007 - 18:47 ET by Clear thinkerSpace Cadet...
No, my point was..... if you can't afford private doctors you will get sub-standard care. We have the best healthcare in the world, we should keep it that way.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
Well, Queer thinker, my advis
July 11, 2007 - 19:02 ET by Space CowboyWell, Queer thinker, my advise to you is, "Don't get sick" and, if you do, good luck getting the services you paid for. You'll need it. And, oh yeah, make sure you read the fine print in your health insurance contract.
And, oh yeah, how is it that we rank down with the third world countries in overall quality of our health care system? Just wondering.
Space Cadet...First, the quee
July 11, 2007 - 19:23 ET by Clear thinkerSpace Cadet...
First, the queer comment won't work for me as I am an admitted homophobic. Secondly, our healthcare has saved my wifes life more than once, and I have NEVER been turned down for healthcare even when I was poor.
BTW... You are using stats that come from an org that works for the UN, and there has never been any evidence that would lead me to trust the UN. I will continue to support the best healthcare in the world, you should to.
The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.
"Well, Queer thinker,
July 11, 2007 - 20:38 ET by ckc1227"Well, Queer thinker, my advise to you is, "Don't get sick" and, if you do, good luck getting the services you paid for."
Please, sir, can we have another failry tale? We like fairy tales. They're funny.
"And, oh yeah, how is it that we rank down with the third world
countries in overall quality of our health care system? Just wondering."
The answer to that should be pretty obvious. It's like saying Michael Jordan was no better at basketball than Michael Jackson. Anyone who says it has an obvious agenda; anyone who believes it has an obvious mental defect.
Still, since you clearly believe it, which third world country will you be trying your damndest to get into for medical care the next time you suffer a major health crisis? Mexico? Cuba?
I am actually a support
July 11, 2007 - 18:53 ET by shawn228I am actually a supporter of a Social Heathcare plan. I do not think it would work in this country though. Canada's population is not even the size of California and it does not have to pay for its military with big brother living next door. Britians population is 52 million and is dwarfed by the 300 million in the United States. The US has to use our tax money to finance two wars, pay social security, war on drugs, social security medicare, homeland security.....etc. We also have a 9 trillion dollar debt to pay off.
Those are valid points. How
July 11, 2007 - 19:07 ET by Space CowboyThose are valid points.
However, we are paying TWICE the per-person costs of the next closest industrial country, Switzerland. Could it be the result of substancial amounts going into profits for the insurance companies? So, we're ALREADY paying more than anyone else only we're paying it to support gold-plated retirement plans for HMO execs. If we take them out completely, we lower our costs - just like everyone else.
A social healthcare plan wo
July 11, 2007 - 19:09 ET by mostlymoderateA social healthcare plan would not work in this country unless we demand that people work "X" amount of years before attaining qualification. In other words, illegal border crossing from Mexico would wreak havoc on a social healthcare program. Oh, and people that choose NOT to work, like the New Orleans crowd after Katrina, would have to be exempt from qualifying too. Think about it, America has too many freeloaders that would make social healthcare impossible.
Not to mention Canada and Bri
July 11, 2007 - 19:15 ET by UnsaneNot to mention Canada and Britain have completely given up.
They are Going Nowhere and want to Go Nowhere. The United States, as well as East Asia, are poised to pass the Nanny States of Europe, and the Nanny State north of us, right by. Britain's health care system is SO GREAT that a private health care industry has sprung up, due to public discontent in the NHS. The Netherlands, Italy, and France all report the same phenomenon.
Tell me, shawn, what medical advances has Canada accomplished since 1968? And stay focused. Medical advances only.
Isn't it amazing? The government cannot educate its children, but yet, people want them to take over the medical industry.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Good Morning Unsane, very iro
July 12, 2007 - 10:02 ET by shawn228Good Morning Unsane, very ironic, I am responding to your post today from beautiful Vancouver BC. We have done this dance too many times Unsane, why do you insist on beating a dead horse? You don't need a powerful military or credit for medical advances to be a country going somewhere.
Going off topic, Not going to mention the dreaded GW conspiricy, but it was almost 110 degrees here, don't ever remember it being this hot. Yuch, I am staying with family members so no AC.
No. Sorry
July 12, 2007 - 10:29 ET by UnsaneSorry, shawn, but history completely contradicts you. In order to be going somewhere, you need to be making advances, and you should have a powerful military to make your will known. It isn't my fault that you and the Canadians you are surrounded with are so fearful of such things as "the future" and "risk" that they spend (or in your case, desperately want to spend) vast quantities of other people's money in order to eliminate risk, or any fear of the future.
When you do that, instead of letting people free to risk-take on their own and advance themselves, (and society and then the world), you hit the road to Nowhere. I'll keep beating that dead horse until you consult history and see what I'm talking about.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Unsane
July 12, 2007 - 13:24 ET by shawn228I am responding to you using the internet Unsane. Does it matter that a Canadian invented it when it was clearly Al Gore?:-)
Canadians are extremely fortunate that they don't need to spend on their military because they live beside the Stars and Bars. I'm not talking about a Al Queda kind of attack but If you think it about it what country would want to attack Canada? Has Canada asked us to protect them before?
I know what your views are, and you know mine. Why can't you accept to agree to disagree on this topic? Your constant need to get in the last word to any poster is really amazing. I'm off for my first day off site seeing soon. Have a good day:)
Invention of the Internet
July 12, 2007 - 13:30 ET by dagdaI thought the Internet was invented by military-industrial types trying to communicate with each other. WWW was a Canadian, I think.
Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower
I thought the Internet was in
July 12, 2007 - 14:24 ET by shawn228I thought the Internet was invented by military-industrial types trying to communicate with each other. WWW was a Canadian, I think.
I realize a Canadian did not invent the internet and It was not Al Gore. I was just trying to point out that is nice getting credit for inventing things, but it does not make you better than anybody else.
More admirable perhaps
July 12, 2007 - 14:30 ET by dagdaI find people who invent things admirable. Not sure that I think they are better than most, except I would have to say that a Leonardo Da Vinci or a Les Paul are in a seperate category. They are better than everybody else.
Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower
dagda
July 12, 2007 - 14:41 ET by shawn228Or Hugh Hefner ;-)
Shawn
July 12, 2007 - 14:43 ET by dagdaHeff is luckier, not better than I am. :)
Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower
It doesn't make you better th
July 13, 2007 - 00:24 ET by UnsaneIt doesn't make you better than anyone else? I would say it does. For example, Mozart is a better composer than I can hope to be...until that day when I can compose entire symphonies in my head.
But to go back to the issue of societies: it actually says a lot for your society/civilization when your citizens continually crank out inventions and innovations, one after another after another, while no one else manages to do the same. I know Canada has some smart people: why haven't they contributed anything to medical science since 1968? Could it be that it has less to do with their people and more to do with an enervating system that discourages growth and innovation in favor of coddling stability?
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
You are right Mozart is a muc
July 13, 2007 - 00:41 ET by shawn228You are right Mozart is a much better composer than you will ever be, just like OJ Simpson is a better running back than I will ever be, but that does not make him a better person than me.
I would think it is the results of your team rather than individual effort that matters. Randy Moss is one of the best wide receivers in history, but the Raiders as a team were crappy. Remember the NY Yankees for many years were crappy in the nineties? No one knew who Derek Jeter was. That Yankee team in the Ninties did not have one superstar"at the time" they just played great as a team and had one of the best season ever. Same goes for Canada, not much Individualism, but lots of surpluss in their budget every year.
Risk Taking, shockingly is GOOD
July 13, 2007 - 01:28 ET by UnsaneAnd Alberta has NO debt. At all. So what? (There is a Canadian debt, and the provinces CONSTANTLY WHINE to Ottawa for more money to coddle and baby their people.)
And another dirty little secret? Why those surpluses you brag about? Not spending on power projection. (And Canadians wonder why they never ever matter in the world and never will.) They know that if ANYTHING goes wrong in Canada, they can always run crying to the United States. (Of course, that's gonna change too, as PM Harper's government wisely decided to upgrade airlift capabilities by buying 8 C-17s.)
Deal with it: the country you so adore wants to be completely stable and not EVER EVER EVER take ANY...RISKS (gasp!!!!), and as such, it is Going Nowhere. Not going down the toilet, not going down the drain...but sure as all hell never ever mentioned in the same breath as China, India, Japan, the United States...nations full of people who take risks, even if that means incurring a little debt now and then...and if you don't want to be mentioned in the same breath as China and the United States, that is fine, if your goal as a society is to Go Absolutely Nowhere. But those are the nations that are not written about centuries later. We don't care about what Albania did (or rather, didn't do) during the 1500s...we sure as all hell care about what Britain, Spain, France and the Netherlands were doing. Why? It wasn't because Queen Elizabeth I was constantly worried about how happy the people were and running surpluses, that's for sure.
Take Boeing for example. They risked the entire company and THEN some on the 747 being successful. The rest is history. Now, if the CEO back then said "WAAAHHHHH!!! We cannot take any risks!!! I don't want any debt!!", the world would be deprived of one of the greatest advancements in aviation history and one of the most awesome planes ever designed.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
they live beside the Stars an
July 12, 2007 - 14:49 ET by Free Stinkerthey live beside the Stars and Bars
Don't you mean The Stars and Stripes ? ;-)
Sorry Free, Stars and Bars re
July 12, 2007 - 15:02 ET by shawn228Sorry Free, Stars and Bars refers more to the confederate flag. Your not going to pull a Simple and Plain on me are you?
Shawn
July 12, 2007 - 15:14 ET by Free StinkerYour not going to pull a Simple and Plain on me are you?
Nah, we save that stuff for trolls. ;-)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in on
FreeStinker
July 13, 2007 - 00:09 ET by shawn228Awww.......thx Free thats the nicest thing you ever said to me.
Ending not with a bang but a whimper, or rather, a whine
July 13, 2007 - 00:19 ET by UnsaneWhat a whiny final paragraph. And no, I want MEDICAL advances. Seeing as the Canadians gave up on that around 1968, I expect to see an extremely short list.
This little excerpt is just for you and all the whiners and complainers like Space Cowboy who whine that America is a horrible, evil place because we aren't all getting pampered by the Nanny State:
From a review of Unhappily Better Off by Virginia Postrel:
“He (the author of the book, Mr. Easterbrook) observes that "Just two generations ago it was almost everybody, rather than 14 percent, who lacked health insurance - only the wealthy knew protection against ru