More Moore: Gupta Takes on ‘SiCKO’ Director on ‘Larry King Live’

Photo of Dan Gainor.
  • Bookmark and Share

Even CNN can swallow only so much of the Michael Moore, socialized-medicine Kool-Aid.

Just when you thought all hope was lost, CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta took on Moore on the July 10 “Larry King Live.” Gupta criticized inaccuracies in the data used in Moore pro-universal health care flick “SiCKO.”

Moore had lost his cool the day before on “The Situation Room” with Wolf Blitzer because a report by Gupta claimed Moore had “fudged” some his numbers. Those numbers were primarily data about the costs of health care for Cubans, even though Gupta had committed his own blunder with one of the numbers.

Gupta accused Moore of “cherry picking” certain data from various reports on health care to substantiate his case and said Moore’s lack of consistency could have consequences on the drive for socialized care. “It makes it very hard to advance the argument if you're not getting the numbers right,” Gupta said.

Moore also accused Gupta of ignoring that one of his sources had donated money to various Republican candidates. Ironically, Gupta and Moore have one thing in common – they both have donated money to political candidates, but all to Democrats in recent elections.


Comments Policy

All comments are owned by whoever posted them and are subject to our terms of use. They should not be assumed to represent the views of NewsBusters.

Viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Insert "Sounds like Moore was

Insert "Sounds like Moore was swift-boated" joke here.

Be sure to get your daily Fred Thompson Fact!

This is OT, but is anyone e

This is OT, but is anyone else having site trouble? Whenever I hit "post comment" or "login", I get a blank page with the notation "done" at the bottom, as if the page had loaded. I have to use my NB bookmark and start all over to get back to the page.

Motherbelt...Me tooThe only t

Motherbelt...Me too

The only thing you should feel when shooting insurgents is recoil.

I'm having the same trouble.

I'm having the same trouble. 

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war"  - Shakespeare

OK so it's not me LOL. Hop

OK so it's not me LOL. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

At least our posts make it th

At least our posts make it through despite the snafu. 

I get it too.

Is this part of the fairness doctrine?

Maybe - could Reid and co., h

Maybe - could Reid and co., have stolen the Rove weather machine and alterd it to creat blank pages on a media bias blog? Seems fair to me.

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V

Hypocrisy

Funny how every Moore movie is an in-kind contribution to the DNC and MM is worried that ONE of Gupta's sources donates to Republicans.

WOW!

Chutzpah often as not actua

Chutzpah often as not actually works; and in chess, poker, and politics the best defense is usually simply a persistently-good offense. Michael Moore is nothing if not persistently-offended by the news media despite their fawning bias FOR his propaganda-films, in most cases. "Hypo-crazy" chutzpah of this level, however, is rare...Good observation/catch.
JMR

What I found more illustrativ

What I found more illustrative of Moore's motives was when Wolf asked permission to continue the interview on videotape with Moore and show it  later in the broadcast.  Moore practically choked on his own saliva; he would NOT allow anyone to film him if he didn't have complete control over the editing.  He practically called Wolf a liar when Wolf promised to show the tape unedited. So much for trust in the Wide World of Michael Moore.

Moore understands very well t

Moore understands very well the power of editing, because he's a professional film editor who has extracted quotes out of context to humiliate his subject.

I think what's getting Moore this time around is that some MSM outlets are actually scrutinizing the claims in his film, and he's chaffing under the scrutiny.  Add to that, his film will probably earn considerably less than Fahrenheit 911; maybe he's trying to squeeze out a little more publicity for it through controversy..

Racial slur?

Anyone else catch Moore mocking Dr. Gupta's last name by saying it with an exaggerated Indian accent during his interview with Wolf?

Where's the sensitivity police now?

People who do that are insecu

People who do that are insecure.

By the way, I was shocked to see Larry King actually scold Lumpy at one point last night. He deserved it, though.

Idiot

Michael Moore is the biggest load of crap. People who are part of systems with socialized medicine not only pay way higher taxes, they are forced to wait months at a time for appointments or for procedures such as surgeries. I have spoken to Canadians who have been part of the American and Canadian system, and guess which one they prefer??

I'm frustrated that, after li

I'm frustrated that, after listening to this discussion both yesterday and today, I'm still waiting to hear exactly what facts Gupta thinks Moore fudged.  All of this hoopla is about disagreements over the amount spent per person in Cuba and the U.S.?  It's literally a tempest in a teapot.  But, hey, whatever it takes to get the usual Pavlovian response to the mere mention of Michael Moore's name on NewsBusters.

You even mention that Gupta had to admit to being wrong about the amount per person spent in Cuba but still manage to make this sound like some kind of MM smackdown.  Earth to NewsBusters, your blatant bias is showing.

It's important to point out that, even though Gupta is in general agreement with Moore's overall take on our health care system, his claim that facts are wrong in "Sicko" will be what people take away from this little dustup. You did notice that he was in agreement with Moore that the system is a in dire need of reform?  You somehow forgot to point that out.

Larry King did an admirable job but was still failed to get a precise focus on Moore and Gupta's differences unless the minor quible about the ranking of the U.S. vs. Cuba and the amount spent per person by both Cuba and the U.S. was the sum total of the debate. That was it? That's all Gupta has to complain about that Moore got "wrong"?  And, then he has to actually correct himself about his own Cuba data?  And, he had been emailed all of Moore's supporting data weeks ago and still insisted on using per person figures for the U.S. that are almost three years old. 

This could whole episode could have acturately been labeled "Gupta makes much ado about nothing and embarrases himself in the process."  But leave it to NewsBusters to serve up another distortion of Moore and his movie for the slobering fools they cater to. 

I'm frustrated that this little quibble has overshadowed the really important issues and allowed kool-aid drinking sychopants like Dan Gainor to try and discredit "Sicko" with a  pointless debate over which source of data is more accurate - even though the difference between the amounts in dispute is negligable and the two debaters are in general agreement. 

Must be a slow news day at NewsBusters.

Mikey! Is that you? Have anot

Mikey! Is that you? Have another cheeseburger.

Anyone who has seen "SiC

Anyone who has seen "SiCKO" could discredit it because it is a piece of one-sided trash propaganda. And I am no one's sychophant, especially not Gupta's. He's just finally made a few decent points here. Any time that happens, even CNN deserves a modicum of credit.

And even a 2-year-old could follow both of our blog posts on this issue to larger stories on the BMI Web site for further info. You are at least 2, right?

SC, if that is the best you've got, I suggest you crawl back to Democratic Underground where your ilk get their jollies.

Um, Dan, you seemed to have m

Um, Dan, you seemed to have missed my point - just like you missed the fact that Gupta and Moore are in general agreement that the health care system in this country is in dire need of reform and that the differences they have are minor.  If you can't address those simple and straight-forward points, I'm afraid it's you that needs to crawl off somewhere.  I mean, how in the world did you get a job here?

So, you've got the floor.  You're the man with the plan who's put up this post for some reason, so let's have the answers: are we wasting time in idle chatter about nothing here or is there some glaring distortion that you want to point out that supports Gupta's claim of "fudging" besides the different cost per person he claims for the U.S. and Cuban health care systems?  (Oops, sorry.  He had to retract his Cuban numbers.  Don't you hate it when that happens?)  Or, is that enough for you to declare a Gupta "smackdown"?

Or, maybe you want to take a different approach and explain to us why we're the only developed country that lacks a universal health care system, or why we spend more thanTWICE the per-person amount of the next closest country, Switzerland?  Or why we rank 35th in the World Health Organization's rankings of health care quality?  Or how anyone with a glimmer of compassion can stand for HMO's that have whole departments devoted to denying health care to people that have paid for it?

I await with bated breath.  Address the point or crawl - your choice.

(chirp, chirp)Nothing but cri

(chirp, chirp)

Nothing but cricket noises here.

Crickets getting stomped on, lazy boy

This country has such horrible, scummy health care that it continues to clean house in the Nobel Prize Medicine category (with few exceptions) since at least the 1970s. 

This country has such horrible, scummy health care that it is on the forefront of the frontier of medical science.  I would be willing to bet that the city of Houston ALONE has done more to advance medical science over the past decade than any of your beloved Nanny States has done in the past 40. 

This country has such horrible, scummy health care that Silvio Berlusconi went to that massive Italian metropolis of Cleveland for his "free" health care.  Oh, what's that?  He went to Cleveland even though he had to PAY for it?  Why, that cannot be!!!  Italy is supposed to have FREE QUALITY HEALTH CARE!!!

To me, it's not much of a coincidence that France last got a Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1980. 

Now, stop being lazy, stop trying to steal from me, and get your own damn doctor.

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

And anyone who believes sta

And anyone who believes statistics produced by any UN agency, really does deserve to be sent to a Cuban hospital for their next major health problem.

And not one of those nice hospitals frequented by Fidel Castro and the gang, but one of the dumps open to the average Cuban peasant.

You've seen the spoof. Now see the spoof of the spoof on YouTube: The Clintpranos: Bada Bong

So Jack, don't you have some

So Jack, don't you have some bad evil-doers/terrorists to corral and torture . . . or something. 

I'm surprised you find time to blog on subjects you don't seem to know a lick about with arguments that are as worthless as so much spit in the ociean.

Who is collecting tolls at

Who is collecting tolls at your bridge?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in one building.

Humorous isn't it Free?Jack c

Humorous isn't it Free?

Jack could wipe him away with his little pinky...

Lol....

BT - Correct again!

Indeed. :-)

The troll doesn't realize when it's in over it's pointy little head.

Ew, the scary Jack Bauer.  R

Ew, the scary Jack Bauer.  Right, some guy who uses the name of a fictional character on TV.  Wow, I'm impressed.  Oh yeah, and did I mention scared? 

Did your mom mention it's t

Did your mom mention it's time to put out the garbage?

At least it's summer and you don't have school tomorrow.

Free,LOL-Yeah, but he has an

Free,

LOL-Yeah, but he has an electro-shock therapy treatment scheduled for 10:00 am.

You know, to bring him back down to Earth for a few days. Maybe.

Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.

On screen names

Not that my partner-in-crime Jack Bauer needs me coming to his defense (as he defends himself quite well), but if the only thing about him you have to attack is his screen name, you lost the argument.

I picked the name of a band that opened for Slayer in one of my favorite concerts ever, also as a way to thinly veil myself to those who know me (as some have intruduced me, "This is ______ ________, he's insane."  So what?)

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

So, lighten up, Unsane.  You

So, lighten up, Unsane.  You've been reading too much Ayn Rand and going all serious on me.  I tweaked JB for a little sport.  Too bad he wasn't around to play.

On Ayn Rand and Thomas Sowell

You should read some Ayn Rand.  You might learn something, although I suspect with your Socialist attitudes, you'll have an aneurysm midway through reading Atlas Shrugged

In fact, I also recommend Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. That reading might hurt you. A lot.  And check out William I. Hitchcock's The Struggle For Europe.  The section on the NHS will prove enlightening. 

Finally, check out Virginia Postrel's The Future and its Enemies.  Mrs. Postrel notes that her book is being translated into various Asian languages, but not into such languages as French.  After reading the book, I understood why in a hurry.  Mrs. Postrel wouldn't call you a Socialist: she would call you a stasist.

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Last I remember, Cubans by

Last I remember, Cubans by the boatload were FLEEING paradise and sneaking into the United States. I don't recall any Americans risking their lives in rubber rafts to get to the liberal mecca of Cuba.

Oh yeah, Mexicans by the truckload are sneaking into this craphole country of ours too.

I guess these immigrants will have to be indoctrinated in our educational system for a few years before they realize just how terrible it is here and just how wonderful they really had it in their homeland.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Spaced-out Cow-pie,Why don't

Spaced-out Cow-pie,

Why don't you just come clean and tell us the real reason you support socialized medicine in this country?

The sad but typical fact of the matter is, you and your liberal comrades are just too lazy and/or too stupid to take responsibility for you own health-care.

If you want to truly reform our healthcare system, then you should be supporting the idea of getting the federal government out of it altogether. It is no accident that the deeper the federal government gets involved, the worse the problems become.

This is the same incompetent federal government that cannot even process passports within a reasonable amount of time and can't seem to close our southern border, but you liberal idiots want to put this very same federal government in charge of our healtcare system.

Just how profoundly stupid can you be?

Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.

I think Mr. Gainor made his p

I think Mr. Gainor made his point in the previous regarding CNN not "towing the line" in regards to MM. I believe he was giving CNN kudos, and that is the point of this, albeit, unnecessary article. You are looking for some debate on US health care facts, and this probably isn't the place as most Newsbuster contributors deal with media bias. (hence the chirping)

Minor? That's why Moore nearl

Minor? That's why Moore nearly burst one of his overworked blood vessels?

Moore's movie is just emulating Leni Riefenstahl and creating a piece of garbage propaganda that isn't worth the celluloid that it would take to make a better film. Gupta knows that and is critiquing it. He is not my favorite TV guy, but it's a novelty for the networks to criticize anything Moore does.

As for getting a job here, clearly I did so on merit, something the left has problems understanding. As for idle chatter, apparently you have more time for it than I. I actually have a job.

We are the only country that lacks a universal health care system because we are also the smartest country. The last thing we need is another government boondoggle like taxes, Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security. That's what Moore is selling. Another socialist state. I'd rather be left alone.

Personally, I don't care how the World Health Organization ranks anything. They have an agenda that isn't exactly pro-U.S.

And I don't crawl for anyone or, in your case, anything.

YES, minor.  And Moore's rea

YES, minor.  And Moore's reaction could very well be because this is so picky.

How else do you characterize a $1400 difference in the annual per person health care in the U.S. - one (from Gupta) using three year old data and the other (from Moore) using a projection for this year?  I mean, which would you pick?  I’d go with the current projection and, if you asked this question to 100 people on the street, 95 of them probably would too.

To "fact check" Moore, Gupta pulled up some nitpicky alternative numbers. We could debate whether Gupta's chosen numbers were more or less correct than Moore's, but nothing supported the idea that Moore "fudged the facts" as was claimed.  That was the point I raised in my first post and which you have YET to address.  That’s why I question how you got a job here – and I still question it.

What is clear is that "fact checking Moore" means one can throw up something, anything, and use it to cast doubt on his integrity and fools like you will slurp it up like kool-aid. 

KING: Dr. Gupta, what did he fudge?

GUPTA: Well, you know, we talked about the specific numbers with regards to Cuba per capita spending versus in the United States. And look --

KING: All right, let's get through that.

GUPTA: Well, I mean, he pulls $251 from this BBC unsourced report and then he -- and then he has this $7,000 number, which is a projected HHS number. It's not -- it's not an actual number yet.

The sum total of the “major” difference here is that Moore seems to have accepted as fact numbers that the BBC reported regarding per capita health care cost in Cuba – not an egregious journalistic sin as far as I can see – and used HHS numbers that are PROJECTED for this year.  That’s what the “fudged” charge is based on.

Yep, this is some major shit, people.  You're really on top of breaking news here, Gainor.  I can see why they hired a hot shot like you.

"Gupta makes much ado

"Gupta makes much ado about nothing and embarrases himself in the process."

Yeah, that's just what happend...Wait, wasn't he the one with a blood vessle about to pop on his bloated forehead while throwing a hissy fit??? The one that immediately switched the subject to the War because he couldn't refute what the other guy said??? The one who bravely posted his rebuttal on his website(avoiding any kind of pesky questions)??? The one that started screeching about being libeled??(victim)...I'd be embarassed too....Jesus...

Maybe El Tub-o-Guts should have done something other than pee all over himself...like maybe standing up for himself and refuting what Gupta said. I wonder why he didn't start rattling off some facts..he made the damn movie didn't he???

I just love it when these people get caught lying....Bill Clinton/Chris Wallace- Get pissed and all red in the face, get that thumb working....Rosie/Hassebeck....get pissed, claim victimhood, GET FIRED, go insane....

HEH!!!


Now, this might sting just a little bit.....

You seem to be confusing the

You seem to be confusing the MM interview on Wolf Blitzer with the MM interview on Larry King.  Moore appologized for some of what he said in the Blitzer interview yesterday on the Larry King program today - specfically he appologized for asking Blitzer to appologize for the failing of the MSM in the runup to the Iraq invasion. 

And, if you watch Moore much, you should know by now that his schtick is all about being over the top.  So, even when he appears to be going balistic, he's putting on an act.  He was laughing and playing nice with Blitzer at the end yesterday.

And, what exactly is wrong with going balistic when you're faced with "facts" that are in dispute themselves that are being used to discredit your work?  Gupta was using data that was years out of date and, even after having complete source information sent to him, failed to correct it.  He even admitted on air to one mistake.

I do  believe Moore should have agreed with the "free" health care point Gupta was making today, even if we ultimately pay much more than any  other country through insurance costs and co-pays - not to mention the possibility that services that could save your life may be denied.

Nobility versus immorality

...yet, instead of, say, starting a charity to help those in need (a noble act), you want the government to punish me and steal from me because you are too whiny and lazy to get your own damn doctor or to help others on your own(an immoral act). 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Why did he have to aplogize?

Why did Moore have to apologize? After all, he's an Oscar (TM) winning "documentary" film maker.He also was given the best seat in the house at the 2004 Democrat Convention. Which is all one needs to know.

My mom, a lifelong Democrat who gave Clinton a pass, voted for Bush in 2004 solely because of that one image she saw of Lumpy sitting next to Jimmy "Desert 1" Carter in the royal box....

As I recall, it took at least 6 months after it came out for Moore's "F-9/11" to have its faults exposed, so I would think that if his new film has flaws, it will also take time for those to come out. The CNN medical guy was probably just going on first impressions, not actual detailed research.

This is a repeat from yesterd

This is a repeat from yesterday, but I feel it necessary to enlighten some over and over again.

"Everyone in this country can get healthcare. If you don't beleive me just ask the 12-20 million illegals in this country".

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Really? can they get an artif

Really? can they get an artificial shoulder implant? Please, do tell!

As I stated, ask one of the i

As I stated, ask one of the illegals.

My guess would be that they can.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

A few years ago, a Mexican

A few years ago, a Mexican couple brought their teenage daughter here illegally in order to get a heart and lung transplant, and she did. At Duke University, no less. In fact, she had two, because a mistake was made and she got organs from someone with a different blood type. That's two sets of organs that could have gone to an American child. And US taxpayers are on the hook now for her immuno-suppressive drugs for the rest of her life.

So yeah, they can get transplants too.

Gee, Bunny,I've never heard o

Gee, Bunny,

I've never heard of an "artificial shoulder implant".

I know the orthopedic surgeon who invented the artificial hip, however.

Try again.

Blonde...Don't you need an ar

Blonde...

Don't you need an artificial shoulder to hold up an artificial head?

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Hmm, Clear, perhaps.I used to

Hmm, Clear, perhaps.

I used to have a friend that called her dad "Headless"...which always struck me as being pretty funny.

Well, in this day and age of islamofascists, maybe not any more.

Blonde...Yeah, those slimebal

Blonde...

Yeah, those slimeball Islamists take all the fun out of good old name calling.

Sort of related question.... you ever wonder why liberals don't take terrorists serious when they say they want to kill us all?

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Clear,Well, per Rosie et. al.

Clear,

Well, per Rosie et. al....all we have to do is talk to them, you know, try to understand where they're coming from...after all, they're parents too.  Any reasonable person would see that, come on Clear!

I had someone say to me today that "wow, you're really, really conservative!"  A compliment.  I think he was kinda shocked...you know, most women are kind of liberally leaning (???).   It was pretty funny.

Yeah I guess, but it would be

Yeah I guess, but it would be a short discussion. They would talk, and we would gurggle as our throats were slit.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

And a proud conservative to b

And a proud conservative to boot!

You go girl.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Thanks, Clear.It was a very e

Thanks, Clear.

It was a very enjoyable moment in a pretty good day.

Speaking of "artificial

Speaking of "artificial heads", doesn't it take one to present a minor disagreement between Moore and Gupta over costs per person in the U.S. and Cuba into a major argument?

What part of Moore and Gupta agreeing that our health care system is in need of reform did you people miss?

And, why is it that Gupta's use of three year old data on costs in the U.S. is more valid than Moore's use of current data that uses a "projection"?  Which would you use . . . three yearl old data ($6000 per person) or more current data that projects the cost for this year ($7400 per person)?

They both scored some points and avoided some questions in this exchange.  But, in general, they both agree to the larger point that the system needs to change.  And, I agree with Moore.  No way should we have a system that denies services to people based on the desire to pump up the bottom line.  What part of "immoral" do you not get?

So Johnbo,What's your plan fo

So Johnbo,

What's your plan for healthcare reform?  Since you seem to have all of the complaints about our current system down pat.

Universal healthcare would be

Universal healthcare would be a disaster in this country. Good doctors would start their own private clinics for those that can afford their services and the rest of the country would get flunky doctors from overseas. Some of which could be working with the terrorists.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Yawn, this is an argument?We

Yawn, this is an argument?

We would end up with a two-tier system probably similar to Great Britian.  Universal coverage for everyone and a private system for those who wanted to pay for it.  Works for them and could work for us.

As for the terrorists point you make, it's always possible that ANYONE from another country is a terrorist.  Maybe we should isolate ourselves completely.  At any rate, it's no reason to deny a health care system that provides the efficiency already proven in Medicare, removes the heavy expenses caused by the profit motive of the insurance companies (that cause us to have the most expensive health care costs in the world - BY DOUBLE), and relieves private business of the burden of health care that keeps them from being competitive.

Space Cadet...No, my point wa

Space Cadet...

No, my point was..... if you can't afford private doctors you will get sub-standard care. We have the best healthcare in the world, we should keep it that way.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Well, Queer thinker, my advis

Well, Queer thinker, my advise to you is, "Don't get sick" and, if you do, good luck getting the services you paid for. You'll need it.   And, oh yeah, make sure you read the fine print in your health insurance contract.

And, oh yeah, how is it that we rank down with the third world countries in overall quality of our health care system?  Just wondering.

Space Cadet...First, the quee

Space Cadet...

First, the queer comment won't work for me as I am an admitted homophobic. Secondly, our healthcare has saved my wifes life more than once, and I have NEVER been turned down for healthcare even when I was poor.

BTW... You are using stats that come from an org that works for the UN, and there has never been any evidence that would lead me to trust the UN. I will continue to support the best healthcare in the world, you should to.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

"Well, Queer thinker,

"Well, Queer thinker, my advise to you is, "Don't get sick" and, if you do, good luck getting the services you paid for."

Please, sir, can we have another failry tale? We like fairy tales. They're funny.

"And, oh yeah, how is it that we rank down with the third world
countries in overall quality of our health care system? Just wondering."

The answer to that should be pretty obvious. It's like saying Michael Jordan was no better at basketball than Michael Jackson. Anyone who says it has an obvious agenda; anyone who believes it has an obvious mental defect.

Still, since you clearly believe it, which third world country will you be trying your damndest to get into for medical care the next time you suffer a major health crisis? Mexico? Cuba?

I am actually a support

I am actually a supporter of a Social Heathcare plan. I do not think it would work in this country though. Canada's population is not even the size of California and it does not have to pay for its military with big brother living next door. Britians population is 52 million and is dwarfed by the 300 million in the United States. The US has to use our tax money to finance two wars, pay social security, war on drugs, social security medicare, homeland security.....etc. We also have a 9 trillion dollar debt to pay off.

Those are valid points.  How

Those are valid points. 

However, we are paying TWICE the per-person costs of the next closest industrial country, Switzerland.  Could it be the result of substancial amounts going into profits for the insurance companies?  So, we're ALREADY paying more than anyone else only we're paying it to support gold-plated retirement plans for HMO execs.  If we take them out completely, we lower our costs - just like everyone else.

A social healthcare plan wo

A social healthcare plan would not work in this country unless we demand that people work "X" amount of years before attaining qualification. In other words, illegal border crossing from Mexico would wreak havoc on a social healthcare program. Oh, and people that choose NOT to work, like the New Orleans crowd after Katrina, would have to be exempt from qualifying too. Think about it, America has too many freeloaders that would make social healthcare impossible.

Not to mention Canada and Bri

Not to mention Canada and Britain have completely given up.

They are Going Nowhere and want to Go Nowhere.  The United States, as well as East Asia, are poised to pass the Nanny States of Europe, and the Nanny State north of us, right by.  Britain's health care system is SO GREAT that a private health care industry has sprung up, due to public discontent in the NHS.  The Netherlands, Italy, and France all report the same phenomenon.

Tell me, shawn, what medical advances has Canada accomplished since 1968?  And stay focused.  Medical advances only. 

Isn't it amazing?  The government cannot educate its children, but yet, people want them to take over the medical industry.

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Good Morning Unsane, very iro

Good Morning Unsane, very ironic, I am responding to your post today from beautiful Vancouver BC. We have done this dance too many times Unsane, why do you insist on beating a dead horse? You don't need a powerful military or credit for medical advances to be a country going somewhere.

Going off topic,  Not going to mention the dreaded GW conspiricy, but it was almost 110 degrees here, don't ever remember it being this hot. Yuch, I am staying with family members so no AC.

No. Sorry

Sorry, shawn, but history completely contradicts you.  In order to be going somewhere, you need to be making advances, and you should have a powerful military to make your will known.  It isn't my fault that you and the Canadians you are surrounded with are so fearful of such things as "the future" and "risk" that they spend (or in your case, desperately want to spend) vast quantities of other people's money in order to eliminate risk, or any fear of the future. 

When you do that, instead of letting people free to risk-take on their own and advance themselves, (and society and then the world), you hit the road to Nowhere.  I'll keep beating that dead horse until you consult history and see what I'm talking about. 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Unsane

I am responding to you using the internet Unsane. Does it matter that a Canadian invented it when it was clearly Al Gore?:-)

Canadians are extremely fortunate that they  don't need to spend on their military because they live beside the Stars and Bars. I'm not talking about a Al Queda kind of attack but  If you think it  about it what country would want to attack Canada? Has Canada asked us to protect them before?

I know what your views are, and you know mine. Why can't you accept to agree to disagree on this topic? Your constant need to get in the last word to any poster is really amazing. I'm off for my first day off site seeing soon. Have a good day:)

Invention of the Internet

I thought the Internet was invented by military-industrial types trying to communicate with each other. WWW was a Canadian, I think.

Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower

I thought the Internet was in

I thought the Internet was invented by military-industrial types trying to communicate with each other. WWW was a Canadian, I think.

I realize a Canadian did not invent the internet and It was not Al Gore. I was just trying to point out that is nice getting credit for inventing things, but it does not make you better than anybody else.

More admirable perhaps

I find people who invent things admirable. Not sure that I think they are better than most, except I would have to say that a Leonardo Da Vinci or a Les Paul are in a seperate category. They are better than everybody else.

Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower

dagda

Or Hugh Hefner ;-)

Shawn

Heff is luckier, not better than I am. :)

Our real problem, then, is not our strength today; it is rather the vital necessity of action today to ensure our strength tomorrow. Dwight Eisenhower

It doesn't make you better th

It doesn't make you better than anyone else?  I would say it does.  For example, Mozart is a better composer than I can hope to be...until that day when I can compose entire symphonies in my head.

But to go back to the issue of societies: it actually says a lot for your society/civilization when your citizens continually crank out inventions and innovations, one after another after another, while no one else manages to do the same.  I know Canada has some smart people: why haven't they contributed anything to medical science since 1968?  Could it be that it has less to do with their people and more to do with an enervating system that discourages growth and innovation in favor of coddling stability?

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

You are right Mozart is a muc

You are right Mozart is a much better composer than you will ever be, just like OJ Simpson is a better running back than I will ever be, but that does not make him a better person than me.

I would think it is the results of your team rather than individual effort that matters. Randy Moss is one of the best wide receivers in history, but the Raiders as a team were crappy. Remember the NY Yankees for many years were crappy in the nineties? No one knew who Derek Jeter was. That Yankee team in the Ninties did not have  one superstar"at the time" they just played great as a team and had one of the best season ever. Same goes  for Canada, not much Individualism, but lots of surpluss in their budget every year.

Risk Taking, shockingly is GOOD

And Alberta has NO debt.  At all.  So what? (There is a Canadian debt, and the provinces CONSTANTLY WHINE to Ottawa for more money to coddle and baby their people.) 

And another dirty little secret?  Why those surpluses you brag about?  Not spending on power projection.  (And Canadians wonder why they never ever matter in the world and never will.)  They know that if ANYTHING goes wrong in Canada, they can always run crying to the United States.  (Of course, that's gonna change too, as PM Harper's government wisely decided to upgrade airlift capabilities by buying 8 C-17s.) 

Deal with it: the country you so adore wants to be completely stable and not EVER EVER EVER take ANY...RISKS (gasp!!!!), and as such, it is Going Nowhere.  Not going down the toilet, not going down the drain...but sure as all hell never ever mentioned in the same breath as China, India, Japan, the United States...nations full of people who take risks, even if that means incurring a little debt now and then...and if you don't want to be mentioned in the same breath as China and the United States, that is fine, if your goal as a society is to Go Absolutely Nowhere.  But those are the nations that are not written about centuries later.  We don't care about what Albania did (or rather, didn't do) during the 1500s...we sure as all hell care about what Britain, Spain, France and the Netherlands were doing.  Why?  It wasn't because Queen Elizabeth I was constantly worried about how happy the people were and running surpluses, that's for sure.

Take Boeing for example.  They risked the entire company and THEN some on the 747 being successful.  The rest is history.  Now, if the CEO back then said "WAAAHHHHH!!!  We cannot take any risks!!!  I don't want any debt!!", the world would be deprived of one of the greatest advancements in aviation history and one of the most awesome planes ever designed. 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

they live beside the Stars an

they live beside the Stars and Bars

Don't you mean The Stars and Stripes ? ;-)

Sorry Free, Stars and Bars re

Sorry Free, Stars and Bars refers more to the confederate flag.  Your not going to pull a Simple and Plain on me are you?

Shawn

Your not going to pull a Simple and Plain on me are you?

Nah, we save that stuff for trolls. ;-)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in on

FreeStinker

Awww.......thx Free thats the nicest thing you ever said to me.

Ending not with a bang but a whimper, or rather, a whine

What a whiny final paragraph.  And no, I want MEDICAL advances.  Seeing as the Canadians gave up on that around 1968, I expect to see an extremely short list.

This little excerpt is just for you and all the whiners and complainers like Space Cowboy who whine that America is a horrible, evil place because we aren't all getting pampered by the Nanny State:

From a review of Unhappily Better Off by Virginia Postrel:

“He (the author of the book, Mr. Easterbrook) observes that "Just two generations ago it was almost everybody, rather than 14 percent, who lacked health insurance - only the wealthy knew protection against ruinous medical expenses."

Medical spending is rising because we buy more care. ‘A generation ago, a doctor would tell a patient with chronic nonspecific knee pain to take aspirin and avoid strenuous activity first thing in the morning; the standard was that you lived with such things," he writes. Today we get arthroscopic surgery and knee replacements. "The notion of living with any treatable discomfort is unthinkable.’

We should be happy and grateful for these blessings, he says, but we aren't. ‘Our forebears, who worked and sacrificed tirelessly in the hopes their descendants would someday be free, comfortable, healthy and educated, might be dismayed to observe how acidly we deny we now are these things,’ writes Easterbrook.”

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

The reason there is a private

The reason there is a private system in Britain is because people are increasingly getting fed up with the NHS.  Imagine that.

Oh, and only 10 NATIONS in the entire world have bigger budgets than the NHS.  All of that coddling to provide substandard care for 60-65 million people.

We have a government run school system that turns out functional illiterates on a yearly basis, all the while constantly crying for more money.  Space Cowboy LOVES this SO MUCH, he wants the government to pay for his doctor (by of course stealing from me and others).  Never mind that as Johnbo he threw a fit and the mere suggestion of privatizing Social Security, screaming that it would sent the national debt through the roof; he thinks that the United States should nationalize 14-15% of the U.S. economy, no problem.  When is he going to start crying for the government (us) to start paying for his gasoline, his utilities, his rent, his groceries? 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Real simple.  It's called th

Real simple.  It's called the single payer system - same, in general, that all the other industrial democracies use.  You know, all those countries that rank far above us in QUALITY of health care (World Health Organization) and far BELOW us in costs per person spent on health care and do all that while providing UNIVERSAL COVERAGE.

Oh yeah, I forgot.  South Africa also doesn't provide universal health care - if you want to count them as one of the "developed" countries.  It's us and South Africa, baby.

Is this a great country, or what?

The World Helath Org is under

The World Helath Org is under the United Nations auspices right?

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Oh, you mean rationed health

Oh, you mean rationed health care?  Like they have in England?

Where there's a wait for a hearing aid for two years?  Like that?  Where they import doctors from third world countries (doctors who are more interested in blowing up their hosts than performing their jobs and living by their hippocratic oaths?).

I'd prefer private health insurance any day of the week.  So if you want to stand in line, Johnbo, be my guest.

Count me out.

Good luck, Blonde.  I hope t

Good luck, Blonde.  I hope that, if you do have health care insurance, you get the service you paid for when you need it.  It means convincing someone paid to deny service that you deserve it.  And, if you DON'T have health care insurance, you don't get sick because you'll end up in an emergency room hoping to get help - and then being charged, excuse the analogy, an arm and a leg.

Kleptomania

You don't get charged to get stabilized.  I know that if I don't have insurance, and if I get in an accident in, say, the San Antonio area, all I need to do is ask to be taken to University Hospital.  I'l get stabilized, no problem.

Damn kleptomaniacs... 

WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

If they rank far above us in

If they rank far above us in quality, please explain the rise of private health insurance in Britain.  The Netherlands, Italy, and France also have people flocking to private insurance in spite of the Nanny State.  IIRC, the Netherlands reports private expenditure on health care at 40%.  So much for the State that you so worship providing "quality". 

Foreign Policy's July/August edition also reports that although France's system is cheaper than America's, with plenty of patient/doctor autonomy, it comes at a price: the doctors in France, in addition to getting raped by the State for all of the nannying the State provides, make a third of what doctors in the United States make.  But then, I am addressing a poster who is too lazy to get his own doctor; one who would rather punish and steal from the successful to fund his coddling.   

Also, explain why the United States has won far more Nobel Prizes in medicine since 1977, at least, than the Nanny States you swear are the wave of the future.

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Unsane,I shall leave the argu

Unsane,

I shall leave the argument for private insurance in your very capable hands.  I'm out for a while. 

Hope you enjoy Johnbo's dazzling defense of the one-payer system.  I'm beyond floored by the stupidity....just sayin'.

Later.

Kleptos of the world unite

Johnbo/Space Cowboy/Maurice is just a common thief who wants to steal from me because he is too lazy to get his own doctor. 

Say, maybe someone can tell me all of the great advancements Canada has made in health care since 1968, or all of the Nobel Prizes they have one since the government killed their medical industry's desire to innovate...er, I mean, made health care "free". 

Isn't it funny that Johnbo/Space Cowboy/Maurice some time ago whined and cried about how Social Security can't be privatized because it would increase the debt waaaay too much, but sees NOTHING wrong with nationalizing 14-15% of the United States economy??? 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Unsane....There you go again

Unsane....

There you go again using logic. This tactic usually won't work with lefty thinkers.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

The rise in private health ca

The rise in private health care in Britian in no way dismisses the argument for universal coverage.  That need is supported both by economic arguments as well as moral and ethical ones.  The rise of a private system is simply the market providing a higher quality service for those who want to pay for it. 

For instance, it's comparable to our collective agreement that public park spaces for recreation are beneficial to the general welfare but  private enterprise provides a higher quality, more exclusive service at private health clubs for those who can afford it.  Both are good.  Having only an expensive club available to only those that can afford it isn't serving the greater good.  And, health care is much more important than recreation.

As for the Nobel Prizes, it's fine that we can produce very high quality health services and research.  We still need to address the need for preventive services that will prevent greater problems down the road.  Universal coverage provides that.  We need both.

Another economic argument is that we have burdened our businesses with health care costs and make them uncompetitive in the world ecomony when competing against other companies in other industrial countries that are relieved of those costs.

That sir was a beautiful soci

That sir was a beautiful socialist rant.

The liberal MSM has become an enemy of the USA.

Wow, really?And I didn't even

Wow, really?

And I didn't even know I was a "socialist".

So, Queer thinker, I'm wondering what you think of Enron and the recent meltdown of the California power market that they engineered?  Remember the arguments we heard from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (headed by Ken Lays hand-picked boy) about letting the market work it out?  Gee, the old taxpayer-owned utilities were boring but they delivered the goods at a reasonable cost, didn't they.  When "free enterprise" got involved, we had punk-ass traders gaming the system and laughting all the way to the bank.  While they piled up billions, the whole west coast delt with a rolling blackout and skyrocketing rates.  Kind of like the punk-ass service denyers hired by the HMO's to limit services and pump up the profits, huh?

Is this what you mean by letting private enterprise run the show?

Did you ever think it might

Did you ever think your energy woes might have had something to do with the punk ass fudge packers in sacramento not allowing nukes for the last 30 years? Shove your power needs california punk!

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

There have been no refineries

There have been no refineries built in California in 40 years due to the 'red tape' involved.  Also there has been legislated additives and different blends for different seasons.  The change over time always has an increase in costs.

That doesn't even go into MBTE a mandated additive that has caused untold environmental damage

"The more I study science, the more I believe in God."     Einstein

LOL MM. I love the punk ran

LOL MM.

I love the punk rant. Funny dude.

You've seen the spoof. Now see the spoof of the spoof on YouTube: The Clintpranos: Bada Bong

thx, just hope it survives

thx, just hope it survives the censors! :-)

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

MM.......thanks...we clear on

MM....

...thanks...we clear on Mt/Id border are still paying a 25.00 a month add on for the so-called power black-out caused by Enron (not) that was only supposed to last for about six months at the most two or three years later now...thanks to Difi and Boxer...btw...if memory serves me right...Boxer had stocks in some of the energy Co.'s she got rid of in a hurry when all of this came to light.

All Hail Free Enterprise

You should love profits more.  What else will you have to dream about stealing if not for profits?

I belong to an HMO.  It's awesome...all I do is pay $5 for a doctor's visit?  Sign me up! 

And just look at private enterprise in TX.  Sure, it was time-consuming shopping for my utility provider in Houston for my apartment, but I saved money instead of handing money over to a monopoly that faced no competition.  Now with privatized electricity, I have several utilities clobbering each other competing to get my dollar, and all the while pushing up the standard of service and quality.  And oh yes...what company was based in Houston???

Oh, and for all of the Leftist's whining about global warming...for some reason I cannot drive down I-10 between Houston and San Antonio without seeing at least ONE oversized rig hauling windmill parts west.  Drive through west Texas and you cannot miss the windmills.  They are everywhere.  If you pay $5 more a month, my utility will assuage my guilt (if I had any, but I am heartless, in an Ayn Rand sort of way) by providing me power exclusively from the windmills. 

But then, just the thought of having to SHOP for the best deal, due to freedom and liberty just oppresses you, doesn't it? You'd much rather have a Big Government Nanny do 100% of the thinking and decision-making for you, don't you???

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

"Remember the argument

"Remember the arguments we heard from the Federal Energy Regulatory
Commission (headed by Ken Lays hand-picked boy) about letting the
market work it out? Gee, the old taxpayer-owned utilities were boring
but they delivered the goods at a reasonable cost, didn't they. When
"free enterprise" got involved, we had punk-ass traders gaming the
system and laughting all the way to the bank."

Nice revisionist history, but not quite accurate. Since California had imposed price controls via caps on how much companies could charge for electricity, there never was a "free enterprise" in place. So, when resources became scarce for a variety of reasons, wholesale prices rose. And, when wholesale prices rose above the level the power companies were allowed to charge consumers, they began to lose money on every kilowatt hour they sold.

Rising wholesale prices signaled that electricity was increasingly scarce, but retail prices, which were capped, told consumers that nothing had changed. As a result consumers demanded more electricity than was available, and, naturally, blackouts occured.

Bankruptcies also occured, and because wholesalers would no longer sell to bankrupt utility companies, naturally, good old government came to the rescue. As a result, consumers paid more for their electricity......partly through their electric bills, and the rest on their tax bills or in reduced government services as the state's record budget surplus turned into a record deficit.

If anything, your analogy proves our point. Not quite as sexy as lame attempts to slam capitalism by socialists like you, though,is it? Maybe that explains why guys like you are so fond of making things up....the real world is just too boring for you.

And if you want to know why we spend so much more per person here, part of the reason is because we have access to more advanced, more expensive treatment options than other countries. Hell, Canada doesn't even provide all the prescription drugs that we have available here. And I imagine allowing patients to die while on waiting lists for live saving treatment and basically practicing euthanasia on the elderly probably helps lower the cost too.

"Revisionist history&quo

"Revisionist history"?

If you knew a lick about what the CA power meltdown, you'd know that Enron gamed the system - and bigtime.  Doesn't mean there weren't problems with the half-assed compromise that CA came up with that distorted the market.  But, what happened is that Enron took advantage of CA's problems and pushed it into crisis in order to make billions of dollars.  Had they been an honest broker, CA would have pulled themselves out of the ditch a lot faster and without sinking into billions of dollars of debt.  Even FERC - the same FERC that said "lets let the market work it out" while CA suffered; the same FERC run by one of Ken Lay's buddies - determined that Enron had cost CA BILLIONS of dollars and allowed for some restitution - albiet pennies on the dollars.  Had they done what they're supposed to do - REGULATE THE FREAKING POWER MARKETS - Enron wouldn't have gotten away with what they did.

You haven't heard the tapes of the traders laughing about the people in CA they were screwing?

So, REVISE THAT!!

And, it's a perfect analogie with the health care system.  Free enterprise has been able to push the costs of health care up at twice the price of inflation with the collusion of the government.  The perscription drug "benefit" especially comes to mind.

If California didn't have s

If California didn't have such restricting policies in place and allowed power plants to be built to sufficiently supply customers with electricity, they wouldn't have had to buy electricity from a Texas company. Don't blame companies for taking advantage of the market your state created.

"Space Cowboy", you

"Space Cowboy", you say?

Sounds suspiciously like you are the same fellow who posts over at Captain Ed's. Fellow by the name of "starfleet_dude".

LOL! Be a little more original. At least I used two different names of tropical juice for my fake name. Both of which will make a mean mai tai

No, I'm not "starfleet_d

No, I'm not "starfleet_dude".  But, how about Space Dude?

And, isn't a mai tai a girls drink?  What are you, some kind of limp-wristed faggot?  Can't you name yourself after a MAN'S drink?

It's great that we have exp

It's great that we have expensive cars for those that can afford them, but the government needs to provide free cars for everyone. After all, transportation is much more important than recreation. If we don't have cars, we can't get to work. If we can't work, our families will starve. Wait.. we need government to provide free "universal" food. After all, if we don't have food, it doesn't matter what kind of health care system we have.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

The Trabbi

As we ALL know, when the government provides FREE cars to everyone, the society is VERY successful!  East Germany is an economic POWERHOUSE today because the people just love the Trabbis!  So what if they have to wait 8-12 years to qualify to get one? 

Wait a minute...

:-)

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

The rise of private insurance

The rise of private insurance in Britain completely torpedoes the argument you have been making: that ONLY the government can provide quality health care.  If that were true, then why the rise of private insurance in Britain?  How come Canadians routinely come across the border for health care?

And no, Space Cowboy, it is 100% IMMORAL for people to STEAL from me or others via the government to provide something they should manage to get all on their own. 

What's next?  How is this ANY different from you stealing from me to buy your groceries?  I also find it interesting that, like all other Leftists, you try to make the argument for the nationalization of a section of the economy via local government initiatives like public parks. Do you realize how many of these public spaces are...DONATED? How many of their improvements are paid for on PRIVATE initiative? I do, but you simply cannot imagine putting on your clothes in the morning without having a government bureaucrat select your clothes and dress you, so the thought of pirvate initiative is alien to you.

Universal health care does not provide preventative services.  Read your history of the NHS.  This is exactly what Ernest Bevan thought when he began the NHS: that costs would go down because people would be healthier.  What he failed to account for, as you consistently do, is the reaction of human nature to getting provided a "free" service.  Bevan, and the U.K. got bit in the ass. (for more details, read William I. Hitchcock's The Struggle For Europe.) Tell me, if gasoline was "free", where would be your incentive to drive less?  Because health care costs money - that, and I really find that working, instead of sitting on my ass (never mind sick pay), advances my economic well being -I do things to minimize my health care needs - like drive safer, avoid tobacco and other unhealthy habits.

Dentistry is a perfect example.  I have never paid more than $100 for a dental visit.  Why?  Things called brushing, floss, fluoride, and periodic cleanings. (And my mama will brag endlessly: "I never gave him sugar when he was a kid!!!")  People who don't do these things are the ones paying through the nose at the dentist. 

Your economic argument is pathetic as well.  If your statement held any water, then we shouldn't see any BMWs getting built in SC, or Airbuses in Mobile, AL, or Japanese cars built throughout the South.  If they hired their workers at home, they wouldn't have to pay for their health care, yet the HAPPILY come here and offer generous benefits packages to their employees to include health care.  If what you say is true, why is that?

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Well, Unsane, I see you ke

Well, Unsane,

I see you kept up a decent argument for the right side....thanks.

You know, Unsane, you're just

You know, Unsane, you're just a one-trick pony.  You've got the same Ayn Rand/libertarian-inspired rant for everything.   Reminds me of Bush and his tax cuts.  Too much surplus?  We need tax cuts.  Country deep in depression and debt?  I'm sure tax cuts will solve that problem.  How about a unilateral invasion and deep quaqmire costing billions a week as far as the eye can see?  You guessed it.  More tax cuts.

Only in your one-note symphony is providing universal health care "stealing" from the likes of you.  And, see my above explanation about the rise of private insurance in Britian.  It in no way undermines the argument for universal health care.

As for the economic argument, for someone that claims to read The Economist constatly, you of all people should be familiar with the problems American companies are having with competition because of health care.  The fact that foreign companies are coming here to set up shop only suggests that there are enough other economic forces besides health care at work here.

Do I have to explain EVERYTHING to you?

For my favorite Socialist/Kleptocrat

I did read your argument, my favorite kleptomaniac.  It holds NO WATER.  If people in Britain are so happy and contented with the NHS, then why are they running screaming to private health insurance? 

When that happens, that means the system has failed.  Miserably.  Too bad, so sad.

You whine I am a one-trick pony, yet ALL you rant, scream, whine, and cry for is more and more and more and more and more and more government control of EVERYTHING.  You simply will NOT be happy until every aspect of your life is strictly regimented by government bureaucracy.  Why is this?  Is it because you can't handle life?  Is it because you LOVE the idea of being a ward of the State?  Is it because life requires people to take risks, and the very word "risk" completely terrifies you?

Some of us actually get to the point where we want to be independent of everything, including our mommies and daddies.  From everything I see here, you still want to be a child, a ward to be adopted by The Big Nanny who will do ALL of your thinking FOR you, because you apparently cannot handle life.

I see the word "STEAL" bothers you or else you wouldn't be whining about it.  Whine all you want, but when you want to pick my pocket because you are too lazy to get your own doctor, I call it as I see it.  You are just too chicken to actually pull a gun on me and do it that way, so you hide behind the government. 

As for tax cuts, look up "the Laffer Curve" and see what that says.  Tax cuts make total economic sense.  It isn't my fault that both parties engage in out of control spending; I bitch constantly at Congress via the pen and e-mail about it.  Do you? 

And as for universal health care solving economic problems, you are the one screaming that if the State gets in the business of pampering people, that our economic woes will be solved.  No.  YOU were the one SCREAMING about how we cannot at any cost even consider for a nanosecond the privatization of Social Security because it would explode the deficit/debt, yet you blithely propose the nationalization of 14-15% of the U.S. economy, and then have the government turn around and give that away like Halloween candy.  I am saying that if health care makes the Nanny States more competitive as YOU claim, then why aren't those companies staying at home?  Why would they bother coming here? 

I do read The Economist quite a bit, but I don't read like you do.  I read critically.  Reading critically is....forget it.  But I suggest you blow about $6-7 and buy the July/August Foreign Policy and read its section on Europe.  It will blow some holes in your little mythology that you seem to believe.

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

You say that health care is a

You say that health care is about 15% of the American economy.  I wonder what percent it is of the economies of Britian, France, Germany, etc.?  Does the fact that we pay twice the per-capita amount on health care as the next closest country tell you something about health care costs here?  Could health care costs make up 15% of the economy because they're so inflated by the "free enterprise" factor - the costs that we're having to pay to have the health insurance middle man?

And while you're at it, explain please why health care has been consistently going up at twice the rate of inflation?

Consider, while you're at it, that Medicare administration costs are a FRACTION of those of HMO's.  Why is GOVERNMENT-RUN health care provided at a fraction of the administrative costs of private health care?  This is THE OPPOSITE of your free enterprise model, isn't it?

Are you getting the picture yet?  Maybe there's something wrong in River City?

And, please, enough with the rant about how I need the state to take care of my every need.  There's a place for efficient government.  I mean, someone should deliver the mail and make take care of policing the playing field.  I don't like buracuracy any more than you do.  I do feel we need a good delivery system for health care.  We're already half way there.  Medicare makes up half of all our health care at this point and is doing quite nicely, thank you.

"Medicare makes up hal

"Medicare makes up half of all our health care at this point and is doing quite nicely, thank you."

Riiiight, Medicare is doing just fine....

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

Right.  Medicare costs a fra

Right.  Medicare costs a fraction of what HMOs cost, but yet, Medicare is poised to bankrupt our government just as Social Security is.  Did you miss the memo where entitlement spending is the largest portion of the federal budget, and the fastest growing? 

The reason that the medical industry is 14-15% of the U.S. economy, my whiny Socialist, is partially because your beloved Nanny States have given up.  Their hospitals and doctors have zero incentive (look up the word "incentive" sometime) to innovate and develop new procedures, treatments, and so on.  This country is where it's at for medical research and discovery.  Hence the Nobel Prize parade.  The United States makes serious cash over everyone else having surrendered...oh, and by the way, those Nanny States are very happy that there is SOMEBODY around with risk-takers and people willing/able to experiment, or else they would be screwed. 

Doctors, nurses, and so on, do NOT work for free, or out of the kindness of their hearts.  They, at some point, have to go someplace called "home" and they all need to eat, as much as that angers you. 

Health care costs have been going up thanks to lawyers who think since doctors are obviously made of money, they can be sued for even the slightest transgressions for outrageous settlements.  That malpractice insurance has to come from somewhere. Not to mention...(gasp!) government interference, via Medicare!!!

You want to fix heath care?  Don't resort to models that are increasing unpopular (h/t to Foreign Policy) in their home countries, as one can see by their citizenry increasingly spending their own money on docs...enact tort reform, privatize Medicare, and permit the establishment of Medical Savings Accounts to force doctors and others to fight for a limited pool of money.  And, if the unions want to do American industry, and themselves a favor: instead of making political contributions and lavishing dues money on themselves, why not take those dues and go in with industry 50-50 on health care packages?  I see that as a win-win for unions.  Their membership will go up, and the industries they are paired with will become more competitive.  But don't expect me to slit the throat of the goose that lays the golden eggs as you would do.

Are YOU getting the picture yet?  Nah.  Because your life's dream is turn over 100% of your political and economic freedom to the government, to become a ward of the State.  If the mail is delivered so efficiently, well, explain the rise of UPS, FedEx, and DHL?  The fact is that government by its very nature is very INEFFICIENT, and history demonstrates this again and again and again.  Just look at your beloved Nanny States: there IS a reason France's unemployment rate stubbornly sits at roughly 9%.  Medicare is bankrupting our country and therefore is NOT doing quite nicely, thank you.

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Blonde, I have one. I had a b

Blonde, I have one. I had a bad accident and destroyed my shoulder. A doctor replaced it..thou it doesn't quite work as well as the old one.

try again!

Good for you Bunny.Glad it's

Good for you Bunny.

Glad it's working out okay.

Don't you find it absurd that illegals can get free health care here?  Or were you just being ironical?

For Blonde

Say Blonde...where was the artificial hip invented?

My instinct says it wasn't one of the rotting European Nanny States.  They all ache for their elderly to do their civic duty and die, for one thing. 

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

"If Gupta’s statemen

"If Gupta’s statements were libelous, Moore would have to show Gupta maliciously attacked Moore and his reputation was damaged. But, that would prove difficult based on the success of Moore’s movie."

The quote is from the last paragraph of the second link. I guess $12 Million is a new definiton of success in the movie industry.

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.
Thompson/Rice

I just saw part of the interv

I just saw part of the interview with Moore vs. Gupta on Beck...

Gupta got him good...

First time I saw him speechless too....as Gupta to said so well with a big ol' grin.

I LOVED it!

Free health care in France and England...lmao....

Earth to Moore...nothing in life is FREE!

Want better medicare for al

Want better medicare for all Americans, its simple...tort reform, real tort reform. From what I understand Doctors are applying to Texas faster than the license board can handle, because in Texas they passed tort reform.

Cap the winnings to no more than to cover medical costs and if the person died, then the amount no greater than their life insurance. If the person didn't die, but is disabled, then in an amount no greater than a percent of their life insurance (based on how disable).

Have the jury in these cases be in the medical profession, as a person should be tried by their peers, not by a bunch of people who watch soap operas all day.

We need to stop turning our courts into lottery winnings. Then you will see affordable healthcare for everyone.

Those last two sentences I am

Those last two sentences I am in 100% perfect agreement with.  I'd also be willing to bet that costs in medicine will go down here in TX. 

Prescriptions are cheap, because Wal-Mart slashed their prices, and H-E-B (the local, privately held grocery chain with stores throughout TX and northern Mexico, for those who don't know) responded in kind.  Price wars are great, aren't they?

Also, if Medicare can be privatized, that will end the era of "free money" from the government.  Watch the prices come down at that point. 

Finally, people need to have medical insurance for medical emergencies, not everyday problems (but that is more of a cultural problem that needs to be changed).  If you had people with Medical Savings Accounts for routine care (physicals, checkups, routine illnesses, dentistry, eye exams, etc) while using medical insurance for major emergencies, like a major life-threatening illness, car accidents, and so forth, that would go a LONG way. 

As a bonus: why can't unions use their dues money to, insteand of feeding union thugs and funding either political party, to team up with corporations and, say, go 50-50 on health care plans for thier employees?  If they did that...watch corporations become more profitable and more competitive...and union membership rise.  A potential win-win situation...

(These Leftist whiners should take a spin sometime through Houston's Medical Center, and take a similar spin through the South Texas Medical Center in San Antonio, and then try to find anything remotely similar in any of the Nanny States they so worship.  The medical frontiers are being advanced there - not in the Nanny States.)

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Great point Unsane. The fun

Great point Unsane. The funny thing is, I agree with a one payer system, it's just I think the one payer should be the consumer, not the government. Nothing controls costs better than a fair and open market place. In addition, limit the outrageous payouts in malpractice suits so that health care providers can afford to care for the poor. Malpractice insurance rates do as much as anything to keep health care costs high.

Evening CV....Could not agree

Evening CV....

Could not agree more.

The Senate only got partial torte reform done/passed before Jeffers jumped ship....thanks to Shrillary as far as I am concerned.

Too many things were going through, including Judges that she could just not take anymore...I will as long as I live never forget any of this....

Oh well....life goes on....

Viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.