Just in time for worldwide concerts to draw attention to the planet’s imminent doom at the hands of anthropogenic global warming, a new find in Greenland suggests that much of the hysteria in Al Gore’s schlockumentary “An Inconvenient Truth” has absolutely no basis in scientific fact.
Even though this study will likely get little to no attention from a media in full fawn mode over Gore and his Live Earth concerts, the findings throw a huge monkey wrench into alarmist warnings of climate-related devastation to the planet and species offered as reasons for developed nations to radically change behavior.
As marvelously reported by the Boston Globe Friday (h/t Benny Peiser, emphasis added throughout):
An international team of scientists, drilling deep into the ice layers of Greenland, has found DNA from ancient spiders and trees, evidence that suggests the frozen shield covering the immense island survived the earth's last period of global warming.
The findings, published today in the journal Science, indicate Greenland's ice may be less susceptible to the massive meltdown predicted by computer models of climate change, the article's main author said in an interview.
"If our data is correct, and I believe it is, then this means the southern Greenland ice cap is more stable than previously thought," said Eske Willerslev, research leader and professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Copenhagen. "This may have implications for how the ice sheets respond to global warming. They may withstand rising temperatures."
How can that be? After all, soon-to-be-Dr. Al Gore – who has had absolutely no training in the relevant areas of science despite the media belief that he is indeed the foremost expert on the subject – says Greenland is going to thaw in the near future with devastating repercussions. Surely he can’t be wrong:
A painstaking analysis of surviving genetic fragments locked in the ice of southern Greenland shows that somewhere between 450,000 and 800,000 years ago, the world's largest island had a climate much like that of Northern New England, the researchers said. Butterflies fluttered over lush meadows interspersed with stands of pine, spruce, and alder.
Greenland really was green, before Ice Age glaciers enshrouded vast swaths of the Northern Hemisphere.
Wait. Isn’t the debate over and the science settled on this issue? It appears not:
More controversially -- and as an example of how research in one realm of science can unexpectedly affect assumptions in another -- the discovery of microscopic bits of organic matter retrieved from ice 1.2 miles beneath the surface indicates that the ice fields of southern Greenland may be more resilient to rising global temperatures than has been forecast. The DNA could have been preserved only if the ice layers remained largely intact.
A scenario often raised by global warming specialists is that Greenland's ice trove will turn liquid in the rising temperatures of coming decades, with hundreds of trillions of gallons of water spilling into the Atlantic. This could cause ocean levels worldwide to rise anywhere from 3 to 20 feet, according to computer projections -- bad news for seaport cities like Boston.
But the discovery of organic matter in ice dating from half-a-million years ago offers evidence that the Greenland ice shield remained frozen even during the earth's last "interglacial period" -- some 120,000 years ago -- when average temperatures were 9 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than they are now. That's slightly higher than the average temperatures foreseen by most scientists for the end of this century, although some environmentalists warn it might get even hotter.
Incredible. And, as many scientists have been claiming regardless of such falling on deaf press ears, this indicates just how nonsensical and worthless climate models proclaiming imminent planetary doom are:
Researchers from the Danish-led team said the unanticipated findings appear to fly in the face of prevailing scientific views about the likely fate of Greenland's thickly-layered ice, although Willerslev stressed that the findings do not contradict the basic premise that the earth's temperature is rising to worrisome levels, with gases emitted by industry, cars, and other human activity playing a big role.
"But it suggests a problem with the [computer] models" that predict melting ice from Greenland could drown cities and destroy civilizations, according to Willerslev.
Think this will be headline news during Live Earth weekend?
No. Neither do I. Regardless, it certainly makes watching the concerts more comical!
—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Follow him at Facebook and Twitter.




















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More on Greenland
December 11, 2007 - 16:21 ET by PopularTechGreenland - Dramatic Ice loss in the Greenland seas in 1817 (A History of the Royal Society Archive)
Greenland - ERS altimeter survey shows growth of Greenland Ice Sheet interior (ESA - European Space Agency)
Greenland - Fossil DNA Proves Greenland Once Had Lush Forests; Ice Sheet Is Surprisingly Stable (Science Daily)
Greenland - Greenland's Glaciers Have Been Receding for 100 Years (University of Aarhus, Denmark)
Greenland - Greenland’s Glaciers Take a Breather (The New York Times)
Greenland - Greenland Ice Sheet Changes Are Normal; No Evidence Of Long-Term Climate Changes (Science Daily)
Greenland - Greenland Temperatures Coldest in 60 Years (The Heartland Institute)
Greenland - Is Greenland really melting? (Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D. Ecological Climatology)
Greenland - Latest Scientific Studies Refute Fears of Greenland Melt (US Senate Environment & Public Works Committee)
Greenland - Letter to the Editor: Greenland Ice Gain Since World War II (The Heartland Institute)
Greenland - Recent cooling in coastal southern Greenland and relation with the North Atlantic Oscillation (American Geophysical Union)
Greenland - Study Shows Greenland’s Ice Growing (CO2 Science)
Greenland - The Cold Truth about Greenland (Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D. Ecological Climatology)
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
I saw this yesterday and reli
July 7, 2007 - 09:28 ET by bassndudeI saw this yesterday and relished every word. It still sounds good today. I love it when a plan comes together, or Als' falls apart.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
He belongs back under the roc
July 7, 2007 - 10:50 ET by pickerseniorHe belongs back under the rock he crawled out of.
Pickersenior - "If liberals didn't live it, it doesn't exist."
So many Gorolytes in one pl
July 7, 2007 - 09:55 ET by acadia1755So many Gorolytes in one place(Gargoyles are them grotesque statues spewing rain waters from roof through their mouth making a gargling sounds) I find the word Gorolytes is a perfect fit for these Twits.
I could watch it I guess but Al Gore is such a Stomach turner and I Have to have breakfast.
The Liberals have become what they hate.
Goregoyles n. 1. Evil-faced poseurs spewing junk science...
July 7, 2007 - 10:14 ET by heldmywGoregoyles n. 1. Evil-faced poseurs spewing junk science from gaping, foul-smelling orifices. Created fear and panic among the weaker-minded adults and small children, but were finally proven to be mythical boogeypersons who couldn't even find a closet to hide in.
AGW and European Scientists
July 7, 2007 - 09:56 ET by pbthinkerIt appears that scientists, in Europe, are leading the way in research that disputes the "consensus" opinions being presented. I have no reason to believe there aren't scientists, in the U.S., who disagree with many of the predictions being made by the Gorebal Warming people but, it appears, they are under unique pressures, such as having their funding pulled, if they speak out. Apparently, in other countries, the truth counts more than consensus.
The question I ask, is will the truth come out before Gore is successful in destroying the economies of the world with his policy endeavors. As was noted, in some media outlets today, Sen. John Dingell is preparing to send a carbon tax bill out for consideration, as a means of showing people just what the fight, against AGW, is going to cost them, in real money. Are Americans ready to pay this price, based on the specious science being presented at this time? Somehow, I doubt it.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
“But the discovery of organ
July 7, 2007 - 10:02 ET by Dave High“But the discovery of organic matter in ice dating from half-a-million years ago offers evidence that the Greenland ice shield remained frozen even during the earth's last "interglacial period" –“
Noel:
By reprinting this and using it as denier evidence, you are certainly treading on thin ice. Remember, many of your fellow deniers think the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Skating away on the thin ice of a new day, Dave High
think the earth is only
July 7, 2007 - 10:20 ET by Free Stinkerthink the earth is only 6,000 years old.
What makes you think that? I mean, besides the fact that it is what DU or MoveOn told you to think.
I have no idea how old the earth is. (Neither do you) Could be 6,000 years old. Could be Billions of years old.
Dave High
July 7, 2007 - 10:22 ET byScooter Libby
I guess you're referring to w
July 7, 2007 - 10:39 ET by malcumI guess you're referring to what your people call nutty Christians. Well, there probably are a lot of true believers out there. But may I remind you that your "true believers" think that in 10 years the only ice left will be at the Marriott. Now, who's nuttier?
Dave
July 7, 2007 - 10:41 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
Is this what I went to bat for you for to get you reinstated as a member a few months ago -- so that you could do drive-by derisions of writers, members, and readers?
You make me very sorry I did, and lead me to not want to do so again in the future for the next former loathing liberal asking for his/her membership back.
Are you proud of how you are representing the liberal view here? After all, your continually snide opening remarks at any thread you enter confirms that which makes it so difficult for conservatives to take any of you seriously enough to want to engage in a civil dialogue.
Yet, hypocritically, folks like you complain about the caustic tone of politics in the nation coincident with failing to recognize how much your behavior is the precipitating factor.
You must be very proud. ns
Noel,I think you should leave
July 7, 2007 - 12:48 ET by mattmNoel,
I think you should leave him be. He's aptly representing the Liberal viewpoint which is, with very few exceptions, not defended by logic, thought and fact, but merely by denigrating anyone who isn't a Liberal. By dismissing someone as a Nazi, or a nut or a hate-mongering racist, or whatever, you don't have to actually argue the merits of any issue.
mattm,I agree. Dave does an e
July 7, 2007 - 14:31 ET by Dave Rmattm,
I agree. Dave does an exceptional job of representing authentic "liberal logic" (damn, I think my monitor just cracked) here at NB. Just look at his post above, where he managed to insult Noel, as well as insult the intelligence of most of the members here, and also showed himself to be an anti-Christian bigot-practically all in the same sentence. Hell, even tumbler couldn't do that.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
Thanks. You guys need some
July 7, 2007 - 21:18 ET by Dave HighThanks. You guys need some perspective. It might as well be me.
Dave High
Good point. I never tire of h
July 7, 2007 - 22:21 ET by Roger the ShrubberGood point. I never tire of hearing the out-of-touch dumbass perspective. You provide a valuable service, Dave!
RtS:As an "out of touch
July 7, 2007 - 23:08 ET by Dave HighRtS:
As an "out of touch dumb ass" I respect your admission that I might provide something?"
Liberal Regards, DAH
Dave, You never responded t
July 7, 2007 - 23:12 ET by Free StinkerDave, You never responded to my post this morning:
Why not? You didn't have a talking point to handle the situation?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in one building.
Kevin Federline, Cato Kaelin,
July 8, 2007 - 09:16 ET by Roger the ShrubberKevin Federline, Cato Kaelin, and Paris Hilton provide something, too. Providing "something" merely means you offer a product. Not necessarily a product worth consuming, admiring, or paying attention to, but a "product" nonetheless.
You can take a dump into your right hand, and offer that up as a "product". It would not sell very well and would probably give people the impression you are a "out-of-touch dumbass".
But, by all means, keep posting that "product" you are so proud of.
Sorry Noel, but you conservat
July 7, 2007 - 21:08 ET by Dave HighSorry Noel, but you conservatives have been burning down the house with your false rhetoric for far too long. I am sorry if you can’t reconcile the fact that you cite scientific premises to prove your anti-global warming position that fly in the face of your faith.
Answer me this: Do you trust science, or your faith? Honest to God, you can’t have it both ways. In your opinion, is the earth billions of years old, or just 6,000? Please answer.
Regards, Dave High
Dave the same God who created
July 7, 2007 - 21:28 ET byDave the same God who created this universe also inspired the writers of Scripture if you see a contradiction then you are misunderstanding one or the other or both
Scooter Libby
And Dave the 'you' is poetic
July 8, 2007 - 00:12 ET byAnd Dave the 'you' is poetic it includes me and everybody else.
Dave, out of curiosity what d
July 7, 2007 - 21:55 ET by shawn228Dave, out of curiosity what did you do to get kicked out of here r. In no way am i making fun of you. I really want to know what the guidelines are?
When I joined this site, I thought this is one of those sites like redstate.com and had zero tolerence.for Liberal views. Well, I was wrong I have seen how long tumbler lasted. This site has let far out liberals on the left like Monty, Smart Liberals like Leon, and a left of center joe schmoe like me stay on as members. . Yet they kicked out Mobius and Billadkins. I agree with letting American Rhetoric Reiview go. Anyways Dave I would like to hear your side of story on why you got kicked out.
Smart Liberals like Leon
July 7, 2007 - 22:10 ET by Free StinkerSmart Liberals like Leon
Since when did "Smart" mean "Talking Point Regurgitator"?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in one building.
Here's how Leon described him
July 7, 2007 - 22:59 ET byHere's how Leon described himself:
I think you're learning a thing or two from me. That's a backpeddle of a much more superior nature than I would generally expect from you. Bravo, and Bravo!
Now that's progress! If you work hard enough, perhaps you can move from apprentice spinmeister to journeyman spinmeister
In English 1) a denier of what he says and 2) a liar
Come on botg. Lets be realist
July 7, 2007 - 23:08 ET by shawn228Come on botg. Lets be realistic, the msn was biased for Coulter in Chris Mathews Show. Even though I feel Leon crossed the line on some comments, you was reacting after being attacked.
That conversation you are quoting was after you were egging him on, and it is out of context.
Shawn, they are his words
July 7, 2007 - 23:10 ET byShawn, they are his words
I realize they are his words
July 7, 2007 - 23:15 ET by shawn228I realize they are his words botg. Those words were said after he asked you guys to define what victory was.. Then you"botg" decided to point out Leon was not talking about the original heading of a thread. Then people all over give you high fives for giving it to the troll.
I do not agree with everything Leon says, but I say he is smart.
Actually Shawn in the thread
July 7, 2007 - 23:21 ET byActually Shawn in the thread Leon had opportunity to say he had mis-spoke. He chose not to. Leon had opportunity to define victory. He chose not to.
Also i only brought up that he was not following the original thread AFTER he accused someone else of taking the thread off topic.
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
botg, I found the whut-chutak
July 7, 2007 - 23:28 ET by shawn228botg, I found the whut-chutakinbout kinda funny the first time, not the 8th time. Some critized Leon about wanting Tony Blair to eat crow. Leon asked what their definition of winning is. He got flamed and was given and answer, but certainly not from you. After no own answered you deflected in back. You know me full and well botg if there is media bias, i point it out as well. Of course people cheer you on. Look at the audience.
I only used wha-chu 4 times i
July 7, 2007 - 23:42 ET byI only used wha-chu 4 times i think definately not 8.
We get along Shawn because we are able to learn and admit when we need to learn. Leon does not exhibit that quality imho.
I actually stayed back through most of it until Leon's hypocrasy in accussing someone else of being off thread. Then when he admitted his mastery of backpeddling and journeyman spinmeister to Blonde well i couldn't resist.
I don't remember being cheared on BT agreed with me and Blonde had her own thing going on.
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
Yes i admit I embelished on t
July 7, 2007 - 23:45 ET by shawn228Yes i admit I embelished on the whatcutakinbouts.:) I agree, lots of people just went along with the fact Leon changed the topic, when it was clearly you.
i changed the topic?“The wa
July 7, 2007 - 23:48 ET byi changed the topic?
Leon Says:July 5, 2007 - 21:01
psssst LK,
I ignore off-topic posts. Just for future reference. You don't need to do the crickets chirping. We get it.
botg Says:July 5, 2007 - 21:10
Wha-chu talkin bout leon? This thread is about the PM of England and you've gone off then complain that someone else has derailled your derail?
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
Leon asked a direct question.
July 7, 2007 - 23:55 ET by shawn228Leon asked a direct question. The other poster did not respond and was tired to send links. You then pointed out Leon was not staying within the boundries of the thread.
You then pointed out Leon was
July 8, 2007 - 00:02 ET byYou then pointed out Leon was not staying within the boundries of the thread. Yes, right after he said i ignore off topic posts, i reminded him that the whole conversation was off topic
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
Not to mention Leon proved o
July 7, 2007 - 23:29 ET by BlondeNot to mention Leon proved once and for all that he IS reading deficient....by responding to me (with stupid questions...whatever did I mean???, natch) about something you said (thanks, Brucie!).
Blonde you and I know each ot
July 7, 2007 - 23:37 ET by shawn228Blonde you and I know each other well and I know you have a temper. I am walking on eggs shells I know but......Leon asked what somebodys version of Victory is. No an answered and botg said it was not sticking to the topic of the thread. After more flaming said Kill someone told Leon we have to kill all the Evil people or something like that. Yes some of him comments were neener nenner style but only after you guys egged him on. I believe one poster told him to "go to hell"
Read it again, Shawn.With a p
July 7, 2007 - 23:45 ET by BlondeRead it again, Shawn.
With a particular thought in mind. Read what your pal Leon tries to say I said. Then re-read for what I actually said.
You need to learn to look at this kind of stuff with a discerning eye.
Your pal Leon, at the end of this particular encounter, attempted to portray me as angry. In almost every single post I told him how silly and amusing I found his illegal leaps of logic to be.
And yeah, I quoted Mr. Bishop's definition of victory, which is about as good a definition as I've ever read...yet Leon willfully misinterpreted it.
So, if you choose to defend your lib friend, so be it. But that's not terribly smart.
Yes Blonde, I did read it &qu
July 7, 2007 - 23:51 ET by shawn228Yes Blonde, I did read it "twice" The converstation was already off topic. He asked a direct question, then the question was delflected. I realize you do not like Leon very much. He seems to really press your buttons. You aswered with Mr. Bishops idea, abou deafeating all the Islamics is vague at best.
Forget it Shawn.Stick to your
July 7, 2007 - 23:53 ET by BlondeForget it Shawn.
Stick to your liberal principles.
If you don't get it...I don't have the patience to explain it to you (again).
Don't forget Blonde, you the
July 7, 2007 - 23:58 ET by shawn228Don't forget Blonde, you the one who told me not to hold back, even when I was debating you. so that is the way I see it. Prove me wrong.
Sauce for the goose, Shawn.Re
July 8, 2007 - 00:01 ET by BlondeSauce for the goose, Shawn.
Read my post directly above (below? depends on your browser setting) yours.
You've already been proved wrong. Not my problem that you're too stubborn to see it.
Dizzy
July 7, 2007 - 23:55 ET by Free StinkerI'm getting dizzy.
Can't we just talk about Clarissa Ward & Laurie Dhue instead? ;-)
I say he is smart.
July 7, 2007 - 23:26 ET by Free StinkerI say he is smart.
You are entitled to your opinion. I have yet to see anything from him that makes me agree with you.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in one building.
Simple answer: I didn't get k
July 7, 2007 - 23:35 ET by Dave HighSimple answer: I didn't get kicked out. I intentionally changed my password (randomly) so I couldn’t sign myself on again. I did so because I thought I was spending too much time posting negative comments at this site and at the detriment to my family. After a hiatus, I sought to rejoin you all. Noel agreed to help me. For your knowledge, I do not post at any other site. I kind of like you guys because we are so different. I am sorry for the times that I offend, but in truth, I mean it in humor and to inspire debate.
Warmest Regards, Dave High
Post Script – Kudos for NB for allowing me in.
Ok so no one kicked you out.
July 7, 2007 - 23:43 ET by shawn228Ok so no one kicked you out. You left out of Protest? Why???
Shawn:This is not about me, b
July 8, 2007 - 00:00 ET by Dave HighShawn:
This is not about me, but since you asked, here is my final answer: "I am sorry for the times that I offend, but in truth, I mean it in humor and to inspire debate."
Warmest Regards, Dave High
Dave......that sounds like a
July 8, 2007 - 00:03 ET by shawn228Dave......that sounds like a riddle. Simple question. why did you want to leave town. You sound a retired porn star. If you do not want to answer, why o you not answer?
Dave H,The term "day&quo
July 8, 2007 - 00:41 ET by Dave RDave H,
The term "day" has several meanings in the Bible. In some cases, it means a thousand years (ever heard of the 7 day theory?). Biblical scholars far more learned than myself have been debating this subject since the creation of the profession itself. Yes, there are those literalists out there who truly believe the Earth was created in six solar days, but I personally know very few Christians who actually believe this. Actually I know two, to be exact.
As for the Earth being only six thousand years old, that is a no-brainer, as the Old Testament (which is essentially a history of the Jewish people as well as a prophetic work) only goes back that far, yet we know full well there were cultures that existed prior to that time.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
Dave High
July 8, 2007 - 09:31 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
Excuse me, but how do you know what my faith is? Have I ever told you? Frankly, that's not something I've ever discussed with anyone here. As such, like most of your ilk, you are jumping to a specious conclusion. ns
Dave is one of those Liberals
July 8, 2007 - 09:40 ET by Roger the ShrubberDave is one of those Liberals whose every argument revolves around that stupid Christianity thing they are afraid of. I wonder if Dave sits beneath a crystal pyramid, facing due north, while his waif-like fingers compose his "product" to be offered to the NB masses? Surely, Dave hasn't been trying to goad people into silly arguments about religion, doing something as sophomoric as taking shots at Christianity in every post, has he? Naaaah. That would be something a troll would do.
RtS:I am in fact the Stewards
July 8, 2007 - 22:37 ET by Dave HighRtS:
I am in fact the Stewardship Chair at my Unitarian/Universalist church. After 9/11, I became a non-believer because no god could possibly blow up so many people at once in the name of ... god.
Regards, Dave High
so you find free-will incompa
July 8, 2007 - 22:42 ET byso you find free-will incompatable with God? i reason just the opposite: a true God requires free-will
btw: we only see the results here, not the whole picture of eternal consequences (our life here compared to eternity is less than one hour in kindergarten compared to a lifetime)
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
After 9/11, I became a non-be
July 8, 2007 - 22:57 ET by Dave RAfter 9/11, I became a non-believer because no god could possibly blow up so many people at once in the name of ... god.
God didn't kill those people, Dave. They were killed by a band of fanatical Muslims who had allowed themselves to be convinced by a bunch of illiterate mullahs (who seem to be the people in charge of Islam these days) that they were, in fact, carrying out the "will" of God, or, in this case, Allah.
They were only doing what the Qu'ran commands of all Muslims, and that is to either tax, convert, or kill all non-believers. Of course , the 9/11 attackers skipped the first two elements of that edict and went straight to the third. It doesn't get more evil than that.
BTW-Dave, you should know that I do not consider Islam to be a religion. I consider it a political movement, period.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
As an athiest, I've noticed t
July 9, 2007 - 06:34 ET by danboAs an athiest, I've noticed there are 2 groups that say they don't believe in god.
Group one, as myself, just don't believe in god. Religion is a personnel area of faith. Faith and science are not exactly the same thing. We just don't believe it. No big deal.
Then there are people who are angry at god. Because god did or didn't do something. But to claim intellectual superioty because "no god could possibly blow up so many people at one time"?
Sorry if I consider you a POed christian.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
You are correct Noel, I do no
July 8, 2007 - 22:31 ET by Dave HighYou are correct Noel, I do not know your faith. I was only trying to draw you out. It must be difficult for you, as a public figure, to keep your faith private while you espouse scientific truth. Generally, in our Christian country, the two don’t mesh. I was, in a backhanded way, giving you the opportunity to reconcile faith with scientific truth.
Regards, Dave High
giving you the opportunity to
July 8, 2007 - 22:35 ET bygiving you the opportunity to reconcile faith with scientific truth
which is much easier to do than reconciling the big bang with athesim
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
Huh?DH
July 8, 2007 - 22:53 ET by Dave HighHuh?
DH
I have no problem with the cr
July 8, 2007 - 23:01 ET byI have no problem with the creator of the universe being the same God who inspired the writers of Scripture such thyat they exhibit a harmony. If there is a seeming contradiction between our interpretation of Scripture and our interpretation of science then one interpretation or the other (or both) are wrong.
The big bang theory postulates that everything appeared in a cosmic explosion 13.8 billion years ago. If there is no God (cause) then:
Nothing created everything out of nothing (impossible since 'nothing' has no actual existance)
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
good night Dave“The way to
July 8, 2007 - 23:07 ET bygood night Dave
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
The creation of the universe
July 9, 2007 - 00:05 ET by Dave HighThe creation of the universe is truly a mystery. I expect it will always be. It is not adequately explained by scripture. The folks 2,000 years ago had far less understanding of the universe as we now have. We are greater in wisdom than they were. Cementing the future to the past isn't helpful. Looking forward with the knowledge of the past is a good thing. As Micky said about Life cereal, “Try it, you’ll like it!”
Regards, Dave High
High Dave, Your comment rem
July 9, 2007 - 00:15 ET by hydrodynDMDave High,
Your comment reminded me of a post I made to botg a week or so ago in the forum area of this site...
http://newsbusters.org/node/13678
It's near the bottom with regard to the interpretation of Scripture.
hydrothat's a long forum“Th
July 9, 2007 - 17:55 ET byhydro
that's a long forum
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
The creation of the universe
July 9, 2007 - 17:50 ET byThe creation of the universe is truly a mystery So when a logical argument is presented which you can not answer you fall back on the 'mystery' of the gaps? i have not enough faith to trust in mystery
It is not adequately explained by scripture well if you mean the scientific details are not contained there-in you are correct, Scripture is about salvation for people who mess up, but it does contain the broad overview. How would you explain the creation event to shepherds over 4000 years ago?
We are greater in wisdom than they were. i think Dave that we have more knowledge but wisdom? That's a horse of a different color which tends to reside in individuals.
As Micky said about Life cereal, “Try it, you’ll like it!” Been there, done that
Be assured Dave that i have been where you are in your beliefs i will pray for you to be humble enough to hear.
And i'll leave you the last word
Hey Dave, why are the other p
July 7, 2007 - 11:30 ET by NewsbusterbrownHey Dave, why are the other planets warming, too? Answer that before you make any more snide remarks about man-made global warming sceptics.
BTW, I think the Earth is billions of years old.
Remember High dave. Many warm
July 7, 2007 - 12:06 ET by danboRemember High dave. Many warmers haven't a clue as to what science is.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
Dave, it matters not if the E
July 7, 2007 - 12:31 ET by bassndudeDave, it matters not if the Earth is 6000 years, or 6 billion years old. There is no absolute proof of the exact age of the Earth. What dose matter is that it was created by the Creator, (God). How and when is not improtant. We are not aware of his time line or how he measures time. The finding in Iceland is valad. Weather it is from 500,000 thousand years or 5000 years ago, the finding is relative. If the Earth is only 6000 years ago, this finding may be from that era of the beginning. You libs always try to pin down exact dates, and it cannot be done by digging or drilling. All anyone can do is guess.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass:In about two weeks I wil
July 8, 2007 - 00:43 ET by Dave HighBass:
In about two weeks I will be taking my boys (19,16,14) and some of their friends to Ocracoke, NC. I have rented (as I always do) a 24’ boat with a 90 horsepower outboard. My favorite line so far was my eldest son saying, “Dad! This fish is so big it is jerking the rod out of my hand!”
I think we all have something in common.
In Peace, Dave High
Dave, I have an 19 foot boat.
July 8, 2007 - 13:51 ET by bassndudeDave, I have an 19 foot boat. Love it. There is a 150 HP merc on it. It will run around 70 mph or so, but I rarely run it wide open. She cruises out real nice around 50 or a little less. Depends on the water. A 90 horse motor on a 24 foot boat would really strain the motor to get it on plane, unless your talking about a pontoon boat. That I can see. I work to fish, not fish to work:-)
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass:In Ocracoke, NC I pay a
July 8, 2007 - 22:15 ET by Dave HighBass:
In Ocracoke, NC I pay a great guy (http://www.ocracokei...) $700 to rent a fun boat for a week. It is like a big, ole’ bathtub with an engine because the water is so shallow in the Pamlico Sound, anything with a keel would require someone with knowledge. I have no illusions that I am a great fisherman. Frankly, at fishing, I suck. I have done it all my life and have never gotten better at it. But I do enjoy taking the boys out for a fun ride and hopefully a nice fish. We have caught everything from flounder to clams. And so it goes. Mostly I fish out of my two 15’ Grumman canoes. The first was owned by my grandfather and was one of the first Grumman canoes ever made.
Regards, Dave High
High, Dave!
July 7, 2007 - 20:36 ET by Del DolemonteHigh, Dave!
Reconciliation
July 8, 2007 - 05:37 ET by UnsaneHow do you reconcile your delusion with the fact that some of us conservatives are in fact atheists?
Keep trying to paint the Right with that monolithic paintbrush of yours...
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Unsane:I am not the least bit
July 8, 2007 - 23:08 ET by Dave HighUnsane:
I am not the least bit surprised that some conservatives are atheists. Belief in God is a personal matter. What does it have to do with politics? I guess your confusion lies around the fact that most conservatives are Christians, at least in this country anyway.
Regards, Dave High
Explanation, or lack thereof
July 9, 2007 - 05:05 ET by UnsaneThis explains your initial post on the subject not at all.
Not to mention the following response to Unsane from Dave High back in January or so:
"I have never met an atheist conservative before. Do you piss sideways?"
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Even in the face of this new
July 7, 2007 - 10:17 ET by ThisnThatEven in the face of this new research data, the alarmists are still blaring their horns.
"...although some environmentalists warn it might get even hotter".
Look at how some warn that it might get hotter. Wow! All speculation; nothing to back it up other than someone's opinion.
"...although Willerslev stressed that the findings do not contradict the basic premise that the earth's temperature is rising to worrisome levels, with gases emitted by industry, cars, and other human activity playing a big role"
Two points: The data show that it's been much warmer in the past, so how in the world is this "worrisome"? I would clasify it as "natural", instead. And, what evidence is there that human activity is playing a big role, especially since there were no humans around during the last warming period 120,000 years ago?
These people don't ever give up in the face of evidence, facts, history, and common sense, do they?
Once again, the mighty pillar
July 7, 2007 - 10:51 ET by dahliatraversOnce again, the mighty pillar of AGW, the computer model, fails to "predict" an observed (already took place) condition.
Dahlia,In my computer model t
July 7, 2007 - 10:54 ET byDahlia,
In my computer model the Goracle has oatmeal for brains, must be true computer models don't lie.
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
H'mm, interesting theory, bot
July 7, 2007 - 11:36 ET by dahliatraversH'mm, interesting theory, botg. Yes, we should go forward with the results of your computer model as a working hypothesis and begin selectively looking for evidence to support it.
And Gorophytes, please do not bother producing a brain scan demonstrating otherwise. AGW scientists have insisted that observed conditions are no reason to discard an otherwise perfectly good computer model.
Ah sweet theories Batman!!!!c
July 7, 2007 - 11:55 ET byAh sweet theories Batman!!!!
check out this one!!!!!!!!!!
YIKES!!!!! BONK!!!!! KABLAMMOOOO!!!!
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
botg -Thanks for the link.
July 7, 2007 - 13:18 ET by drillanwrbotg -
Thanks for the link. That was spectacular!
botg INCREDIBLE!!! I
July 7, 2007 - 20:20 ET by Templar10botg
INCREDIBLE!!!
I have NEVER seen or heard of this theory before but it is spectacular!
Everybody...this is a great link that shows the Earth EXPANDING! We've all heard of plate tectonics. We've all heard of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the East Pacific Rise. They are plausible explanations for part of the explanations about Gaia splitting apart...but I NEVER heard a theory that there was once a much smaller planet that EXPANDED.
Is it just me or are there Biblical implications here?
Templar (may i call you Simon
July 7, 2007 - 20:36 ET byTemplar (may i call you Simon?)
Either
1 there is a hollow vacuum in the center (impossible it would suck in the atmosphere and we'd all be in heaven
2 there is a continual appearance of matter being created (also impossible)
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
botg, Not Simon. There
July 7, 2007 - 21:11 ET by Templar10botg,
Not Simon. There were 9 original Templars. They are my favorite group in all of human history.
How about this...bad souls go to hell....the underworld...below the surface of the Earth. Full house and then some? Gotta make room...move Australia over!
Actually...I believe most people are basically good. This is absolutely tongue-in-cheek. I would be horrified if this "theory" was accurate.
But you know...if we all lived as if it were true...what a wonderful world it would be!
Sorry Templar is this the his
July 7, 2007 - 21:22 ET bySorry Templar is this the history you speak of?
if we all lived as if it were true...what a wonderful world it would be!
Agreed and i do believe in justice we might not see it until we die
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
botg, The fifth paragrap
July 7, 2007 - 21:50 ET by Templar10botg,
The fifth paragraph from your own reference:
The vulgar notion that the Templars were as wicked as
they were fearless and brave, has not yet been entirely exploded; but
it is hoped that the copious account of the proceedings against the
order in this country, given in the ninth and tenth chapters of the
ensuing volume, will tend to dispel many unfounded prejudices still
entertained against the fraternity, and excite emotions of admiration
for their constancy and courage, and of pity for their unmerited and
cruel fate.
It's easy to make anyone look bad when you can rewrite history. I read boatloads of history - especially about the KT. Read the transcripts from their trials...all hear say evidence delivered second and third hand.
We are WAY off topic here....I will simply thank you for your BRILLIANT link and, again, direct you to your own documentation.
And for those simply looking in who condemn the Knights and the Crusades in general:
1) When did the first crusade occur? 200 YEARS after Islam began to spread by the sword.
2) What had Islam done by then? Conquered/slaughtered HALF of Christendom.
3) How long did the Kingdom of Jerusalem last? Roughly 200 years. Was it worth it? (Have our freedoms for 200 years been worth it?)
Think about it...for 200 years, one Christian country after another was conquered/slaughtered. When HALF of Christendom was GONE!!!!! the first Crusade was called.
This is ancient history. There are MANY unknowns and there is now way to know (with certainty) the truth. But there are ways to form opinions and that is all I have. An opinion.
Philip the Fair (King of France) wanted the Templar treasure after a mob chased him into the temple in Paris and he saw the answer to his financial problems. He orchestrated (through his proxy on the Papal throne) the arrest of the Templars in one fell swoop across Christendom on the original Friday the 13th.
Bottom line...(and yes...this is just my opinion and worthless beyond that) the Knights Templar were dedicated holy warriors for God against Islam. Gosh...what's going on in the world today? Could it be a HOLY WAR? YES! And only one side knows it.
At this late date in history, we view the concept of fighting for religion as abhorent. Most of human history would view our concept of fighting for mere politics as abhorent. We like to think we have progressed so very far. The only two world wars and the incredible slaughter they represent occurred whithin the last 100 years. Yeah...that's progress!
I'll check it out“The way t
July 7, 2007 - 22:01 ET byI'll check it out
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -Chief Justice John Roberts
You impress me!
July 7, 2007 - 22:19 ET by Templar10You impress me!
I accept that the truth about
July 8, 2007 - 14:15 ET by danboI accept that the truth about the Templars is fleeting. As so much we know about them was written by their enemies.
Though I don't doubt that the French Crown wanted the Templar wealth. Which looks to have been extensive. They created the original travelers check.
But I was of the impression that the Crown was so indebted to the Templars, there was no way to repay France's debts. Being in debt to an independent group who was also a potent military presence... Rather than try to repay. The plot was hatched with the Vatacan to bring them to trial as heritics or worse.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
The Earth is Sweating Naturally
July 7, 2007 - 11:35 ET by Lame CherryThe Canadian research is actually worrying about a coming global
cooling to earth based upon the silt records in British Columbia on the
long term solar cycles as in a minnie ice age is due in the next
decades.
I was watching Jeopardy the other week and one of GlobAL
Gore, 1000 volunteers he sent out to spread the myth was on and Alex
Trebec mentioned about the ice sheets thickening and yet he said, "I
still believe in global warming".
These idiots can see
scientific fact and still chant the myth. Trebec has an excuse, but
when you get money grubber "professors" like Galen McKinley out of
Wisconsin "refuting" facts from climatologists due to the fact she is
making a huge salary living "studying" how Lake Superior affects global
warming it is nothing but a sham exposed.
The University of
Wisconsin gets funding by propagating the myth. These European
"scientists" went to Greenland knowing they would find melting and gee
when they got there they found out they were being lied to. What is
interesting in they unlike Galen McKinley actually reported the data
instead of repressing it or going on lying about global warming.
If you notice ALL of the data coming in shows exactly the opposite of global warming.
I will share with the readers my findings in that the sun is actually
heating as the Canadians have found, but it is not cosmic rays alone as
they found but the sun is warming on a bandwidth science has not looked
at yet. This bandwidth resembles a microwave in radiating only the
liquids in a bowl, but not the bowl. This is partly why the ice sheets
are "melting" in the frozen areas. Their explanation is complicated too.
This bandwidth radiation of liquids is causing a slight increase in glacial
flow and a weakening of the ice. This is what is causing the ice sheets
to break off.
See there is no such thing as green house gases
heating anything as it is only water other liquids or mists which are
capable of holding heat. The term is holding heat as they can not
generate heat. All they can do is absorb as much solar heat as the day
allows and immediately start cooling in the night.
NASA is the
place which started this green house gas nonsense in trying to explain
why Venus is "so hot". For the reality of money grubbers like Galen
McKinley and those who never considered it, here are the facts:
Mercury is hot. It is close to the sun. It has no atmosphere.
Venus is hot. It is close to the sun. It has an atmosphere.
Earth is mild. It is perfectly situated by God to the sun. It has an atmosphere.
Mars is cold. It is far away from the sun. It has a thin atmosphere.
Jupiter and Saturn are cold. They are far from the sun, but have thick atmospheres.
In all of the above, it is position from the sun which dictates how hot a
planet is. Jupiter and Saturn being massive and having all of those
gases should be infernos collecting solar radiation and are not. That
blows green house gases completely out of the water as it is the sun
which warms and water is a simple moderation factor.
As I have
written of, the earth is a perfect "body". The atmosphere and oceans
"breathe" and they are like a skin. Right now because of this radiant
solar energy the earth is naturally "sweating" putting more vapor in
the atmosphere NOT TO HEAT THE PLANET, but to cool it. This vapor
moving around naturally increases the core center thickness of glaciers
and is what they are finding. It is though not an ice age event just a
gliche of more vapor.
When a true ice age event occurs, then by
natural means ice thickness increases as the atmosphere rids itself of
sheilding vapors and allows more sun into heating the earth. This is a
remarkable system God created in dealing with moderation of solar
activity.
Now I am not going to win a Nobel Prize which I should
for what God has placed in plain sight as here am I not taking millions
trying to set up a scheme which to destroy Republican forms of
government by filling the pockets of banking cartels so the middle
class has no money or power. All of the above is correct though and
should be awarded the Nobel as it is the first complete explanation of
planet earth's symbiotic moderation.
I do though believe that there is going to be a solar spike of massive radiant heating in the
near future as the frequency of axis shift of the entire solar zone is
about to move into a new cosmic grid. That is something governments
should be investing billions in NOT to stop it as nothing can, but to
provide seven year stockpiles of food, advanced shelter housing to deal
with this spike and the reserves of genetic materials. That is where
the money should be invested and is where screaming masses of people
are going to hopefully haul the Al Gores and Galen McKinley's before
Congress demanding why all that money was wasted on a scheme when
measures to help people could have been in place.
This is the explanation you are not hearing, but it is the Newton truth in God science.
agtG 245
*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
Global Warming
July 7, 2007 - 12:13 ET by PolazerusYou have my vote for the Nobel Prize. Well said.
"I do though believe t
July 7, 2007 - 12:21 ET by steve2007"I do though believe that there is going to be a solar spike of massive radiant heating in the near future as the frequency of axis shift of the entire solar zone is about to move into a new cosmic grid."
wow...
Lame Cherry, Do not misunders
July 7, 2007 - 22:34 ET by alamojbLame Cherry,
Do not misunderstand what I about to say, but I want to point out a problem with something you said. You indicated that the distance of the planet from the sun determines its temp. While that plays a large role in it, especially considering the Inverse Square Law in regards to solar radiance, it only plays a part.
I would point out to you that the moon is on average roughly the same distance from the Sun as the Earth. Sometimes it is farther away, sometimes it is closer because of its orbit around the Earth. But on average it is the roughly same distance from the Sun. However you will find large temp differences on the moon. “The temperature at the lunar equator ranges from extremely low to extremely high -- from about -280 degrees F (-173 degrees C) at night to +260 degrees F (+127 degrees C) in the daytime. In some deep craters near the moon's poles, the temperature is always near -400 degrees F (-240 degrees C).”
This is not just because of the moon’s long day/night cycle, although that plays a part. The lack of a significant atmosphere also allows the temp swings to occur.
Later in your post you seemed to admit that the atmosphere does play a role in moderating temps on earth.
Your comment about “new cosmic grid”, well I am not even touching that one…
I am every bit a skeptic that man has played a significant role in climate change up till this point, outside of the Urban Heat Island Effect.
Interesting how global warm
July 7, 2007 - 12:18 ET by steve2007Interesting how global warming skeptics seem to find it necessary to argue against every single aspect of the global warming mechanism. Here is a list of some arguments I have seen presented on Newsbusters (by articles or posters):
In many cases, just one of these points would be enough to kill the theory (say, if carbon dioxide levels have not really gone up). But you guys are trying to kill every single aspect of the theory, which is really over-doing it. For global warming theory to be right, almost every mechanism in the theory must be right, but for it to be wrong, just one mechanism being wrong is probably enough. I find it rather implausible that scientists would not have gotten at least something right.
The problem is that many of the arguments I see here are in contradiction with others. For instance, if the sun is warming the planets, then the Earth should be warming, right? But no, the Earth is not really warming because our temperature measurements are bad. Or, warming won't melt the ice caps, but then why are the ice caps on Mars melting (which is our evidence for increased solar irradiance)?
My point is these arguments as a whole are not coherent, and many of them are completely unnecessary. Yet for some reason, they are perpetuated. My guess would be if a truly valid argument existed it would be quickly latched on to, and the others dropped. For now though, since you really have no good argument, you might as well keep flinging these ones.
Steve. I wouldn't talk. Your
July 7, 2007 - 12:32 ET by danboSteve. I wouldn't talk. Your warmers have danced around every piece of science that pointed to problems in AGW.
You only seem to think that science that supports you is worthwhile. Be it evidence of higher CO2 levels. Evidence of warmer periods. You just brush these aside. Or pretend they don't exist.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
Global Warming
July 7, 2007 - 12:39 ET by PolazerusIt is not that we need to kill every aspect. It is that we are trying to explain it in terms you can understand. You are correct YOU only need one to debunk the theory, but WE (the skeptics) apherently need to completely bash every aspect of the "crisis" and it is still not enough. What is it going to take? Do you need a cause to feel important? I can think of many better causes if that is the case.
Gee, Steve2007. Your post
July 7, 2007 - 12:39 ET by alfalfaGee, Steve2007. Your post shows how little you know about science. First of all, the list you give is an accumulation of many posts by many people. When you get theories debunking AGW from several sources, they are most likely to be in contradiction with others. If they came from one source or person, then you would have an argument. As far as AGW science goes (or any theorem goes), you only need one "point" or argument to kill the theory. It cannot live on if disproved in any way. Yes - every mechanism in the theory must be right for it to be true. If somebody disproves that humans are causing AGW in any way, then it is untrue. Then another theory must be developed and proved/disproved. Science is about developing theories and trying in every way to disprove them so that they can stand alone as the truth or proof. I don't see anyone trying to disprove AGW in the grant-driven scientist community. They are too busy calling everyone deniers instead of doing their jobs and trying their best to disprove their theories.
Steve, you miss the point, or
July 7, 2007 - 13:03 ET by bassndudeSteve, you miss the point, or you are trying to derail here. The argument is not that the Earth is getting warmer, cooler or what ever. The point is that, whatever is going on at the present time, it will change, all on its own, and man can neither hurry it up nor slow it down. The Earth has experienced many extremes in its existance, and will vary in the future, and man has nothing to do with it. CO2 content was 400ppm in the 1840s', and that was not SUVs'. Weather changes. Get over it.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
"Scientists not involved
July 7, 2007 - 13:25 ET by chessplayer"Scientists not involved in the study cautioned, however, that current climate change is so driven by pollution from power plants, industry, and other human activity that it is nearly impossible to draw a meaningful conclusion about the durability of Greenland's ice."
"Whatever occurred in the past almost surely occurred much more slowly," said Raymond S. Bradley, director of the Climate System Research Center at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. "Human activity is pushing warming at a much faster rate than in the past. Change is occurring in decades or centuries, not over millennia."
"The raw results of this study are very impressive -- southern Greenland was unglaciated sometime during the last million years or so," said Gavin Schmidt, a climatologist with National Aeronautics and Space Administration 's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. "I would argue that this implies a more unstable ice sheet, not the opposite."
Those are the statements the Apocalyptics will use to write off the Danish teams work as meaningless.
Global Warming
July 7, 2007 - 13:20 ET by PolazerusSteve....Steve...are you there? Trouble with the facts......? Feeling the consensus....?
That's the problem with Libs
July 7, 2007 - 14:18 ET by needforcalmThat's the problem with Libs like Steve and Davehigh, they only want to argue about the messenger and not the message. The message they want to not discuss is that AGW theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese. They don't realize that science is about proving and disproving. Some scientist theorizes something and then other scientists try to disprove it. The libs go in reverse. The theory is the proof.
Steve
July 7, 2007 - 15:04 ET by Noel SheppardSteve,
With all due respect, it shocks me that the obvious is escaping someone that has presented himself to the group as being a physicist capable of reading scientific studies by highly regarded members of their field and identifying flaws therein which refute their positions.
After all, you've actually just made the skeptical argument:
Exactly. As such, by continually presenting the other salient theories that have been posited by qualified scientists to explain the 0.2 to 0.7 degree warming that occurred during the past century, we skeptics are doing our darndest to point out that there are indeed other possibilities beyond anthropogeny, and, therefore, the science is anything but settled.
The very fact that there are so many scientists presenting explanations that are counter to each other's, but antipathetic to anthropogeny makes the case that the mere suggestion of a consensus -- which in and of itself means absolutely nothing in science anyway -- is totally absurd.
To make this plain and simple, there is no agreement on what has caused this warming; that's what creates all the skepticism. Furthermore, other than the logical cause -- the sun -- the other explanations may never be proven to be 100 percent immutable.
Let's take this a step further, shall we? One of the tenets of our judicial system is that the accused is innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. In fact, this is why OJ Simpson was found not guilty of murder. It wasn't because the jurors didn't believe he did it. Instead, it was due to instructions by the judge that there could be no doubt.
With that in mind, why isn't mankind getting the same treatment when it comes to global warming? Shouldn't man be innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? In criminal trials, the jury has to be unanimous, correct? Not a majority or a "consensus," right?
Yet, with environmentalists and global warming alarmists, man is always assumed guilty until proven innocent. Why is that?
Regardless of the answer, I like the fact that a person has to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, and feel the same should apply to man's role in impacting the environment, especially given how many times throughout history environmentalists have been 100 percent wrong with their accusations. ns
Amen, Noel.....perfect anal
July 7, 2007 - 15:44 ET by alfalfaAmen, Noel.....perfect analogy. The earth warms (and cools) in 1000 different ways, but man is always totally to blame (according to the liberals). Climate is so complex and we (man) dare to say we have all the answers.
Michael Crichton speech:
Fill in the subject line!
July 7, 2007 - 16:25 ET by nkviking75Alfalfa's post is a good argument for supplying your own subject line. Otherwise you can get unexpected results. This one showed up as "Amen, Noel.....perfect anal". It didn't exactly give an accurate synopsis of the post.
When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.
Sorry....
July 7, 2007 - 21:31 ET by alfalfaSorry about that. I haven't posted much here. Learning my way around...
Noel, good luck reasoning wit
July 7, 2007 - 20:26 ET by Del DolemonteNoel, good luck reasoning with Steve. I ran into a liberal at another blog yesterday who actually claimed-with a straight face-that people didn't have to even be accused of crimes to be found guilty of them. He was talking of the Plame leak, of course.
When I reminded him that other people through history had the same viewpoint as his, he ran. Because the people I named were Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
Nicely put, Noel. I notice th
July 8, 2007 - 01:15 ET by Dave RNicely put, Noel. I notice that, as of this posting, Steve has been unable to counter you logic.
If Steve is, in fact, trained in the discipline of physics, then surely he is aware that the temperature measuring devices of 100 years ago were most likely nowhere near as accurate as they are today.
I havent been recording an official tally, but I'd say the score currently is:
Noel: 127
Steve: -86
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
Noel,I'm somewhat surprised
July 8, 2007 - 02:16 ET by steve2007Noel,
I'm somewhat surprised: I think this is the highest volume of responses any of my posts has ever garnered.
The purpose of my post was merely to point out the overall weakness of the arguments presented against global warming theory. Indeed, they cannot all be considered "salient" arguments if they contradict each other. Also, when you have large scientific bodies such as the American Geophysical Union, the American Institute of Physics, and the IPCC all supporting a theory, it is increasingly unlikely that you will find that each and every aspect of the theory is wrong. As such, the fact that each and every aspect is being challenged indicates not that the science is unsettled, but that the critics are on shaky ground. Any further settling of the science is more likely to come as incremental changes to the theory.
I have tried disputing each of the Newsbusters arguments individually, but that just takes too much time. This tactic of attacking every part of the global warming mechanism makes arguing particularly laborious, since as soon as I finish with one argument, a new attack is made against another aspect of the theory.
I agree that the science behind global warming theory is not 100% certain. However, I think the certainty level quoted by the IPCC was something like 90%. This "beyond a shadow of a doubt" analysis you suggest does not seem appropriate when dealing with the economics of global warming. I am no economist, but does it not make more sense to compute the expected cost of different economic paths, and then choose the cheapest? In a simplified, binary approach to things, let us suppose our only two options were (a), to do nothing, or (b), to cut our emissions by some percentage by some time (suggested by the IPCC as necessary to rule out a global warming catastrophe). That would mean the expected cost of option (a) would be 0.9*(cost of dealing with global warming catastrophe), and the cost of option (b) would be the cost of reducing emissions appropriately. Why would you want to wait until the science becomes 100% certain before acting if the cost of (a) is currently higher than the cost of (b)?
Control
July 8, 2007 - 05:47 ET by UnsaneNo, you are not an economist, but you are most certainly an obsessed control freak.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Ah Steve2007, here we go again - stay away from numbers.
July 8, 2007 - 07:59 ET by acaiguanaAh Steve2007, here we go again - stay away from numbers. Just a suggestion.
"(b), to cut our emissions by some percentage by some time (suggested by the IPCC as necessary to rule out a global warming catastrophe). "
"Suggested by the IPCC..."
I suggest the IPCC report has been thoroughly debunked and should be used to add to recycle waste.
There are two parts to the AGW idea. One is science and the other is politics.
To buy into the whole spiel of AGW one must assume that we, man, me, I...
are all responsible for the warming that has been taking place since the end of the mini (and maxi) ice ages. We have to be brought to believe that a miniscule increase in Carbon Dioxide is enough of a catalyst to trigger irreversable Climate Disaster.
Well, I have yet to hear what exactly is wrong with a sligtly warmer planet. Oh, yeah, the sea levels will rise. Um...
So move. Duh.
If the sea level data hadn't been jiggered to 'fit' the models I'd have a lot more respect for the science.
If the politicians weren't trying to throw a 'carbon tax' on the United States (one of the most over taxed countries in the world) I'd have more faith in the Politics.
But I don't.
So, all of your cloth is whole to me. Unfortunately, that isn't science, its politics.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana Notes from the Bomb Shelter' (soon to be a movie at theaters near you)
Steve
July 8, 2007 - 09:29 ET by Noel SheppardSteve,
I couldn't care less about the IPCC. As a creation of the UN, it has shown itself to exclusively be a political body that anyone with a sound mind should completely ignore. From its inception, it has made it clear to participating scientists that they well support the desired conclusions set out from the onset with nary an objection or be summarily disgarded. Countless former members have complained about the heavy-handed tactics of this panel, and how their work has been completely distorted. If you find comfort in the conclusions of this farce, that is up to you. However, I trust nothing that comes out of the UN. Zero.
As for the economics of the situation, I am an economist, and the entire concept of cap and trade when it comes to CO2 is preposterous and quite harmful. In fact, as many nations are not required to participate in Kyoto -- most notably India, China, and Brazil -- and the emissions targets set for the EU nations are significantly easier to achieve than those for the US, it is quite clear that this is just another UN creation to take money from America and give it to other countries. If you can't see this, forgive me, but you're bllnd.
Getting on a plane. Ciao. ns
Noel,I didn't say anything
July 8, 2007 - 19:46 ET by steve2007Noel,
I didn't say anything about a cap and trade system. My point was that to wait until we know with 100% certainty that AGW is correct before acting would be foolish from an economic standpoint. Rather, it would be more appropriate to act if we determine that the expected cost of not dealing with the problem ahead of time (the cost of dealing with it later times the probability that the science is correct) is greater than the cost of dealing with it now.
I was not advocating a cap and trade system in particular; the system for reducing emissions is another question.
As for the IPCC, I disagree with your assessment of it, but regardless of that, what about the other organizations which have endorsed global warming science?
I looked at your list. I know
July 8, 2007 - 20:49 ET by danboI looked at your list. I know or know of people who belong to a number of these organizations who beg to disagree. And some of these groups have vested interests. And some are groups of activist who happen to also be scientist.
I doubt they speak for everyone and to claim so is less than honest.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
Two problems, steve2007.The s
July 8, 2007 - 13:49 ET by dahliatraversTwo problems, steve2007.
The science is rapidly moving away, not towards, 100% certainty of this theory. These are the new attacks "against another aspect of the theory" that you correctly refer to.
Secondly, if the theory of AGW were true - that man's 6% contribution to greenhouse gases is warming the planet at the rate of .77 of a degree fahrenheit per century - let us look at the proposed solution.
All of man's activity constitutes only 6% of greenhouse gases generated; Mother Nature makes the rest. At what point does a reduction in global warming kick in? If we contribute "only" 3% of greenhouse gases instead of the 6%?
Let's go with that for a moment, though I would like to hear what AGW "experts" think the number is. And let's say that everyone around the world is going to reduce their greenhouse gas production by half to achieve the 3%.
So. Around the world and in the US, driving must be reduced by half. Heating, cooling, lighting and cooking must be reduced by half. Manufacturing must be reduced by half. Food and goods transported by trucks down by half.
Does this strike you as reasonable? What do you think will be the effect - on jobs, on farms (they can only transport half their crop to a buyer), on people's minimal comfort (heat reduced by half in the winter; ac reduced by half in the summer) if we where to carry this out?
dahliatravers,You're missin
July 8, 2007 - 16:22 ET by steve2007dahliatravers,
You're missing the point when it comes to carbon dioxide emissions. I have three issues with your arguments:
First suppose, as you suggest, that humans are responsible for 6% of greenhouse gas emissions. This means, if there is no corresponding increase of sinks, that the rate of emissions is increased by 6%. You really need to take the integral of the rate to find the total emissions. That is, this 6% increase is cumulative. This is how the 35% increase in total atmospheric carbon dioxide is explained, even though humans are not responsible for 35% of emissions.
Secondly, you suppose that the economy would have to be reduced by 50% to have a 50% cut in emissions. Why do you assume this? To go with your example of driving, buying a more fuel efficient car can achieve a 50% reduction in emissions compared with a large SUV, without any cut in driving. Similarly, buying compact fluorescent light bulbs saves about 75% of energy use over incandescents, and you get the same amount of lighting. Moreover, building new energy efficient industries can actually grow the economy.
Finally, you argue that carbon dioxide alone cannot significantly influence the atmosphere because it represents a fairly small fraction of the atmosphere. At first glance, this seems reasonable, but the atmosphere cannot be considered as one uniform entity. In reality, if one considers the atmosphere as a multi-layer system, carbon dioxide's role is enhanced.
This argument is pure bullshi
July 10, 2007 - 12:56 ET by Mr. KafirThis argument is pure bullshit. 6% is not the rate. Its the cumulative total in the atomosphere, jerkweed. So your calculations are already flawed from the start.
Secondly, and this is hilarious coming from a eco-marxist like you, you are gonna haul people and equipment in hybrid vehicles? Puh-leeze. You're off your rocker.
Steve. Again you give us talk
July 8, 2007 - 13:58 ET by danboSteve. Again you give us talking points pretending they're science. I think most people here can sort between the BS and science.
The 90% sure factor. Last time I looked science and statistics can give an idea of the odds of rejecting a true hypothesis. But, I know of no means of measuring the odds of accepting a false hypothesis.
Case in point. Hypothesis. Membership in the democratic party drives people to drink. Research design. Randomly select 50 communities in the US. Go to the voter rolls and get the number of democRATS in the community. Then count the number of bars and liquore stores in the phone book. Do a numbers crunch. As the number of democrats increases so does the number of bars. Proof of membership in the democratic party driving people to drink. It'll pass just about every statistical test.
Yet you would be accepting a false hypothesis. As both democratic party membership and bars are controlled by variable "C". Size of population.
Though you choose to ignore all the contradictory data that points to accepting a false hypothesis. Be it evidence of higher pre industialization CO2 levels. Evidence of higher tempertures. Serious questions as to reality of higher temps now as these numbers have been adjusted to give a facade of warming.
But then you say with certainty that you're right.
Sorry if I won't accept your kool aide. I think you ignore too much because of your love of the global warming "theory".
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
A little math...
July 8, 2007 - 18:55 ET by azholmes"I am no economist, but does it not make more sense to compute the expected cost
of different economic paths, and then choose the cheapest? In a
simplified, binary approach to things, let us suppose our only two
options were (a), to do nothing, or (b), to cut our emissions by some
percentage by some time (suggested by the IPCC as necessary to rule out
a global warming catastrophe). That would mean the expected cost of
option (a) would be 0.9*(cost of dealing with global warming
catastrophe), and the cost of option (b) would be the cost of reducing
emissions appropriately. Why would you want to wait until the science
becomes 100% certain before acting if the cost of (a) is currently
higher than the cost of (b)?"
So (case of no "catastrophe"):
(a) 0.9*(cost of dealing with global warming
catastrophe = 0) = 0.
(b) cost of reducing
emissions appropriately = rea > 0.
Choose a.
Or (CO2 not the culprit):
(a) 0.9*(cost of dealing with global warming
catastrophe = $gwc) = $0.9gwc
(b) (rea) + 0.9*(gwc) > $0.9gwc.
Choose a.
The science is settled.
- Are you really willing to bet your life that socialism will work (this time)?
Scientific consensus is a f
July 7, 2007 - 15:27 ET by Army BratScientific consensus is a fleeting thing. Years ago Dr.Linus Van Pauling had some theory or other about the nature of light passing near stars on the way here. I can't remember the details now and I'm not inclined to research it now. Thing was...all his fellow scientists studying the issue, said he was full of crap and what he suggested was stupid and unreasonable...etc. Some 20 years later, the instruments were developed that could test his hypothesis. He was right. He did it again after that...came up with a theory, they ridiculed him, then later he was proven right. Another fellah had a theory that didn't fit with what his fellows thought and they banned his work...wouldn't let him teach...did their best to silence him...even locked him up. Later folks figured out that he was right...the Earth was NOT the center of the universe. But...there was scientific consensus! How could they have been wrong? Never mind that... a quick search on the net will find plenty of climatologists that are not in the pocket of big oil or whatever other evil you come up with, that don't buy the PC line of AGW.
This AGW crap is the new "cause celebre" of the leftist "blame America first" crowd. Those who question the science are called "deniers", comparing those who question the accuracy of the politically inspired results of what is obviously biased and very bad science, to those who question the holocaust. How ridiculous.
The father of modern climatology, Reid Bryson, when asked about Gores flick responded, "Don't make me vomit." Who has greater experience in the field of climatology? Sorry Steve...I'll go with the guy who invented the field of study and has over 40 years of experience. Not some politico trying to get mileage out of non-existent problem. (C'mon Steve...you know he's running for President.)
One more thing Steve...what do you drive? I have no belief in this AGW crap but... I like to spend as little as possible on most things in my life. My present vehicle gets 50 on the highway. I haven't driven a car that got less than that since 89. My wood stove (I live in the woods in Alaska) has a catalytic converter that reduces emissions by reburning the gases as they exit. Big bucks but my wood goes 3 times as far. I have absolutely no problem with reducing, and if possible eliminating pollution. Energy conservation is a no brainer. I could go on but I'm just proving what a cheapskate I am.
It's when poor people suffer for a cause, that was created by elitists like Gore, who will never be affected by, or practice, the changes they demand that others make, that I tend to get pissed.
You don't live in a land that goes to 70 below in the winter with "high winds" of 110 without loving that land. I'm willing to bet that my love for the planet is every bit as great as yours. I choose to live with Moose and Grizzlies wandering through my yard along with Wolves and Foxes. If I thought for one moment that we could save the planet by sacrificing human lives, I'd sign on. (I mean...it's where we live...) In the meantime why sentence people to death for a theory that is unsound at best. (Yes Steve...it will cost lives to attempt to have your little dream come true...research it for yourself. I have.)
And just for the record...we here in Alaska who have been here a while know first hand what drilling in the Arctic is like and what comes of it. And we want more! The Caribou population that was supposed to be decimated by the pipeline went up during and after construction. Scientific consensus my ass. Happy Trails...
Save the earth - sacrifice
July 7, 2007 - 15:51 ET by alfalfaSave the earth - sacrifice Steve!
On consensus
July 8, 2007 - 05:46 ET by UnsaneThere cannot be scientific consensus. Consensus is the creature of politics and parliaments, not science.
Oh, and while living in Anchorage, I saw a bumper sticker that absolutely cracked me up: "Alaskans for Global Warming"! :-)
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Your points are correct.
July 7, 2007 - 17:14 ET by c5thenThere are studies and data that support almost all the 9 points that you've heard here on NB and at other sites. In themselves they do not completely refute the global warming data, some just point to alternative possible causes, but they do show that the debate is far from over and scientifically, we should always be looking for more data and better studies before jumping in with both feet. Especially when the proposed actions will likely not affect the conditions anywhere near what would be required and will cause huge disruptions in the economies of any developed country that joins the "cult".
A couple of decades ago, there was a near consensus that it would be almost impossible for man to fly faster than the speed of sound. They got a lot of conflicting data from their experiments. Many test pilots died getting that data. We know how it turned out. When over 40% of the scientists involved with the UN's IPCC send a letter disputng it's executive conclusion and flatly stating that there is more data needed to make any determination, we can say that the "debate" is DEFINITELY not over.
The rule of skepticism...Follow the money. Those promoting percipitous actions now and specifically implementing Kyoto regardless of it's "drawbacks" have either a political agenda or a financial agenda. Al Gore is the founder of a company that trades carbon credits. It is in his interest to get ans much carbon credit trading happening regardless of its consequences, if any.
The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic
Well stated, except for one s
July 7, 2007 - 20:34 ET by Del DolemonteWell stated, except for one slight error. It was a lot more than a "couple of decades ago" that the consensus was that man couldn't break the sound barrier in an airplane. In fact, it was about 5 decades ago! As I recall we broke the sound barrier in the 1950s (Chuck Yeager did it, if I'm not mistaken)
Further, it appears that the
July 7, 2007 - 21:20 ET by dahliatraversFurther, it appears that the upcoming IPCC report is unfortunately emphasizing p.r. finagling over science.
So, we're faced with an organization which not only intimidates its experts into skewing data, but then forsakes them entirely when summarizing their results.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/02/the_ipcc_should_leave_science.html
The truth about steve2007
July 8, 2007 - 05:42 ET by Unsanesteve2007 - Why you wish to sound pseudointellectual is beyond me.
Wait...could it be that you are using science to justify your intense need to control, control, and control as completely as possible the lives of millions and millions of people in the name of your guilt?
You gave yourself away long ago when you stated that you wished to determine what people needed to drive without first consulting them.
WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
hi unsane. the guy's an ignor
July 8, 2007 - 05:53 ET by Jack Bauerhi unsane. the guy's an ignorant buffon who clearly doesn't know the first thing about how science advances. It's truly painful to read his adolescent ramblings,
It it a complete waste of time answering someone who seems to think science advances by hysterically shouting down those who seek to refute a hypothosis.
I suggest he reads the foremost scientific philosopher of the 20th Century, who, in 1934, quite brilliantly defined how scientific advance can ONLY be made by falsification and refutation.
You note how incoherently annoyed he gets that there is even an effort to falsify and refute the "theory" based on computer models that mankind has, can, or will ever be able to affect the climate.
I bet he believes in alien probe conspiracies as well.
And here is an interesting pa
July 7, 2007 - 21:32 ET by dahliatraversAnd here is an interesting paper by J. Scott Armstrong (the person who offered to make a global warming wager with Al Gore and was inexplicably declined).
"Global Warming: Forecasts by Scientists versus Scientific Forecasts"
http://www.forecastingprinciples.com/Public_Policy/WarmAudit31.pdf
And I quote:The basis for the
July 8, 2007 - 00:26 ET by Mr. KafirAnd I quote:
Jennifer C. Braceras is an attorney and research fellow at Harvard Law School. Her column appears regularly in the Globe.
What the authors said about their own study
July 8, 2007 - 02:53 ET by John CookNoel, to avoid accusations of media bias, maybe you should have included everything the authors of the Greenland research are actually saying about their own study. The study connects past warming to natural variations in Earth's orbit—obliquity, or how tilted the planet is in relation to the sun. Author Martin Sharp points out "One could argue that this shows that natural forcing could account for the current warm conditions, but the current orbital configuration does not support this, even when other natural forcings are taken into account." In other words, their study "really has nothing to say about the mechanisms driving the current warming."
They discovered the Greenland ice shelf is at least 400,00 to 800,000 years old. Certainly it was around the time Erik the Red named the island. According to author Eske Willerslev, the Greenland ice shelf "has not contributed to global sea level rise during the last interglacial. Importantly, it does not mean that we should not be worried about future global warming as the sea level rise of five to six meters during the last interglacial must have come from somewhere."
Finally, Martin Sharp warns the study "does not prove the current global warming trend is not human induced". If anything, "we may be heading for even bigger temperature increases than we previously thought".
Roll out the dreaded questions once again
July 8, 2007 - 06:02 ET by UnsaneJohn Cook - If global warming (oh, sorry, "climate change" is now used so you Leftists and Socialists can cover all the bases) is in fact, fact:
1) Why are China, India, and Brazil, among others, exempt from the Kyoto Protocol?
2) Why don't you guys do any whining at the European Union nations that have ratified Kyoto and then bitch at us all the while flouting its terms (h/t to Foreign Policy's current edition)?
3) Or, for that matter, aim any protest at China for becoming the world's leading producers of greenhouse gases?
4) Why isn't tropical deforestation, which accounts for 20% of greenhouse gas emissions if the scientists you worship like gods (well, actually, you worship the State but we'll leave that for now) are correct, not addressed anywhere in the Kyoto Protocol?
5) What human activities in 1780 initiated the melting of Exit Glacier?
6) Why did it snow in Lisbon and New Delhi in 2005-2006? Why did it snow in Johannesburg in July 2006, and in fact recently?
7) Why did it snow SOUTH and EAST of San Antonio for Christmas 2004? Twenty years ago I was hearing that we would be seeing the effects of man-made global warming, right about...now.
8) Why was I spending much time in January 2007 chipping ice off of my truck? (steve2007 will say, "well, global warming doesn't mean the end of cold winter days in San Antonio". Spoken like one who hasn't set foot south of the Red River. It isn't supposed to ICE OVER in San Antonio, and on the rare occasions that it does, civilization there STOPS. If global warming is in fact happening, why, the ice storms should be reaching new levels of extreme rarity, correct? We native San Antonians [and people in Houston] think ANYTHING below 60 is downright oppressively cold.)
9) Why was the world's highest ever temperature recorded in 1922?
10) Why aren't you GW religionists positively demanding that nuclear reactors be more heavily relied upon, in the fashion of France, as they get 78.5% of their electricity from nukes?
11) Why no major hurricanes last year in the Atlantic?
12) Why was the Beaufort/Chukchi Sea filled with ice floes to kick off AUGUST 2004?
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Hi Unsane, thanks for your re
July 8, 2007 - 18:12 ET by John CookHi Unsane, thanks for your reply. To answer some of your questions:
1,2,3,4,10 - beats the hell out of me. To be honest, I've devoted my (ever diminishing) spare time to researching the scientific question "what is causing global warming?" So I don't consider myself informed enough on the politics/economics to give a qualified opinion on what we should do about it.
6,7,8,12 - You're confusing weather with climate. Weather is chaotic and unpredictable - if you want to filter out the noise of weather, take a moving 5 year average to check out longer term climate trends. Check out NASA GISS's graph of temperature over the past century to see the continuing warming trend. Interestingly from January to May, 2007 is tied with 1998 as the hottest year on record. 1998 was an unusually hot year as it featured the strongest El Nino of the century. There has been no El Nino effect in 2007. Or if you're not a big fan of weather station data, check out weather balloon measurements or satellite data which show the same trends.
9 - wow, no temperature record I've ever looked at says this. In 1922, temperatures were on the rise and kept rising till the 50's where they leveled off for 20 odd years before the current rising trend. Is this a single day record (in which case I refer you to the answer to points 6,7,8,12)?
11 - global warming doesn't cause a greater number of hurricanes but is believed to increase the intensity and duration. Personally, I think the hurricane issue is a storm in a teacup (pardon the pun) - Al Gore made a big deal about it because of the recency of Katrina and it was an emotive issue (a hurricane even graces the cover of his movie).
Finally to address your last point, I don't follow the NBA but my local footy team the Brisbane Broncos (reigning premiers) are on a 4 game winning streak, winning Friday's game in extra time (a cracker of a game). Go the Broncs!
Whoa The figures in http://da
July 8, 2007 - 19:06 ET by danboWhoa The figures in http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A.lrg.gif come from "a 63-station, globally distributed radiosonde network have been used to estimate global, hemispheric, and zonal annual and seasonal temperature deviations"
And do they offer a link to a list of these 63 stations?
So the hype is over 63 places on the earth they decide to monitor. Then adjust satelite data to match these sites to keep the satalites honest.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
On the questions
July 9, 2007 - 05:14 ET by UnsaneYou whine I am confusing weather with climate...but, unfortunately for you, the weather events I showcased should become a greater rarity if the climate gets warmer. And I have heard about global warming for the past 20+ years!
And if you are not bothering to look at the policy implications of the scientific discussion, I would suggest that you are not really all that focused on the issue at all.
I see you are from Australia. I never made it as far north as Brisbane, but I did check out points further south. It is stunning how much sections of NSW look like areas of my home state of TX.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Seems climate is nothing mo
July 9, 2007 - 06:52 ET by danboSeems climate is nothing more than a whole bunch of weather tossed together.
Now they don't do very well predicting weather. But they tell us they know what the bunch of weather will be in 10 years.
Then. Their track recording on predicting climate hasn't been any better than their predictions on weather. They've been telling us, in only ten more years. For the last 40.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
The point, Mr. Cook, is that
July 8, 2007 - 07:55 ET by dahliatraversThe point, Mr. Cook, is that regardless of the source of the warming, the ice shelf survived warmer temperatures. This fact contradicts a major prediction of AGW scientists.
Ice shelf predictions
July 8, 2007 - 17:13 ET by John CookAs is my understanding, the IPCC predictions don't factor in the Greenland ice shelf sliding into the sea due to a lack of understanding in the mechanics of the ice shelf's interaction with the rock underneath. I previously wondered why they were so cautious about it - it makes sense now. Al Gore made a big deal about Greenland but I don't pay much attention to that - I prefer to take my information directly from scientists.
As an "AGWer", the finding that the Greenland ice shelf is more stable than previously thought is great news to me. I've never really subscribed to the doomsday picture of 20 foot sea level rise - that's most likely centuries away. I'm more concerned about the incremental impacts on agriculture, particularly in poorer, low latitude countries. However, the study also found that while the Greenland ice shelf didn't completely melt, sea levels still went up 5 to 6 metres. So there is always the arctic ice, West Antarctica ice and the many retreating glaciers to consider.
I should point out that muc
July 8, 2007 - 17:26 ET by steve2007I should point out that much of the predicted sea level rise is not based on melting ice, but on the thermal expansion of the water already in the oceans. I wouldn't think arctic ice would play a huge role since it is mostly sea-based, rather than land-based.
Arctic ice
July 8, 2007 - 21:24 ET by John CookSteve, you're right about the arctic ice, my bad. The main impact of Arctic melting will be loss of albedo, not sea level rise.
On the Arctic
July 9, 2007 - 05:17 ET by UnsaneIf only I could post my pictures of the Arctic that I took some years back, during what are traditionally the hottest times of the year in the northern hemisphere. You would be stunned at just how much ice was in the water.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Just a technical point. If we
July 8, 2007 - 17:39 ET by danboJust a technical point. If we accept the definition of an ice shelf as "a thick, floating platform of ice that forms where a glacier or ice sheet flows down to a coastline and onto the ocean surface."
If we are to accept that definition. the melting of an ice shelf, in and of itself wouldn't effect sea level. Unless Archimedes made some serious errors with his principle. And that has stood the test of time for over 2000 years.
As far as the antartic. If Rothera Point and Faraday are examples of the area. There have been no new records for mean temp since the 80's.
The poles are supposed to be where we will see it first. Almost 20 years or rising CO2 levels....
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
I though you all would apprec
July 8, 2007 - 15:07 ET by danboI though you all would appreciate this.
Raw Data vrs Adjusted Data
Raw data is in red. As much as they scream about warming. The warm 1998 was only 3rd warmest as far as raw data. Only with the adjustmet did it rise above the highs of the 20's and 30's.
If I'm reading NOAA right. The adjustments have resulted in about a .5 degree increase in warming.
Source
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” H.L. Mencken
Very interesting, danbo.Excer
July 8, 2007 - 17:39 ET by dahliatraversVery interesting, danbo.
Excerpt from the last link - section about adjustments:
Temperature data at stations that have the Maximum/Minimum Temperature System (MMTS) are adjusted for the bias introduced when the liquid-in-glass thermometers were replaced with the MMTS (Quayle, et al. 1991). The TOB debiased data are input into the MMTS program and is the second adjustment. The MMTS program debiases the data obtained from stations with MMTS sensors. The NWS has replaced a majority of the liquid-in-glass thermometers in wooden Cotton-Region shelters with thermistor based maximum-minimum temperature systems (MMTS) housed in smaller plastic shelters. This adjustment removes the MMTS bias for stations so equipped with this type of sensor. The adjustment factors are most appropriate for use when time series of states or larger areas are required.
---------
So we are working with adjusted data. And from that data, we have deduced that the global temperature has risen .77 of a degree fahrenheit over the last century.
How do we know that the original data wasn't correct? Or if it wasn't, that we adjusted it properly?
Most importantly, do we want to be projecting temperature trends, imposing taxes and making draconian policies on the basis of data that requires adjustment?
New study shows Greenalnd Temps stable for 200 years
July 9, 2007 - 09:34 ET by roconnellA new scientific study has just been complete by the Danish Meteorological Institute, which compiled temperatures records for Greenland for the last 250 years. The results of the study show that temperatures in Greenland today are in reality lower then they were in the 1940's, and that temperatures have been on average stable there for the last 200 years
You can find the report here http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/greenland/vintheretal2006.pdf
Thier conclusions are on page 9.
roconnell aka climate change skeptic
http://climatechangeskeptic.blogspot.com/