Comparing Economies: Two Respected Measures Put Bush 43's at or Near the Top

Photo of Tom Blumer.

Today's release of the Institute for Supply Management's Non-Manufacturing Activity Report, which measures business conditions in the 86% of the economy other than manufacturing, came in with a reading of 60.7, after recording a 59.7 last month.

As has been customary, the report whipped the pants off of "expectations." This Thomson Financial article at Forbes predicted a decline to 58.1 instead of the full-point increase that occurred, as did this AFX piece.

This was the 51st consecutive reported month of expansion for the Non-Manufacturing Index (any reading above 50 indicates expansion). It comes on the heels of Monday's ISM Manufacturing Report, which came in at 56, marking the 47th month of expansion in that index in the past 49 months.

So 14% of the economy is expanding nicely, while the other 86% can fairly be said to be nearly booming. Who knew?

(The rest of the post has the detail, including an era-by-era chart.)

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At the halfway point of 2007, this is indeed a good time to look at how the Bush 43 Economy, as measured by the ISM indices, has performed. The dominant theme that seemed to rule Old Media's coverage earlier in the decade was that the economy was "the worst since Herbert Hoover." Even recently, though the earlier meme has receded, a substantial majority of Americans gives the president poor marks for his current stewardship of the economy, with a substantial plurality of Americans even believing that the the economy is, even now, in a recession.

The chart below shows the average Manufacturing Index during each era's term of "budget and economy responsibility" from the index's inception in January of 1948 through June 2007, and the average Non-Manufacturing Index during the two eras since it was first published in July 1997.

The fact is that the Bush 43 Economy is looking pretty darned good, even stellar, compared to most other eras:

ISMhistoryByEra

"Budget and economy responsibility" begins with the inception of the first federal fiscal year (October 1) after the presidential election preceding the beginning of the era, because it is the first budget a new president can directly influence.

Some notes:

  • Bush 43's Manufacturing Index performance is the best in 30 years, going all the way back to Nixon-Ford.
  • The Clinton Era Manufacturing Index performance trails Bush 43's by a substantial margin, as does the Reagan Era.
  • Bush 43's Non-Manufacturing Index performance is ahead of the portion of the Clinton Era that was measured. The first 36 measured months of the Clinton Era were probably the best of Clinton's presidency, but were then followed by 15 months of deterioration due to the fallout from the bursting of the dot-com bubble.
  • Bush 43 began his budget-econ responsibility with Manufacturing and Non-Manufacturing readings in the high 40s, even before the September 11 attacks that pre-dated the onset of his responsibility by a few weeks.
  • The highest Non-Manufacturing Index number during the Clinton Era was 62.6 in August and October of 1997. The Bush 43 Era has had nine months with a higher result.
  • Going further back into history, Carter's very good Manufacturing Index average masks a disastrous 1980, where the index's reading at one point (May of that year) fell to an all-time near-death low of 29.4.

Many, if not most, exclusive consumers of Old Media have no idea what has really been happening in the economy. Here's just one small example of the distorted economic coverage Old Media has engaged in. On February 28, the New York Times' David Leonhardt claimed that the economy's manufacturing sector was in recession (the TimeSelect abstract claims the entire country was in recession, though Leonhardt's original did not). In the four-plus months since Leonhardt's report, ISM has issued 5 reports for the months of February through June. All have come in as expansions. Though one can't be certain because of the TimeSelect firewall, searches of the Times on "manufacturing recession" and "Leonhardt manufacturing" (both without quotes) appear to indicate that the Times reporter has never retracted his recession call.

I think that we'll have to wait until the second quarter GDP results are released to be completely convinced that the economy is on track after very disappointing first-quarter growth. But in light of the ISM reports and history, it's pretty hard to make a case that the economy is in bad shape, and it's even harder to claim that the Bush 43 Era has been one of poor economic performance.

Not that Old Media reporters like David Leonhardt and so many others won't continue to try.

Cross-posted at BizzyBlog.com.

—Tom Blumer is president of a training and development company in Mason, Ohio, and is a contributing editor to NewsBusters


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No. No. NO! People a

No. No. NO!

People are starving in America. The economy sucks! People are living paycheck to paycheck. Hundreds of thousands of children go to bed hungry in America.

The sky is falling and only the Socialists can keep it up there where it belongs.

Hard to afford those illegals

Yeah, and we can hardly afford to pay illegal aliens subminimum wages!

</sarcasm off>

When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.

And most of us are only one

And most of us are only one paycheck from being homeless.

It's the worst economy in 50 years.

  Ignorance is bliss. It's easier to repeat a mindless slogan than to do some actual research.

Things are really going goo

Things are really going well for the top 5%.
Congratulations Mr. President!

Going well for the top 5% eh?

Why is it that successful people have to explain to unsuccessful people why they have; and the unmotivated, entitlement types do not have to explain why they do NOT have? I've never understood this.

Things normally go really w

Things normally go really well for the top 5%. That's why they are the top 5%.

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Congratulations Mr. President

Congratulations Mr. President!

Yes

Here's the long and the short of it. Newton had it right. A body in motion tends to stay in motion (and in a straight line) unless acted upon by some outside force.

MY President has been smart enough (the only elected President with an MBA) to let the capitalistic forces alone. When left alone by the government, the economy will thrive.

NOW, if the democrats (communists) get control of the executive office, in addition to both houses AND socialism runs unfettered we will soon have a the economy CARTERED beyond recognition. After 4 years of their socialism the American people will wake up again and throw the liars all back out of office; even though the MSM (communists) will do everything they can, as usual, to keep the dems (communists) in power.

 What else is new?

And after the Dims screw it (

And after the Dims screw it (the economy) up, they will blame it on Bush for leaving them with nothing to work with.

D-rats are communists ... BET

D-rats are communists ... BETTER BELIEVE IT ... and they're well on their way to being islamofascist communists.

Democrats filled the power vacuum that the Soviet Union left when it collapsed ... they picked up the ball the Stalinists fumbled on their own 1/2 yard line and have been trying to move it to the 1 ever since.

The problem of course is in t

The problem of course is in this “rich get richer, poor get poorer” Republican-favoring economy, the average Jane and Joe don’t feel the benefits of a “vibrant” economy because it’s not helping them.  Despite all the claims that when rich people get richer the middle class benefits too; well, there you go again.  It just ain’t so.  Remember:  Mink don’t trickle down.  This is why Bush gets no credit for a good economy.  It is set up in such a way that only the people at the top are really enjoying the benefits.  What other explanation can there be?  That people hate Bush and therefore hate his economy?  Hogwash.

Regards, Dave High

What other explanation can

What other explanation can there be? That people hate Bush and therefore hate his economy?

Ummm..yeah. That would explain it. With 90 % of the people doing great, the naysayers would focus on the 10% struggling. As long as you divide people into "quintiles" there will be people in the lowest quintile. When you stop to think that many of the people classified as "poor" in this country own a home, most have a car, more than one TV, air conditioning, etc, we're not doing so bad.

So which is it, do you want the poor to have even more, if so, how much more, or is it that you just want the "rich" to have less, regardless of how anyone else is doing?

No, we are not doing so bad.

No, we are not doing so bad.  But the middle class and the poor are not doing nearly as well in terms of financial improvement as the were during the Clinton years.  It's because the middle class and poor trains have been side-tracked so Richy Rich's train can go barreling by.  Sorry, that’s the way it is.  Trust me, if average folks were doing as well under Bush as they were under Clinton, then Bush’s approval ratings would be much, much higher.  As most people don’t have skin in Bush’s Iraq war, they would overlook the debacle if their real wages weren’t sinking.  This is sadly selfish, but it is the way it is and always has been.

Regards, Dave High

That is just plain not true.

That is just plain not true.  With Bush's tax cuts and increasing the child credit, the middle class is doing much better than under clinton.  My family receives an average of $3000 more a year just in taxes (not includng my husband's combat zone pay which is not taxed). 

Once again, please supply the

Once again, please supply the facts.

If you have not improved your lot in life these past 6 years, shame on you. You must be a teacher or government employee if you haven't.

My husband is a government em

My husband is a government employee and we have improved greatly, we increased our investments, paid off our truck a year early and saved an extra 3 months salary and that is only this year.

Yeah, but he's in the armed f

Yeah, but he's in the armed forces, and that's different. Good for you guys. Another example of this damn Bush economy.

You obviously did not follow the pattern of the 1990's mentality: run up high credit card bills, buy a house you cannot afford, and save no money.

Thanks, Roger, I was going

Thanks, Roger, I was going to ask him to supply specifics.

But the middle class and the poor are not doing nearly as well in terms
of financial improvement as the were during the Clinton years. It's
because the middle class and poor trains have been side-tracked so
Richy Rich's train can go barreling by.

That's not an argument; that's a Democrat talking point. While the economy was already picking up in 1992, Clinton campaigned on "the worst economy in 50 years." Of course, that made the recovery during his tenure look all the better, and he took the credit.

FAUX Economy

Let's not forget that it was during the Clinton Admin that corporations started the practice of cooking their books to appear more profitable (ENRON and MCI).

Also, the NASDAQ crash occurred during the Clinton Admin and the economy was starting into a recession.

Liberals (aka socialists) know nothing about (nor care about) promoting capitalism...no nation was ever taxed into prosperity.

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.
Thompson/Rice

In reality-and government sta

In reality-and government stats will prove it-the economic recovery began in March of 1991. That's a year and a half before the 1992 election.

Many years later, the New York Times in an editorial admitted that they hadn't reported it at the time. We all know why.

&quot;But the middle class an

"But the middle class and the poor are not doing nearly as well in terms of financial improvement as the were during the Clinton years"

Yes, the middle class (and even the poor) are struggling so much that most of them can only afford one cell phone, one laptop and one iPod.

High, Dave! The mainstream me

High, Dave!

The mainstream media totally ignored the economic recovery that Clinton later stole credit for.

If you had done your homework and actually looked up the government economic statistics, the recovery in reality began in March of 1991. The "objective media" didn't report it, because they wanted one of their own to win the White House 18 months later.

Dave, you are high

Dave, dave, dave - you've been brainwashed...if you are not achieving, reaching your goals or making the money you want to make, it's not my fault. Deal with it. I, and those who aspire as I do, have worked our butts off for many years so that we DON'T have to live from pay check to pay check. What is your beef really? Not enough entitlement programs? Or, did you not pay attention in the govt. schools growing up? Maybe you decided to skip those core classes to spend the hot summer days at the beach? What is it really? I'm guessing you and those who claim to be less fortunate expect the rest of us to pay your way?....is that it, really? be truthful.

You know Dave, I'm going to a

You know Dave, I'm going to agree with you but in a limited manner.  When John Kerry claims he didn't know his latest hair cut was $1200 because he doesn't pay his own bills, I would be inclined to agree with you.  When Al Gore can spend $1000/month on electricity at just one of his 3 houses (or is it 4?) but then someone has to point out to him that this amount is grossly out of line, we see a detachment from the average person that exceeds most of our imaginations.

So yes, clearly rich lib Dems have done quite well with their various schemes while the rest of us have done well moderately so in a "respectable" fashion. However, all that is besides the point as class envy is not a conservative theme, but a Dem theme.  I find it ironic that coveting (one of those pesky commandments the Supreme Court or the ACLU doesn't want on a monument with the other nine in a government building) what other people have is somehow an entitlement to wealth without any effort on their part to earn that wealth.     

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

Get off the line ya dopey s

Get off the line ya dopey socialist moron.

Better still go watch the BBC/Video Arts 1980 series 'Free To Choose,'  by Milton Friedman. You might learn something. Though I doubt it, given your woeful grasp of economics.

Oh, and you're the expert on hogwash as it spews out your every orrifice on a daily basis.

You've seen the spoof. Now see the spoof of the spoof on YouTube: The Clintpranos: Bada Bong

Unfortunately, you failed to

Unfortunately, you failed to supply some evidence to back up your argument. Repeating the same tired 2004 talking points is something anyone can do, Dave. Come on, you are, once again, being intellectually lazy.

Respond

Dave High,

Lets see now Dave, my boy. I'm interested. What are 6 things that your economic plan has for improving the economy, other than raising taxes, WHICH HAS PROVED TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN to do nothing but retard the economy. Tax cuts have ALWAYS improved the economy AND have resulted in increased revenue for the government.

Never mind Davie, just give me 5 things in your plan. Oh the heck with it, just give me one (and it can't be communism).

Dave &quot;My Boy&quot; Bucke

Dave "My Boy" Buckeye:

Hey, I think we should star in a film together on a mountain.  Wait. it's already been done!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmHC75FDqQ

Seriously heterosexual, Dave High

Dave Is High on Liberal Crack

Dave Is High on Liberal Crack ... how you doin' dumbass?

Anything else you want to naysay into the blackhole of the Democrat belief system?

The 2nd greatest force in the universe : the inertia of liberal stupidity.

When danger reared its ugly h

When danger reared its ugly head, Dave bravely turned his tail and fled.

Yes, Brave Sir Dave turned about, and gallantly he chickened out

Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat

Soiled his pants then brave Sir Dave turned away and fled.

RtS:Do you really, during a H

RtS:

Do you really, during a Holiday week, expect me to do research for you to prove the American people are pissed off at Bush for the economy that favors the rich to the disadvantage of the middle class and poor?  It’s out there, my friend.  It’s been out there for six years!  Wake up!  Do your own research and prove otherwise!  It’s your own conservative positions going down in flames.  Support them!  Jeesh!

Regards, Dave High

Is this your way of telling u

Is this your way of telling us you really don't have anythnig to back up your argument, and your only intention posting here today was to be a smart-ass? Because, the onus is on you to provide the proof, not throw out some BS and then expect the other side to prove it for your. Like I have said all week, Dave, you have become intellectually-lazy. Bummer.

Perhaps if you expanded your world beyond the Hufftard/MoveOn boundaries that you limit yourself to, you may learn something.

The definition of a liberal of someone who stands on their head and tells the world it is upside-down.

RtS:I tire of you.  You call

RtS:

I tire of you.  You call me names and dismiss my opinions without consideration.  I guess I could go to the web, find the hundreds of articles that indicate that Bush has not done well for the middle class and poor, present them to you, and you would slap me down once again. 

Instead, I will throw it back at you.  Please find me one article that shows how the Bush administration has benefitted poor urban black people.  Just one, RtS.  Old, vague articles about NCLB don't count.  Something recent, please.  Now the "proof" is on you.

GFL, DH

RtS:  Tick tick tick.  I kn

RtS:  Tick tick tick.  I know it's tough. 

GFL, DH

Early dinner, RtS?Regards, Da

Early dinner, RtS?

Regards, Dave High

RtS:&quot;Please find me one

RtS:

"Please find me one article that shows how the Bush administration has benefited poor urban black people."

So you, the master GhostBuster web browser, weren't able to do it.  I am not surprised because there is no initiative from the current Bush Administration that helps poor urban black people.  Let's open the gates a little wider, shall we? 

RtS: "Please find me one article that shows how the Bush administration has benefited poor urban people." 

Still too narrow?  How ‘bout poor people, urban, rural, or otherwise in general? 

Sweet Jesus, The Good Lord just doesn’t have influence to help the poor in the current administration, does he?  I know, I know.  It’s up to the churches to help the poor.  But if Jesus is so central to this administration, why is He spending so much time helping the wealthy? 

(This is a philosophical question.  Answer it in your own due time.  In the meantime, SHOW ME THE ARTICLES!!!)

Regards, Dave High

GFL, DH

When danger reared its ugly h

When danger reared its ugly head, RtS bravely turned his tail and fled.

Yes, Brave Sir RtS? turned about, and gallantly he chickened out

Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat

Soiled his pants then brave Sir rTs turned away and fled.

Have GFN, RtS

Never an original thought, uh

Never an original thought, uh Dave? Just goes to show, you can teach a liberal to mimic, but you cant make him think.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Some of us are not unemployed

Some of us are not unemployed, like you, Sparky.

Dave High,You have totally mi

Dave High,

You have totally missed the point again...big surprise!

You cannot challenge your oponent to prove the negative...i.e. you cannot state your point (in this case your opinion) without facts, and then demand your opponent prove the opposite.

So on style points only, for that immediate error on your part, you lose the debate.

You were the one who stated emphatically that only the rich were getting richer under the Bush administration's policies.  And you continued to deflect and refuse to answer the continued challenges..."prove it".

So I'll ask you again....prove it with facts, including legitimate citations.

Roger surely must have been in a good mood to bat you around all day.  And if you think you came out the winner in this exchange, you're not only trollish, but delusional.

So try again.  And trust me when I tell you, if you don't try, and just come back with one of your typical smart-alecky remarks, I'm done with this discussion.

Bass-ackwards again Dave.

Bass-ackwards again Dave. Guess what? As Blonde so well noted, you make a claim... YOU back it up.

Let me try the DaveHigh method of debate...

Clinton was an alien from the planet Lysalot. Find me an article that says he is not an alien from planet Lysalot. If he is not from planet Lysalot, there should be hundreds of articles about him not being from the planet Lysalot.

Tick-tock, tick-tock....

When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment
vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any
President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).

Hey Jerry,It's been a while.Y

Hey Jerry,

It's been a while.

You need to work on that impersonation a bit....not enough snide nastiness.  It was funny, but lacked a certain je' ne sais quois....annoyingness???

These trolls are so silly, and they always fall into the same old trap.  The continued deflections and failure to answer any question (at all) while asking five more questions for each question they've ducked, never fails to amuse.

My favorite part is when they claim victory!!!!!  It's so lame and pathetic as to be really, really funny.

Too bad they can't see it.

Here you go Dave

Here is a link referencing loan forgiveness plan to help get teacher into under served areas.

Here is a link extolling the benefit of NCLB act by providing free tutoring to the poor.

If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG.
Thompson/Rice

HIGH DAVE ...tick, tock

Tick, tock...where's Dave's reply?

Oh, I guess facts got in the way of your liberal talking points.

<crickets chirping...>

I'll jump in here...

The country has the lowest unemployment rate in 30 years. Therefore, more poor urban black people (what a racist term) have jobs.

As the 14th amendment states, the Government has to treat all people equally under the law and may not institute programs for specific groups of people based on their color, race, religion, or income. So, the administration's job is to make decisions to support and benefit the entire economy in general. Doing anything else would be unconstitutional.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic

There are poor urban whites,

There are poor urban whites, blacks, Hispanics, Vietnamese, etc.  Understanding this is not racist.  Denying it is, well, conservative.

DH

irrelevant.

People can be calssified in any number of ways. It is irrelevant to the discussion of the economy of the country. You asked specifically about a particular subclassification that you were interested in. I gave an answer and I also gave a reason why the government can not specifically target any classification.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic

Moronic, and deserves nothi

Moronic, and deserves nothing more than this half-hearted typing exercise.

Well, Sparky, (since you love

Well, Sparky, (since you love being called names. You're not going to cry, are you?) you come to a thread devoted to how well the economy is doing, complete with evidence to back it up, and all you do is whine whine whine, with zero evidence on your side. You would make one helluva lawyer.

Then you prop up the straw man about po black folk, the same po black folk your liberal bullsh*t policies have literally shackled for decades. If anything you are to blame for po black folk not getting it is your nanny-state mentality that has raised generation after generation of needy people unable to care for themselves. I dismiss your opinion because your opinion today, is, well, stupid. You offer NOTHING to back yourself up with. You have had NUMEROUS opportunities to do so, yet you still do not. So spare us the "poor ole me" routine. That might work with your mom, but here in Grown-up Land.

Plus, on top of that, you then try to shift, once again, the burden of defending your bullsh*t argument onto me, when it is your responsibility?

Like I keep saying, you have removed yourself as one of the brighter liberals who come to NB, and have joined the ranks of talking-point-reading, 2004-cliche-spouting, BDS-suffering troll. Congratulations.

RtS:The definition of a liber

RtS:

The definition of a liberal of someone who stands on their head and tells the world it is upside-down

Wait ~ Possible insight here!  The definition of a conservative is one who sees the world as flat!   Regards, Dave High

&quot;The definition of a l

"The definition of a liberal of someone who stands on their head and tells the world it is upside-down

Wait ~ Possible insight here! The definition of a conservative is one who sees the world as flat! Regards, Dave High"

Not the world, just your head, most likely a result of you standing on it per an earlier post combined with the lack of an actual brain to fill the empty space.

High, Dave! Here's some polli

High, Dave!

Here's some polling for you-notice that the vast majority of Americans, unless they're responding to the obviously cooked CNN "poll", think that there are many other things more important than worrying about the economy:

http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm

http://www.pollingreport.com/life.htm

Let's see ... Hillary:  What

Let's see ...

Hillary:  What to do? What to do?  Campaign with the tired old democrat slogan The Worst Economy since Herbert Hoover, or I want to take those profits and ...

By the way, all this after a major terrorist attack on our own soil within our main business/market venue ... and during two wars (battles, I rather say, as A-stan and Iraq are war battles within the whole GWT).

Oh, and I'm so sick of the "polls" claiming the American people think it's a bad economy ... NOT based on their own personal accounting, but on how they feel their neighbors are doing.  The dems and the LMSM have successfully hooked into the American mindset and made them believe in all their negative crap, no matter what the facts in front of their noses is. 

It's the same damn thing with the Iraq coverage. No wonder our troops come home and are completely shocked at what they're hearing coming out of their TVs and congress.

the left are talking down the economy at every opportunity.

The left, with the help of the MSM, have been attempting to talk down the economy and the stock market for years. It gets really voiciferous and rabid during elections (just a coincidence, i'm sure). What we have is an eceonomy that is doing pretty well, almost accross the board, but a significant % of the population thinks that it is doing poorly thanks to all the propaganda by the left.

Over the last 6 years income is up, savings are up, unemployment is at record lows, inflation is relatively tame (3% or less). The left continuously go out and find the couple of cases where they are having problems and promote the hell out of them.

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic

The finest example of the lef

The finest example of the left and the MSM colluding is to examine when the economic recovery began in the early 1990s. They never reported that it in fact began 18 months before the 1992 elections, because to report it would get the hated Pappy Bush re-elected.

Gee

I missed all the fun. Dave High, a cruise through my NB blog has plenty of discussion of income growth.

Here's the one that I think would most interest you:

Refuting Paul Krugman's "Dramatically Worse" Statement to Fox's Neil Cavuto
http://newsbusters.o...

The pic at the link is from a Census Bureau page.

In terms of the 1990s, I would argue that the early years of the Clinton admin didn't do much for the bottom quintile until the GOP congressional takeover took hold, and then things improved.

You should also note that the top quintile's inflation-adjusted income went up about 20% from 1993 to 2000. I don't recall too many complaints about growing income inequality during the late 1990s, do you?

The top quintile from 2000 to 2005? DOWN in real terms about 1%. The rich get richer argument rings a bit hollow.

I think this time's bubble

I think this time's bubble will be the Federal Reserve's slowly-collapsing sub-prime real estate bubble, and I don't think things are as rosy as NB editors seemingly would like me to think. The rise in housing prices created an illusion of prosperity, but the reality will only come if/when we return to our Constitutional roots. We've got a loooooong way to go...
JMR

Reverse

Are things as bad as MSM tries to let you believe?  With all the problems of 9/11, worldwide terror, Global Climate Change(yeah, right), etc., etc., are you living comfortably?  Better than during Carter's time, better than during Raegan's time, better than Bush 41's time, better than Bill's time?  My answer is a resounding yes.  What's you and why?   

You've missed my point, ent

You've missed my point, entirely. Inflation is monetary heroin, if you inject a bunch of heroin you'll feel great for a while, but that does not make injecting heroin a good idea. I see a subprime CDO bubble on the horizon, which looks startlingly similar to the Clinton-era tech bubble. I see Republican partisans trying to defend the bubble as sound economics just as I saw Clinton's partisans trying to defend HIS era's bubble back then when I also told them so. Nothing changes. Finally, I've learned most about this other derivatives issues from Warren Buffett's advisor Charlie Munger and from foreign writers like Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, neither of which even-remotely qualify as the MSM.
JMR

Answer Question

You did not answer my question?  Diversify and you don't get blown away when 1 particular bubble bursts.  So just answer the ?, will ya.  Are you better now than before?  Why or why not?

So you don't deny there's a

So you don't deny there's a massive, inflationary, real estate bubble? Good, that's progress around these parts, as above you were sounding a lot like a Clinton-era tech-bubble defender. And the answer to your question is that I was doing quite well until the government attacked my business (along with a biased and journalism-challenged Faux News). Now I'm still doing ok, but I don't generally ascribe my economic luck -- good or bad -- to the government. This is a special case, it took multiple attacks before I blamed 'em, but I blame 'em now. Do I respect the "nonpolitical" Bush Department of "Justice" for wasting money chasing after my company while this scandal was so-obviously brewing?? Take a wild-ass guess...
JMR

Bubble

You're mixing apples and oranges, sarc. An RE bubble would be a 10% or more decline across-the-board in home prices. I don't thik that will happen.

Your link points to subprime mortgage problems, not RE prices. Subprime problems are indeed pretty big, and reflect a perfect storm of uninformed borrowers, greedy lenders, and GSEs relaxing credit standards (with more, even more of the blame going to the GSEs).

It's a problem, and it has been holding back the economy. Of course I reserve the right to be wrong, but I don't think it's a disaster-in-waiting. OFHEO has yet to issue a quarterly report showing a nationwide home-price decline, though I think the second quarter report may show a small decline.

I will say yes and no on this

I will say yes and no on this one.  The subprimes aren't regulated banks or S&L's as in the last bubble burst, so the banking system isn't going to be affected.  I will say however, this aggressive lending has contributed to speculative buying and over building in some markets like Florida.  The people who get hurt fall into two groups:  1. The foolish subprime lenders, the greedy house flipping speculators who are now caught with their pants down being over exposed to a sluggish real estate market and home builders who hired illegals to build too many houses.  2.  home owners who need to move are forced to endure lengthy waits to sell their homes and the growing unemployed legal home construction workers who have to wait it out until the housing inventory comes down.

So yes, there will be a negative effect to the economy of people who matter, namely home owners who can't move and workers who can't pay bills or must switch job careers.  The positive effects must also be considered: 1. cheaper housing stock for those seeking to purchase a house 2. all the illegals in the construction industry have to go back to where they came from. 

IMHO - the housing industry helped create a majority of this problem by building too many homes too quickly because they relied on illegal labor to fatten their pockets. (if you will remember game theory of over response) Had the labor shortage been allowed to exist and not artifically resolved with imported illegal labor, far fewer houses would have been built, lowering the housing inventory, thus saving everyone including the subprime lenders, the home builders, legal construction worker, the house flippers and home owners.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

You're right, I should have

You're right, I should have said "subprime" before saying "real estate bubble," but the subprime disaster in the making could well effect all of real estate. And I blame this implosion (er...healthy economies tend NOT to inspire an "Implode-O-Meter," in my experience) at least in part on the hysterical and hyperpolitical Department of "Justice" shysters going after any & all issuers of honest money, so I can seem to take it a bit personally at times. And when it IS a disaster, I hereby reserve the right to say 4 words I've said a lot of times before in my life when it comes to money and politics: "I told you so."
JMR

Sac

Sac has there ever been a perfect economy? 

It is apparent that no matter "how great" the economy is. There will always be someone saying "what about this or that?'

FOX NEWS is news.  MSM is Jerry Springer  crap

WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG

I don't ever ask for perfec

I don't ever ask for perfection. "Constitutional" would be a vast improvement, and quite good enough to orgasmically-satisfy me, but people like me were ignored in 2002 & before. We're still right, nothing's changed, and now many more people are actually-listening to us, which gives me great hope for my country. It might not be too-late.
JMR

QL link

Cool link!!! Must read. Added to favorites. I could go for that and get rid of the income tax too!!!

I still think the economy is doing great.

FOX NEWS is news.  MSM is Jerry Springer  crap

WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG

I would also like to point ou

I would also like to point out, unlike the last recession of 2000/2001 which started with the dot.com debacle, the excess labor provided by the illegals will be the first to be reduced as employers facing declining profits and stepped up labor enforcement will want to shed this liability quickly to stay afloat.  Sooner or later, those hiring illegals will see it is no longer in their interest to look the other way or encourage the behavior as they see the writing on the wall.  In that sense, a semi-recession or flattening of the GDP to near zero (but not negative) will indirectly solve some problems for us which the government is directly unwilling to do.  The self deportation process should have begun with the home construction industry.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

And, as the site's designat

And, as the site's designated money-geek, I'll point out that these 12-20 million people will no longer much use US dollars when they're back in Peso-land. That sudden drop in demand for green paper, along with various other factors might (ok, it will) lead to inflation, which has been effectively masked by things like a promiscuous border lawlessness policy under both "major" parties.
JMR

Worry not about those extra d

Worry not about those extra dollars floating around, the Fed will sop them up either by contracting the money supply or just holding it steady (not increasing it as they normally do) to allow the natural pace of economic expansion to utilize them or the Treasury will sop them up with bonds to finance the national debt. 

When you look at the actual amount of paper out there, it is very small compared to the GDP.  We are talking about $1 trillion in actual paper and coin versus the $13 trillion GDP.  Much of our financial transactions are electronic. 

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” – Marcus Aurelius

Dont you know?

Dont you know our economy was better during the CARTER years. Gees dont You people know anything. Low unemployment more people owning homes all bad. Great economies have gas lines.

FOX NEWS is news.  MSM is Jerry Springer  crap

WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG

Where is the Affordable Housing?

If this economy is so great, where is the affordable housing?

Looking at housing prices, adjusted for inflation, over the last 100 years shows that in the last 10 years, what was a $100,000 house is now selling for $200,000.

How the heck are people supposed to be able to afford a house anymore? Try and find a house in Connecticut for less than $150,000, its almost impossible.

If the economy is so great housing would not be so overpriced. The only people high housing costs benefit are those in the realty industry. They make money based on a percentage of the house's price. The higher the price of the home, the more dollars they take home.

Its a big racket and a major issue that should have been addressed by this administration and this congress yet it has been almost completely ignored.

My God your dense,If i have a

My God your dense,

If i have a house I bought for 100,000 bucks only ten years ago and my investment has doubled I would say the economy is awsome.  Only a filthy, sniveling , socialist hand wringer sees this as a problem.

"how can people afford a house?"

Shut up

Nobody is buying the crap you're peddling.

No Soup For You

maybe you can start by sellin

maybe you can start by selling yours for less

it's called a free market

(ps;  communism does not work i tell you in case you missed History) 

You have got to be kidding rf

You have got to be kidding rf....

You blame the housing prices on Pres. Bush and his administration tooooooo?

You guys are regular unrealistic screamin' meemies......

....comedians almost...if it weren't so La-La Land....