Al Gore Has Not Responded to Professor's Global Warming Wager, Media Mum

Photo of Noel Sheppard.
By Noel Sheppard | June 26, 2007 - 17:39 ET

Savvy NewsBusters readers are quite aware that last week, a professor from the Wharton Business School named Scott Armstrong challenged soon-to-be-Dr. Al Gore to a wager over global warming.

According to the website created by one of Armstrong’s students, the Global Warmingist-in-Chief has yet to respond.

However, there are some updates concerning the matter that folks might find interesting. First, what follows is the actual letter sent to Gore by Armstrong on June 19, 2007 (emphasis added):

Story Continues Below Ad ↓

June 19, 2007

Honorable Albert Gore
2100 West End Avenue
Suite 620
Nashville, TN 37203

Fax: 615-327-2227

Dear Mr. Gore,

A “Global Warming Challenge” is attached. I think the challenge serves our mutual interest in developing better public policy. The terms of the challenge can be easily changed upon mutual agreement.

The primary objective is to improve the application of scientific methods in forecasting climate change and, thus, to use better forecasting methods. In addition, it may provide funding for one of our charities.

The objectives are attainable no matter which of us would “win” the challenge. The fact that we would be joining together in this challenge should draw the attention of scientists to the need for using the best forecasting methods and conducting proper validation tests.

Might you be able to respond by the time of my International Symposium on Forecasting talk on the morning of Wednesday June 27? This could be something as simple as “accept,” “decline,” or “contemplating.” Or it could be a longer response. You, or one of your representatives would be welcome, of course, to be a guest at this conference.

I believe that you already know the chairperson, Kajal Lahiri, from his days in Arlington when your sons played on the same soccer team. If you can attend, Kajal will make provisions for you to respond to this challenge. The conference runs from Monday through mid-day Wednesday.

Would you be interested in receiving a copy of my Principles of Forecasting book? I will be happy to send you a copy if you tell me what address to use.

Sincerely,

J. Scott Armstrong

Professor of Marketing
The Wharton School
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA 19104
armstrong at wharton dot upenn dot edu

Please note that this letter was faxed to Gore, and that Armstrong gave his e-mail address for a simple, timely response.

Maybe Al is waiting for the June 27 deadline, huh?

Regardless, a new article was written about this wager, and published at Spiked Monday (emphasis added throughout):

Armstrong got the idea for the climate change wager from the late Julian Simon, an economist at the University of Maryland who was a friend of Armstrong’s. In 1980, Simon bet the population scaremonger Paul Ehrlich that natural resources were not scarce and shrinking, as Ehrlich and other Malthusian environmentalists claimed. Ehrlich accepted: he chose five metals (copper, chrome, nickel, tin and tungsten) and bet Simon that in 10 years’ time the price of these metals would have risen exponentially due to their continued depletion by human adventure. In fact, when 1990 arrived, the price of all of Ehrlich’s metals had fallen. Simon won the bet and Ehrlich handed him a cheque for $576.07. Armstrong expects to win his bet with Gore, too (that’s if Gore accepts; he hasn’t responded yet). But even if he were to lose, ‘at least I will have started a debate about forecasting’, he tells me.

Armstrong and his colleague Kesten Green, senior research fellow at Monash University in Australia and also an expert on forecasting, have been conducting research into the global-warming forecasts put out by Gore and organisations such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). And they discovered that most climate-change forecasters use bad methodology. They are set to present their findings at an International Symposium on Forecasting in New York on Wednesday. ‘What we have is climate forecasters effectively translating their own opinions into maths’, says Armstrong. ‘Their claims are not built on clear and thorough scientific forecasts but on their own outlooks.’ In Global Warming: Forecasts by Scientists versus Scientific Forecasts – the paper they are presenting at the symposium, which spiked has seen – Armstrong and Green point out that the IPCC’s Working Group One Report predicted ‘dramatic and harmful increases in average world temperatures over the next 92 years’, and they ask: ‘Are these forecasts a good basis for developing public policy?’ The answer provided in their paper is an emphatic ‘no’ (3).

Armstrong and Green – whom I’m sure won’t mind being referred to as forecasting geeks – argue that those who predict sweeping changes in the climate break many of the golden rules of forecasting, as laid out in the 2001 book The Principles of Forecasting. In their paper, they assessed ‘the extent to which long-term forecasts of global average temperatures have been derived using evidence-based forecasting methods’. They surveyed 51 scientists and others involved in making global-warming predictions, asking them to provide scientific articles that contained credible forecasts to underpin their view that temperature will rise rapidly. Most of those surveyed – 30 out of 51 – cited the IPCC Report as the best forecasting source. Yet according to Armstrong and Green, the forecasts in the IPCC Report are not the outcome of scientific forecasting procedures – rather the Report presents ‘the opinions of scientists transformed by mathematics and obscured by complex writing’ (4). Indeed, in their ‘forecasting audit’ of the IPPC Report, Armstrong and Green found that it violated 72 of the principles of forecasting.

Interesting stuff, yes? The article continued:

Such as? ‘Well, some of the principles of forecasting can appear counterintuitive, so bear with me’, says Armstrong. ‘One of the principles is that agreement amongst experts is actually not a very good measure of accuracy. This is especially true if experts are working closely together, and towards a certain goal, as they do in the IPCC. Such an atmosphere does not tend to generate reliable or accurate forecasts. Another principle of forecasting is that when there is uncertainty, your forecasts should be conservative, you should hedge your bets a little bit. The IPCC and others do exactly the opposite: despite their uncertainty, the fact that they don’t know for certain what will happen, they are radical in their predictions of warming and destruction and so on.

Fascinating, wouldn't you agree.

Of course, it is going to be very interesting to see how much attention Armstrong gets. After all, a Google News and LexisNexis search identified not one press outlet covered Armstrong’s challenge to Gore.

Not one.

—Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters.

Comments Policy

All comments are owned by whoever posted them and are subject to our terms of use. They should not be assumed to represent the views of NewsBusters.

Viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I'm not surprised Al Gore is

I'm not surprised Al Gore is afraid to respond, he grows more delusional each day.

Global Warming Wager

Come on boys, is calling Al Gore childish names the best you
can do? From one posting to the next all I read is an endless rant of name
calling by the same commentors. It's like you are all on the same football team
and after the last big game of the year you get drunk around the campfire and
take turns humiliating the towel boy who wears thick glasses. Your
ExxonMobil furnished-talking points are getting old and all too
transparent. Why don't you offer factual arguments to back up your
opinions instead of regurgitating long-since debunked myths such as "Al
Gore invented the internet", "Love Story is about Al &
Tipper", or changing his name to GlobAl Gore or calling him the high priest
of anti-Christian religion (Where did that come from? Facts please).

<looking outside into the

<looking outside into the night sky for an approaching mass-extinction asteroid ... or flying pigs> 

A liberal is ... <gulp> ... asking for FACTS!!??!!

Duck and cover, folks! The end is near!

Facts?

Read the responses by your ExxonMobil gang to this thread and look for facts. All I see is a bunch of name calling. I provided factual responses to myths.

Why don't YOU grow an intelle

Why don't YOU grow an intellectual spine and answer THIS simple question:

Who are YOU shilling for?

And...why is it that if I so much as fill up at an Exxon station, I am to be SHUT UP and SILENCED...but I cannot DARE question YOUR funding sources, or those of the organizations and scientists that support your religion of guilt? 

What's next, plagiarist?  Are you going to camp out at an Exxon station and summarily execute those who partake of their products in your bid to drive the United States into total penury (all to assuage your personal guilt, of course...)?

Do you have anything else to add other than "EXXON IS EVIL!!!   EXXON IS EVIL!!!  EXXON IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?  (Never mind, of course, that ExxonMobil will have to be around a very long time to even approach the body count left behind by Socialism/Communist governments and regimes...)

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Am I a shill?

I am only an individual with no financial support from anyone other than myself. I stumbled onto your website and couldn't believe what I was reading so I decided to comment and see what kind of response I would get. From the responses I'm getting you obviously don't want any to take me seriously. In fact, your defamatory methods probably will have the opposite effect. You have the right to buy gas anywhere you want and I'm not trying to silence you and am not calling you or ExxonMobil evil. I am only pointing out the fact that ExxonMobile, who funds many global warming skeptics gives your organization a great deal of funding and I think it only fair to your readers that this be disclosed. For example here is a link to ExxonMobile's corporate contributions. Read it an see that in 2006 ExxonMobile, by their own accounting, contributed $52,000 to the Media Research Center, you parent company: http://www.exxonmobi...

Brewski

B,

Actually, you're not being very honest, are you? After all, you stumbled onto this website, and disingenuously cut-and-pasted the work of another writer without any attribution given to that person.

At that moment, you permanently lost any credibility that is usually granted newcomers before they themselves prove undeserving of such, as well as ceded the right to affect the air of superiority you so disgracefully continue to display.

Moreover, in your cut-and-paste, you chose to eliminate all of the links to articles the real author was directing his readers to, thereby making it impossible for our readers to validate the real intent behind the real writer's piece. And, you cut off his final paragraph wherein he had positive things to say about the subject (Bryson) which you didn't want readers to observe.

Now, you continue to spout vitriol that appears to be taken directly from netroots websites, while accusing everyone here of being on Exxon's take.

And you want to be taken seriously?

Brewski, honestly, you really should stick with DU, DKos, MMA, HP, FDL, and TP, for they appreciate the nonsense you spew more than folks here that are interested in an honest debate, not the disingenuous, plagiaristic invective you offer. 

With all due disrespect.   ns 

Noel,Is it true that MRC rece

Noel,

Is it true that MRC receives funding from Exxon? 

Hmm, didn't realize that.  Very interesting.

Where have you been? It's b

Where have you been? It's been openly disclosed by lefties here a few times since I came. And for the record, a measly $52 grand is no-doubt tiny compared to various big government grants (remember, I can boycott Exxon, but I can not boycott Form 1040, ok?) given to various enviro-agenda groups from my taxes. Is that "very interesting" too??
JMR

I'm sure.  It's not a big de

I'm sure.  It's not a big deal, just interesting.  I've never heard that before. 

Does add some spin to the Newsbusters anti-Al Gore crusade I must say.

I think it makes the Republ

I think it makes the Republican candidates they ignore interesting. We all have our own take. But the idea that Exxon affects anything _I_ say is laughable. I make fun of anti-science idiots for free, even though the likes of Exxon SHOULD be paying me for this... Happily, a couple of NB denizens helped yesterday with an illustration or two of why the Sun might actually matter even more than vaunted, evil SUVs. This is the same Sun that appears to be the exact size of the Moon...You've seen Jay Leno's (stolen idea from Howard Stern) "Jaywalking" segments, right? What do you think the average person thinks? And is the average person likely to learn the truth from Algore, the news media, or sarcasmo about the Sun's actual size? I'm with sarcasmo, but I'm biased...
JMR

Can one of our lefties plea

Can one of our lefties please click either/both of the links in the cloaked post above, and then talk to me about how to get the truth to people about how a tiny change in the Sun might -- even from 93 million or so miles away -- have an effect on the Earth's climate beyond even CO2 emissions from the dreaded Sports Utility Vehicle?
JMR

So $52 grand from Exxon is

So $52 grand from Exxon is worth mentioning as a possible source of bias for NB. Is ~$20 million of my taxes spent on the study of farm-smells a possible source of bias for scientists aware that their results have political implications which might result in either keeping or losing their jobs?
JMR

Sarc

J,

Exactly. In fact, if you looked at the charitable donations of XOM, they give to everybody. You name it, they contribute to it: colleges, high schools, public broadcasting, etc., etc.

In reality, what these morons who continue to discuss XOM's connection with AGW ignore is that if such a connection automatically removes all veracity and credibility from your cause or impartiality, there are no credible entities! Zero.

Also, my understanding of this contribution by XOM is that it was a few years ago, and they hired the MRC to do some research. At least, that's what I've read on the subject.

Regardless, $50,000 in the grand scheme of things isn't a huge amount of money, is it?   ns

If Newsbusters received $50,0

If Newsbusters received $50,000 in 2006, it would amount to .036% of Exxon's total charitable contributions for 2006.

Looks like a mighty thin straw to grasp on to, doesn't it?

Pot meet kettle; &quot;you ge

Pot meet kettle; "you get drunk around the campfire", posted from none other than brewski01

Just to ensure my post is as shallow in thought as yours is in whinning, I shall post no rebuttal to your multitude of empty, baseless questions.

"Too bad Ignorance isn't painful..."

No rebuttle?

Proves my point.

Al Gore pays himself for the

Al Gore pays himself for the carbon credits he purchases.  As someone who believes in anthropogenic global warming and is concerned about the planet, how do you feel about that?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54528

Money for bet

That being the case, he should have more than enough to cover the bet at least 100 times!!

Carbon Credits

Al Gore is a chairman of Generation Investment Management. The company manages money and makes investments for its clients, but does not own any of the companies it recommends. As part of the compensation package for senior managment, carbon credits are PURCHASED for them by Generation Investment Managment. Credits are not purchased from any company they own because they don't own any of the companies. The claim that he buys carbon credits from himself is just another myth being spread by the ExxonMobil-funded NewsBusters gang. You should do your homework before you put pen to paper.

Funding sources, please

And who are YOUR funding sources? 

And do you have ANY ideas other than "EXXON IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?  (Never mind that governments are time tested and proven to be far more deadly than ANY corporation...)

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

ski 01,Someone is making some

ski 01,

Someone is making some evil money here. Stock is ownership. Oh algore works for free as charman of GIM.. Ain't no pen on paper around here.

Evil money?

Al Gore does not work for free. He gets paid for his work. GIM only buys stock for its clients, it does not hold any for itself. GIM purchases carbon offsets for its employees. Read their website, and check their SEC filing.

Exxon/Mobile talking points?I

Exxon/Mobile talking points?

I wouldn't talk about anyone. And sure wouldn't make fun of conspiracy nuts.

Part of the lunacy.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

ExxonMobil & NewBusters

Didn't ExxonMobil fund your organization to the tune of $440,000 in 1994? Their continued funding of Media Research Center, NewsBusters, CNSNew, et al is a matter of public record. Don't you know who you are shilling for?

For brewski

Who are YOU shilling for, brewski?  And why is it that I CANNOT, at ANY cost, under ANY circumstances, question that?  Not very intellectually honest of you, is it?

By the way...

If the Kyoto Protocol is a GLOBAL solution to global warming (oh, I am sorry, the more intellectually bankrupt among you call it "climate change"), why are such nations as China, Mexico, and India exempt from it?

Why does the Kyoto Protocol NOT address tropical deforestation anywhere, even though such activity is said to contribute 20% of the world's total greenhouse gas emissions?

Why was it that I saw SNOW north of the Brooks Range in August 2004?

Why did it snow in Lisbon and New Delhi in the winter of 2005-2006?  Or in Johannesburg in the austral winter of July 2006?

Why was I chipping ice off of my truck in south Texas this past winter?  I've been hearing this whine about evil global warming for the past 20 years now!

What human activity was causing Exit Glacier and Mendenhall Glacier to begin melting in 1780?

Why did it snow south and east of San Antonio for Christmas 2004?

Why is it the world's record temperature was recorded in 1922?

Why do you whiners/complainers/religionists not fully back nuclear power for U.S. power generation needs as a substitute, when France gets 78.5% of their electricity from nuclear power?

Well?

By the way, aren't you the plagiarist that got impaled by Noel Sheppard the other day?

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

And yet another Troll is chased off by fact-wielding Newsbusters

And yet another Troll is chased off by fact-wielding Newsbusters. ;-)

Shilling?

You have every right to ask if I get funding from anyone for anything I say. I tried to answer this question previously. Once again let me say I work for no one but myself.

As far as I know all the statistics you have quoted are correct. But that only shows you have a lack of understanding about global warming. Scientists often use the term "climate change" instead of global
warming. This is because as the earth's average temperature climbs,
winds and ocean currents move heat around the globe in ways that can
cool some areas, warm others, and change the amount of rain and snow
falling. As a result, the climate changes differently in different
areas.

Yes, I was busted copying material for my first posting here and for not giving credit where due. I admitted to it and will be more diligent in the future. To be fair, the discussion board I copied it from did not identify the author or the source. I looked up information on the person who had been interviewed and it checked out. My bad judgement in copying the material doesn't make its content invalid.  I stick by the findings.

So is it global wamring or

So is it global wamring or is it global cooling. Me no understand.

"This is because as the earth's average temperature climbs,
winds and ocean currents move heat around the globe in ways that can
cool some areas, warm others, and change the amount of rain and snow
falling."

This is the biggest load of bull hockey I've ever seen. While the earth's heat can be shifted, it would also suggest a balance. Your double speak won't cut the mustard around here.

Umm... actually the Union o

Umm... actually the Union of Concerned Scientists had something to say about the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide & Global Change (www.co2science.org):

Funding: The Center is extremely secretive of its funding sources, stating that it is their policy not to divulge it funders. There is evidence for a strong connection to the Greening Earth Society (ergo Western Fuels Association).

Sorry to burst your bubble there...

Guilt strikes again

And what are that site's funding sources?

Steve, if I was as filled with guilt as you are, I would have committed suicide long ago.  How your heart manages to beat with that crushing weight of guilt on it, I have no idea.

Anyways...any answers to my GW questions yet?  Or are you still busy plotting on how to steal my truck from me (for my own good, of course!) and replace it with something YOU deem that I need?

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Look, buddy: I have answere

Look, buddy: I have answered your questions many times. You are confused between mean temperatures and statistical fluctuations. That's all there is to it. Look at average temperatures, and average sea levels, and average carbon dioxide levels.

This is not that hard. If you make one smart comment, I don't get confused and think that you are smart. If you have one day of cold weather, you shouldn't get confused and think that the Earth is cooling.

Oh, and I am not planning to steal your truck, although I think you would do better in a paddywagon.

One cold day? How about sever

One cold day? How about several weeks of very unusual cold weather throughout the country during *Spring.* I've lived in Florida for 20+ years and it had NEVER been that cold during that time of year. 

I forgot one thing, re: the

I forgot one thing, re: the suicide comment:

Go f--- yourself.

CO2Science.org

Hey Steve,

Thanks for joining the fray.  Perhaps we can herd these guys into a real debate and not just a diatribe of name calling.

CO@Science.org (The Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change) is owned by the Idso family of Arizona. According docuemnts on file ExxonMobil has contributed $90,000 to them since 1998. Humm, ExxonMobil. It just keeps popping up everywhere there are GS deniers.

*new steve2007 Sa

*new

steve2007 Says:
June 27, 2007 - 02:32

I forgot one thing, re: the suicide comment:

Go f--- yourself.

NOT LIKELY.

Funny, I've read tons of mate

Funny, I've read tons of material from GS "deniers" and rarely do I see Exxon mentioned. In fact, the people who mention it the most are Kool-Aid drinking Gia worshipers who in lieu of debate accuse everyone not also brainwashed as being tools of Exxon. It's not rare for groups who have similar opinions to help each other out, everyone does it, stop pretending that no GW boosters do.

Another point, no one here mentioned Exxon until you brought it up.

Funny you should bring up name-calling, since that's basically all you've done. 98% or your argument is permutations of "Exxon made them do it!"

For the other side of the story in case anyone is interested:

http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/articles/V9/N39/EDIT.jsp

http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/subject/questions/1999/morefunding.jsp

Sorry to burst *your* bubble

Sorry to burst *your* bubble but the so-called "Union" is a political advocacy consort underwritten by several agenda driven groups but especially the Tides Foundation which has several for profit business spinoffs to its name as well as a long history of sending cash to other left-wing groups such as the Natural Resources Defense Council, Greenpeace and the Ruckus Society.

The UCS is based at Harvard and in 1984 organized a 15-city tour to get Walter Mondale elected. They also opposed Star Wars using statistics later shown to be faulty and even later tried to stop the stealth bomber from being built. 

UCS = liberal advocacy group that receives large donations from left-wing organizations.

How pure is your pure?

Look at the board of UCS.

Look at the board of UCS. The scientists there have extremely good credentials. It is a political organization, but at least you won't find junk science there, like at www.co2science.org.

Oooh, &quot;good crendentials

Oooh, "good crendentials!" That makes them right about everything now! You could get "good" crendentials out of a gumball machine these days.

"It is a political organization, but at least you won't find junk science there, like at www.co2science.org."

Brilliant argument, I guess you win. Restating your opinion is just *so* convincing!

This is one of the problems

This is one of the problems with the general public's understanding of science these days: an inability to determine the legitimacy of a source. All these web sites and think tanks which have been set up to impersonate and undermine real science are given the same credence as quality sources.

As trite as this may sound, I

As trite as this may sound, I concur with your observation, but apply it towards the vast number of Global Warming enthusiasts.

Concensus is not science fact.   Innacurate statements and methodology contained within the IPCC report and Al Gore's version of Global Warming do not necessarily make an entire hypothesis incorrect but it does bring into question the veracity of that report in total.

Before imposing legislative "fixes" with their resultant billions to trillions in dollars cost to our economy, I want better science, hard science, science not as appearantly driven by personal bias and gain regardless of which "side".

Global Warming has not withstood the test of time nor debate to call it science fact.  The fact is discussion on Global Warming is squelched,as it is, as some desire, a fait accompli.  I'll bet many Liberals feel that way about Bush/Cheney and WMD's and the Iraq war.  For those who believe they were shortchanged and fooled concerning Iraq, why then deny the same process with Global Warming?  The only reason is personal gain, which can be psychologically and/or monetarily.  Then there is your admonition over intellectual ability to analyze the given situation.  I couldn't agree more about the masses desire or abilty to analyze and verify the Global Warming enthusiast position.  It feels good to be nice to Mother Nature and stick it to "the man", to be part of many vocal others who agree with you, and, to have someone else do all the thinking for you so you don't have to be bothered. 

I'm sure many Global Warming enthusiasts are well intentioned, but, their disregard fact as is know today (unlike WMD's in Iraq before the war vs. after the war) concerning the data combined with incontrovertible "done deal" attitude is disingenuous, lazy, unscientific and economically foolish.  Not allowing debate actually scares me more than if Global Warming is a reality as put forth by Al Gore.  That is a nail in the coffin of both science and the (anti-mobile vulgus) constitutional republic known as America.

I watched one of the Union of

I watched one of the Union of Concerned Scientist (Bill Nye) debate Richard Lindzen on "the science is settled". The only one who looked dumber than Nye was Hiedi Cullen. I'm not impressed.

Actually anyone who says the science is settled for anything in science. Is either not thinking. Or should stop calling himself a scientist.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Dan

Dan,

That was a pretty funny debate. If Nye is representative of the UCS, this is an organization whose opinions should be completely ignored, for Bill Nye the Science Guy knows as much about this issue as Bill Clinton does monogamy!  :-)   ns

Using people as the UCS to

Using people as the UCS to discredit people as CO2science.org is a joke.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Using people as the UCS to

If Bill Nye and Heidi Cullen are their scientist. Using people as the UCS to discredit people as CO2science.org is a joke.

I remember Lindzen's comment on Cullen. It's hard to debate Ms Cullen. When she doesn't say what science she's citing, or what it says.

And his comment to Nye. If you're that certain what that report says, are you willing to place a wager on it. At which point, Nye backed down.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Isn't IPCC a child of the UN?

Isn't IPCC a child of the UN? Those wonderful people who gave us food for oil. Didn't Hanson take a big grant fron Heinz foundation? Didn't Gore's Reinventing Government program transfer a national secuity oil reserve to Occidental Pet? Who's family owns big time stock in that oil company? You're caught up in a fantasy but only want to see big bad Exxon.

Al Gore. the other oil man.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Gore doesn't own Occi stock

Al Gore has never owned stock in Occidental Petroleum. But, his late father did, all of which was sold nearly 7 years ago.
His mom had a small number of shares which were disposed by the trustee of her estate. Al Gore was not the trustee.

The myth that Gore owns Occi stock was started in a USA Newspaper article by Peter Schweizer, an employe of (yep, you guessed it) the ExxonMoble-funded Hoover Institution. Once again, an attempt to divert attention away from global warming and discredit and demonize Al Gore. See a pattern here?

Gee. He sold it 7 years ago?

Gee. He sold it 7 years ago? Thank you. When was he VP? When was his Reinventing Government program? When was Elk Hills?

in 1995 Gore had indeed called specifically for the privatization of Elk Hills, which had been the Navy's strategic reserve

Newsbusters also took a donation from me. (I support their work.) I don't remember a pledge to use my talking points.

Now Gore did sell his vote on Gulf War I. For time on camera. And Gore did take that money from those Chinese nuns. Gore did try to slander a scientist who disagreed with him. Happer was replaced for daring to disagree with gore on the Ozone Hole. ("I was told that science was not going to intrude on policy,")

Do you see a pattern?

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Oh, Beer. You guys over at th

Oh, Beer. You guys over at the Gore Campaign headquarters, plan on having any more U'Wa indians arrested?

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

For not being a shill for Al

For not being a shill for Al G., you sure do have all his talking points covered....

Wasn't Al the President of the Senate 7 years ago?, isn't that when the Senate voted 95-0 NOT to vote on the Kyoto treaty? So, that is Al's "leadership" on Kyoto and fighting Global Warming? 

Of course, we all now know, it was Bush's fault... even though he wasn't POTUS yet.  Facts, schmacts...... Bush killed Kyoto (even thought the Constitution is quite clear that only the Senate can ratify treaties), thankfully most liberals will never read that pesky document.

Congress: Do your Duty!  Enforce Article 4 Sect 4 of the Constitution!

Since when does receiving mon

Since when does receiving money from a like-minded group or individual constitute "shilling?" You ever heard of birds of a feather flock together? Did it never occur to you that Exxon donates money to this site, Media Research Center, etc. because Exxon is a business and these sites are mainly pro free market? Would it make you feel better if they only accepted donations from groups ideologically opposed to this sites mission and philosophy? Well, maybe you would, because NB would go bankrupt and you'd have one less enemy to contend with.

P.S. And this is Brent's "organization" not mine or Unsanes.

Brewski's cross of guilt

I don't expect a pathetic drive-by like you to respond, but here goes:

Why is it that if I fill up my truck at an Exxon station, my observations, political, scientific or otherwise, do not count...

BUT, whenever one of you guilt-ridden GW alarmists comes out with new information from a scientific study or anything else scientific that supports your point of view, why are we NOT allowed at ANY costs to question the funding, the motivations, or any other potential influencing factors of their work?

OK, rant done, for now.  Carry on with that cross of guilt, brewski...

MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!!  THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!

Source of funding

You are welcome to ask about funding. I will try to honestly answer all questions I can. Ask away - you are allowed!

The only reason I mention ExxonMobile so much is their name keeps poping up over and over as I research global warming- sceptical websites. I've found them many other places, not just Media Research Center (Newsbusters, CNSNews, et al). Here's a group which I don't think is part of your organization. The National Center for Policy Analysis, an organization that has received over $390,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998, employes Sterling Burnett as a Sr Fellow. On Fox television, Burnett compared watching Al Gore’s movie, An Inconvenient Truth, to watching a movie by Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbel to learn about Nazi Germany. Just more of the same GW denier talk. Demonize the messenger, ignore the facts.

And again, I don't care where you gas up. Feel free to buy from anyone you want. You have to get you gas somewhere. I do wonder why you think I am 'guilt- ridden'. I don't feel guilty. Please explain why you think I am 'guilt-ridden'.

You are guilt ridden becaus

You are guilt ridden because you believe your existence is screwing the planet. Or maybe, it's MY existence that is screwing the planet? In which case you feel guilty because you haven't done enough to stop ME from screwing the planet. You guys want to tell everyone else how to live and your guilt will not end until you accomplish that goal.

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

I hardly call &quot;delusiona

I hardly call "delusional" a childish name. "Poo-poo head" would be a childish name.

Oh, and I don't own the site or have any financial stake, I only visit so contributions to the site from anyone or anywhere means nothing to me.

some facts...

http://www.surfacest...

Check out this link. It shows how "scientific" weather stations are

Global Warming

Ooh, ooh! Can I have this one?

Why don't you offer factual arguments to back up your
opinions instead of regurgitating long-since debunked myths

Brewski,

After you sober up, consider this: someone who boasts easily-debunkable statements does not have any credibility, duh.

Try the 1-1/2 year old challenge from junkscience.com, and quit watching SeeBS. Oh yeah, and do some research.

That was fun and easy.

  Ignorance is bliss. It's easier to repeat a mindless slogan than to do some actual research.

Perhaps you should do a lit

Perhaps you should do a little more searching on this website. Factual content abounds here concerning global warming. Just because one thread doesn't include all the facts, doesn't mean this website is devoid of it. Do yourself a favor and do the research before you just drop by and start making lunatic claims.

Secondly, calling global warming, "climate change" is unfair. This planet's climate has been changing... let's see... carry the one.... for as long as it has existed.... If you didn't know, that's a very long time. To say now, at this point in the history of the planet, that it is going through climate change, it begs the question, "And where have you been?"

Of course the Earth's clima

Of course the Earth's climate has been changing for a long time. The difference, though, is the timescale of the current change. In particular, it's the fact that in less than a hundred years CO2 levels have gone up by 35% to levels unprecedented in the past half million years. In the past, much smaller changes have taken over a thousand years. This is what worries people.

&quot;the fact that in less

"the fact that in less than a hundred years CO2 levels have gone up by 35% to levels unprecedented in the past half million years"

Just curious, where are you getting your information from?

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

Since, you asked, here is

Since, you asked, here are some experimental results consistent with what I have said. It is all from the ORNL web site:

  • Ice core data which goes back a half million years.
  • Ice core data for 1832-1978.
  • Mauna Loa observatory data for 1958-2004.

CO2 has dosent raise temps. I

CO2 has dosent raise temps. Its level increases after temp increases. This is a mute argument. CO2 comes from more than just man. The largest contribuitor is the oceans, triggered by sunlight and temps. Also volcanos, of which the mid alantic ridge is in a constant state of eruption, let alone surface eruptions that are almost constant. Man is not resopnsiable for a 35% increase in CO2. Not possable. One should concentrate on water vapor to control green house effects.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

You are misinterpreting the

You are misinterpreting the CO2 / temperature correlation results over history. I have explained this so many times, but I will do it once more. Yes, those big CO2 bumps in the Vostok data are caused when temperatures increase and release CO2 from the oceans. However, this CO2, through the greenhouse effect, acts as positive feedback, causing the Earth to heat up significantly more. In fact, the total amount of warming during each of these cycles cannot be explained were it not for this CO2 release.

The current rise in CO2 is different from those in the past: it is faster and bigger. And yes, all signs indicate man is responsible for a 35% increase. We're certainly not responsible for 35% of CO2 emissions each year, but over time a smaller percentage will build up if there is no corresponding sink increase.

Just curious... what about th

Just curious... what about the effects of the Sun on the Earth's temperature and CO2 readings?  I understand what you said about positive feedback systems.  Does the Sun cause CO2 to increase?  Can solar activity be primarily responsible for temperature increases, with or without effects contributed by CO2, since CO2 concentrations have dramatically stabillized (though increasing) since 1832.  Why were ice core CO2 concentrations so dramatically variable in the past as reported on http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/ftp/trends/co2/vostok.icecore.co2?

Another question: How do the ice core CO2 values in Antartica relate to atmospheric CO2 concentrations in Hawaii?  Are they "apples to apples" or "apples to oranges" comparative data?

stratman,Solar cycles are 1

stratman,

Solar cycles are 11 years long, and since there is no 11 year climate cycle on Earth, that effectively rules them out as a driver. Also, the energy flux from the Sun has been measured to vary by less than 0.1%, which is too small to affect climate.

The reason CO2 concentrations varied on longer timescales is believed to be variations in the Earth's orbital motion, known as Milankovitch cycles. As the Earth's orbit changes, so does the flux of solar radiation, and heating occurs. This causes CO2 to be released from the oceans, which effectively amplifies this heating.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you ask whether solar activity can be primarily responsible for temperature increases, since CO2 concentrations have stabilized since 1832. I wouldn't say CO2 levels have stabilized since 1832: the vostok ice cores are over much longer timescales than the more recent ones, so while there may be more fluctuation between consecutive data points, they are separated by longer times, and the stabilization you are referring to is illusory. On the contrary, the dramatic increase in CO2 levels since 1832 makes the current period seem rather unstable.

I haven't been able to find anything written about atmospheric mixing of gases such as CO2 yet. However, if you look at the ice core starting in 1832 and compare it to the Mauna Loa data, there is a roughly 20 year overlap period in the data. If you compare the results over those 20 years, they are very consistent with each other, which suggests that they are "apples to apples" comparative data.

I am not misinterperting. You

I am not misinterperting. You are mis construing the data to fit your perception. Humans, it has been shown, can be responsible for no more than 0.02% of the CO2 in the increase. That in its self shows you are misled, or just plain irresponsible.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

It would be very easy for m

It would be very easy for me if I took your approach to making arguments, which is to make up numbers and not provide any good references. However, I have a bit more integrity than that.

steve2007...you do realize th

steve2007...you do realize that you are in the minority of people on earth dont you? More than 70% of people think man made warming is just a get rich quick scheme dreamed up by algore and hollywood. If it wasent for GW, out of work actors would be, ...well, out of work. And algore needed a job. He was so far out with the loony left, not even the university would keep him around.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

steve, you are misusing and m

steve, you are misusing and misinterpreting statistics.  For example you have two countries.  In year one of measuring, the GDP of country A is 50 euros and the GDP of country B is 50,000,000 euros.  The next year the GDP of country A increases to 75 euros and the GDP of country B increases to 51,000,000 euros.  Expressed as a percentage, country A had a 50% increase in GDP, while country B had only a 2% increase.  Now, who had a better economy?  The country whose GDP increased by 25 euros, or the country whose GDP increased by 1 million euros?  Percentages don't always mean anything, and in your case they do not.  Your claimed 35% increase in carbon dioxide is meaningless.  How much of the atmosphere in parts per million of carbon dioxide were there at the start of measuring?  How much of the atmosphere was this percentagewise?  How much of the atmosphere in parts per million is carbon dioxide today?  How much of the atmosphere is this percentage wise?  Your alleged 35% increase in the amount of carbon dioxide is a very miniscule increase in relationship to other atmospheric gasses.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx.  An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx."  Ronald Reagan

MikeB,Your analogy is somew

MikeB,

Your analogy is somewhat exaggerated. CO2 makes up roughly 5% of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, not 1 part in a million as you suggest. A while back i presented a plausibility argument that a 35% increase in CO2 could cause a 1C increase in temperature. I will re-post below:

Allow me to illustrate this using some crude estimations. The numbers I am using have all been quoted by posters on NB. First, carbon dioxide levels have risen from about 280 ppm at the beginning of the
industrial revolution to 380 ppm today. Also, 280 ppm is about as high as carbon dioxide levels ever got over warm/cold cycles during the past half million years. So it can be argued that humans have raised carbon dioxide levels by about 35%.

Now, the greenhouse effect is the process whereby infrared radiation is emitted from the Earth's surface, absorbed by greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, and re-emitted, partly back down to Earth, and partly to space. This extra radiation that hits Earth's surface raises its temperature. The atmosphere heats the Earth in this manner by about 33C. Now, to address your point about the water vapor, let us suppose that the contribution to this effect by carbon dioxide is only 5% of the total. Then, if humans have increased carbon dioxide levels by about 35%, the increase in greenhouse gas levels is 0.05*0.35 ~ 2%.

Finally, although the system is non-linear and much more complicated, we can make a very crude calculation, and say that a 2% increase in greenhouse gases would lead to a corresponding increase in the amount by which the greenhouse effect heats the Earth, or roughly 0.02*33C ~ 1C. If on the other hand, we were to double carbon dioxide levels from pre-industrial levels, we would see a roughly 2C increase.

Despite the roughness of these estimations, the results are pretty close to the numbers reported as predictions from climate scientists. The point, however, is that one cannot simply rule out the possibility of carbon dioxide playing a role in heating the planet out of sheer incredulity when making comparisons to the role of water vapor.

Steve, your reading comprehen

Steve, your reading comprehension is lacking.  I did not imply that carbon dioxide made up one part in a million of greenhouse gasses, nor even one part in a million of atmospheric gasses.  I believe the current figure of carbon dioxide in atmosphere is 300+ parts per million.  That is immaterial.  What is material is your claim that there has been a 35% increase in carbon dioxide.  Even if that claim is true, carbon dioxide, at 300 ppm only makes up 3 hundredths of one per cent of atmosphere.  A NASA website gives a figure of .01 to .1 % for carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Now, I hope you reread my previous post.  Read it s - l - o - w - l - y, so you can comprehend it.  Even if carbon dioxide increased by 35%, it is still only between one hundredth to one tenth of a percent of the atmosphere.  Your statement made it sound as if there were now a huge amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, when there is not.  That was also the point of my economic analogy.

There have been other articles which indicate that the relationship between an increase in carbon dioxide, and atmospheric heating is logarithmic.  Which means, that for each marginal increase in carbon dioxide the amount of increased heat which the atmosphere can retain is smaller.

"A communist is someone who reads Marx.  An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx."  Ronald Reagan

Please don't be contemptuou

Please don't be contemptuous to me. What matters for the sake of my argument (or any other argument concerning the greenhouse effect) is the fraction of greenhouse gases made up by carbon dioxide; not the fraction of total gases. By definition, the non-greenhouse gases are transparent to infrared radiation.

I said I assumed linearity as it was the easiest assumption to make, but was most likely not correct. As a simple plausibility argument, this is a fair assumption. I would be interested to hear how this logarithmic dependence comes about though. Perhaps you could send me a couple of those articles?

In any case, the actual case is much more complicated, and the atmosphere must be treated as a multi-layer system. A more detailed explanation of carbon dioxide's role can be found here and here. Or is the American Institute of Physics biased as well?

Seems the oceans are the domi

Seems the oceans are the dominate engine of climate. Greenhouse increases are in the infrared wavelength. (We don't see the heat radiating out at night.) Infrared is absorbed near the surface in the upper few inches, where it's dealt with via evaporation. The sun produces energy along all wavelengths. And penetrates and is absorbed to greater than 100 feet.

NASA has stated it's numbers are adjusted by it's computer model. Consequently they are less than reliable as they're not raw data. This was discussed a few weeks ago.

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”   H.L. Mencken

Seems the oceans are the do

Seems the oceans are the dominate engine of climate. Greenhouse
increases are in the infrared wavelength. (We don't see the heat
radiating out at night.) Infrared is absorbed near the surface in the
upper few inches, where it's dealt with via evaporation. The sun
produces energy along all wavelengths. And penetrates and is absorbed
to greater than 100 feet.

Huh?  What point are you trying to make?