If you’ve been watching the mainstream media coverage of Michael Moore’s soon-to-be-released schlock-umentary on America’s health care system, you’ve probably been led to believe he is some sort of political genius.
But that’s certainly not the case. Moore used a handful of failings of the American health care system to make a case for a socialized program in the United States.
Moore targets the health insurers and the pharmaceutical industry with a parade of hardship stories, exploiting a few desperate people to make lots of left-wing points. He overly glamorizes programs in Canada, the United Kingdom, France and Cuba to convince his viewers there are no hardships in any of their systems.
We meet the doctor with the fancy car, the French couple living the “middle class” life of luxury. What we don’t get to meet are the foreign tax men soaking the citizens to pay for the mighty welfare states. And we don’t see Moore packing up his moving van and relocating to any one of those lovely locales.
Despite its socialist agenda, the movie is somewhat amusing, but not all of the humor was intentional. Informed viewers will find themselves laughing at Moore and his thinly veiled propaganda.
Comments Policy
Health care system in US is
January 15, 2008 - 15:29 ET by GordmanHealth care system in US is a complicated issue, I am afraid it's too complicated and lasts for too long. I find it hard to believe even now. I had to find for alternatives for not depending on this constantly failing system and found in internet pharmacy a reliable help.
Moore's Lies
June 22, 2007 - 18:36 ET by exLibIt would be one thing if the guy just said our healthcare system could be better and that HMOs are really not the way to go.
Instead he has to be a total deciever and try to fool people who would not know any better that foreign Healthcare systems are "Better" just because they don't "Cost" the "Poor" anything.
However, a friend of mine from the UK said point-blank that if his mom could have got to the states she would be alive today.
My Aunt went through a horrible time in Germany waiting a year for an operation. She's ok now, but to wait a year for an operation?
I've heard plenty of stories about people in Cananda coming to the US for operations because they couldn't wait.
CUBA? Then he has to go way out there and say Artists are "Free" to speak out against Castro?
No Crediblity.
It's a sad comment on the sta
June 22, 2007 - 18:48 ET by Chris NormanIt's a sad comment on the state of political debate when everytime that far-left whack job, Michael Moore, makes a movie about something, the earth is supposed to move. What other outer fringe figure causes the "mainstream" to debate whatever lunacies he advocates? Er - besides Gore...
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
But The New York Times says
June 22, 2007 - 19:07 ET by Night WatchmanBut The New York Times says.
"Mr. Moore sets out to challenge some widely held American notions about
socialized medicine. He finds that British doctors are happy and well
paid, that Canadians don’t have to wait very long in emergency rooms,
and that the French are not taxed into penury. “What’s your biggest
expense after the house and the car?” he asks an upper-middle-class
French couple. “Ze feesh,” replies the wife. “Also vegetables.”
Moore Lies
June 22, 2007 - 19:12 ET by exLibSee above, also...
I think Moore could rustle up a person or two who thought life under Hitler was awesome and how his family was taken care of and all that.
The MSM has proven one thing to me over the last decade. You can always find the people you need to interview to back up your already made up mind.
"British doctors are hap
June 23, 2007 - 00:57 ET by Unsane"British doctors are happy and well paid" no doubt from working under the table. You know, from telling people that they don't have to wait the full three months for (fill in the blank procedure), if you pay me in cash under the table.
"Canadians don't have to wait very long in emergency rooms" 1) define very long and 2) that's when the doctors/nurses are NOT on strike. Oh, and the Canadians are poorer than their American conuterparts by C$7200 according to a December 2005 edition of The Economist.
"The French are not taxed into penury" Well, I realize that you see the government as a Big Nanny, there to pamper your every need, but I don't fee l the need to steal from other people to the tune of 50%+ of income. Nor should the government be responsible for 50% of GDP. Nor is it a healthy sign when 75% of their 15-24 years olds say their career ambition is to work for the government. Not to mention that all that government coddling has driven them deep into debt. (Before you whine to me about our debt - you won't, as a sad drive-by poster - you know what is causing that? Irresponsible spending on both sides of the aisle, and a lazy electorate.)
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Moore likes to make accusatio
June 22, 2007 - 19:45 ET by MPayneMoore likes to make accusations and then never really bring his story full circle. This makes his "docmentary" style not very effective except to Libs who are out looking for problems. I have had Canadian friends who live across from Detroit and say they would not hesitate to come to the US for treatment in an emergency. I think the waiting list was 6 months for one procedure they were looking at in Canada...
" Courage - a perfect sensibility of the measure of danger, and a mental willingness to endure it. " - William T. Sherman
"I think the waiting lis
June 22, 2007 - 20:14 ET by mandrake"I think the waiting list was 6 months for one procedure they were looking at in Canada..."
I have two questions about that statement....
1) What exactly was the procedure? Was it life threatening?
2) How much did it cost them? Did their insurance cover it?
crickets again...I keep askin
June 22, 2007 - 20:56 ET by mandrakecrickets again...
I keep asking for specific examples of where the Canadian health care system has failed and just get references to waiting lists. I am 55 yrs old. My father is 83 and my father-in-law is 89...maybe they lived that long cause they had to wait?..not bad for a commie health care system eh!
mandrakes denials
June 22, 2007 - 21:37 ET by SportPoliticsYes, of course it's all a rumor mandrake, you idiot.
cbs 2005
[Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.
"It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've paid for the car, but you can't have it right now," said Jane Pelton. Rather than leave daughter Emily in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic in Vancouver, with no help from the government.
"Every day we're paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it's just not there," said Pelton.
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.
He(Dr. Brian Day), says he got so frustrated at the long delays to book surgeries at the public hospitals in Vancouver that he built his own private clinic.
Meanwhile, the average wait for surgical or specialist treatment is nearly 18 weeks, up from 9.3 weeks in 1993, according to the Fraser Institute, a right-wing public policy think tank in Vancouver. A Fraser study last year said the average wait for an orthopedic surgeon was more than nine months.
An estimated 4 million of Canada's 33 million people don't have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association. ]
Plenty of problems - more than mm and his fathead lib hipster liars will ever even imagine let alone admit.
"A Fraser study last y
June 22, 2007 - 21:56 ET by ckc1227"A Fraser study last year said the average wait for an orthopedic surgeon was more than nine months."
Yikes! To put this in perspective, my mom just had the staples removed from her knee replacement surgery this week. Her wait time between scheduling and surgery? 10 days. Yes, our system here in the US is obviously broken and a complete failure.
Mandrake:Canada's broken Heal
June 22, 2007 - 22:00 ET by stratmanMandrake:
Canada's broken Health Care
http://onthefencefilms.com/video/brainsurgery.html
http://onthefencefilms.com/video/twowomen.html
http://onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/
(Thanks to ZoneDaiatlas for the links)
Plenty of examples of crappy health care delivery in Canada straight from the patients' own mouths.
Hip and knee replacement, joint ligament repair, masses, and strokes are all very common occurences in the US. Waiting months for consultations and diagnostic imaging let alone years definative treatment would be unacceptable culturally and dangerous medically - people are dying on Canada's waiting lists. Just don't get really sick or need surgery and you'll most likely be ok.
If socialized medicine becomes the sine qua non of American medicine, the malpractice attorneys will drool over the opportunities created for (more) wealth.
Wow, I never expected such a
June 22, 2007 - 22:26 ET by mandrakeWow, I never expected such a strong reaction. All I tried to say was that my personal experience as a lifetime Toronto residence doesn't match what is being written. Maybe I've just been lucky. I've raised three children here and never had any problems with the health care.
Once, many years ago my youngest ran headlong into wall. I had to hold her forehead closed with fingers while we drove to the hospital. The wait time was not long.
I'm sure the truth lies somew
June 22, 2007 - 23:10 ET by balboaI'm sure the truth lies somewhere between the Michael Moore version and the conservative characterization.
"I'm sure the truth lies
June 23, 2007 - 02:23 ET by stratman"I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between the Michael Moore version and the conservative characterization."
Not very helpful balboa. Sometimes an answer is worse than no answer at all.
The Canadian health care system appears to work reasonably well as long as the the patient is reasonably healthy. Just like the American health care system. Emergency care appears to be reasonably appropriate in both countries as well.
The place where the two systems diverge dramatically is when certain diagnostic tests and procedural treatments are required, then the American system truely shines with excellent and fast access. An important point to remember is that when an issue is not taken care of promptly, other parts of the body can be adversly affected. For instance if you need a knee or hip transplant but have to wait months or years for the procedure, one may become overweight from inactivity, develop or worsen blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease and be less physically fit at the time of surgery thereby increasing one's risk for a bad outcome. Additionally, body mechanics are changed due to the pain and altered joint angulation such that different stresses are placed on the oppposite "good" side which can result in pain and early wearing out of joints on the "good" side. I think the example of cataracts causing functional blindness in one of the links I listed is a "no-brainer" as to how the long wait for repair would debilitate one's life significantly. A mass in the brain or breast could have deadly results if diagnosis and treat are not begun rapidly for certain fast growing cancers. Waiting several weeks or months for an MRI and biopsy or surgery, I hope you can understand how this would be detrimental to one's health and longevity. But, it does cut down on costs.
In my area of the USA, hip or knee replacement and cataract surgery are typically scheduled any where from next day to two weeks out. The patient's life returns to normal quicker and their health is preserved from worsening that much more as well.
In Canada, if you don't need the system much outside of primary care medicine then it works well. Unfortunately, many millions in the USA will need diagnostic, sub-specialty and surgical care of which the Canadian system has difficulty in delivering in a speedy fashion.
A doctor once told me that health care can be Fast, Cheap and Good, but you can only have two at one time. He could not have been more correct.
Which two do you prefer for yourself, wife, your children and parents?
The American system tries to mediate between these three choices to keep cost down, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not. Being that it is America, a country with a strong Calvinistic work philosophy, the acceptance of an exclusive national socialized health care system like Canada's is unlikely once the details of access and cost are publicized unless we can resolve the issues of self-entitlement mentality and "robin hood" taxation scenarios.
One thing I can guarantee you, without competitive health care markets (including research and development) and good compensation for physicians, we will all settle for decreased innovation and a dumbed down "provider" base (the smartest and best students choosing other professions because of the lowered earning potential and intimidating student debt incurred).
Make your two picks: Fast, Cheap, Good.
Hey Sport....Cool it with cal
June 22, 2007 - 23:08 ET by bigtimerHey Sport....
Cool it with calling mandrake an idiot.
You idiot.
Geesh...mandrake has always been here to debate with his perspective...it might not hurt you to listen just once in awhile.
Golly Miss Molly take it easy for once...would ya' please....
Bigtimer, thanks!!! I was goi
June 22, 2007 - 23:22 ET by mandrakeBigtimer, thanks!!! I was going to say something to Sport but I thought it might sound petulant..and we can't have that around here now can we :-)
Mandrake--specific examples a
June 22, 2007 - 21:57 ET by ncstevemMandrake--specific examples aren't necessary although I'm sure there numerous examples.
ANY type of government interference in the market creates inefficiencies. The greater the government involvement, the greater the inefficiencies. Someone your age should know that this is economics 101--otherwise called supply and demand.
A good example is when the communist government took over agriculture in the Ukraine in the 1930's. The Ukraine grew enough grain to feed most of Russia. It wasn't long before the USSR had to begin importing grain to feed it's people.
I ask you to cite one example where government involvement in health care has created a better health care system. Over time, the system breaks down. Canada and all of western Europe is experiencing this right now. I give your government run health care another 20 years max. before the private health care clinics that are already popping up all over Canada usurp the government run system.
"Professing themselves t
June 22, 2007 - 21:13 ET by fossten"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
Romans 1:22
Michael Moore and 9/11 cons
June 22, 2007 - 23:02 ET by CatHerderMichael Moore and 9/11 conspiracy theorists: Same sh*t, different pile. They offer a mountain of cherry-picked and misinterpreted facts that look compelling in isolation, but fall apart when you take a look around.
Like Mandrake I live in Canad
June 23, 2007 - 00:45 ET by SnowWhiteLike Mandrake I live in Canada (right on the U.S. border) and my family personally has never had any problems with our health care system. There may be private clinics popping up all over but there are also many more free clinics. I can't say what will be in 20 years, but I certainly can't complain at the moment and we have had to use the system a lot over the years. That's not to say I like Michael Moore. I do not. He reminds me of the line from the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life', "In all the vast configuration of things, he's just a scurvy little, ummm "big hairy ugly", spider". Maybe he'll eat himself into a blimp and float away into the wild blue yonder. : + ) Wishful thinking.
Hi Snow W...I live basically
June 23, 2007 - 00:52 ET by bigtimerHi Snow W...
I live basically about 30 miles from the border....I have known a lot of Canandians over the years....they share the same sentiment as you and Mandrake.
I imagine we have the msm and different areas and populations that can tell different stories just like anywhere here or Canada....we too have Free Clinics on both sides of me here in the US....Mt. and Id. so you know it is how we see things from our own perspectives.
Nobody that I know of including myself does not take this issue seriously.
bigtimer - As you noted, the
June 23, 2007 - 01:07 ET by Unsanebigtimer - As you noted, the story can change depending on whatever part of Canada one is at. I am wondering if in your case the reason all is good with the Canadians you run across is that they are Albertans - from the wealthiest province on Canada due to the oil.
Alberta is so well off that they do not carry any provincial debt - the only province I am aware of that does so - and in fact, their provincial legislature not long ago issued refund checks on taxes paid to them.
I would be willing to bet that things would be different if, say, the Maritimes were brought into the picture, since they have been chronically economically depressed since the collapse of the Grand Banks fishing industry in the early 1990s.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Hi BTAmen to that. We have
June 23, 2007 - 12:58 ET by SnowWhiteHi BT
Amen to that. We have been very blessed so far I think with the system we have and I pray it continues but who knows what tomorrow will bring. One problem we've had here is keeping docs from crossing the border for better pay. Can't blame them I guess. I don't agree with drs. & nurses striking though. That ticks me off.
God bless!
"docs crossing the border for better pay"
June 23, 2007 - 13:01 ET by RJ"docs crossing the border for better pay"
Nurses, too....
Never forget the sole reason
June 23, 2007 - 01:02 ET by UnsaneNever forget the sole reason your government can afford to lavish that freebie on you is a simple one: PM Harper has the White House in his Rolodex in case anything happens to Canada. If Canada actually provided for its own defense - which is a hard thing to do considering the size of Canada versus its population - that little goodie would be more painful than it already is.
Not to mention that Canadians are C$7200 poorer than their American conuterparts; something I would imagine would not be the case if it weren't for the dead hand of the Crown interfering with everything, to merely include health care.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Unsane, so you think we can't
June 23, 2007 - 01:40 ET by mandrakeUnsane, so you think we can't defend ourselves? We all have cottages in the backwoods that only we know to get to...and we have guns there!!!
Also don't forget about the platoons of giant beavers....you don't want to mess with them now do you ?
There's a rainbow in Toronto
June 23, 2007 - 01:51 ET by Carl Kolchak"Also don't forget about the platoons of giant beavers"
There's also lots of jobs in Toronto. I don't know if you are a "SCTV" fan being from Canada or not, but a funny skit was when John Candy and Joe Flaherty went to Toronto because there were lots of jobs in Toronto.
"There's a rainbow in Toronto where the maritimers are bold. They always get a potful--but they never get a pot of gold"
Well, I confess that an amphi
June 23, 2007 - 01:54 ET by UnsaneWell, I confess that an amphibious landing at Churchill, Manitoba might not be so wise, what with all those polar bears out and about...
:-)
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
mandrakeThat's hilarious!I ha
June 23, 2007 - 14:30 ET by SnowWhitemandrake
That's hilarious!
I have to go and feed the platoon of giant possums that live in our yard somewhere. Love those critters!
Which Province Snow Whi
June 23, 2007 - 01:06 ET by shawn228Which Province Snow White?
AS i posted on a other forum
June 23, 2007 - 09:54 ET by TheProfAS i posted on a other forum regarding this subject,Moore's film is properly named, as it is really "Sicko". If you want to see the real truth about Cuba's health service please go to www.therealcuba.com and click on the link to "free healthcare ?". You will see what the cubans get with their free medical care. In addition I lived in Britain twice. I had a cancerous turmor in my back, and I was told that I had to wait 4-6 months for an operation. So I paid for it myself and I was able to get the operation in a private hospital. I lived in Spain for 9 years and I had to pay for all my medical treatment myself as I wouldn't wait 8-9 hours just to see the doctor.
shawnSorry I couldn't stay up
June 23, 2007 - 12:48 ET by SnowWhiteshawn
Sorry I couldn't stay up later to answer. I'm in Ontario. My husband has had health problems off and on for as long as I've known him. He's been in at least 5 different hospitals and had a variety of specialists. Sometimes you get a doc who's bedside manner could be better, but you do have a choice to go to someone else. We have friends and relatives on both sides of the border and have never heard of anyone here or in the U.S. having a medical system horror story to tell. Thank God for that. Michael Moore should go live in Cuba if he thinks it's so great. The guy is just a big loser. Or should I say 'hoser'. :+)
SnowWhiteAre your a Senat
June 23, 2007 - 13:08 ET by shawn228SnowWhite
Are you a Senator or Maple Leaf fan? I'm sorry about the health problems with your husband and I'm glad he has found the care he has needed. . I know of a few Canadians which had to wait a little longer for their surguries but I do not know anyone that actually died because of it. I have a few American friends that have had to file bankrupsty because of medical bills. One had medical coverage but her coverage only covered a portion of the emergancy surgury they needed. The other did not have medical coverage and was the passenger of the car that was a victim of a hit and run accident and since there was nobody to sue, he is has to pay through the nose for the rest of his life.
There are many great things about the USA Snow White like less taxes and more doctors because they get paid better than Canada, but I do not agree our medical system as one of them. Unsane loves to point out that because Canada does not spend on military defense and have to rely on the USA. This is true, i am not disagreeing with him, but it is a two way street. The USA also depends on Canada to help supply them with oil and electricity and is their largest trade partner.
Unsane loves to point out that Americans are on average 7200 richer than Canadians, I bet the ones have had to sell their home, car and lose their dignity over medical bills would gladly give their left arm + that 7200 for what Canadians have. Canada does not sound like Country going nowhere like he claims, would you agree with him Snow White?:)
Thanks shawn. I give God mo
June 23, 2007 - 13:35 ET by SnowWhiteThanks shawn. I give God most of the credit for my husband still being alive, but ovbiously doctors deserve credit too. No I don't see Canada as a "country going nowhere" at all. I love Canada and I love that we are neighbours with the U.S. for lots of reasons. I'm not a hockey fan but my youngest son is, and some of my American relatives are too. I'n not sure which team my son roots for, there are so many teams now. I don't drink beer either LOL Our present Prime Minister is trying to beef up our military much to the chagrin of the libs & left-wingers here. We currently have soldiers fighting (& dying) in Afghanistan. I am so proud of them all! We are a country rich is natural resources and I think we have contributed much to the world, such as medicines, music, comedy, the space program and lets not forget the telephone.lol There are plenty of wealthy Canadians too. I wish I was one of them lol
Stephen Harper is very
June 23, 2007 - 17:16 ET by shawn228Stephen Harper is very similar to Bush in the sense that he is a conservative with minority control in the governments. I heard if an election was held today, he would lose that minority control.
To whom would he lose that mi
June 24, 2007 - 23:07 ET by UnsaneTo whom would he lose that minority government to? The Liberals? Lots of rats are leaving the sinking ship, wondering if they chose the right leader in Stephane Dion.
Or, the NDP? Right. I don't see them getting much stronger on the national scene anytime soon, in spite of their control of such provinces as Manitoba.
How about the BQ? Well, they don't run candidates outside Quebec.
If Stephen Harper plays his cards right, he could get a majority government of his own. I suspect that an election is 9-12 months away. Things could get interesting. I have my eyes and ears on Canada...but then, I have my eyes and ears on most every country in the world...or at least constantly strive to.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
SnowWhite, Canada's contribut
June 24, 2007 - 23:11 ET by UnsaneSnowWhite, Canada's contributions to the space program are...Canadarm, and a really awesome sonmg by Rush called "Countdown".
America's are...well, putting a man on the moon (why we aren't doing that thousands of times over is beyond me), untethered spacewalks, and reusable spacecraft. (Canada pissed away its avaition industry for the most part in the 1960s, if one believes the Canadian Museum of Aviation in Ottawa.) Just my 1/50th of a loonie.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
shawn228 just CANNOT tolerate
June 24, 2007 - 20:45 ET by Unsaneshawn228 just CANNOT tolerate people who take risks or gamble of their own freewill. One, he MUST have 100% complete, total, micromanaging government control or every aspect of life, whether people want them or not. The idea that the future is risky and many things can go wrong (while amazingly many things can go RIGHT) is horrifying to him; therefore, the government MUST CONTROL EVERYTHING. Two, he obviously has no problem at all with stealing from others. He sees no problem with picking my pockets in order to pay for HIS doctor. Three, he, SCREAMS, BITCHES, WHINES and throws a tantrum because sometimes things happen where (gulp!) people fall on hard times or file for bankruptcy. But, rather than help them via his own charitible acts, he wants to turn the government into a big United Way, a Very Big Nanny, so that he can say "See! I do my civic duty!!! I pay my taxes!!!!"
The people who I know who have filed for bankruptcy due to medical emergencies (or other problems) all have one thing in common: lack of self-discipline and self-control. They refuse to manage their money and do the things to keep them out of trouble...but rather than have such people face consequences, shawn228 wants to coddle them as much as possible and wants government to cater to the lowest common denominator.
Never mind that those approaches aren't turning out too well for Canada or Western Europe. To hear shawn228 talk, Canada is Shangri-La, the Promised Land, the nation everyone wants to be, the nation whose citizens are SO HAPPY in their mediocrity. Well, no. I don't see too many other nations working overtime to socialize vast tracts of their economy as Canada has. (I also don't see shawn228 rushing to Canada as fast as he can, as I imagine he would, as he sees it as the Promised Land.) Two of the world's fastest rising economies both tried socialist approaches and both have succeeded as of late, not by emulating Canada, but rather, emulating the United States and ditching state control of the economy as fast as it can. Coincidence? When we talk about fast rising economies with bright futures, we talk about China, Korea, India, assorted nations of southeast Asia...not Canada, not Western Europe.
"The USA also depends on Canada to supply them with oil and electricity and is their largest trading partner" and Canada needs the United States MUCH MORE than the United States needs them, economically AND militarily.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Unsane
June 24, 2007 - 23:37 ET by shawn228Unsane, well at least this post is not 20 paragraphs long, you are getting better. I never said Canada is Shangri-la. They have their problems too, I have just said repeatedly that I do not believe they are a country going nowhere just because they do not have military might.
I don't know about you but I did not live in USA, I would rather live in Canada than India, Korea or China. You make it sound like all people that lose everything over medical bills were undisaplined. Are you saying people that lose their medical coverage and are diagnosed with a serious disease or a car accident does not happen?
How about a new college grad that owes a huge student loans and is waiting to go out in the workforce? He gets hit by a hit and run driver before he gets a job and medical coverage? Don't tell me I am saying What if" too often, because things like this happen everyday. Not all people file for bankrupsy because they are irreponsible, it can also has to do with circumstances.
"I would rather live in
June 25, 2007 - 01:14 ET by Unsane"I would rather live in Canada than India, Korea or China." As you look to the government coddle and pamper you and fill your every need, unlike those in India, Korea or China, that doesn't surprise me. Those three countries will have larger economies than Canada in 50 years, if not considerably sooner. In the case of India, their ditching socialistic government-directed development went a LONG way towards that end. China...well... we ALL know their story. If government control of as much of life as possible, and government nannying of everyone was so effective, I wonder why The Great Leap Forward didn't work out for the Chinese?
"Are you saying that people that lose their medical insurance...does not happen?" Listen, busybody, you REALLY need to worry more about your own damn life instead of your neighbors...but as I have explained before, I lost medical insurance some years ago, and PLANNED for the eventuality by throwing money in a strange thing called a "savings account". I got burned towards the end (when I was about to be switched to another policy) when I hurt my back and had to dip into those savings...but I handled that ON MY OWN. I CANNOT UNDERSTAND why you or anyone else cannot handle your own affairs as I did without running screaming to The Big Nanny in Washington with your empty nursing bottles.
I already know what you are going to say "But but but Unsane, what if...um um um you got in a bad car accident? Or had cancer? If that would havge happened to you, Unsane, you'd be homeless now. See, YOU NEED A NANNY!!! Look at Canada!!! They pay insanely high taxes, are NOT dynamic, and are going nowhere, BUT THEY ARE SO HAPPY!!! Why? Because the government will take care of EVERYTHING for them? Why be part of a dynamic society that is going somewhere when you can have a government that babies you and makes sure you are HAPPY???"
Because, shawn228, unlike you I don't expect anyone to pay for my decisions or mistakes. Mistakes and setbacks and unlucky events are part of LIFE. I don't want, or need, to live coddled in a henhouse my whole life. To live life means I Have To Take Risks, including my having cancer and having to start over after I beat the illness, or getting in my car to drive to work where undoubtedly accidents CAN and DO happen (especially with the nutcases plying the streets of Houston.)
You hate the idea of...anything...not being strictly controlled by the government, because you cringe with fear of the future. I, however, embrace the future, even if the last year was particularly crappy and included a phase where if I got sick (I didn't [But but but but Unsane!!! What if you were diagnosed with...] it came out of my own pocket with family members to back me up. Life can only get better. What you simply cannot grasp is that having a big Nanny State that lavishes goodie after goodie after goodie on its population stunts its growth to the point it is Going Nowhere. Sure, some Canadians and Europeans have great ideas for improving life, products and technology. But where is there incentive to do so when all of their profits and earnings from their ideas are stolen by the shawn228s of the world on a regular basis?
Oh, and as for this crack: "well at least your post isn't 20 paragraphs long, you're getting better": if that is your only line of criticism about that particular post, you have long since lost this argument.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
My my Unsane. Did you g
June 25, 2007 - 12:05 ET by shawn228My my Unsane. Did you get up on the wrong side of bed this morning? Yeesh, I just pointed out if you explain your POV to me, the text does not have to be as long as "The Book of John" Sorry I hurt your feelings:)
There are many millionaires and billionaires in Canada Unsane. Did you know the price for the average price in Vancouver BC and around the lower mainland is $373,685. You would be lucky to get a 2 bedroom condo with that price. The home buying market is red hot right now. That means people actually must have some take home pay after paying their taxes would it not?
Point being, there are many people in Canada that have money and healthcare. You can have you cake and eat it too. One more time Unsane, I am not saying Canada is Utopia, it is just not a country going nowhere. Maybe you will grasp it this time.
Funny shawn! And thanks!We
June 25, 2007 - 13:30 ET by SnowWhiteFunny shawn! And thanks!
We have friends in Vancouver who are millionaires. And some poorer friends as well. The cost of living there is pretty high but even our 'relatively poor' friends out there are surviving ...without any help from the ''nanny state". Except for health care of course. Maybe some day someone will come up with the perfect plan. Until then I feel blessed to be where I am.
Cheers everyone. Got work to do.
UnsaneCalm down sweetheart be
June 25, 2007 - 13:19 ET by SnowWhiteUnsane
Calm down sweetheart before ya blow a gasket. I agree with a couple of your points, but I don't see Canada as a big "nanny state", just because we have a form of health coverage. Canada was voted as the #1 country to live in for 2 years in a row. (2004 & 2005 I think) I don't think there's any country in the world where everything is perfect, but Canada & the U.S. are both the best countries in the world in which to live IMO I hope you are correct about Stephen Harper winning with a majority in the next fedreral election. From letters in our local newspaper there seem to be more folks in favour of him than the liberals or NDP or that pesky Green party. God help us! If my late father was still alive he could give you a much longer list of examples of what Canada has contributed to the world etc. He lived and worked in the U.S. for many years and knew it's history and politics as well. I learned a lot from him. He'd probably be freaking out if could see what's going on in the world today. God help us all!
Not the right solution? Are
June 23, 2007 - 23:27 ET by Space CowboyNot the right solution? Are you saying that the one we have now is working?
According the The World Health Organization, the U.S. health care system ranks 37th in the world - only TWO RANKINGS above Cuba, one of the poorest countries in the world, for Christ's sake! http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
So, love MM or hate him, he's done us a service by putting this issue front and center. The U.S. spends per capita more than any other industrial nation on health care - more than DOUBLE the next closest country (Switzerland) - AND all of the other industrial countries have universal coverage (unless you count South Africa which doesn't have universal coverage - if you want to call them an industrial nation). Yet, we still rank at the bottom of the heap in a broad array of measures.
And, we already have a system that is roughly 50% "socialist medicine". It's called Medicare and is one of the most efficient delivery systems in terms of bureaucratic costs in the world- a fraction of the operating cost of HMO's that are paying gold-plated salaries to CEOs. We got problems right here in River City and it starts with H and it ends with O. I'm talking about HMO's. No, not homo sexuals, HMO's, people.
So, lock and load with your favorite facts, little buddies, the fight is on. And, it's long past due.
only TWO RANKINGS above Cub
June 23, 2007 - 23:46 ET by Free Stinkeronly TWO RANKINGS above Cuba, one of the poorest countries in the world
Right . . . we're *this* close to Cuba in Healthcare.
Have you ever treated aspirin like it was gold here in the US?
From the site: WHO broke ne
June 24, 2007 - 00:00 ET by botgFrom the site:
WHO broke new methodological ground, employing a technique not previously used for health systems. It compares each country’s system to what the experts estimate to be the upper limit of what can be done with the level of resources available in that country.
Seems that since Cuba isn't expected to do crap (due no doubt to political oppression) when they do crap it's okay; and when the US does well but is expected to give all things free they only get two steps above Cuba. Let's see the rating on an even field without the subjective bull
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
Well, if you don’t like the
June 24, 2007 - 16:02 ET by Space CowboyWell, if you don’t like the comparison to Cuba, here’s how the U.S. ranks against comparable major, industrialized, democratically-run countries:
1 France
2 Italy7 Spain
10 Japan
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland25 Germany
37 United States of Americabased on the same subjective
June 24, 2007 - 16:05 ET by botgbased on the same subjective bias highlighted above
if it isn't total socialist nanny state health care you get demerits.
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
It is clear from this listing
June 24, 2007 - 21:06 ET by UnsaneIt is clear from this listing that Space Cowboy is positively enraged that the United States isn't shooting for total world mediocrity the way other countries he admires are.
1) France. 50% of their GDP belongs to the government. 75% of their 15-25 year olds want to work for the government because it is a job for life. People there pay 50%+ of their income to the government. As I recall, their unemployment rate hasn't gone below much below 9% in 25 years. Going Nowhere.
2) Italy. Their former PM loves their health care system so much he traveled to Cleveland for treatment of heart problems. Their Nanny State, combined with a string Euro which is devastating their economy as their jobs flock to China, is a dead weight on their economy, and their population is imploding. Going Nowhere.
7) Spain. The one thing fueling their economy is a unsustainable housing boom. They'll be able to fund their Nanny State from that...for now. Fortunately tourists like to go there, so that's a plus for their economy. Going Nowhere.
10) Japan. Defense provided by the United States. Their population is imploding. Not quite Going Nowhere status, BUT the fact remains that since the JASDF doesn't eat up so much of the budget, they can afford the Nanny State. (But then, don't kid yourself: Space Cowboy is ENRAGED that we even HAVE a military.)
17) Netherlands. Going Nowhere.
18) UK. Doing everything in their power to join Unsane's Going Nowhere club.
19) Ireland. Never Went Anywhere, and Going Nowhere.
20) Switzerland. Going Nowhere.
25) Germany. I would have hope for this country, had they allowed unfettered free capitalism in their Eastern States. But, since they spread their Nanny State mentality eastward, they ruined their only chance. Their population fo spoiled adult children even threw a fit over (horrors!) being forced to pay higher prices for SPA VISITS.
And their health care is NOT universal. If you make 48,000 euros or more the government tells you to get your own.
Going Nowhere.
37) The United States, the country that, if you bother looking at the list of Nobel Prize winners, encourages innovative research and study into a myriad of medical problems. As much as Space Cowboy wants them to, the doctors doing all of this, and advancing the frontiers of medical science, don't work for free.
The ONE country on this list being emulated in more places around the world, and the ONE place more immigrants aspire to go to. I wonder why?
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
I don't think there's any dou
June 24, 2007 - 21:15 ET by balboaI don't think there's any doubt we have the most talented surgeons, or the greatest living standards in general, but that doesn't mean the health care "system" couldn't stand some work, does it?
Should that work be towards
June 24, 2007 - 21:21 ET by sarcasmoShould that work be towards capitalism, or even-more towards socialism than our medical system already has become? One area where Moore's really winning the propaganda-battle is that this largely centrally controlled system is somehow referenced as "capitalism," but it resembles actual capitalism about as much as the "deregulation" Enron purchased from corrupt Democrats and Republicans in California resembled actual deregulation. What should honest capitalists like me do in response to this scam-artist, Bal??
JMR
I don't know what you should
June 24, 2007 - 21:25 ET by balboaI don't know what you should do about Moore, but it seems to me that the greatest country on earth should have the finest health care system.
Agreed, but should we go mo
June 24, 2007 - 21:31 ET by sarcasmoAgreed, but should we go more towards capitalism to get that back, or more towards socialism despite its obvious failures -- even in the countries Moore touts with such vigor? And do you see how people like me, who can be painfully honest about stuff, would dislike Moore's tactics? Did you hear what he did with the South Park guys in his other film?? Can you understand why, even without seeing the latest film yet, I don't trust the agenda of the film and how I know it has an agenda for more government control over individuals? How come we don't see doctors setting out on their own with today's equivalent of a Model T and a black bag and making house calls? The demise of the house call, actually, says it all for me about what's happened to the USA's medical system. Why is it a good thing for the socialists and for the insurance companies currently running things for the house call to be extinct, anyway??
JMR
Have you seen the listing of
June 24, 2007 - 21:35 ET by UnsaneHave you seen the listing of recipients of Nobel Prize winners for medicine?
And who does the world call on whenever it needs health care? The United States. Silvio Berlusconi didn't stick around in Italy (for the third freakin time)...he went to Cleveland for his heart problems. I wonder why if things suck here so much, balboa?
And think of the innovations and genius that is constantly mined in this nation. In spite of the lack of a Nanny State, we have people like Robert Jarvik inventing things like the artificial heart.
Yeah, our health care system really sucks...
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Didn't say it "sucks," and I
June 24, 2007 - 21:46 ET by balboaDidn't say it "sucks," and I already said we have some of the greatest talent and technology in the world.
I agree with your earlier tweaks.
Balboa, I realize that I get
June 24, 2007 - 23:02 ET by UnsaneBalboa, I realize that I get along with you better than most Leftists here, but I was, in a roundabout way, questioning your statement that "we should have the finest health care in the world", as if we already don't. We DO, and there ARE issues with it, as there are with ANYTHING else, no question. But I don't believe in killing flies with cannonballs, so to speak.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
What is that poor ranking bas
June 24, 2007 - 23:05 ET by balboaWhat is that poor ranking based on? I honestly don't know. Is it based on the costs associated with healthcare?
But totally agree with the cannonballs analogy.
From the site: WHO broke ne
June 24, 2007 - 23:10 ET by botgFrom the site:
WHO broke new methodological ground, employing a technique not previously used for health systems. It compares each country’s system to what the experts estimate to be the upper limit of what can be done with the level of resources available in that country.
This is part of their criteria it's on the site
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
There ain't nothing running s
June 24, 2007 - 21:21 ET by botgThere ain't nothing running so badly that a govt. program can't ruin entirely
Just look at the public schools half the lernin for twice the money
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
Nowhere did I say it was perf
June 24, 2007 - 21:28 ET by UnsaneNowhere did I say it was perfect. It can use some tweaks. Like these:
1) Privatize Medicare and Medicaid. (Among the most boneheaded moves Bush made was the prescription drug giveaway for people who just happened to reach the age of 65. I was fuming over that - but the young just refuse to vote. Political invisibility equals bad results.)
2) Put caps on malpractice settlements. Because people turn to to lawyers as giddily as they turn to lottery tickets, in both cases hoping for a big payday, that forces up malpractice insurance for ALL doctors, even extremely competent ones. Do you think those increased premiums are just absorbed by doctors out of the kindness of their hearts? Um, no, because, for some shocking reason, doctors need to eat. As do those who work for pharmaceutical firms and other corporations dedicated to advancing the frontiers of medical science.
But socializing the system is a proven failure. The people who like it are those who are upset that the United States as a whole doesn't look to be as mediocre as they themselves are. Amazingly, the same people who bitch constantly about the debt (the board's Leftists, especially Space Cowboy and shawn228) CANNOT WAIT for the United States to just simply nationalize 15% of the nation's economy, and add that burden to the federal budget. (Not long ago, IL looked at giving away health care and ran away screaming once they saw what it would do to their stae budget.)
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
Unsane: re: the Medicare Rx p
June 24, 2007 - 22:01 ET by QueenMumUnsane: re: the Medicare Rx program
I think it incorrect to call it a giveway, since it's part of a program that is payed for by people who have payedd into it. I realize that the expenditures are probably over and above the money payed in at this point in time. And everyone on Medicare pays a monthly premium. I realize that it's a paltry sum. But it's not free.
I will admit that I need to do further research re: the finer points of the program. But I believe that the prescriptions are not free to all. In fact, even those with the lowest incomes have a co-pay and are restricted by formulary guidelines as far as to what drugs the program will pay for. I'm certain about this particular aspect because my husband has family members who use the program.
I agree with your second point.
We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. - Queen Victoria
"...since it's part of a
June 24, 2007 - 23:19 ET by Unsane"...since it's part of a program that is payed for by people who paid into it." Thank you for reminding me once again why I stuff my IRA as much as possible every year. It is because of giveaways...sorry, heavily subsidized programs such as these...that we shall plunge deeper into debt as the demograhpics reveal an aging country with fewer taxpayers. I stuff the IRA to the max based on the premise that
1) I will never see a dime of Social Security when I retire
2) Nor will I see a single government provided/subsidized pill.
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!
tort reform
June 24, 2007 - 21:37 ET by Pragmatic-ManImplement tort reform. Until then, the desire for students to enroll in med school will continue to erode. Implement socialized medicine and fix the surgeon's salaries, and there goes the neighborhood!
Ever seen the listing of Nobe
June 24, 2007 - 20:51 ET by UnsaneEver seen the listing of Nobel Prize winners for medicine, space? None are Cuban. The last time a Frenchman won was 1980. Yeah, you are right, our medical system is SO HORRIBLE. Silvio Berlusconi would totally agree with you; Italy's system is far superior. He believes in Italy's health care system so much that he went to that northern Italian metropolis called Cleveland for his heart ailments.
One thing I am curious about is why you must have the United States kill the goose that lays the golden eggs for 15% of the economy. Or why any Leftist does. Not all of us ALWAYS needs the doc.
ALL of us NEED food. So, why aren't you as adamant that we have a universal food system, where ALL groceries, no matter what, are 100% free?
MAKE WAY FOR THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS!!! THE 1999, 2003, 2005, AND 2007 NBA CHAMPIONS!!!!